Can anyone take a good photograph?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Tom Hudson, Dec 7, 2004.

  1. Tom Hudson

    Jan Böhme Guest

    Indeed? Would you care to elaborate a bit more on this bold statement,
    with special attention paid to his fugues?

    Jan Böhme
    Korrekta personuppgifter är att betrakta som journalistik.
    Felaktigheter utgör naturligtvis skönlitteratur.
    Jan Böhme, Jan 1, 2005
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  2. Tom Hudson

    Jim Redelfs Guest

    I'd be interested in that, myself.

    When it comes to baroque, I though ole J.S. MADE the rules!

    Jim Redelfs, Jan 2, 2005
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  3. Tom Hudson

    Tony Guest

    Tony, Jan 2, 2005
  4. Tom Hudson

    Tony Guest

    No I would not care to as there are several good books and essays that go
    into fugal structure by people like Walter Piston, Arnold Schonberg and Paul
    Hindemith. It is quite impossible to argue music in a text only forum
    anyway - as you well know. Sort of like asking what are the differences
    between these two photographs without showing the photographs. Pointless and
    Besides, if you are unaware of any developments Bach made to the fugue or
    and differences between his fugues and those of, say Pachebel, Buxtehude, or
    even Beethoven, you are tone deaf.
    By following the rules we would have had 1000 years of chant -- ooops!
    Pardon me - There would not even have been chant which was also very
    revolutionary at one time - old Greg was the Jelly Roll Morton of his day.
    The people who follow the rules are the quickly forgotten hacks - like
    Johann's children, who were much more popular while they were alive than
    their father had ever been - but who never produced between them a single
    piece of work to compare with the old man's minor works, let alone the great

    home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
    The Improved Links Pages are at
    A sample chapter from "Haight-Ashbury" is at
    Tony, Jan 2, 2005
  5. He did not break all rules. He broke some and made some new ones.
    But - he still used lots of rules for making music - the scale,
    the rythm, the intonation, the .... To have a powerful ground
    to start with you must use rules. Without rules you cannot
    really accomplish anything.

    Roland Karlsson, Jan 2, 2005
  6. Tom Hudson

    Jan Böhme Guest

    Umm. But what I wanted to know was whether any of these works stated
    that the rules by which J.S Bach abided differed from, say, those of
    Dietrich Buxtehude, and, if so, how.
    Might be rather academic. Not necessarily pointless, though. But I
    agree that arguing about music i pure text presumes a fair amount of
    common knowledge of the music that is discussed.
    Ah, but "artistic development" does not equal "breaking rules"! You
    argue as if "rules" were the only artistic limitation whatsoever. This
    is simply not true. Take drawings by children - or, for that matter,
    beginner' snapshots by children, to try to be at least tangentially
    on-topic. Most of them are so bad that only a proud parent or
    grandparent can see any value in them whatsoever, and to ever qualfy
    them as "art" would be an almost criminal overstatement. Still, it is
    not because of excessive obeisance to rules that these pictures are
    bad - indeed, the kids, in blissful ignorance, are unaware of such
    limitations. They are simply bad because their creators can't do any
    better, and that is all there is to it. The limitations are inside the
    artist, not in the set of rules that they follow.

    Defined so broadly, the concept of "rules" lose all meaning. Take the
    sonnet, for instance! It has developed considerably since Petrarch's
    days, but everyone still uses either Petrarch's rules, or
    Shakesperare's, if they write sonnets at all.
    Well, the Bach children were more of rule innovators than their
    father. Their only problem was that they, like almost all artistic
    innovators, innovated along the same lines as most other innovating
    people of their times. (A litle bit like how one could tell the
    non-conformists of Greenwich Village in the fifties and sixties. They
    all looked identical.) Truly original solitaires of musical innovation
    are very few indeed. Offhand I can mention only Carlo Gesualdo da
    Venosa, the Italian late 16th cenury prince-composer-poisoner who
    invented dissonant chords that took four hundred years to be
    reinvented. And even if his music is quite good, it is not as as good
    as that of Mozart or J.S. Bach. Yet it would be better than theirs, if
    all there was to artistic acheivement were originality and "breaking
    of rules".

    (Besides, there actually are a number of works of several the Bach
    sons that can compare with at least the minor works of their father.
    For instance, the basson concerto in B flat major by Johann Christian
    Bach is well worth the twenty-five minutes of attention it takes to
    listen to it.)
    Jan Böhme, Jan 3, 2005
  7. Tom Hudson

    Tony Guest

    Artistic development IS breaking rules - that's why there is development.
    As I said, without revolutionaries we would be lucky to have chant.
    The profs who told you that until the romantics came suffering into the
    world artists didn't break the rules, were quite full of crap - they use
    this very common hack excuse to hide their own mediocrity. If you do not
    push the envelope - you are not worth a listen, a look, or for that matter,
    even a teaching position. Unfortunately the arts are full of failures who
    teach -- poorly. The best teachers would be real artists - but they tend to
    be busy.
    My first academic music teacher was a PHD who taught music theory in a
    high school - that should have been a red flag right there but I was only 15
    at the time. He talked a good game for a while but when I asked him why, as
    a full fledged Doctor of Music, he had "appropriated" the melody he used for
    the school alma mater instead of writing his own tune, he said "Because I
    wanted a melody everyone would recognize" -- He didn't want a follow up but
    I persisted "Why then choose "Finlandia" for the melody, since no more than
    ten students out of 1500 knew it? He promptly decided I was a disruption to
    his class in music theory and should move on to a different elective. I
    quickly agreed - I had learned more music theory from one conversation with
    a jazz guitarist than he had managed to cover in five classes a day for
    three months.
    I won't quote you chapter and verse from those books. I haven't owned
    copies in close to 40 years. I don't need to quote chapter and verse anyway.
    If you think that Bach's revolutionary fugues were only mere "artistic
    development" you could also answer a 120 page essay with 8x10 glossy
    photographs, testimonials from Stravinsky, Gesualdo, and E. Power Biggs,
    plus a sound sheet and transcription, with "Oh yeah?"

    home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
    The Improved Links Pages are at
    A sample chapter from "Haight-Ashbury" is at
    Tony, Jan 4, 2005
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