BT Fault Charges if fault is on customer wiring

Discussion in 'Broadband' started by Martin Brown, Jan 12, 2015.

  1. Martin Brown

    Kraftee Guest

    If done _properly_ no, but in this era of 'productivity' (that is job
    completed) and blow the quality I wouldn't like to say.
    Kraftee, Jan 28, 2015
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  2. Martin Brown

    newshound Guest

    I've had a couple of faults caused by a neighbour's tree. Originally the
    line might have gone over the tree, but with the passage of time now
    passes through it. Both times BT have fixed without a quibble (after the
    usual faff of insisting they can't detect a fault).
    newshound, Jan 28, 2015
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  3. Martin Brown

    Kraftee Guest

    How could they charge you if it was (as you have stated) your neighbours

    As for the faffing around. The fault normally caused by trees is called a
    rectified loop which, bless their cottons socks, the front desk droids can't
    test for. In fact the easiest way to test for it is now verboten and that
    was the good old 9083 Multi Meter which of course has been 'removed' from
    all the engineers vans (notice the quotes).
    Kraftee, Jan 29, 2015
  4. Martin Brown

    Bill Ward Guest

    What is the situation if it is a wire leading into or within a block of
    flats? In our case wiring comes into the basement and wends it way
    throughout the building?
    Bill Ward, Oct 21, 2015
  5. Martin Brown

    Tim+ Guest

    I don't know if there is any discretion but some years ago we had a fault
    that turned out to be in our house. We weren't charged though as it turned
    out the the master box had been incorrectly sited & wired into the existing
    wiring resulting in it not being possible to isolate all the house wiring
    from the incoming line.

    I could be wrong but if you have no "master" junction box and as you're
    technically not supposed to meddle with the incoming line before the master
    box, I suspect any charges might be waived.

    Tim+, Oct 21, 2015
  6. Martin Brown

    NY Guest

    What is the situation if the drop wire comes in to a GPO lozenge box out of
    which two cables (apparently in parallel) go to BT sockets in different
    parts of the house, with both sockets being identical (neither has a
    removable faceplate) and therefore neither one can be deemed to be the
    master socket and neither one can be deemed to be an extension from it? This
    is how the wiring is arranged in our house.

    If it needed any work doing on it, would BT fit a master socket where the
    GPO lozenge was and then connect both remote sockets as extensions from
    NY, Oct 21, 2015
  7. I have been off twice this month - same each time. Dead phone, engaged on incoming with no call waiting, broadband still on and when reported BT could not set divert (i.e. exchange fault). Their online reporting is a mess too, somehow raising two faults from the same report - one saying it was in the exchange and the other that it was on our premises.


    It is whether the fault is downstream of the master socket.
    R. Mark Clayton, Oct 21, 2015
  8. Martin Brown

    Graham J Guest

    If you ask BT to bring an outdated intallation up to the modern standard
    they will bill you for it.

    However, if you have a fault and in order to identify where it is the
    Openreach technician has to fit a modern master socket as part of the
    identification work, you might not be billed. Probably this depends on
    the tea/biscuit soffered ...
    Graham J, Oct 21, 2015
  9. Martin Brown

    Tim+ Guest

    Indeed. No one is going to find out and even BT/Openreach aren't going to
    complain if it's done properly BUT, technically, you're not supposed to
    tamper with anything "upstream" of the master socket. If you don't have a
    master socket then BT/Openreach can't really charge you for a customer side
    fault if you don't have the means to isolate your internal phone wiring.

    In our case, they pointed out that the phone fault WAS with our internal
    wiring but as the master socket was incorrectly fitted, the would be no

    Tim+, Oct 21, 2015
  10. Martin Brown

    Phil W Lee Guest

    I've done something similar, also in two houses, and in both cases, I
    did it before the line was actually connected, and offered the cable
    I'd put in to the installer, who in both cases were most grateful for
    not having to run their own.
    My understanding is that once they accept it, I can no longer
    (officially, at least) touch it, and that anything that goes wrong
    upstream of the master socket are BTs problem, and subsequent events
    have shown that on the one occasion an attempt was made to levy a
    charge, that explanation was accepted by BT as well, and the charge

    They do not seem to have any record of where in the building master
    sockets were originally installed, or apparently even if one is
    installed at all - so if you are moving in, make any change before
    getting the line connected, and as long as you get it right, they'll
    just adopt the wiring that's there. If you've been there for a long
    time, but they haven't visited in many years, you can probably get
    away with doing the same on a live line, and the next engineer to
    visit will just accept the existing installation - as long as it
    works. If it doesn't, it's fair enough for them to charge you to fix
    Phil W Lee, Oct 24, 2015
  11. Martin Brown

    AnthonyL Guest

    I want to force the opposite. The property I'm moving into next week
    has an old BT socket at the far end of the bungalow, in a bedroom.
    Useless for either the phone or wireless. The vendor has never been
    on BT (he's on Virgin) and I'm paying £130 to get connected.

    How best do I ensure that the engineer does NOT use the pre-broadband
    wiring and puts in a sensibly placed master socket?
    AnthonyL, Oct 24, 2015
  12. Martin Brown

    Roland Perry Guest

    In message <>, at 12:21:03
    Does that old BT socket have any "old BT wiring" to it?

    If it's a new wiring job (from the pole or where-ever) it shouldn't be
    too hard to get the new socket installed in a place that's mutually
    convenient for both you and BT.
    Roland Perry, Oct 24, 2015
  13. I'd just rip out (some of) the old wiring
    Tony van der Hoff, Oct 24, 2015
  14. Martin Brown

    Phil W Lee Guest

    (AnthonyL) considered Sat, 24 Oct 2015 12:21:03
    GMT the perfect time to write:
    Disconnect the wiring back to the first connection point inside the
    house, if there is one other than the socket. If the wiring is
    continuous from outside all the way to a bedroom socket I'd be very
    surprised, but I suppose it's not impossible.

    You can take out as much of the existing wiring as you like, if it is
    not currently connected to anything run by BT and hasn't been for some
    considerable time, so leave just enough inside the house for the
    engineer to be able to mount a junction box, then tell him where you
    want the new master socket installation to be.

    I can't remember exactly, but istr the standard installation cost
    includes siting the master socket wherever you want within 30m of the
    point of entry, unless it involves unusually difficult or hazardous
    cable routing (so drilling through normal internal walls or doorframes
    and running along the skirting isn't a problem, but drilling the 3ft
    thick stone internal walls in my dad's (very) old house, or drilling
    asbestos that's been "sealed in place" most certainly is. Remember
    that the standard charge allows for installations that need a whole
    drop wire from the nearest pole, and drilling a hole into the
    If you want to be fussy about hiding the wiring, run some yourself and
    offer him the use of it, like I did. My cables even ran through patch
    panels (I flood wire for ethernet), and it wasn't a problem - he just
    checked the connections and put one of BT's own crimps over the unused
    conductors in the fixed cables and removed the tang from the plugs in
    the patches (it's Cat6 here, and was Cat5 at the old place).
    Of course, different engineers may have different levels of fussiness
    over what they'll accept, but by my reckoning, if it's good enough for
    gigabit ethernet, it won't have any trouble coping with VDSL2.
    Do use solid core cable for fixed wiring though, not patch (stranded)
    lead, both for best performance and ease of acceptance.
    Phil W Lee, Oct 25, 2015
  15. Martin Brown

    Graham J Guest

    You should be present in person to instruct and supervise the engineer.
    Do not delegate this task to anybody else.
    Graham J, Oct 25, 2015
  16. Martin Brown

    Roland Perry Guest

    In my last house the master socket was in the kitchen at the back of the
    house, and the one before that in a small bedroom upstairs at the back
    (which had been used as an office).

    In both cases with the "drop" wire attached around the outside of the
    Roland Perry, Oct 25, 2015
  17. Martin Brown

    AnthonyL Guest

    I'm tempted to do that. Will BT have been able to detect that there
    was a socket without entering the property?
    AnthonyL, Oct 25, 2015
  18. Martin Brown

    AnthonyL Guest

    I've got a reel of Cat5 - should do?

    But the lounge is near the entry point so a quick drill through the
    wall and I'm reasonably happy.
    AnthonyL, Oct 25, 2015
  19. Martin Brown

    AnthonyL Guest

    Yes I'll be there - just don't want an argument with the engineer when
    he spots that there is some existing internal pre-historic
    installation and decides it's easier to use that.
    AnthonyL, Oct 25, 2015
  20. Martin Brown

    Phil W Lee Guest

    (AnthonyL) considered Sun, 25 Oct 2015 12:37:16
    GMT the perfect time to write:
    That's why you remove it first.
    After all, who is to say that it wasn't taken out by the previous
    (cable only using) owner/occupier, maybe while redecorating at some
    unspecified time in the past?

    You are paying the same for your new installation as someone who is
    wanting it in a building which has NEVER had a BT connection, so the
    cost allows for the possibility of having to install it from scratch.

    If you want to hide cables behind skirting, or something like that, it
    is best to put your own in and offer it to them, as they won't hide

    And yes, as long as your reel of Cat5 is solid core, it will be fine -
    it's actually a higher specification than BT would use, which is
    pre-Cat3! Just leave a few inches extra at each end for the engineer
    to work with.
    Phil W Lee, Oct 27, 2015
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