BRINGING TWO IDE HHs INTO THE FRAY

Discussion in 'Computer Information' started by ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~, Oct 22, 2003.

  1. JC Allison:
    I haven't seen a bent pin or a switch anywhere, though on the back of HDD
    there was a diagram of jumper settings.

    NS:
    JCA:
    There is a power cable to the BAY unit, this connects to the slide-in-tray
    upon insertion, and this is connected to the HDD in the slide-in-tray.


    NS:
    JCA
    It is connected. And if I knew which probe to put in which hole in the power
    plug, I could make sure that there was power there.

    I could take out one of the HDDs and connect it to the plug from the PS and
    if the HDD spun up, then that would indicate that the wire is energized. Is
    that an alright thing to do? It could be that the drives are, for whatever
    reason, non-functioning. It is a possibility.

    But I am more inclined to think that it is some mess-up in communication
    between the IDE drives and the IDE controller. Though the device manager
    said that the IDE controller is function normally.

    NS:
    JCA:
    The lights on the front of the BAY into which the slide-in-tray is inserted
    do not light. So I am inclined to say that they are not getting power, but I
    don't know why.

    NS:
    JCA:
    All the cable are properly connected as far as I can tell.

    Anyway, hope you are well, and thanks for the considered responses.
     
    ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~, Oct 24, 2003
    #21
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  2. type.

    JC Allison:
    There is a key hole on the front of the bay, but turning it doesn't seem to
    do anything.

    we may be onto something here...
     
    ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~, Oct 24, 2003
    #22
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  3. In the few arrangements for removable drives that I've seen this lock is
    a purely mechanical one. If it won't close then I'd strongly suspect
    that the tray isn't inserted all the way. Assuming that you can't insert
    it any further (since making sure the drive was fully inserted into the
    tray would be one of the first things you'd check, right?) then it's
    probable that there's a problem in the back of the tray that's blocking
    it. Could be a bent pin, could be a bit of packing material that didn't
    get removed. Could be lots of things. But if the lock won't turn then
    it's very likely that this is the problem.
     
    Calvin Crumrine, Oct 24, 2003
    #23
  4. Hot Swap. Yes, if your drives support hot swap then you can remove them
    without shutting down the PC. If you remove them when they're running
    though you do risk damaging the drive and/or data. Best is 1) make sure
    nothing is writing to the drive, 2) remove the power & let it spin down,
    and 3) remove it. Depends on why you're removing it of course. IME Hot
    Swap is usually used to remove a defective drive in which case you don't
    really care whether it gets damaged or not. But the above is the way to
    remove it without damage. (BTW, it isn't always obvious how to remove
    the power. Believe it or not, the best way I've found is to simply
    unlock the drive. As you've seen, if the drive isn't locked in place
    then it won't work. The problem with it is that you usually need to move
    the drive *a little* to unlock it. Best if you can use a 'remove or
    eject hardware' option if your PC has one.)
     
    Calvin Crumrine, Oct 24, 2003
    #24
  5. ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~

    Trent© Guest

    Why are you doing all this? Yer probably voiding yer warranty.


    Have a nice week...

    Trent

    Certified breast self-exam subcontractor.
     
    Trent©, Oct 25, 2003
    #25
  6. ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~

    Trent© Guest

    They need to be turned on...power needs to be sent to the
    drives/trays...for the drives to be recognized.

    Did you turn each of them on? If so, you'll see the light on the
    front of the tray come on when they boot.

    Again...you should not be doing any of what yer doin'...if you just
    got the machine. Its improbable that anything is wired incorrectly.


    Have a nice week...

    Trent

    Certified breast self-exam subcontractor.
     
    Trent©, Oct 25, 2003
    #26
  7. Trent is an expert on playing with it.

    BB
     
    BinaryBillTheSailor, Oct 25, 2003
    #27
  8. ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~

    DeMoN LaG Guest

    Try doing this:
    Take a known working device like the CD drive, disconnect the cables to it.
    Take the hard drive out of the tray, plug the power and IDE cable from the
    CD into it and see if it spins up and is detected. The lights not going on
    on the front of the bay indicates something isn't working. There should
    always be one light on and there is usually a drive access light as well as
    a power light. You do have the drives inserted and locked before you turn
    on the machine, right?

    --
    AIM: FrznFoodClerk (actually me)
    email: de_on-lag@co_cast.net (_ = m)
    website: under construction
    Need a technician in the south Jersey area?
    email/IM for rates/services
     
    DeMoN LaG, Oct 25, 2003
    #28
  9. ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~

    derek / nul Guest

    I have key ones and slide lock ones, the lock or the slide turn the power on.
     
    derek / nul, Oct 25, 2003
    #29
  10. DeMoN LaG wrote
    JC Allison:
    As far as I can tell, everything is connected to the part that is in the
    bay. The computer runs, but I do not of my own personal knowledge know that
    there is electricity to the plug that goes on the back of the part that is
    in the bay.

    The one place that I haven't looked is inside the part that is installed in
    the bay, and I plan to take one of those out and see what the status of the
    internals of THAT part are.

    I'll get back to you with the scoop.
     
    ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~, Oct 25, 2003
    #30
  11. JC Allison:
    It would be fortuitious if it were just a switch.

    NS:
    JCA:
    There is a four or five wire lead coming from a functioning PS to the back
    of each IDE bay. But there is also some questionable things about all the
    mess of wires. And when I get the sides off of the box, I will sort it out
    and then post the details of the schematic. It could possibly be a fitting
    that has come loose, for there were a number of wire assemblies with a plug
    JCA:
    They are connected, but give no indication that they are powered up.

    NS:
    JCA:
    Yes the power cables are connected.

    Would it be safe to assume that the order with which the ribbon cable is
    connected to devices determines the Master/Slave relationship?

    Like the ribbon cable comes from one of the mainboard's IDE controller
    slots, to one of the 120gig HDD, and then on to the CD ROM. And in the CMOS,
    it is listed as the "Primary Slave" to an IDE "Primary Master" with a
    listing of <none>.

    NS:
    JCA:
    And this is the case.

    So I am going to be opening up the tower in a bit to check inside the part
    installed in the bay, and to schematic out the power system to find out if
    any of the fittings have come loose, and if so, where they go. Will let you
    know what I find.
     
    ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~, Oct 25, 2003
    #31
  12. JC Allison:
    And how are they turned on?

    T:
    JCA:
    They had power wires connected, but there was no indication that they had
    power.

    T:
    JCA:
    Again, how are they each turned on?

    T:
    JCA:
    The lights are there. I have never seen either of them light up.

    T:
    JCA:
    Actually, this particular rig is one that I have been working on for about
    two years. It is a completely functioning DTV system, and I wanted to have
    some way to put lots of data (TV is data intensive) ie. Master Edits, and
    out takes, and so I got this bug about removable drives... So I had a couple
    put in, but the HDDs didn't show up till later, and so when I got the
    slide-in-trays, with the HDDs in them, I brought them home and put them into
    the bays, but I was deep into a construction project of build the TV studio
    in which the DTV system will be used, and I didn't do anything with the
    Removable Media until now, which is a year or so later. So your concerns
    about warranty, and just having gotten the machine are are unwarrented...
    And let me just say that before I got the Tyan Trinity MainBoard, I had
    originally gotten an MSI Dual PIII 1 gig CPUs, but the VIA chipset wasn't
    compatable with the Matrox equipment, and it wouldn't load at all... It has
    all been a long and arduous process, and one that I have procrastinated with
    for some time, but it can no longer be put off...

    Anyway, let me tell you what I have found upon taking off both sides of the
    tower, and removing the two Removable Media arrangements... Everything looks
    nice and normal. Enough precision to insure that all the parts fit together,
    ALL EXCEPT for the little locking/switch mechanism... One of them is broken,
    and the other one is so badly aligned that it will not function.

    Alright, so enough or this Removable Media kick.

    Let's discuss a fallback position... I have in the interim obtained a 200
    gig USB2 HDD, and it has already functioned wonderfully in the back up
    another similar (same MB, case, CD, FD) machine to the DTV system.

    So what I think I want to do is to just install the two 120 gig
    WesternDigital IDE drives as integral units in the DTV system. that system
    already has two Seagate Cheetah HDDs, but I would like to keep those
    dedicated to System, and Data in use (for TV editing). I would like to have
    one of the 120s as the raw footage from the MiniDV VCR/CamCorder and the
    other 120 for saving final MASTERS. And then I could use the USB for
    back-up and etc.

    So here is where I am now... I would like to hook up one of the 120 to the
    power and IDE ribbon cable direct, instead of through the Removable Media
    bay. And see if it is seen by the system...

    But before I do that, I am going to have to satisfy myself that I am not
    going to do anything to mess up the machine in the process... So in order to
    get my self some confidence, I am going to cogitate this idea, and when I
    have a question, I will post it, and see what the considered response is...

    BTW, this is all quite interesting to me, I don't consider it adversity,
    rather it is the learning how to do this kind of thing which I very much
    enjoy. I remember the elation when I finally got the Matrox stuff to load
    after having messed with the MSI MainBboard and VIA ChipSet for so long with
    no success at all. It is like a life and death struggle, that one can call a
    "time-out" with any time things get to be too frustrating.

    Anyway thanks for taking the time with me and this.
     
    ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~, Oct 25, 2003
    #32
  13. JC Allison:
    Well, as you say, it can't be removed with the switch on. But I fear that I
    have been giving this problem more gravity than it deserves. It's not the
    power cable or the fitting... It's not the ribbon cable or where they are
    fastened... It's been this switch on the bay insert, and one of them is
    inoperative, and the other one is so badly fitted that it couldn't possibly
    work... but beyond that, there is the matter of the keys. They are the keys
    that came with the units, but they are not the "right" keys to do the job,
    and to be honest with you, I don't know what would constitute the "right"
    key, but I know that none of the four keys that I have on two rings are
    capable of turning the switch on or off, nor actuating the locking
    mechanism... But the lock is definitely a switch of some sort for it has a
    red wire and a black wire attached to it.

    Anyway, here is what I have in mind... I want to mount the two 120s as
    integral units... The tower I have has six bays for HDDs, with two Segates
    already installed, one of them having a cooling unit on its underside. Above
    these bays, there are five more front access bays for such things as CD ROM
    drives, and the Removable Media inserts, and a 1.44 mg diskette drive is
    installed on top of those five front access bays. What I think I want to do
    is to just mount the two 120s in the same set of bays as the Seagates. Would
    that be alright to do? Would heat be a factor? I have four fans moving air
    into and out of the tower, a cooler on the CPU and a cooler on one of the
    Seagates...

    Another question that I'd like to find out about is how can I safely hook up
    one or two of the IDE HDDs to the proper ribbon cable and the proper power
    source and see if they would boot THAT way. Can I just set up something
    (like a stack of books) to set the HDDs on which is close enough to the
    computer that the ribbon and power cables will reach, and then just boot
    the computer?

    And if I do that... how will the computer let me know that it is "seeing" or
    "detecting" the "new" hardware, in this case two IDE HDDs? Is IDE considered
    to be "Plug&Play"? Do I have to go into CMOS and do anything with the
    notations of IDE drives (Primary Master&Slave, and Secondary Master&Slave),
    and the CD is listed as the Primary Slave...

    Also, these drives have neither been partitioned, nor formatted...

    This is first off a test to see if in actuality the drives will be
    "recognized", and if they are, how to Partition them (thus giving them a
    drive letter), and then the formatting them so that they can accept data...


    Like I said, we're hot on the trail, where there's smoke there's fire, I can
    feel this starting to cook! I should have realized that the foofiness of
    Removable Media was unwarranted and was the weak link in the hardware.

    Well, I have a thunder storm encroaching. Gotta get off line.





    The ones on the
     
    ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~, Oct 25, 2003
    #33
  14. ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~

    Trent© Guest

    Usually with a key. When you turn the key, it locks the bay in
    place...and also gives current to the drive.
    The front of the bay should have an indicator light. When the
    computer is turned on...and the drive key is turned so that it'll be
    operative...that light will come on when the computer boots.
    From reading ahead, its because you never turned them on with the
    key...which you aren't able to do, from what you've written. So its
    as if nothing is there...as far as the computer is concerned. You
    must have power to the drives before they can be recognized in the
    BIOS during bootup.
    If you want to go this route, you should replace both mounting units
    with new. They come as a set, of course...the permanent part that
    mounts into the computer...and the other part that slides in and
    contains the hard drive.

    Some folks never take the drive out of the computer...which can easily
    be accomplished by simply not turning the key...i.e., not giving power
    to the drive. For a lot of reasons, though, this is not a good idea.
    Let's go a step further with this...

    One important step in getting the BIOS to recognize the drives
    properly is to make sure the jumpers are set properly on the drives.
    This is especially critical when you have more than one drive on a
    controller.

    This is hardly a problem on a permanent installation. You set one
    drive as master...with slave attached. You set the other drive as
    slave. When you boot the computer, they always boot up in that
    priority.

    But if you remove either one of the drives, it changes the COMPLETE
    setup (but not always...I'll explain later). So...if you take the
    slave drive out...which you in essence would do if you don't turn the
    key on for that drive...the other drive will no LONGER be master with
    slave attached...as the slave is no longer attached. It will be a
    single-drive configuration.

    Luckily, most of the modern drives now have their primary setting
    as...single drive OR master with slave attached...this being just one
    jumper setting. In other words, if you have 2 drives attached to the
    same controller, the primary drive will work properly whether or not
    you have a slave drive attached (key turned).

    But the 2nd drive MUST be set to slave when on that same controller.
    If you happen to turn off the key on the primary drive...but happen to
    turn on the drive on the slave drive...the slave drive will NOT be
    recognized properly...simply because there is no MASTER connected to
    that controller.

    Recapping...and very important when setting the jumpers on a
    removable-tray drive on the same controller...

    The SINGLE-DRIVE drive will work properly whether or not a slave is
    attached on the same controller.

    The MASTER DRIVE will only work properly if a slave drive is attached.

    The SLAVE DRIVE will only work properly if a master drive is attached.

    And, since you can't change the jumpers easily on a removable-tray
    drive...nor would you want to...its important to decide ahead of time
    how yer gonna jumper the drives during their installation.
    Just be careful of the jumper settings. If on separate controllers,
    they can both be set to single drive. If on the same controller, one
    must be jumpered as slave.
    Make sure that the controller you put it on is set to auto in the
    BIOS.
    First step is to be sure its recognized...at its proper size...by the
    BIOS as the machine boots.

    If that goes well, boot into a floppy that you'll use to partition and
    format the drive.
    Welcome.


    Have a nice week...

    Trent

    Follow Joan Rivers' example --- get pre-embalmed!
     
    Trent©, Oct 26, 2003
    #34
  15. JC Allison:
    And what exactly happens when they are "recognized" in the BIOS during
    bootup"? It will just assign them Drive Letters?

    T:
    JC Allison:
    At this point, I am considering permanant installation, each on its own
    controller as a Master, and the CD ROM drive as the Primary Slave. That's
    the way it was set up with the Removable Media arrangement. And so the only
    difference would be the mounting of the HDDs. In this computer, it would
    involve moving each of the Seagate HDDs down one level in the bay, and using
    the top two bays for the WD HDDs, with the CD ROM drive in the bottom bay of
    the upper front loaded bays. I can do this! :)

    T:
    JCA:
    Well, if I had known a 15 months ago what I now know about USB2, I wouldn't
    have opted for the Removable Media route. So the worst thing to happen is
    that the two 120 become permanent mounted drives, and I noticed that they
    are jumpered for single use and Master.

    T:
    JCA:
    Which is what is happening, with the CD ROM being the Primary Slave.

    T:
    JCA:
    The two 120 are each on a separate IDE controller.

    T:
    JCA:
    No more keys... The Removable Media is out the window.

    T:
    JCA:
    They are going to stay the way they are as single drive OR master.

    T:
    JCA:
    And how do I check that to make sure?

    T:
    JCA:
    Is this an automatic function, or do I have to do some kind of input.

    T:
    JCA:
    I have the Win2K Pro CD, I have the Acronis PartitionExpert, I have the
    boots disks that were made when I installed Win2K Pro on the machine. I'll
    have to figure out what to do when I get to that point...

    Isn't this fun? :)
     
    ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~, Oct 26, 2003
    #35
  16. JCA:
    Yes, but a tray slides out containing the HDD.

    DL:
    shot).

    JCA:
    I am going to arrange that on this computer now.

    NS:
    JCA:
    My conclusion exactly... I have pretty much satisfied myself that the
    problem is the "Key Switch" on the bay mounted case. I am going to set up a
    stack of books high enough to make the HDDs positioned on them to where the
    ribbon and power cables will reach. I am then going to boot the machine.
    What can I expect to happen? What will I see on the monitors? Will I need to
    go into CMOS? What? :)

    This is once again the first hand experience of doing this... It is like
    learning an arcane artform...
     
    ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~, Oct 26, 2003
    #36
  17. ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~

    Julie Guest

    I'm blundering into this a little late & have probably missed a lot of the
    responses, but FWIW I use 2 different brands of trays & they both are off
    when the lug on the power- switching key is at 6 o'clock & on at the 9
    o'clock position.
    Also, to get the drives to work properly irrespective of which one is
    powered or off, I have to set the jumpers on both to Cable Select (CS).
    Grump.
     
    Julie, Oct 26, 2003
    #37
  18. ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~

    Trent© Guest

    No...it will just show the drive stats...and tell you some other stuff
    about the drive. Drive letters aren't assigned until you partition
    the drive.
    Both have their limitations.
    Boot into the BIOS...usually by hitting the delete key as it boots.
    Its in the first item on the main menu.
    The BIOS is the area where YOU tell the COMPUTER what kind of hardware
    you have installed...and how to run it. The newer BIOS now have some
    modern features...like auto detect for the hard drive, auto detect for
    the CPU, etc. But you can easily change these to value YOU
    want...instead of the default that is detected.

    For instance, you can tell the computer that you have a 850 meg
    drive...or change the voltage for the CPU, etc. This is not true in
    ALL situations, however. But it is for the most part.

    Just set these areas to automatic and you should be okay. Its
    extremely rare that you'd ever want to change the default, detected
    settings.
    About as much fun as circumcision. Its not as much fun as you get
    older! lol


    Have a nice week...

    Trent

    Follow Joan Rivers' example --- get pre-embalmed!
     
    Trent©, Oct 26, 2003
    #38
  19. ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~

    DeMoN LaG Guest

    That means your computer sees them. The BIOS does not assign drive
    letters, that is a function of Windows.

    --
    AIM: FrznFoodClerk (actually me)
    email: de_on-lag@co_cast.net (_ = m)
    website: under construction
    Need a technician in the south Jersey area?
    email/IM for rates/services
     
    DeMoN LaG, Oct 26, 2003
    #39
  20. ~~~AllisonWonderland~~~

    DeMoN LaG Guest

    You'll see something similar to:

    Pri Master: <drive model>
    Pri Slave: <CD model>
    Sec Master: <drive model>
    Sec Slave: None

    instead of

    Pri Master: None
    Pri Slave: <CD model>
    Sec Master: None
    Sec Slave: None

    --
    AIM: FrznFoodClerk (actually me)
    email: de_on-lag@co_cast.net (_ = m)
    website: under construction
    Need a technician in the south Jersey area?
    email/IM for rates/services
     
    DeMoN LaG, Oct 26, 2003
    #40
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