braindumps and cert

Discussion in 'MCAD' started by Disallusioned, Nov 24, 2003.

  1. I was planning on getting my certification for
    professional reasons. However, I have since read most of
    the posts here about the dump sites and how it has
    diluted the certifications dramatically.

    My conclusions from the posts I have read:

    1. Microsoft certifications (and others as well) are
    worthless due to the ease with which one can cheat and
    obtain the cert.

    2. Real professionals don't need the certs.

    How depressing!

    This doesn't have to be the case, you know. There is no
    reason why Microsoft can't thwart the braindump cheaters
    by changing up the tests as soon as they see the test is
    compromised. Don't be so hard on the braindumpers, it is
    Microsoft's responsibility to insure the value of their
    certs. There have always been cheaters and there always
    will be. However, I have never seen it so easy as with
    the cert exams!

    I already have my first test scheduled and will probably
    take it anyway, but you guys and gals have talked me out
    of going any farther.

    Thanks.
     
    Disallusioned, Nov 24, 2003
    #1
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  2. Disallusioned

    Anonymizer Guest

    Sorry to hear that :(

    Please dont lose heart just because others took a
    shortcut. After all you're doing it to learn and better
    yourself. The fact that the other guy cheated doesnt
    affect your learning at all.

    The way I see it : I could spend a couple of years
    working in .NET to learn it as I go. I spent 3+ years in
    ASP/VB and there's still quite a lot of things that I
    missed out on because I was learning as I went but never
    strayed off the beaten path and frankly never had the
    time on a project.

    Or I could sit down and study for a few months and really
    learn things and take a test to make sure I know it, as
    more of a milestone than a goal.

    Unlike with ASP/VB, with .NET now there's a strong line
    being drawn between developers and the mickey mouse types
    that spent a week or two reading a dummies book.
    Bullsh*t can only get you so far.

    Day by day at my work, I see a very strong line forming
    between those who know what they're doing and those who
    don't even know that they don't.

    Paper or no paper I know what I'm doing and I have the
    confidence to back my sh*t up. And I'm not the only one
    that notices that either.
     
    Anonymizer, Nov 24, 2003
    #2
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  3. Disallusioned

    hello Guest

    I'm always happy to read about people who care not to cheat. Unfortunately I
    believe that there are a LOT more cheaters than non cheaters.
     
    hello, Nov 24, 2003
    #3
  4. Disallusioned

    hello Guest

    1. Agree with that point.

    2. Disagree. I think the .NET exams are very well done. The questions are
    relevant and not easy. If there were virtually no cheating, then the .NET
    certs could really mean a lot.

    Microsoft can't change the exams everytime the questions become public,
    because that would be extremely costly and possibly even unfair. The level
    of difficulty has to be consistent. What I believe Microsoft should do, is
    to have a huge number of questions to pool from. If someone can learn the
    whole of MSDN library, then I say that person is more than an expert. So if
    someone can remember thousands and thousands of actual test
    questions/answers, then that person deserve to get certified.

    Personally, I never saw any braindump, so I can only guess what people are
    talking about.

    The learning journey to Microsoft certification is what is really relevant.
    Getting the cert itself is worthless from a career perspective. But you can
    be proud of yourself holding the cert if you did not cheat.

    Don't give up.
     
    hello, Nov 24, 2003
    #4
  5. I wonder if it's even easier to memorize the answers to the questions.
    It seems to me you'd inadvertantly *learn* something, and that's easier.
     
    General Protection Fault, Nov 24, 2003
    #5
  6. I agree that Microsoft should have a large pool of
    questions to draw from. Both the FAA and FCC do that with
    their tests. They publish the pool, too. The concept is
    that if you want to study all 500 test questions before
    the exam, go for it. You can learn from it. All pilots
    today have had access to test questions for their license
    beforehand. Does that mean they are "paper" pilots?

    Ok, you guys have convinced me to go forward. The
    learning will be worth it, whether the cert is worth it
    or not.
     
    disallusioned, Nov 25, 2003
    #6
  7. Disallusioned

    Jereniva Guest

    How exactly is studying a braindump cheating?

    Is standing around outside the testing center, cramming
    with friends considered cheating?

    Is studying in a group cheating? You're getting
    oral 'brain dump' aren't you?

    You can get all the certifications you want, those letters
    on your resume may even help you get an interview as
    opposed to having your application get tossed aside. But
    nobody, I mean nobody hiring for a position beyond Level-0
    help desk, is going to just hire you based on your pretty
    little resume with all the letters lined up and looking
    right.

    But when it comes down to it - professionals talk
    together, it's how they learn and it's how they get better
    at what they do.
    Nothing wrong with looking over a brain dump, nothing
    whatsoever.

    There will always be little facts that require simple rote
    memory until you've used them enough in your career that
    you don't need to actually think about it. You do this by
    cramming. It's unfornately the way it is. As a child, you
    learned your ABC's that way, you learned your
    multiplication tables that way. and Years ago, I had to
    just sit there and memorize IP ranges for different
    classes in that same way.

    In short, to the original poster, passing a Microsoft exam
    is feat in and of itself. No, it isn't climbing Everest,
    but it's a feat. I'm in my 15th year as IT manager, I hold
    MCSE in NT4 and 2000, plus a handful of other exams (VB
    and SQL Srvr 7.0 design)
     
    Jereniva, Nov 26, 2003
    #7
  8. Disallusioned

    hello Guest

    It's people like these who really bother me. Because they really can't see
    what is wrong with getting the actual questions and answers before going for
    the actual exam is cheating. I guess we all have different views when it
    comes to what is right and wrong.

    If your friends are giving you actual test questions/answers, then yes it is
    cheating. They are also breaking their NDA by doing so.

    Same as my previous answer.

    Is that a problem for that new desktop certification then? What if I just
    put a series of fake certs on my resume, just to get it to show up when
    employers do a search (actually I think some people do that too :))?

    What if there were only 5 questions to get MCSD.NET? Always the same 5
    questions. I could get a kindergarten to learn the answers for those 5
    questions and that kid will get MCSD.NET. While another professional will
    spend months studying and pass. Does the MCSD.NET cert say anything about
    the skill of both individuals?
     
    hello, Nov 26, 2003
    #8
  9. Disallusioned

    Guest Guest

    I am telling you, as a person who is an IT manager and has
    been one for over 15 years; As a person who has
    interviewed enough prospective entry-level IT techs to
    fill a basketball gym - the candidate can have all the
    letters he or she wants on the resume. The person who has
    only read books and memorized brainfarts, then managed to
    pass exams, is not difficult to pick out.

    A few pointed questions along the lines of, "The WinSock
    service on your Proxy server is crashing regularly, around
    12:15 each afternoon. How do you go about resolving this?"
    or "You have a visiting consultatant who needs to hook up
    his laptop to our network and get Internet access, how do
    you go about doing this?"
    will quickly weed out the person who memorized all the
    braindump questions he could get his hands on and managed
    to pass a Microsoft exam from the ones who really know how
    to approach problems and solve them.

    When interviewing, I'm not going to ask you stupid
    questions that result in a 1 sentence answer. I'm going to
    answer you a question that forces you to think through
    processes. I'm going to watch you, and see if I can follow
    your thought process.

    Your example about the kindergarten student who passes
    the .NET exam would be a reflection on how poorly the exam
    works at reflecting the candidate's knowledge. It has
    nothing to do with students studying together.

    As for what is right or wrong, bringing the answers in to
    the exam is wrong, studying the answers outside the
    testing room is not wrong.

    Find me one university that says it is wrong to talk to
    students who just took a test you are set to take to get a
    feel for what is on that test before you yourself take it.

    questions/answers, then yes it is
     
    Guest, Nov 26, 2003
    #9
  10. Disallusioned

    ab Guest

    In theory universities change their exams every year. Some universities even
    publish their exams papers afterwards. If you say it is OK to "study" the
    actual exam questions and answers, then what about this:
    Two resumes from person A and person B. Similar knowledge level but person A
    has MCSD.NET, while person B does not.
    Should you call person A for an interview and not person B?

    I think people reading this now know what is left for them to do.

    Anyway, even if some people think that it is OK to get their hands on actual
    exam questions and answers is alright, what about the legal side of it? Do
    you remember the NDA? Is it OK if someone else broke the law, after all
    someone broke the NDA, I'm only using what someone else has "stolen", so
    it's fine... is it? I just saw that guy stole that Xbox, I'm buying it from
    him for 5 bucks... good deal.

    Mr "15 years IT manager", I wonder if someone told you that he used
    braindump to get his MCSD.NET, if you would still employ that person.
     
    ab, Nov 27, 2003
    #10
  11. Disallusioned

    Jim McCarty Guest

    I don't mind the braindumps, IF, the person is working in
    the field and has experience. This is the problem with
    Microsoft. They do not enforce the experience
    requirements. If you were to try and get CISSP
    certificaiton you have to meet a minimum requirement for
    experience, and you have to be sponsored by another CISSP.
    This would solve the problems with paper certifications,
    braindumps or not.
     
    Jim McCarty, Dec 5, 2003
    #11
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