Brain Dumping.....

Discussion in 'MCSE' started by wongcna, Sep 18, 2004.

  1. wongcna

    Jeff Cochran Guest

    Getting rid of brain dumps won't have any effect on the "value" of
    Microsoft certifications. There will still be those who read a book
    and passed without practical experience. And even then, the
    certification has little market value for an individual. People get
    hired, not certifications. No cert will get you hired when you can't
    do the job.

    Jeff
     
    Jeff Cochran, Sep 19, 2004
    #61
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  2. Sun, Oracle, IBM, British Computer Society, IEEE etc,etc all offer a
    I never said ALL the vendor/organizational exams were in a format
    other than the simple multi-choice/drag n drop format offered by ms,
    however these are different : -

    http://suned.sun.com/US/certification/java/java_archj2ee.html
    http://suned.sun.com/US/certification/java/java_devj2se.html

    http://www.oracle.com/education/certification/dba9i_ocm.html

    http://www.computer.org/certification/education.htm

    http://www.bcs.org/BCS/Join/TrustedSourcesNomination
    http://www.bcs.org/BCS/Products/Qualifications/Exam/About/examstructure.htm

    http://www.prince2.org.uk/Web/Site/PRINCE2Qualification/Practitioner-Examination.asp

    In addition other vendors (e.g. ericsson & rational) offer product
    certification, the format of which requires more than simply being
    able to get hold of transcenders, testking etc, in order pass the
    exams.
    What's this scaling and cost? Maybe ms should give away their
    'premium' certifications with a carton of milk, this would scale well
    and be real cheap too! Even people living out of a dumpster can get
    hold of one, nice!

    As far as costs goes, well that just boils down to how much something
    is worth in terms of real benefits. In business this ultimately comes
    down to simple cost savings and revenue generation, where by spending
    $1 million in order to save $2 million makes perfect business sense,
    were as spending $10 to save $0.50 makes no sense. Employing well
    trained people helps to achieve this

    Any company 'should' try to employ the best people for their business.
    However, especially within IT departments, finding the 'best people'
    is hard enough amongst all the crap (and yes, I know it all comes down
    the experience). If a meaningful certification process existed which
    to a large extent proved the holder was indeed certified, then the
    value of the certification is increased. This makes the holder worth
    more, more to themselves and more to the business who hires them. So
    if even if it cost $5000 to become truly certified, it's money well
    spent, and if in the process it stops the idiots from even attempting
    the process (although they would never pass anyway) that's even
    better, although the likes of testking would not agree.In any case,
    there are people who pay far more than this just to become certified
    now, many are just throwing money down the drain! I'm sorry to the
    'newbies' wishing to enter the profession, however gaining a
    certification is not a way though the door, it's just not that simple
    (despite what some 'training' companies might have them believe).
    Of course it would. Why do you think companies demand that people
    wishing to enter into the profession of software development, require
    at least a baccalaureate before they even look at them? It's because
    those people have proven they have the 'potential' to make it in the
    field. The same would apply if business saw ms certification as proof
    that the person was certified (and knew their stuff), at present
    companies can't because there are plenty of people who are useless who
    gain these certs as well as those who are skilled.

    Sure even today many companies are still clueless as to the role of IT
    in their organization, and if those organization wish to employ second
    rate people and look to reduce costs <cough> by doing so, good luck to
    them. Cheap is not always the best value, especially when it comes to
    people.
    I don't need to do any research to see the current process is crap, I
    just have to look at the type of questions posted here to see that.

    Whatever it costs to produce the ms exams is immaterial as all that
    seems to be happening is that more and more clueless people become
    'certified' and the only winners are the 'practice' test providers,
    cowboy boot camp companies who successful exploit the situation. One
    thing is sure though, IT does not benefit by having such people
    flooding the market; still I'm sure that few of these actually get
    anywhere, or do they......

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Sep 19, 2004
    #62
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  3. agreed. i would rather be amongst the smaller numbered CCIE's....

    I thought you already were! But then again I use to think you were
    NYC, proves how little I really know!

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Sep 19, 2004
    #63
  4. Certs, in my opinion, will never be a money making
    I'm sure transcender would disagree...

    It would be hard to prove as there are factors to take into account.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Sep 19, 2004
    #64
  5. Are you willing to pay a grand per test?

    As it is my company would, if there a benefit in doing so.

    If I were freelance, and I could see extra contracts (or better paid
    ones) coming as a result, too right I'd pay, but yes there has to be a
    benefit.

    But no your right people just want a free ride in life so what the
    heck...

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Sep 19, 2004
    #65
  6. You SO don't get it.

    What I get is that anyone who obtains an ms cert is just another
    number, indistinguishable from all those others with or without. While
    there are those who can achieve <cough> them without the understanding
    required to be able to put into practice what they ought too, the
    worth of achieving it is minimized.
    I leave it to others to drive business into the ground because of
    their ideas. There are far better people out than me that can do so
    :)

    If you feel it's OK to have unqualified people in the profession,
    that's fine. For me I see the result of it on a regular basis and find
    it sad and funny at the same time. Many people feel that IT is just a
    game to play and it don't really matter, well thankfully I work for a
    company which takes the opposite view.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Sep 19, 2004
    #66
  7. so then it's more than just scribbling down 55 questions? well then, never
    yes there is the process of shipping the answers over to testking :)

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Sep 19, 2004
    #67
  8. Guess what. You don't own the certification program; Microsoft does.
    People, can and do, with almost impunity pass this exams without the
    required experience, knowledge and understanding. To me that makes the
    process flawed, regardless of the cost, time and effort involved in
    producing the exams.

    Few companies that I've seen in the US and UK take these exams
    seriously (other than partners), I'm sure you (and others) have a
    different view point on this matter.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Sep 19, 2004
    #68
  9. And, FWIW, MS has been investigating what you suggest and far more
    bit slow are't they!
    never said I was, just pointing out the current process is flawed, and
    in my view the process can be improved (yes it will cost more).
    Nope I don't. I also don't have a clue how much my [worthless]
    education cost either!

    The issue is not the cost but the benefits achieved, at present those
    benefit's mean nothing. There is no reward to either the holder or the
    client/employer/customer because we are grouped together with John
    'Brain Dumper' and Lucy 'Test King'.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Sep 19, 2004
    #69
  10. Oh, and I still have a seventy-dollar cab ride between here and the
    I remember after I broke my leg (not comparing it your injury), I was
    in a meeting and someone asked what that terrible smell was? I quickly
    asked what the next item on the agenda was!!!

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Sep 19, 2004
    #70
  11. yes. sure they do. especially NYC cabbies.

    A few I knew could sell you some real cheap though!

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Sep 19, 2004
    #71
  12. Amazingly enough, I
    but can you supply me with some testkings please?

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Sep 19, 2004
    #72
  13. I don't know how many have talked to a MS Rep or know the
    I've heard this too. I also heard it before two years ago. I hop it
    happens I really do.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Sep 19, 2004
    #73
  14. are you supporting braindumps?
    that's not what Laura's saying, no way.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Sep 19, 2004
    #74
  15. Getting rid of brain dumps won't have any effect on the "value" of
    Change in the format will help, but I agree, nothing beats experience.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Sep 19, 2004
    #75
  16. It is a kids game right now. Microsoft should at least make it where someone
    I agree, though I see good career ahead for you, unlike the dumpers.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Sep 19, 2004
    #76
  17. Anyway, my point is why don't ms introduce a certification format like
    sorry, but you need to remember I don't live in the real world :)

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Sep 19, 2004
    #77
  18. wongcna

    Neil Guest

    you assume much my friend. My employer would not cough up the cash
    (especially for 7 exams of a grand a piece) for this. As for contract
    customers, I would have to prove a ton for the extra I would charge them
    trying to recoup the expense. Contract customers don't care if you have
    certs, they care about results. If some contractor tells me about all his
    certs I am _more_ likely to dig into his references. chances are if he has
    to rely on his certs to get a job, he don't know dick....
     
    Neil, Sep 19, 2004
    #78
  19. wongcna

    Neil Guest

    question, who shot JFK? What about area 51...so many conspiricies so little
    time...
     
    Neil, Sep 19, 2004
    #79
  20. wongcna

    Neil Guest

    What? Paul is Greek?....

    hehehehehe...
     
    Neil, Sep 19, 2004
    #80
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