Anyone Not Happy With The Canon 20D?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by A, Nov 12, 2004.

  1. A

    JPS Guest

    In message <[email protected]>,
    In a way, though, part of the blame for that has to lie with Canon; that
    is a poor default. The only time that autoselection works well is when
    you are shooting a single subject against a blank background. it is far
    more likely that anyone intending to just point and shoot will have the
    subject dead center.
    I've had lots of people see me using a telephoto lens and commented
    about how I was "cheating". They have no idea how much work and skill
    it takes to get sharp telephoto images. Although, I must admit, the
    camera makes a big difference. I get a much higher percentage of
    keepers with the 20D than I did with the 10D. The focus points seem to
    be more precisely shaped around the squares, and more sensitive,
    especially in low light. The 10D would park out-of-focus, or flash the
    green circle in situations that the 20D will AF perfectly.
    The logical test that most people never think of is to take some
    detailed surface, and photograph it at an angle from the perpendicular,
    say 75 or 80 degrees, instead of 90, and have it auto focus in the
    center with center-point focusing. If it front- or back-focuses, it
    will be sharper away from the middle. Even if the focus is not in the
    image, you can tell where it is by the trend. if the focus is on the
    target, then you can see the best that the camera/lens combo does in the
    area of focus (provided camera shake was not allowed to be a factor).


    The same can be done with manual focusing. If you focus on the center
    but the focus is somewhere else in the final image, then the spacings
    between the mirror the matte screen and the sensor have a discrepancy.
    --
     
    JPS, Nov 13, 2004
    #21
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  2. A

    Mark² Guest

    I've suggested this to several people. Funny thing is, I don't usually get
    a response from them... Seems their eyes gloss over when asked to
    investigate...
    Not all, but amazingly large numbers of folks.
    Oh well... Perhaps they'll get so frustrated with thei perfectly fine
    cameras that they'll sell theirs to me for cheap. :)
     
    Mark², Nov 13, 2004
    #22
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  3. A

    Clyde Guest

    No, no. A Leica M camera for quiet operation.

    Clyde
     
    Clyde, Nov 13, 2004
    #23
  4. Nothing wrong with the Nikon, but the 20D is a cut above.
     
    Randall Ainsworth, Nov 13, 2004
    #24
  5. PEBCAK is a real problem.
     
    Randall Ainsworth, Nov 13, 2004
    #25
  6. A

    Aerticus Guest

    Well, things can't be all that bad.

    I've just been down to my local retailers/outlets

    It seems demand is outstripping supply.

    They have one 20D in stock, not on display, will not open the box as it is a
    special customer order BUT they reckon the customer may have sourced
    somewhere else and don't want to say as they don't want to upset anyone in
    the waiting list

    Now, that seems to be the start of a success story for sure

    Aerticus
     
    Aerticus, Nov 13, 2004
    #26
  7. or a classic marketing ploy to keep the price up? Sudden flood after the
    holiday?
     
    David J Taylor, Nov 13, 2004
    #27
  8. A

    ZONED! Guest

    There IS indeed a focus problem with at least SOME of the 20Ds, I can
    assure you. I am a loyal Canon user for over 25 years and know this
    for a fact (first hand).This is not limited to any particular
    lens/type/or AV. However, I realize that my words hold no more weight
    than random pixels for most who do not know me.
    There are also issues with the grip.
    I agree with that, but usually never meant always ;o)
     
    ZONED!, Nov 13, 2004
    #28
  9. A

    Aerticus Guest

    Yes, definitely - the one and only one may appear on the shelves about 14th
    December?

    Though, to be fair, there are several retail outlets of the type that would
    normally hav 20Ds on display.

    Not one in either :-(

    Aerti
     
    Aerticus, Nov 13, 2004
    #29
  10. A

    Pepys Guest

    So far so good with the D70.

    Couple of the guys replying in this thread suggested the problem with soft
    focus is due to the users lack of photographic skill and knowledge. I
    certainly don't place myself in the expert class, however I have been
    involved in photography for some 35 years and worked as a professional
    (industrial) photographer for 9 years.

    I am certainly not a measurebator, however I must say the RAW conversions
    from the D70 compared with the RAW conversions from the 20D look sharper,
    better saturated, and better exposed. I don't have to spend as much time in
    PS with the D70 images to get a pleasing result. Basically all I do is tweak
    the colour balance if needed and add a little USM.

    When I get a little time I will post some images on pbase of the 20D and D70
    comparison images.

    Sam
     
    Pepys, Nov 14, 2004
    #30
  11. A

    Mark² Guest

    I'm not disputing that there have been some issues.
    The problem is that many assume that they have a bad one, when they don't,
    and are simply unprepared for it's proper use.
    -Which is why I chose the word "usually" rather than always.
    I think we basically agree here.
     
    Mark², Nov 14, 2004
    #31
  12. A

    Mark² Guest

    Splain...
     
    Mark², Nov 14, 2004
    #32
  13. A

    Big Bill Guest

    "PEBCAK"
    Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard.
    Bill Funk
    Change "g" to "a"
     
    Big Bill, Nov 14, 2004
    #33
  14. A

    ZONED! Guest

    Yup, just needed to vent here ;o(
     
    ZONED!, Nov 14, 2004
    #34
  15. A

    Mark² Guest

    Ah. Then I'm glad to be of service...
    :)
     
    Mark², Nov 15, 2004
    #35
  16. A

    Summitar Guest

    Hm. These complaints about the 20D seem to be based on a couple of
    bad samples, and the legitimate problem (since fixed) with the early
    firmware. For the record, I´m using an early model, with the first
    iteration of the firmware, and it´s locked up precisely once - which I
    fixed by removing the battery for a moment.

    The truth is that the 20D is quite simply the best digital body out
    there, short of the much more expensive Canons. The D70 is excellent,
    but the build quality of the 20D is in another league. And Chasseur
    d'Images tests indicate that the Nikon sensors are just not as sharp,
    using the same third-party lenses, as the Canon equivalents.
    (Although all tests still report very positively about the D70 -
    critical sharpness isn´t everything.)

    I've been using the 20D exclusively now for a couple of months, and
    have published all sorts of images from it. My Leicas are gathering
    dust.

    Focus is superbly accurate. My latest technique is to put it on
    servo mode, and fire off two or three rapid shots per image - this
    pretty much autobrackets the focus, in case one shot is off. (Since
    servo mode fires even if the autofocus isn´t locked, you sometimes get
    a couple of slightly different measurements as the camera or subject
    moves. I find it *crucial* to be able to fire even when the focus
    isn´t locked - otherwise you miss the occasional candid image.)

    I´ve modified the settings for bright daylight, especially when colors
    are super-saturated: I find if you set the color +1, you get more
    accurate results.

    As for the complaint about wide lenses - yes, the Canon wide zooms are
    not optimized at the widest focal length at full aperture. The answer
    (and no, I am not George Preddy) is to buy the Sigma 15-30mm zoom,
    which *is* at its best at 15mm, and extremely good wide open (although
    the maximum aperture isn´t that large.) If you read the tests, you'll
    find that it outperforms the equivalent Canon zooms in this respect,
    especially with regard to distortion. Which is not to say that it's
    better in all respects: it's slower, and noisier, and considerably
    less sharp at the 30mm end.

    I´m in love with this combination, ergonomically and optically: I
    shoot ninety per cent of my work with the 20D and the Sigma 15-30 at
    15mm (which is the equivalent of 24mm). My next lens will be a Canon
    75-200mm - probably the f4 version, as the high ASA performance of the
    20D is a wonder, so that you don't really need the extra stop (and
    weight) of the f2.8. (I rarely use a telephoto, but it will be nice
    to have this lens in the kit for portraits and public events.)

    As far as I know, the 20D has in fact conquered the market, much as
    the Digital Rebel did when it was first released. Helps that the body
    hasn´t received a single less than glowing review in any of the major
    magazines (that I´ve read, anyway, and I read pretty much all of
    them).

    If you get a bad sample, I suggest you return it for *another 20D.*
    Or you're likely to end up settling for an inferior camera.
     
    Summitar, Nov 30, 2004
    #36
  17. A

    Clyde Torres Guest

    I agree with many points that you make about the 20D, but I do not think the
    DR and 20D were the only cameras to make a big splash. I think you underrate
    the D70 and other Canon/Nikon precursors. The D70 is still selling very hot
    and is in a niche between the DR and the 20D - not a bad niche to be in
    apparently. Someone earlier said that digital cameras are obsolete after
    six months on the market and that isn't correct either.

    My D70 has performed flawlessly since I've had it, and my 20D has performed
    flawlessly since I've had it. I keep wondering when I'm going to have a 20D
    mirror lock up or other strange thing, but it just keeps on clicking and
    taking great pictures. The D70 was my DSLR entry level camera, and the 20D
    is just an upgrade while my relatives go to Brazil and South America with
    the D70 for two years. They haven't reported any problems with the D70
    ever.

    Clyde Torres
     
    Clyde Torres, Dec 1, 2004
    #37
  18. A

    Summitar Guest

    No, didn't mean to do this at all. The D70 instantly eclipsed the
    Digital Rebel, it's true. In fact, I think we're all benefitting
    hugely from the Nikon/Canon Leapfrog Effect - the race to bring out a
    DSLR model to trump the competitor's last market-conquerer is speeding
    technology along wonderfully.

    While we're on the subject of the 20D, however, I do have one
    complaint that I forgot to mention. Does anyone else find that
    saturated reds blow out very quickly, and need to be desaturated in
    Photoshop in order to bring back detail? I've noticed that
    photographing a red or purple flower can quickly overload the sensor.
    Luckily, the detail is always still there -- it just needs
    manipulation to bring it back. (And you can do this as easily with a
    jpeg as a raw file.) Is this a characteristic of Canon sensors in
    general?
     
    Summitar, Dec 1, 2004
    #38
  19. A

    JPS Guest

    In message <>,
    It can't be the sensor; the sensor is colorblind. It can't be the
    colored filter over the sensor, either, because the filter cuts red more
    than any other color, giving more headroom in the red channel than in
    any other.
    --
     
    JPS, Dec 2, 2004
    #39
  20. A

    Skip M Guest

    Actually, I think it is an overreaction on Canon's part to the poor reds on
    their previous cameras. My D30 rendered Ferrari red as a sort of tomato
    soup color, and my wife's 10D was only a little better.
     
    Skip M, Dec 2, 2004
    #40
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