Anyone Not Happy With The Canon 20D?

In message <[email protected]>,

In a way, though, part of the blame for that has to lie with Canon; that
is a poor default. The only time that autoselection works well is when
you are shooting a single subject against a blank background. it is far
more likely that anyone intending to just point and shoot will have the
subject dead center.

I've had lots of people see me using a telephoto lens and commented
about how I was "cheating". They have no idea how much work and skill
it takes to get sharp telephoto images. Although, I must admit, the
camera makes a big difference. I get a much higher percentage of
keepers with the 20D than I did with the 10D. The focus points seem to
be more precisely shaped around the squares, and more sensitive,
especially in low light. The 10D would park out-of-focus, or flash the
green circle in situations that the 20D will AF perfectly.

The logical test that most people never think of is to take some
detailed surface, and photograph it at an angle from the perpendicular,
say 75 or 80 degrees, instead of 90, and have it auto focus in the
center with center-point focusing. If it front- or back-focuses, it
will be sharper away from the middle. Even if the focus is not in the
image, you can tell where it is by the trend. if the focus is on the
target, then you can see the best that the camera/lens combo does in the
area of focus (provided camera shake was not allowed to be a factor).


The same can be done with manual focusing. If you focus on the center
but the focus is somewhere else in the final image, then the spacings
between the mirror the matte screen and the sensor have a discrepancy.
--

 

I've suggested this to several people. Funny thing is, I don't usually get
a response from them... Seems their eyes gloss over when asked to
investigate...
Not all, but amazingly large numbers of folks.
Oh well... Perhaps they'll get so frustrated with thei perfectly fine
cameras that they'll sell theirs to me for cheap.

 

No, no. A Leica M camera for quiet operation.

Clyde

 

Nothing wrong with the Nikon, but the 20D is a cut above.

 

PEBCAK is a real problem.

 

Well, things can't be all that bad.

I've just been down to my local retailers/outlets

It seems demand is outstripping supply.

They have one 20D in stock, not on display, will not open the box as it is a
special customer order BUT they reckon the customer may have sourced
somewhere else and don't want to say as they don't want to upset anyone in
the waiting list

Now, that seems to be the start of a success story for sure

Aerticus

 

or a classic marketing ploy to keep the price up? Sudden flood after the
holiday?

 

There IS indeed a focus problem with at least SOME of the 20Ds, I can
assure you. I am a loyal Canon user for over 25 years and know this
for a fact (first hand).This is not limited to any particular
lens/type/or AV. However, I realize that my words hold no more weight
than random pixels for most who do not know me.
There are also issues with the grip.

I agree with that, but usually never meant always ;o)

 

Yes, definitely - the one and only one may appear on the shelves about 14th
December?

Though, to be fair, there are several retail outlets of the type that would
normally hav 20Ds on display.

Not one in either :-(

Aerti

 

So far so good with the D70.

Couple of the guys replying in this thread suggested the problem with soft
focus is due to the users lack of photographic skill and knowledge. I
certainly don't place myself in the expert class, however I have been
involved in photography for some 35 years and worked as a professional
(industrial) photographer for 9 years.

I am certainly not a measurebator, however I must say the RAW conversions
from the D70 compared with the RAW conversions from the 20D look sharper,
better saturated, and better exposed. I don't have to spend as much time in
PS with the D70 images to get a pleasing result. Basically all I do is tweak
the colour balance if needed and add a little USM.

When I get a little time I will post some images on pbase of the 20D and D70
comparison images.

Sam

 

I'm not disputing that there have been some issues.
The problem is that many assume that they have a bad one, when they don't,
and are simply unprepared for it's proper use.

-Which is why I chose the word "usually" rather than always.
I think we basically agree here.

 

Splain...

 

"PEBCAK"
Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard.
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

 

Yup, just needed to vent here ;o(

 

Ah. Then I'm glad to be of service...

 

Hm. These complaints about the 20D seem to be based on a couple of
bad samples, and the legitimate problem (since fixed) with the early
firmware. For the record, I´m using an early model, with the first
iteration of the firmware, and it´s locked up precisely once - which I
fixed by removing the battery for a moment.

The truth is that the 20D is quite simply the best digital body out
there, short of the much more expensive Canons. The D70 is excellent,
but the build quality of the 20D is in another league. And Chasseur
d'Images tests indicate that the Nikon sensors are just not as sharp,
using the same third-party lenses, as the Canon equivalents.
(Although all tests still report very positively about the D70 -
critical sharpness isn´t everything.)

I've been using the 20D exclusively now for a couple of months, and
have published all sorts of images from it. My Leicas are gathering
dust.

Focus is superbly accurate. My latest technique is to put it on
servo mode, and fire off two or three rapid shots per image - this
pretty much autobrackets the focus, in case one shot is off. (Since
servo mode fires even if the autofocus isn´t locked, you sometimes get
a couple of slightly different measurements as the camera or subject
moves. I find it *crucial* to be able to fire even when the focus
isn´t locked - otherwise you miss the occasional candid image.)

I´ve modified the settings for bright daylight, especially when colors
are super-saturated: I find if you set the color +1, you get more
accurate results.

As for the complaint about wide lenses - yes, the Canon wide zooms are
not optimized at the widest focal length at full aperture. The answer
(and no, I am not George Preddy) is to buy the Sigma 15-30mm zoom,
which *is* at its best at 15mm, and extremely good wide open (although
the maximum aperture isn´t that large.) If you read the tests, you'll
find that it outperforms the equivalent Canon zooms in this respect,
especially with regard to distortion. Which is not to say that it's
better in all respects: it's slower, and noisier, and considerably
less sharp at the 30mm end.

I´m in love with this combination, ergonomically and optically: I
shoot ninety per cent of my work with the 20D and the Sigma 15-30 at
15mm (which is the equivalent of 24mm). My next lens will be a Canon
75-200mm - probably the f4 version, as the high ASA performance of the
20D is a wonder, so that you don't really need the extra stop (and
weight) of the f2.8. (I rarely use a telephoto, but it will be nice
to have this lens in the kit for portraits and public events.)

As far as I know, the 20D has in fact conquered the market, much as
the Digital Rebel did when it was first released. Helps that the body
hasn´t received a single less than glowing review in any of the major
magazines (that I´ve read, anyway, and I read pretty much all of
them).

If you get a bad sample, I suggest you return it for *another 20D.*
Or you're likely to end up settling for an inferior camera.

 

I agree with many points that you make about the 20D, but I do not think the
DR and 20D were the only cameras to make a big splash. I think you underrate
the D70 and other Canon/Nikon precursors. The D70 is still selling very hot
and is in a niche between the DR and the 20D - not a bad niche to be in
apparently. Someone earlier said that digital cameras are obsolete after
six months on the market and that isn't correct either.

My D70 has performed flawlessly since I've had it, and my 20D has performed
flawlessly since I've had it. I keep wondering when I'm going to have a 20D
mirror lock up or other strange thing, but it just keeps on clicking and
taking great pictures. The D70 was my DSLR entry level camera, and the 20D
is just an upgrade while my relatives go to Brazil and South America with
the D70 for two years. They haven't reported any problems with the D70
ever.

Clyde Torres

 

No, didn't mean to do this at all. The D70 instantly eclipsed the
Digital Rebel, it's true. In fact, I think we're all benefitting
hugely from the Nikon/Canon Leapfrog Effect - the race to bring out a
DSLR model to trump the competitor's last market-conquerer is speeding
technology along wonderfully.

While we're on the subject of the 20D, however, I do have one
complaint that I forgot to mention. Does anyone else find that
saturated reds blow out very quickly, and need to be desaturated in
Photoshop in order to bring back detail? I've noticed that
photographing a red or purple flower can quickly overload the sensor.
Luckily, the detail is always still there -- it just needs
manipulation to bring it back. (And you can do this as easily with a
jpeg as a raw file.) Is this a characteristic of Canon sensors in
general?

 

In message <>,

It can't be the sensor; the sensor is colorblind. It can't be the
colored filter over the sensor, either, because the filter cuts red more
than any other color, giving more headroom in the red channel than in
any other.
--

 

Actually, I think it is an overreaction on Canon's part to the poor reds on
their previous cameras. My D30 rendered Ferrari red as a sort of tomato
soup color, and my wife's 10D was only a little better.