50mm pictures with D300

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Sosumi, Jan 21, 2008.

  1. Sosumi

    PixelPix Guest

    and again...

    Perspective is governed by camera position only.....
    Perspective is governed by camera position only.....
    Perspective is governed by camera position only.....
     
    PixelPix, Jan 23, 2008
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  2. Sosumi

    Dudley Hanks Guest

    Ok, let me try again.

    Rusty says that perspective is the relationship of all the components in a
    picture as established by the distance of each component to the camera
    position, and nothing else.

    Chris thinks that perspective is the relationship of all the components of
    the image, as determined by the position of the camera, the direction it is
    pointing, and the angle of view of the lens mounted on it.

    Is this a more accurate summary of what you fellows have stated?

    Rusty, does the angle of each component to the camera's central axis factor
    into perspective at all?

    Intrigued,
    Dudley
     
    Dudley Hanks, Jan 23, 2008
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  3. Sosumi

    Dudley Hanks Guest

    Chomp ...
    Perhaps you need a more powerful processor!

    Or, maybe my dataset is outdated?

    Running Chkdsk On My Neurons,
    Dudley
     
    Dudley Hanks, Jan 23, 2008
  4. Sosumi

    Dudley Hanks Guest

    Let me put it this way:
    I believe the term you are looking for is "crop". Surely even an old
    blind photographer has heard of it?

    Cropping does not change perspective BTW..... it will have the save
    perspective as the original because camera position did not change.

    Exactly, but we normally think of cropping when discussing the alteration of
    an image after it has been recorded. And, who is going to care about
    perspective on a budgett camera?

    However, we aren't talking about the end product, we are talking about the
    process of framing the shot before we press the shutter button. Would we
    still refer to that process as cropping? Maybe framing?

    But, if I were a betting man, I'd bet that most photographers will still
    call this process "zooming" simply out of habit, because they are performing
    the same action as before, seeing a similar result on their display, and
    capturing a nearly idenical image. And, even if it isn't exactly the same
    graphical effect as optically zooming, does it really matter?

    Currently, on most point and shoots, we have distinguished between optical
    and digital zoom capabilities. How much longer do you think it's going to
    take before camera manufacturers have perfected digital zooms to the point
    where it will be cheaper to get rid of the extra glass / plastic of an
    optical zoom lens and go straight digital?

    I really don't think it will be long, and I think that we will not change
    our syntax at all just because the technology is not the same.

    Just look at the header area of your next e-mail message. Where do you
    stick in the carbon paper for the carbon copy?

    Predicting,
    Dudley

    cc
    Anyone who is interested...
     
    Dudley Hanks, Jan 23, 2008
  5. Sosumi

    Dudley Hanks Guest

    What about changing the shape of the lens elements? For example, what if
    Repeat after me....

    Perspective is governed by camera position only.....
    Perspective is governed by camera position only.....
    Perspective is governed by camera position only.....

    Okay, I've repeated it...
    But, enquiring minds need to know....
    What about the shape of lens elements?


    Still Curious,
    Dudley
     
    Dudley Hanks, Jan 23, 2008
  6. Sosumi

    Dudley Hanks Guest

    What about lens design? For instance, if you have two 300mm lenses, one is
    and again...

    Perspective is governed by camera position only.....
    Perspective is governed by camera position only.....
    Perspective is governed by camera position only.....

    I sense a Google session coming on ...

    Just Too Curious,
    Dudley
     
    Dudley Hanks, Jan 23, 2008
  7. Sosumi

    Paul Furman Guest

    Pano stitching has to undo a lot of distortion but yes the underlying
    relationship between subjects remains.

    The only differences between lenses are rectilinear or fisheye (well I
    think there is another one but it doesn't vary much between lenses of a
    particular type). The geometry of the subject however varies depending
    where you point the lens. Point perpendicular to a building and it's
    walls have straight verticals, point up at a tall building and it tapers
    to the top.

    I learned to draft on paper and I remember constructing perspective
    views you typically abstract it by doing a two point perspective or
    maybe three point. A four point perspective is more like a fisheye lens
    though.

    http://www.termespheres.com/perspective.html

    30-point perspective:
    http://im-possible.info/english/art/various/dick-termes.html
     
    Paul Furman, Jan 23, 2008
  8. Sosumi

    Scott W Guest

    The pointing of the camera clearly changes the perspective.

    If you point the camera level vertical lines with not converge, put
    the camera up and vertical lines do converge.

    Stitching programs have to adjust the perspective of the images that
    are being stitched together.

    Scott
     
    Scott W, Jan 23, 2008
  9. Chris was being too polite. He should have specifically mentioned you,
    John Navas. You John Navas are a logical retard. For example:

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    <http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/noise-reduction.htm>
    -- Best regards, John Navas
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    To which Ali offered the following mild criticism:

    No new website. He covers good topics, but can't relay his knowledge
    very well.

    Don't get me wrong, he is very knowledgeable, but is not a trainer at
    heart.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Navas then offers this logically ignorant and irrelevant rejoiner:

    Your own better example would be where? ;)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    That is like saying (since Navas doesn't understand the word analogy)
    that some scholars can translate Homer from the Greek to English, that
    some reader has to be able to translate Greek in order to distinguish
    that some translations are "gifted" and other translations "mediocre".

    A more subtle and closer to home example is that readers have neither
    Deke McClelland's experience/training ability nor do they have Scott
    Kelby's experience/training ability. Because readers don't have either
    one of these pros qualifications doesn't mean that they can't determine
    that one or the is a better communicator of ideas. There is no
    requirement that readers have the ability and experience as you mention

    Navas: "Your own better example would be where? ;)"

    and have demonstrated this ability and experience in order to arrive at
    a sound opinion that X is quite knowledgeable about a topic but very
    poor in teaching that topic. In fact, that is a very common failing.

    Quite frankly, barely bright people with mediocre educations are not
    often going to mount an argument of interest to the bright and well
    educated. That is not an ad hominem attack, but an honest probabilistic
    assessment of somebody's ability to contribute which happens all the
    time during job interviews. An old maxim which carries this message:

    Ya can't make a silk purse out of a pig's ear so let them eat truffles,
    Stephen
     
    Stephen Harris, Jan 23, 2008
  10. Sosumi

    Frank ess Guest

    Stephen Harris wrote:

    [ ... ]

    An old maxim which
    Easy for /you/ to say.
     
    Frank ess, Jan 23, 2008
  11. Sosumi

    Dudley Hanks Guest

    Hey, Paul, would you attribute the curving and tapering of walls / buildings
    as being part of the perspective phenomena? Or, should it more properly be
    attributed to lens distortion?

    If the latter, can we therefore talk about a "fish-eye perspective,"
    "telephoto perspective" or "normal Perspective"?

    Pausing To Reflect,
    Dudley
     
    Dudley Hanks, Jan 23, 2008
  12. let me guess, its because your a troll ??
    2% vision makes you capable of seeing the occasional flash of light, you
    might be able to discern white and black but everything else is pretty much
    invisible to you
    I had an Aunty that was less blind that you say you are, who had difficulty
    seeing even a simple picture, and we worked hand in glove with the Royal
    Blind Society (now called Vision Australia) for over a decade, often
    trialling the latest visual aids and technologies.
    What technological aids are you using that help you to see Photos to the
    extent that you can tell such detail as camera position, I'm still in
    contact with a few of the people at Vision Australia and they would love to
    get their hands on it.
     
    Atheist Chaplain, Jan 23, 2008
  13. Sosumi

    acl Guest

    acl, Jan 23, 2008
  14. Sosumi

    Dudley Hanks Guest

    let me guess, its because your a troll ??
    Ah, finally, this is what I've been waiting for.

    Yes, you are right, I see a few shapes and shadows, almost no colour, or
    detail, and all kinds of bright flashing lights mixed with floating dark
    spots.

    My condition is known as retinitis pigmentosa, and it involves the
    deterioration of the cells in the retina. Both the rods and the cones lose
    their ability to regenerate the chemical in these cells that convert light
    energy into brain impulses, so, over the years, my sight has deteriorated --
    starting with night vision and progressing to the outer periphery of day
    vision and on down to my central vision.

    But, hey, don't be sad, I've had 40++ years to get used to it and I do just
    fine.

    So, the question we've all been waiting for ....
    No technological aids other than the display on the back of my cameras and
    the computer screen. And the audio input I receive from questions I ask --
    either to assistants who know me or passerbys who don't (but who are usually
    extremely confused / concerned

    I'm still in
    Thank you, Don, I appreciate the question. And, I'm going to elaborate on it
    if you don't mind. (Sorry, I'll elaborate on it even if you do.)

    In addition to Don's question, I often get a few other supplementary
    questions, and I can usually tell that there is an unspoken question behind
    the supplements.

    The big issues here are:
    What technical assistance do I use?
    If I don't use technical assistance, how can I frame / focus a shot?
    If I don't use sight to frame / focus a shot, am I "creating" art with my
    photos, or just "capturing" an image that happens to be in front of my lens?
    If I receive verbal feedback from others in order to create my shots, then
    is it my art, or am I only some kind of glorified medium through which the
    creative ideas of others are channelled into a picture?And, this is the big
    one folks....
    How can I enjoy my own art if I can't see it?

    Well, if I tried to answer all that in this single post, I'd have to skip
    posting it and send it straight to a publisher because I'd have a book --
    probably one that only about 50 friends and relates would read, but a book
    none-the-less.
    I'll just have to be happy with combining two of the questions for now, and
    see if there is sufficient interest for me to elaborate at a later date.

    So, what technical devices do I use, and how can I take a picture if I can't
    see what the hell I'm shooting at.

    This is where the exercise with Rusty comes into play.

    I was trying to illustrate that, for years, sighted photographers have been
    taking pictures without looking through the view-finder.

    In a press scrum such as the scenario I set up, good photographers who shot
    the news would use a technique, hyper-focusing is the name (if I remember
    correctly), where the manually focused lens was focused using the focus
    scale. The photographer would take a light reading, and then he or she
    would choose an aperture and set the focal scale so that the infinity mark
    was on the farthest marker for the aperture they were using.

    Then, they would look at the nearest marker, and they would know that
    everything from a distance of, let's say ten feet infront of them would be
    in focus. Accordingly, they were using a very crude form of auto-focusing
    (or am I going to get in trouble for using that term incorrectly), one in
    which the lens didn't have to be moved, but the photographer didn't have to
    worry about jiggling the focusing ring back and forth.

    As far as focusing went, this system worked just fine, but you are still
    left with the dilemma of how do you frame the shot.

    Well, you couldn't use your eyes, because that meant holding the camera and,
    unless you were REALLY tall, all you got was the back of somebody's head.
    So, the photogs would hold the camera over their head and use their
    IMAGINATION to direct the lens towards the subject. This took a lot of
    practice, and the photographer usually ended up developing a sense not
    unlike that sense which drivers of automobiles develop whereby they know
    pretty accurately where their bumper is even though they can't see it. Most
    drivers can accurately parrallel park their cars with six inches or so
    without causing a great deal of damage, even though they can't actually see
    their bumpers edging ever closer to that of the cars in front and behind
    their own.

    But, like the driver who is parrallel parking without seeing where the
    bumper is (they try to give themselves a bit of a margin of safety and not
    actually touch the car in front or behind), photographers using this
    technique needed a safety zone too. They needed to use a film with fine
    enough grain and of sufficiently large size (35mm usually wasn't a
    candidate) to allow the darkroom crew to blow up the central image to the
    size that was needed -- cropping out the remainder. Don't forget, newspaper
    and magazine news shots usually aren't much larger than 2 or 3 inches
    squared.


    So, I have enhanced this ability, and I usually just point my camera in the
    direction of what I want to capture, and I use my imagination to produce a
    goal that I want to attain, and I draw upon my experience of photographic
    theory, lens design, local geography / layout, etc to realize the image I am
    trying to produce.

    That's it in a nutshell. What do you think?


    Is it possible? Is it art?

    How about you, John? Do you think all this is simply the result of research
    I've done in order to disguise myself as a troll?

    Happy,
    Dudley
     
    Dudley Hanks, Jan 23, 2008
  15. Sosumi

    PixelPix Guest

    "Oh, I don't know, If you pay attention, you might just learn
    something from
    an old, blind photog who's been around the block a few times."

    Is that all you were getting at with your with Fantasy Land BS? Hold
    my camera above my head and preset a hyperfocal distance? Wow gees,
    amazing, the old blind photographer has taught us something
    new ....NOT!

    Now it's my turn (and I think this is just as valid).....

    What colour am I thinking of? I will even give you a hint, it's not a
    primary.
     
    PixelPix, Jan 24, 2008
  16. Sosumi

    Dudley Hanks Guest

    "Oh, I don't know, If you pay attention, you might just learn
    something from
    an old, blind photog who's been around the block a few times."

    Is that all you were getting at with your with Fantasy Land BS? Hold
    my camera above my head and preset a hyperfocal distance? Wow gees,
    amazing, the old blind photographer has taught us something
    new ....NOT!

    Now it's my turn (and I think this is just as valid).....

    What colour am I thinking of? I will even give you a hint, it's not a
    Rusty, can you produce a work of art blindfolded?

    I'm not talking about just pointing a camera at a mountain and snapping the
    shutter. I'm talking about working out your lighting ratios and
    arrangements so that you can produce a desired shadow in a desired place on
    a specific subject in a specific area of the fram, oriented to the
    perspective you desire?

    Give it a try, and then come back to me with your skepticism.

    For that matter, take an old film camera with a manual focus and go down to
    a scrum and see if you can sell the shots you get?

    Try it. It will probably open your eyes even more than wandering around
    with a 50mm lens...

    Satisfied,
    Dudley
     
    Dudley Hanks, Jan 24, 2008
  17. Sosumi

    Tully Guest

    Ah, finally, this is what I've been waiting for.

    Yes, you are right, I see a few shapes and shadows, almost no colour, or
    detail, and all kinds of bright flashing lights mixed with floating dark
    spots.

    My condition is known as retinitis pigmentosa, and it involves the
    deterioration of the cells in the retina. Both the rods and the cones lose
    their ability to regenerate the chemical in these cells that convert light
    energy into brain impulses, so, over the years, my sight has deteriorated --
    starting with night vision and progressing to the outer periphery of day
    vision and on down to my central vision.

    But, hey, don't be sad, I've had 40++ years to get used to it and I do just
    fine.

    So, the question we've all been waiting for ....
    No technological aids other than the display on the back of my cameras and
    the computer screen. And the audio input I receive from questions I ask --
    either to assistants who know me or passerbys who don't (but who are usually
    extremely confused / concerned

    I'm still in
    Thank you, Don, I appreciate the question. And, I'm going to elaborate on it
    if you don't mind. (Sorry, I'll elaborate on it even if you do.)

    In addition to Don's question, I often get a few other supplementary
    questions, and I can usually tell that there is an unspoken question behind
    the supplements.

    The big issues here are:
    What technical assistance do I use?
    If I don't use technical assistance, how can I frame / focus a shot?
    If I don't use sight to frame / focus a shot, am I "creating" art with my
    photos, or just "capturing" an image that happens to be in front of my lens?
    If I receive verbal feedback from others in order to create my shots, then
    is it my art, or am I only some kind of glorified medium through which the
    creative ideas of others are channelled into a picture?And, this is the big
    one folks....
    How can I enjoy my own art if I can't see it?

    Well, if I tried to answer all that in this single post, I'd have to skip
    posting it and send it straight to a publisher because I'd have a book --
    probably one that only about 50 friends and relates would read, but a book
    none-the-less.
    I'll just have to be happy with combining two of the questions for now, and
    see if there is sufficient interest for me to elaborate at a later date.

    So, what technical devices do I use, and how can I take a picture if I can't
    see what the hell I'm shooting at.

    This is where the exercise with Rusty comes into play.

    I was trying to illustrate that, for years, sighted photographers have been
    taking pictures without looking through the view-finder.

    In a press scrum such as the scenario I set up, good photographers who shot
    the news would use a technique, hyper-focusing is the name (if I remember
    correctly), where the manually focused lens was focused using the focus
    scale. The photographer would take a light reading, and then he or she
    would choose an aperture and set the focal scale so that the infinity mark
    was on the farthest marker for the aperture they were using.

    Then, they would look at the nearest marker, and they would know that
    everything from a distance of, let's say ten feet infront of them would be
    in focus. Accordingly, they were using a very crude form of auto-focusing
    (or am I going to get in trouble for using that term incorrectly), one in
    which the lens didn't have to be moved, but the photographer didn't have to
    worry about jiggling the focusing ring back and forth.

    As far as focusing went, this system worked just fine, but you are still
    left with the dilemma of how do you frame the shot.

    Well, you couldn't use your eyes, because that meant holding the camera and,
    unless you were REALLY tall, all you got was the back of somebody's head.
    So, the photogs would hold the camera over their head and use their
    IMAGINATION to direct the lens towards the subject. This took a lot of
    practice, and the photographer usually ended up developing a sense not
    unlike that sense which drivers of automobiles develop whereby they know
    pretty accurately where their bumper is even though they can't see it. Most
    drivers can accurately parrallel park their cars with six inches or so
    without causing a great deal of damage, even though they can't actually see
    their bumpers edging ever closer to that of the cars in front and behind
    their own.

    But, like the driver who is parrallel parking without seeing where the
    bumper is (they try to give themselves a bit of a margin of safety and not
    actually touch the car in front or behind), photographers using this
    technique needed a safety zone too. They needed to use a film with fine
    enough grain and of sufficiently large size (35mm usually wasn't a
    candidate) to allow the darkroom crew to blow up the central image to the
    size that was needed -- cropping out the remainder. Don't forget, newspaper
    and magazine news shots usually aren't much larger than 2 or 3 inches
    squared.


    So, I have enhanced this ability, and I usually just point my camera in the
    direction of what I want to capture, and I use my imagination to produce a
    goal that I want to attain, and I draw upon my experience of photographic
    theory, lens design, local geography / layout, etc to realize the image I am
    trying to produce.

    That's it in a nutshell. What do you think?


    Is it possible? Is it art?

    How about you, John? Do you think all this is simply the result of research
    I've done in order to disguise myself as a troll?

    Happy,
    Dudley[/QUOTE]

    Hi, Dudley.

    I have diabetic retinopathy. I just turned 60, and until I was in my
    mid-forties my acuity was such that I did freelance photography, design
    and image editing in the graphic arts, and on weekends I was involved in
    competitive marksmanship, both rifle and pistol shooting.

    My condition involves leakage of the smallest capillaries into the
    retina. It affects my vision center. Many diabetics have problems on the
    periphery where it can be almost unnoticeable. Color vision, and large
    objects, are not problematic for me, but details and reading definitely
    are--and it varies from day to day.

    If I look at a fine grid pattern, the straight lines and right-angle
    intersections are quite distorted. If I enlarge type via a hand
    magnifier or an Opti-Visor, it helps a lot. I am able to do my day job,
    which involves a fair amount of reading both on paper and on a monitor,
    using a 3" hand magnifier, but it ain't easy. I work three 12-hour day
    shifts. On the other four days of the week my vision is good enough for
    photography and Photoshop maybe two of the four.

    Observers are probably pretty puzzled by a man wearing an Opti-Visor and
    banging away with a couple of Nikons, but I have never had a single
    question asked of me.

    Best of luck to you. Take care.
     
    Tully, Jan 24, 2008
  18. Sosumi

    PixelPix Guest

    And this relates to your Fantasy Land media scrum how?
    Having done it for many years professionally, I really couldn't be
    bothered now thanks.
     
    PixelPix, Jan 24, 2008
  19. Facinating Dudley, :)
    My Aunt lost her sight through Glaucoma (Ocular Hypertension)

    So I gather your using a text to speech reader to "read" the news groups.

    I'm glad you still practice your photography and I'm sure you capture some
    interesting images.

    By the way, the "Don" your refeering to in your reply is from my signature
    as it is a quote by Don Hirschberg, :)
     
    Atheist Chaplain, Jan 24, 2008
  20. Sosumi

    Dudley Hanks Guest

    "Oh, I don't know, If you pay attention, you might just learn
    And this relates to your Fantasy Land media scrum how?
    Did I say it stops there?
    The scrum was simply a little scenario to illustrate that sighted people use
    the same technique I use for taking pictures. My problem, is that because
    I'm blind, people just close their mind and say it can't be done.

    Your letdown is the effect I was aiming for.

    Is that it? Nothing more to it than that?

    Yep. And, Nope.

    If a sighted person can do it, it shouldn't be so unbelievable that a blind
    person can do it, and that initial disbelief barrier is eliminated.

    Thanks, Rusty. You said it all!

    Having done it for many years professionally, I really couldn't be
    bothered now thanks.

    Blindfolded?

    And, see above about placing objects and shadows without being able to see
    them...
    Hey, everybody needs a harsh critic. Great.

    But, the challenge still stands, do it blind-folded; then, come back and
    tell me there's nothing to it.

    So, I take it you are a skeptic? You don't think it's possible for a blind
    person to create art -- ie. if you can't see what you're doing, it's just a
    lucky shot)?

    By the way, what kind of camera did you use?

    Waiting To Ask You A Question About Perspective,
    Dudley
     
    Dudley Hanks, Jan 24, 2008
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