20D or 5D

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Rob, Aug 23, 2005.

  1. I blew it up to 200% in PS and I thought the very extreme corners were
    getting a little mushy, relative to the (very good) sharpness of the
    rest. Frankly, this is very much over-picky; at 100% it looks fine. I
    see the image has been downsampled to about 1.6 MP, it would be
    interesting to see the original.

    David
     
    David Littlewood, Aug 24, 2005
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  2. Thanks for your instructions.

    I found two shots with the EOS 1Ds mkII and 17-40 mm L at 17 mm, but
    only one with corner detail, this one: vb2c0024.jpg . It is not quite
    as bad as the landscape sample image at the EOS 5D website, but the
    edges are not sharp and it falls completely apart in the corners. For
    instance: The texture in the stone visible in bottom left corner more
    or less disintegrates.

    I also looked at the samples under the D2x and 20D reviews as well,
    but it didn't look as if he'd had access to the 12-24 mm DX Nikkor
    or the 10-22 mm EF-S.
    Thanks!
     
    Gisle Hannemyr, Aug 24, 2005
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  3. Rob

    Brian Baird Guest

    The one shot is wide open, the other (the shot of the Canon booth) is at
    f/9.5 and the corners aren't quite within the DOF for the shot.

    In any case, my biggest beef with the 5D sample shot isn't so much the
    corners as it is the general crappiness of the entire scene. The
    corners are going to be a little mushy on the 17-40 f/4L at 17mm - it's
    a $650 superwide!
     
    Brian Baird, Aug 24, 2005
  4. Let's see if we can find "14 frequently documented problems", and I'll
    skip feature and language additions for brevity
    (http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/eos20d/eos20d_firmware-e.html):
    Version 1.0.4/1.0.5 changes:
    - Fixes the problem of shutter release not working.
    - Improves reliability when using some CF cards.
    Version 1.1.0 changes:
    - The phenomenon of horizontal line noise appearing in images taken at
    high ISO settings while using the internal flash has been fixed. The
    issue with horizontal line noise appearing in shots taken at high ISO
    settings (ISO800, ISO1600, etc.) while using the internal flash has
    been fixed.
    Version 2.0.2 changes:
    Fixes bugs that occurred when using the EOS Capture application.

    Seems, we're some 10 frequently documented problems short. Are those
    user problems, problems with incompatible OEM hardware, operating in
    non-recommended conditions, RTFM ... ?
    Do you mean Wilhelm treats Epson and Canon in a completely different
    way?
    What makes you come to that conclusion? Are the DPreview tests biased?
    In what way?
    That's too bad. It looks like you had a lot of bad luck, since some of
    the problems you experienced that I read about earlier seem rather
    unfortunate incidents than frequently occurring/reported around the
    globe.
    [...]
    The human factor is an issue with service, as always.
    Since you make it sound predictable, it should be repeatable and
    fixable. I assume the lens was factored into the search for potential
    causes.
    Is that unique for your unit or is it a frequently reported issue? I
    know there was a manufacturing deficiency (a washer of some sort being
    left out at assembly) that could result in poor electrical contact
    between body and grip, but that was solved AFAIK (I don't use a grip
    on the 20D, so I can't verify myself).
    So it seems many of your bad experiences were with Canon Australia
    service, the human factor.
    If it helps, by all means do, but only if it is a frequently reported
    issue with other users as well. So far you seem/sound like the single
    most unfortunate 20D user in the world, and unhappy users are more
    vocal than happy ones, so you ust be *the* most unhappy one.
    Doesn't sound like an exclusive 20D problem. Maybe it's the harsh
    Australian climate that causes these things to happen?
    It must be a popular lens for a reason. The published MTF curves seem
    to match my experience, extreme corners at Full Frame are slightly
    softer than with the fixed focal length 24mm f/2.8 when stopped down
    to f/8, but better CA. Canon doesn't routinely publish CA and
    distortion figures, but for a zoom lens in this range, it doesn't seem
    that bad (and most is rather easy to fix in post-processing).
    Maybe film gear is more robust (and usually no AF) than electronics,
    for your type of use/environment?
    Why didn't you keep it on your Canon 20D then?
    When I thought about it I decided to go for FF lenses for the 20D.
    I also think that for most the 20D is all they need, and it's much
    less demanding on storage requirements. And I think, no I know, that
    when people start looking at FF sensor aray images they will think
    they are less sharp (disregarding the output magnification
    differences). And then there is inadequate sharpening skills, sigh.
    I'm glad you're happy with it, although the SD-10 produces much better
    behaved image quality (less visible aliasing and smoother bokeh, skin
    color remains an issue on both).

    Bart
     
    Bart van der Wolf, Aug 24, 2005
  5. Rob

    Alfred Molon Guest

    What's wrong with a built-in flash ?
     
    Alfred Molon, Aug 24, 2005
  6. The replacement for the 20D will use EF-S lenses so it will not be
    full-frame.

    There may be a new two-digit DSLR with Full-Frame someday but will not be a
    replacement for the 20D.

    I think with the 5D Canon is now committed to putting full-frame only in
    single-digit bodies for the next two years.
     
    Dave R knows who, Aug 24, 2005
  7. Rob

    pixby Guest

    Arrrggg. You bought a T90 too?
    Maybe I should have learnt from that experience what was in store 15
    years later?
     
    pixby, Aug 24, 2005
  8. What's wrong with a built-in flash ?


    I agree....I want to stick da camera in my back pocket and go baby!

    :)
     
    Ricardo Morte, Aug 24, 2005
  9. Rob

    pixby Guest

    I have some clarity on the issue of operating environment:
    According the ACCC (The Australian consumer watch dog):

    "If you purchase a product in Australia, from a duly authorized
    Australian agent of the manufacturer or the manufacturer themselves and
    the goods are *normally* for use in an environment outside the specified
    operating environment, you may be entitled to a full refund of the
    purchase price and an additional payment for loss of income if the goods
    were knowingly sold to someone relying on them for their income."

    I also spoke to my lawyer with a view to getting a refund on my Canon
    gear. He said:

    "Off the top of my head I'd say if Canon do the same as Minolta did when
    you got a refund for the digital print system... You'd be looking at
    about $40,000 in legal fees to get them to court. If your new Nikon gear
    is satisfactory, just sell the Canon stuff and replace it, it'll be
    cheaper than taking them on for a refund."

    The part I have the most trouble with is that laws exist to control the
    behavior of these huge multi-national companies but they have such
    massive financial resources, trying to force them to work within those
    laws is impossible for anyone without the same deep pockets.

    A duly authorized agent of Minolta sold me a digital print system last
    year which had an operating environment outside that in my print centre.
    It took 5 months and a legal bill which looked more like a serial number
    to get Minolta to authorize the return of the system and refund of my
    money.

    The fiasco with them was all about recommending and selling a product
    into a location which was totally outside it's ability to function...

    All you keyboard jockey's who think it's OK to sell something to work in
    an environment it is never designed to work in and the guy who says "no
    electronic equipment will work over 90% humidity"... Have some pretty
    odd principals.

    I wonder how you'd react to see half your Superannuation fund spent on a
    business full of "electronic equipment" not designed for the Geographic
    area it is sold in, yet recommended as suitable by the manufacturer who
    brought it into the country? Just wait till winter before the 3 month
    window of opportunity for use exists? Not likely when 80% of your income
    is in summer.

    Barbs like "Nikon Nut case" and "Dougie's off his meds again" are from
    wankers without a clue who probably don't have the balls to do anything
    but wait for the grass to grow so they can Mow it again.
     
    pixby, Aug 24, 2005
  10. Yes; I bought it a year or two before going AF, and it never got as much
    use as my A1 and AE1. Perhaps this was a contributory factor (others
    reported that the problem is exacerbated by lack of use) but a couple of
    years later the shutter was jammed. I paid Canon £100 or so to fix (or
    replace) it, but after another year or so of little use it jammed again.
    I gave up on it at that point. Nice looking paperweight!

    David
     
    David Littlewood, Aug 24, 2005
  11. Rob

    Mark² Guest

     
    Mark², Aug 24, 2005
  12. Rob

    Bill Hilton Guest

    Douglas (Pixby) writes ...
    As others pointed out, the Nikon consumer gear has the same operating
    temperature and humidity range so you'll run into similar problems with
    it. For you and anyone else who will use their cameras in extreme
    conditions I'd suggest buying the professional grade gear instead of
    the consumer grade stuff like the 20D. We have two 1D Mark II's and a
    1Ds and they are weather-sealed against moisture and dust, for example.
    Using them with the more recent Canon L lenses with the gasket at the
    mount and seals on the switches means I can shoot in light rain or snow
    without worry, something I've done maybe 12 days the past year in
    Alaska and San Diego (remember the January rains Mark M? ... I was
    there :) ... I would never try this with the consumer bodies.

    It will be the same for you with the Nikon consumer gear ... I don't
    know if something like the D2x is sealed or not (should be for $5,000
    US) but if it isn't you'll run into similar issues.
    If the "print centre" is indoors then it's surprising that the
    operating environment is out of spec. If it's outside or in an open
    mall (I seem to remember something like this on the pier at Cairns when
    I was there marlin fishing) then that's a different issue.

    Bill
     
    Bill Hilton, Aug 24, 2005
  13. Rob

    eawckyegcy Guest

    The Canon EOS-1D MkII specifications are:

    Operating Temperature Range: 0°C- 45°C / 32°F - 113°F
    Operating Humidity Range: 85% or less

    The only surprise would be if it was any different. Weather sealing
    tries to keep liquid water and such out of the camera. However, that
    big gaping hole at the front -- where you attach the lens -- is going
    to let in water vapour Just Fine.
     
    eawckyegcy, Aug 24, 2005
  14. Rob

    JPS Guest

    In message <x3MOe.8348$>,
    What is their broadcast range, compared to a popular photography
    magazine, or a salesperson?
    --
     
    JPS, Aug 25, 2005
  15. Rob

    JPS Guest

    In message <[email protected]>,
    There's no comparison. High-speed flash sync is a totally different
    thing than normal sync-flash. With the 550EX, the flash intensity at
    1/200 would be 4x as strong and down to about 1/12 the duration of the
    high-speed-sync at 1/250. High-speed sync flash is like a strobing
    ambient light during the period of exposure.

    I learned the hard way that enabling high-speed-sync and going 1/3
    faster on the shutter speed can mean a loss of sharpness with telephoto
    and flash. Think of it as supplementary light; not flash.
    --
     
    JPS, Aug 25, 2005
  16. Rob

    JPS Guest

    In message <>,
    "Under-expose" by two stops, losing two bits of bit depth.
    --
     
    JPS, Aug 25, 2005
  17. Rob

    Stacey Guest

    David Littlewood wrote:

    That isn't 100%. And for what that camera/lens costs, it should be sharper
    than that across the frame.

    Exactly.
     
    Stacey, Aug 25, 2005
  18. Rob

    Stacey Guest


    Go look at the reviews for the 16-35 f2.8. The ones I've read say this F4
    lens is at least as sharp if not sharper in the center of the frame and the
    corners ARE sharper.

    Next excuse?
     
    Stacey, Aug 25, 2005
  19. Rob

    JPS Guest

    In message <>,
    Like the tiny, worthless images they have on the pages with the MTF
    charts for various cameras?

    I would think the images were chosen based on how they looked as a
    thumbnail, and had little to do with full-res concerns.
    --
     
    JPS, Aug 25, 2005
  20. Rob

    JPS Guest

    In message <[email protected]>,
    It's called "logic".
    --
     
    JPS, Aug 25, 2005
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