Zone System with Digital cameras

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Satish K, Nov 4, 2003.

  1. Satish K

    Satish K Guest

    Hi,

    I am sort of newbie in photography. I recently took a basic photography
    class. The teacher emphasized the importance of the "Zone System" proposed
    by Ansel Adams. Does anyone in this group learned or makes use of it in
    practice when taking pictures with digital camera? Just curious.

    - Satish
    Satish K, Nov 4, 2003
    #1
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  2. Satish K

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Satish K <> wrote:
    >I am sort of newbie in photography. I recently took a basic photography
    >class. The teacher emphasized the importance of the "Zone System" proposed
    >by Ansel Adams. Does anyone in this group learned or makes use of it in
    >practice when taking pictures with digital camera? Just curious.


    Not only is it a good idea, it's alot easier with a good digital camera
    because you can check the results so much faster.

    And, as an aside, one of the best descriptions I've seen on the zone
    system is here: http://www.photodo.com/nav/artindex.html

    --
    Ray Fischer
    Ray Fischer, Nov 4, 2003
    #2
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  3. Satish K

    Tony Spadaro Guest

    The zone system is about exposing and processing film plus doiing the same
    to prints -- quite frankly it has no relevence to digital shooting.
    The zones however are another matter. It is well worth while to know how
    to read the zones in order to come up with the best exposure for a given
    purpose (if this sounds general - it is) So it is well worth learning the
    zones and playing with them -- get a grey card and/or a zone step card to
    use for practice -- but don't waste the next five years studying the
    "system".

    --
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
    home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
    The Improved Links Pages are at
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
    A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
    "Satish K" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hi,
    >
    > I am sort of newbie in photography. I recently took a basic photography
    > class. The teacher emphasized the importance of the "Zone System" proposed
    > by Ansel Adams. Does anyone in this group learned or makes use of it in
    > practice when taking pictures with digital camera? Just curious.
    >
    > - Satish
    >
    >
    Tony Spadaro, Nov 4, 2003
    #3
  4. Satish K

    Satish K Guest

    Thanks Ray for the link. If you don't mind I would like to ask additional
    question. As I understand that black and white film has 11 zones (0 through
    X) zones, color film has eight (0 through vii) and digital (ccd) has only
    six (0 through v)

    To me that sounds like a pretty narrow range for digital camera to play with
    when it comes to exposure? Is it correct to say that I could take photos at
    many distinct range of exposures with b&w film camera than with a digital
    camera? This sounds too restrictive to me. Is that why many people who
    practice fine art photography prefer shooting with b&w film cameras?

    Thanks,

    - Satish


    "Ray Fischer" <> wrote in message
    news:bo7e8o$2an$...
    > Satish K <> wrote:
    > >I am sort of newbie in photography. I recently took a basic photography
    > >class. The teacher emphasized the importance of the "Zone System"

    proposed
    > >by Ansel Adams. Does anyone in this group learned or makes use of it in
    > >practice when taking pictures with digital camera? Just curious.

    >
    > Not only is it a good idea, it's alot easier with a good digital camera
    > because you can check the results so much faster.
    >
    > And, as an aside, one of the best descriptions I've seen on the zone
    > system is here: http://www.photodo.com/nav/artindex.html
    >
    > --
    > Ray Fischer
    >
    >
    Satish K, Nov 4, 2003
    #4
  5. Satish K

    Satish K Guest

    Actually my teacher did skip the part that talks about applying it to the
    prints. He mostly concentrated on the zones as it relates to exposure and
    it's usage with different films (color, b&w, color transparency and ccd).
    Also, I am sure I am not at the level of commitment to start applying it to
    printing process.

    - Satish

    "Tony Spadaro" <> wrote in message
    news:BhHpb.52648$...
    > The zone system is about exposing and processing film plus doiing the

    same
    > to prints -- quite frankly it has no relevence to digital shooting.
    > The zones however are another matter. It is well worth while to know

    how
    > to read the zones in order to come up with the best exposure for a given
    > purpose (if this sounds general - it is) So it is well worth learning the
    > zones and playing with them -- get a grey card and/or a zone step card to
    > use for practice -- but don't waste the next five years studying the
    > "system".
    >
    > --
    > http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
    > home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
    > The Improved Links Pages are at
    > http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
    > A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
    > http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
    > "Satish K" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Hi,
    > >
    > > I am sort of newbie in photography. I recently took a basic photography
    > > class. The teacher emphasized the importance of the "Zone System"

    proposed
    > > by Ansel Adams. Does anyone in this group learned or makes use of it in
    > > practice when taking pictures with digital camera? Just curious.
    > >
    > > - Satish
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
    Satish K, Nov 4, 2003
    #5
  6. "Satish K" <> writes:
    >Thanks Ray for the link. If you don't mind I would like to ask additional
    >question. As I understand that black and white film has 11 zones (0 through
    >X) zones, color film has eight (0 through vii) and digital (ccd) has only
    >six (0 through v)


    There are many digital cameras, and in general the ones with large
    sensors (e.g. DSLRs) have a larger useful brightness range than the
    point&shoot class cameras with small sensors.

    The right way to answer the question is to pick a camera and calibrate
    it yourself.

    >To me that sounds like a pretty narrow range for digital camera to play with
    >when it comes to exposure? Is it correct to say that I could take photos at
    >many distinct range of exposures with b&w film camera than with a digital
    >camera? This sounds too restrictive to me. Is that why many people who
    >practice fine art photography prefer shooting with b&w film cameras?


    The range you speak of is mainly useful for capturing real scenes that
    have a large brightness range. For this, a dSLR *or* shooting and then
    scanning film should give better results than an inexpensive digicam.

    There are various reasons people shoot B&W film. They may like the
    fact that B&W is more abstract than colour. They may like the ability
    to "push" or "pull" process the negative to change its contrast, or the
    fact that printing paper is available in different contrast grades or
    multigrade. They may just like the really deep dark blacks that good
    B&W paper gives.

    Dave
    Dave Martindale, Nov 4, 2003
    #6
  7. The answer to your question is an unqualified Yes and No.

    The general theory and some of the practice of the zone system certainly
    applies to digital. However you are working with a new tool and exactly how
    the theory applies is not the same

    However the knowledge contained in the zone system can be applied to
    several places in the digital world.

    So far I have not seen a work with a complete serious look at the
    possibilities, but I am sure we will in time.

    --
    Joseph E. Meehan

    26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math


    "Satish K" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hi,
    >
    > I am sort of newbie in photography. I recently took a basic photography
    > class. The teacher emphasized the importance of the "Zone System" proposed
    > by Ansel Adams. Does anyone in this group learned or makes use of it in
    > practice when taking pictures with digital camera? Just curious.
    >
    > - Satish
    >
    >
    Joseph Meehan, Nov 4, 2003
    #7
  8. Satish K wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I am sort of newbie in photography. I recently took a basic photography
    > class. The teacher emphasized the importance of the "Zone System" proposed
    > by Ansel Adams. Does anyone in this group learned or makes use of it in
    > practice when taking pictures with digital camera? Just curious.


    Just bracket. Good digital cameras have an auto function that enables
    you to automatically and quickly bracket your exposure. You can also
    take practically unlimited exposures, study the results and/or the
    histograms, and delete the bad ones.

    What the hell.

    Gary Eickmeier
    Gary Eickmeier, Nov 4, 2003
    #8
  9. Satish K

    Charlie Ih Guest

    To reproduce a "faithful" scene (or image), the overall "gamma" of
    the system should be 1. In the traditional film photography (particularly,
    B/W), the gamma of the negative is purposely made very low (e.g. 0.5
    or so). This way you can catch a great dynamic range with less precise
    exposures (in zones, I am not sure). When you make the
    final prints, you can choose a high gamma paper (e.g. 2), so the
    final prints look "real".

    In digital photography, you can use bracketing and PhotoShop to
    basically achieve the same purpose.


    In article <pTOpb.157834$>,
    Gary Eickmeier <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >Satish K wrote:
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I am sort of newbie in photography. I recently took a basic photography
    >> class. The teacher emphasized the importance of the "Zone System" proposed
    >> by Ansel Adams. Does anyone in this group learned or makes use of it in
    >> practice when taking pictures with digital camera? Just curious.

    >
    >Just bracket. Good digital cameras have an auto function that enables
    >you to automatically and quickly bracket your exposure. You can also
    >take practically unlimited exposures, study the results and/or the
    >histograms, and delete the bad ones.
    >
    >What the hell.
    >
    >Gary Eickmeier
    >



    --
    Charles S. Ih
    302-831-8173, FAX 302-831-4316
    Charlie Ih, Nov 4, 2003
    #9
  10. Satish K

    Tony Spadaro Guest

    Not just the prints. THere is no point to a "system" that involves
    processing at all. The zone system is about invididually exposing and
    processing sheet film - it doesn't even relate all that well to roll film.
    IT is a waste of time and effort for digital. The printing process with
    digital is either a matter of lab prints -- believe me there is no lab in
    the world that uses the zone system to print from digital -- or a matter of
    printing your own. Since it is easy to manipulate the original file in many
    ways, there is no need for the complications of the zone system there
    either.

    --
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
    home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
    The Improved Links Pages are at
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
    A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
    "Satish K" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Actually my teacher did skip the part that talks about applying it to the
    > prints. He mostly concentrated on the zones as it relates to exposure and
    > it's usage with different films (color, b&w, color transparency and ccd).
    > Also, I am sure I am not at the level of commitment to start applying it

    to
    > printing process.
    >
    > - Satish
    >
    > "Tony Spadaro" <> wrote in message
    > news:BhHpb.52648$...
    > > The zone system is about exposing and processing film plus doiing the

    > same
    > > to prints -- quite frankly it has no relevence to digital shooting.
    > > The zones however are another matter. It is well worth while to know

    > how
    > > to read the zones in order to come up with the best exposure for a given
    > > purpose (if this sounds general - it is) So it is well worth learning

    the
    > > zones and playing with them -- get a grey card and/or a zone step card

    to
    > > use for practice -- but don't waste the next five years studying the
    > > "system".
    > >
    > > --
    > > http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
    > > home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
    > > The Improved Links Pages are at
    > > http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
    > > A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
    > > http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
    > > "Satish K" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > > > Hi,
    > > >
    > > > I am sort of newbie in photography. I recently took a basic

    photography
    > > > class. The teacher emphasized the importance of the "Zone System"

    > proposed
    > > > by Ansel Adams. Does anyone in this group learned or makes use of it

    in
    > > > practice when taking pictures with digital camera? Just curious.
    > > >
    > > > - Satish
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
    Tony Spadaro, Nov 4, 2003
    #10
  11. "Satish K" <> writes:

    > I am sort of newbie in photography. I recently took a basic photography
    > class. The teacher emphasized the importance of the "Zone System" proposed
    > by Ansel Adams. Does anyone in this group learned or makes use of it in
    > practice when taking pictures with digital camera? Just curious.


    Well, not the parts involving special processing. But the zone system
    has been my basic approach to exposure, in 35mm and elsewhere, for 20
    or so years, and I use the same basic approach for digital.

    I haven't investigated the zone-system potential of the raw image
    processing controls. Hadn't thought of it until replying to your
    message. Thanks for raising the issue!
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <>, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <dragaera.info/>
    David Dyer-Bennet, Nov 4, 2003
    #11
  12. Satish K

    Tom Nelson Guest

    In article <>, Satish K
    <> wrote:
    "Satish K" <> writes:
    > As I understand that black and white film has 11 zones (0 through
    > X) zones, color film has eight (0 through vii) and digital (ccd) has only
    > six (0 through v)
    >
    > To me that sounds like a pretty narrow range for digital camera to play with
    > when it comes to exposure?


    It's best to think about it in terms of reproducing texture in
    highlights and shadows. B/W film has a 5-zone range (Zone III-VII).
    Color transparency film has a 4 stop range (III 1/2 - VI 1/2). I
    haven't tested it rigorously but I'd say digital cameras have about a 4
    stop range as well.
    Tom Nelson
    Tom Nelson Photography
    Tom Nelson, Nov 4, 2003
    #12
  13. Lemme stick my face in here and ask a few questions...

    WAY BACK in the "old days" I used the zone system to a greater or lesser extent
    by spot metering (off the camera of course), and playing with development time.

    Now I have an S2 and I TRY to do a simplified version. Here's what I've been
    doing:

    First set a custom white balance for the scene where I'll be shooting.

    Figure out what looks interesting and use the spot meter to get a reading on the
    darkest part of the image where I want any visible detail. Do the same thing
    with the brightest part of theimage where I want detail. HOPEFULLY, these are
    within 5 stops of one another. I ASSUME my darkest spot is zone 3 (or MAYBE
    zone 2), and my brightest is zone 7 (I HOPEFULLY won't blow out the highlights)
    which in theory gives me 6 stops difference... This USUALLY gives me a range I
    can work in and I"ll open up 2 stops from the dark reading, shoot, open a stop,
    shoot, and open another, and shoot... GENERALLY, one of these will be
    reasonably good...

    I've noticed that if I'm wrong I'll typically lose detail in the highlights
    before I lose it in the shadows...

    Does the above SEEM a reasonable implementation?

    How does the histogram compare to zones? Are the ends of the histogram 0 and
    10? 1 or 2 and 9? Where does the SLIGHT detail in the shadows fall within the
    histogram? Where do the highlights? Do I mentally divide the histogram into 4,
    5, 6, or 7 zones?

    What's interesting is that except in very odd situations, just throwing the S2
    into matrix meter mode will be within a half stop of where I figure I want to
    be. But, 30 years of doing it the other way usually forces me to check both
    extremes when time allows.

    I DO have trouble though, with things like a slightly off-white water lilly on
    very black water with very dark leaves... Its REALLY hard not to blow out the
    flower even with the spot metering... I this case I usually shoot several
    additional exposures on the underexposed side to be safe...
    dperez@juno_nospam.com, Nov 5, 2003
    #13
  14. Satish K

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Satish K <> wrote:
    >Thanks Ray for the link. If you don't mind I would like to ask additional
    >question. As I understand that black and white film has 11 zones (0 through
    >X) zones, color film has eight (0 through vii) and digital (ccd) has only
    >six (0 through v)


    According to whom? One nice thing about a digital camera is that it's
    easy to just see how many zones you've got. I set a "normal" exposure
    then took 10 pictures, 5 with successively less exposure and 5 with
    increasing exposure. I came up with about 8 1/2 zones.

    >To me that sounds like a pretty narrow range for digital camera to play with
    >when it comes to exposure? Is it correct to say that I could take photos at
    >many distinct range of exposures with b&w film camera than with a digital
    >camera? This sounds too restrictive to me. Is that why many people who
    >practice fine art photography prefer shooting with b&w film cameras?


    I always thought is was because color film & paper was such a pain in
    the ass to process.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    Ray Fischer, Nov 5, 2003
    #14
  15. Satish K

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Tony Spadaro <> wrote:
    > The zone system is about exposing and processing film plus doiing the same
    >to prints -- quite frankly it has no relevence to digital shooting.


    It has just as much relevance to digital.

    > The zones however are another matter. It is well worth while to know how
    >to read the zones in order to come up with the best exposure for a given
    >purpose (if this sounds general - it is) So it is well worth learning the
    >zones and playing with them -- get a grey card and/or a zone step card to
    >use for practice -- but don't waste the next five years studying the
    >"system".


    It wouldn't take five years. Half an hour.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    Ray Fischer, Nov 5, 2003
    #15
  16. Satish K

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Gary Eickmeier <> wrote:
    >Satish K wrote:


    >> I am sort of newbie in photography. I recently took a basic photography
    >> class. The teacher emphasized the importance of the "Zone System" proposed
    >> by Ansel Adams. Does anyone in this group learned or makes use of it in
    >> practice when taking pictures with digital camera? Just curious.

    >
    >Just bracket. Good digital cameras have an auto function that enables
    >you to automatically and quickly bracket your exposure. You can also
    >take practically unlimited exposures, study the results and/or the
    >histograms, and delete the bad ones.


    Bracketing alone is not sufficient because you can end up with three
    pictures, all of which are over/under exposed.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    Ray Fischer, Nov 5, 2003
    #16
  17. Satish K

    Steve Guest

    On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 06:02:09 GMT, Tony Spadaro wrote:

    > The zone system is about exposing and processing film plus doiing the same
    > to prints -- quite frankly it has no relevence to digital shooting.
    > The zones however are another matter. It is well worth while to know how
    > to read the zones in order to come up with the best exposure for a given
    > purpose (if this sounds general - it is) So it is well worth learning the
    > zones and playing with them -- get a grey card and/or a zone step card to
    > use for practice -- but don't waste the next five years studying the
    > "system".


    Absolutely right. People get very confused about the Zone System and about
    exposure zones in general. The latter are simply about visualising how the
    brightness range in the subject will map to the brightness range in the
    image, and is nothing to do with Ansel Adams. IMHO, the full-blown Zone
    System, which requires individual development of separate frames, has long
    been a redundant process in the age of high-quality exposure meters. It
    tends to be favoured by people who are more interested in the processes of
    photography than in taking interesting photographs.

    If you want to learn about exposure generally, get 'Perfect Exposure' by
    Roger Hicks. It doesn't deal with digital, but it is a no-nonsense,
    practical approach to understanding exposure which you can carry over into
    digital work.

    However, people do get way too hung-up on exposure, believing it to be some
    black art that requires a 'master' like Ansel Adams to show them the way.
    This ain't true. As you're using digital, you can afford to shoot
    thousands, millions of pictures, so experiment and bracket exposures,
    making a note of what you're doing. You'll benefit far more than from
    trying to apply some anachronistic and irrelevant dogma from the past.
    Steve, Nov 5, 2003
    #17
  18. Satish K

    Tony Spadaro Guest

    In half an hour one can learn the zones - calibrating your meters alone
    would take weeks. If you don't know anything about the zone system, you
    should keep your ignorance to yourself.

    --
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
    home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
    The Improved Links Pages are at
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
    A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
    "Ray Fischer" <> wrote in message
    news:boa20a$8pg$...
    > Tony Spadaro <> wrote:
    > > The zone system is about exposing and processing film plus doiing the

    same
    > >to prints -- quite frankly it has no relevence to digital shooting.

    >
    > It has just as much relevance to digital.
    >
    > > The zones however are another matter. It is well worth while to know

    how
    > >to read the zones in order to come up with the best exposure for a given
    > >purpose (if this sounds general - it is) So it is well worth learning the
    > >zones and playing with them -- get a grey card and/or a zone step card to
    > >use for practice -- but don't waste the next five years studying the
    > >"system".

    >
    > It wouldn't take five years. Half an hour.
    >
    > --
    > Ray Fischer
    >
    >
    Tony Spadaro, Nov 5, 2003
    #18
  19. Satish K

    Tony Spadaro Guest

    "It tends to be favoured by people who are more interested in the processes
    of photography than in taking interesting photographs."

    Well said - and my opinion too. People like Minor White, who never took
    a single interesting image after they got interested in "the system". Photo
    Techniques is a magazine devoted to the process people.


    --
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
    home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
    The Improved Links Pages are at
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
    A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
    "Steve" <> wrote in message
    news:prti9e2uq1mq$.1nb61w7qqsi5v$...
    > On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 06:02:09 GMT, Tony Spadaro wrote:
    >
    > > The zone system is about exposing and processing film plus doiing the

    same
    > > to prints -- quite frankly it has no relevence to digital shooting.
    > > The zones however are another matter. It is well worth while to know

    how
    > > to read the zones in order to come up with the best exposure for a given
    > > purpose (if this sounds general - it is) So it is well worth learning

    the
    > > zones and playing with them -- get a grey card and/or a zone step card

    to
    > > use for practice -- but don't waste the next five years studying the
    > > "system".

    >
    > Absolutely right. People get very confused about the Zone System and about
    > exposure zones in general. The latter are simply about visualising how the
    > brightness range in the subject will map to the brightness range in the
    > image, and is nothing to do with Ansel Adams. IMHO, the full-blown Zone
    > System, which requires individual development of separate frames, has long
    > been a redundant process in the age of high-quality exposure meters. It
    > tends to be favoured by people who are more interested in the processes of
    > photography than in taking interesting photographs.
    >
    > If you want to learn about exposure generally, get 'Perfect Exposure' by
    > Roger Hicks. It doesn't deal with digital, but it is a no-nonsense,
    > practical approach to understanding exposure which you can carry over into
    > digital work.
    >
    > However, people do get way too hung-up on exposure, believing it to be

    some
    > black art that requires a 'master' like Ansel Adams to show them the way.
    > This ain't true. As you're using digital, you can afford to shoot
    > thousands, millions of pictures, so experiment and bracket exposures,
    > making a note of what you're doing. You'll benefit far more than from
    > trying to apply some anachronistic and irrelevant dogma from the past.
    Tony Spadaro, Nov 6, 2003
    #19
  20. Satish K

    Guest

    Steve <> wrote:

    > This ain't true. As you're using digital, you can afford to shoot
    > thousands, millions of pictures,


    Well, at least until your shutter mechanism fails...

    > so experiment and bracket exposures,
    > making a note of what you're doing.


    You don't even need to take notes: the camera does that too.

    But you won't need any notes anyways. The signifigantly tighter
    feedback loop with a digital camera means the learning/training rate
    is much faster. At least as far as technique goes...
    , Nov 6, 2003
    #20
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