You Mean I Won't Be GEtting Paid More for Getting This Cert?

Discussion in 'MCSE' started by TBone, Oct 22, 2007.

  1. TBone

    TBone Guest

    TBone, Oct 22, 2007
    #1
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  2. "Frisbee®" <> wrote in message
    news:%...
    > "TBone" <reply2me@thenewsgroup> wrote in message
    > news:Xns99D1734789316replyhere@207.46.248.16...
    >> Interesting. New study shows uncertified workers are geting paid more...
    >>
    >> http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/networkhub/you-mean-i-wont-get-
    >> paid-more-for-getting-this-cert/?track=NL-81&ad=610276&asrc=EM_USC_2423132
    >> &uid=5959721
    >>
    >> or
    >>
    >> http://tinyurl.com/yvmvn5

    >
    > Without reading it, it's misleading.
    >
    > Almost every salary survey I've ever read implies that people with 2-year
    > college degrees (Hi!) make less than those with only a high school
    > education in IT. There's a logical explanation for this, however. The
    > vast majority of those with only a HS degree went directly into IT in the
    > late 70's to early 80's and have been working for decades. Of course
    > they're going to be making more, the 2-year degrees are only comparatively
    > recent in nature in regards to IT.
    >
    > I suspect the same thing applies here. Those who have been working
    > forever in IT really don't need to get certified. Generally only
    > entry-level people are encouraged to get certification (ironic, eh?).
    >
    > Skewing the results of statistics is an art form.
    >
    > I should get certified in it.
    >
    > Or maybe a PhD in it.
    >
    > --
    > Fris "Phoney Diploma" bee®, MCNGP #13
    >
    > The MCNGP Team - We're here to help! http://www.mcngp.com
    > Certaholics: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/certaholics
    >
    >


    Great analysis... however, can you explain the one year trend of uncertified
    workers increasing in pay, where as certified workers are decreasing in pay?
    The first paragraph in the article says this:

    "They have seen the average premium pay for uncertified workers increase 8%
    and decrease 2.3% for certified engineers in the past year."

    Once people are employed, shouldn't wages increase or decrease at the same
    rate unless one if more valuable than the other?
     
    Politician Spock, Oct 22, 2007
    #2
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  3. TBone

    Frisbee® Guest

    "Politician Spock" <> wrote in message
    news:471ccb75$0$32466$...
    > "Frisbee®" <> wrote in message
    > news:%...
    >> "TBone" <reply2me@thenewsgroup> wrote in message
    >> news:Xns99D1734789316replyhere@207.46.248.16...
    >>> Interesting. New study shows uncertified workers are geting paid more...
    >>>
    >>> http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/networkhub/you-mean-i-wont-get-
    >>> paid-more-for-getting-this-cert/?track=NL-81&ad=610276&asrc=EM_USC_2423132
    >>> &uid=5959721
    >>>
    >>> or
    >>>
    >>> http://tinyurl.com/yvmvn5

    >>
    >> Without reading it, it's misleading.
    >>
    >> Almost every salary survey I've ever read implies that people with 2-year
    >> college degrees (Hi!) make less than those with only a high school
    >> education in IT. There's a logical explanation for this, however. The
    >> vast majority of those with only a HS degree went directly into IT in the
    >> late 70's to early 80's and have been working for decades. Of course
    >> they're going to be making more, the 2-year degrees are only
    >> comparatively recent in nature in regards to IT.
    >>
    >> I suspect the same thing applies here. Those who have been working
    >> forever in IT really don't need to get certified. Generally only
    >> entry-level people are encouraged to get certification (ironic, eh?).
    >>
    >> Skewing the results of statistics is an art form.
    >>
    >> I should get certified in it.
    >>
    >> Or maybe a PhD in it.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Fris "Phoney Diploma" bee®, MCNGP #13
    >>
    >> The MCNGP Team - We're here to help! http://www.mcngp.com
    >> Certaholics: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/certaholics
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Great analysis... however, can you explain the one year trend of
    > uncertified workers increasing in pay, where as certified workers are
    > decreasing in pay? The first paragraph in the article says this:
    >
    > "They have seen the average premium pay for uncertified workers increase
    > 8% and decrease 2.3% for certified engineers in the past year."
    >
    > Once people are employed, shouldn't wages increase or decrease at the same
    > rate unless one if more valuable than the other?


    Nah, what happened is that the people who are certified are EXPERTS at what
    they do and they have a LOT more free time to answer surveys. Thus skewing
    the numbers.
     
    Frisbee®, Oct 22, 2007
    #3
  4. TBone

    Jtyc Guest

    > Almost every salary survey I've ever read implies that people with 2-year
    > college degrees (Hi!) make less than those with only a high school
    > education in IT. There's a logical explanation for this, however. The
    > vast majority of those with only a HS degree went directly into IT in the
    > late 70's to early 80's and have been working for decades. Of course
    > they're going to be making more, the 2-year degrees are only comparatively
    > recent in nature in regards to IT.


    I disagree with your hypothisis. I have known a few people in IT were this
    is not the case but the exact opposite.
     
    Jtyc, Oct 22, 2007
    #4
  5. TBone

    John R Guest

    "Politician Spock" <> wrote in message
    news:471ccb75$0$32466$...
    > "Frisbee®" <> wrote in message
    > news:%...
    >> "TBone" <reply2me@thenewsgroup> wrote in message
    >> news:Xns99D1734789316replyhere@207.46.248.16...
    >>> Interesting. New study shows uncertified workers are geting paid more...
    >>>
    >>> http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/networkhub/you-mean-i-wont-get-
    >>> paid-more-for-getting-this-cert/?track=NL-81&ad=610276&asrc=EM_USC_2423132
    >>> &uid=5959721
    >>>
    >>> or
    >>>
    >>> http://tinyurl.com/yvmvn5

    >>
    >> Without reading it, it's misleading.
    >>
    >> Almost every salary survey I've ever read implies that people with 2-year
    >> college degrees (Hi!) make less than those with only a high school
    >> education in IT. There's a logical explanation for this, however. The
    >> vast majority of those with only a HS degree went directly into IT in the
    >> late 70's to early 80's and have been working for decades. Of course
    >> they're going to be making more, the 2-year degrees are only
    >> comparatively recent in nature in regards to IT.
    >>
    >> I suspect the same thing applies here. Those who have been working
    >> forever in IT really don't need to get certified. Generally only
    >> entry-level people are encouraged to get certification (ironic, eh?).
    >>
    >> Skewing the results of statistics is an art form.
    >>
    >> I should get certified in it.
    >>
    >> Or maybe a PhD in it.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Fris "Phoney Diploma" bee®, MCNGP #13
    >>
    >> The MCNGP Team - We're here to help! http://www.mcngp.com
    >> Certaholics: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/certaholics
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Great analysis... however, can you explain the one year trend of
    > uncertified workers increasing in pay, where as certified workers are
    > decreasing in pay? The first paragraph in the article says this:
    >
    > "They have seen the average premium pay for uncertified workers increase
    > 8% and decrease 2.3% for certified engineers in the past year."
    >
    > Once people are employed, shouldn't wages increase or decrease at the same
    > rate unless one if more valuable than the other?
    >


    My guess would be that you might be comparing 'those with experience' to
    'those with entry level certifications'. A recent survey by Global
    Knowledge showed that those with Microsoft certs made on average less than
    those who were uncertified. When you consider however that a lot of
    Microsoft certs are considered entry level certs, that would certainly skew
    it. In fact, that is one of the conculsions that the Global Knowledge thing
    showed.

    http://images.globalknowledge.com/wwwimages/pdfs/2007_SalaryReport.pdf

    John R
     
    John R, Oct 22, 2007
    #5
  6. TBone

    Consultant Guest

    i graduated kindergarten and look at me now!

    "Jtyc" <> wrote in message
    news:%...
    >> Almost every salary survey I've ever read implies that people with 2-year
    >> college degrees (Hi!) make less than those with only a high school
    >> education in IT. There's a logical explanation for this, however. The
    >> vast majority of those with only a HS degree went directly into IT in the
    >> late 70's to early 80's and have been working for decades. Of course
    >> they're going to be making more, the 2-year degrees are only
    >> comparatively recent in nature in regards to IT.

    >
    > I disagree with your hypothisis. I have known a few people in IT were
    > this is not the case but the exact opposite.
     
    Consultant, Oct 22, 2007
    #6
  7. TBone

    Frisbee® Guest

    "Consultant" <> wrote in message
    news:OZhk$...
    >i graduated kindergarten and look at me now!


    I think we should have a bumper snicker made up that says:

    "Everything I needed to know about the Intarwebs I learned from the MCNGP"

    It would have to be a really big bumper, though.
     
    Frisbee®, Oct 22, 2007
    #7
  8. TBone

    TBone Guest

    And on the eigth day "Frisbee®" <> did cause the
    electrons to come together and form the following words:

    > I suspect the same thing applies here. Those who have been working
    > forever in IT really don't need to get certified. Generally only
    > entry-level people are encouraged to get certification (ironic, eh?).


    Now that I finally managed to load the actual report (@#$% wireless
    internet) I see what they are saying is that non-certified people are
    being paying a higher *premium* for their skills than certified people.
    Its not a measurement of experience, but how much people are being paid
    for their knowledge of a particular skill (all 300+ of them are listed
    in the report).

    Maybe that still proves the point that certs (or at least the MS ones)
    only prove you know the theory and experience is separate from that.

    > Skewing the results of statistics is an art form.


    Oh come on, we all know the 42% of statistics are made up.

    -------

    T-Bone
    MCNGP XL
     
    TBone, Oct 22, 2007
    #8
  9. "TBone" <reply2me@thenewsgroup> wrote in message
    news:Xns99D19F56A7E43replyhere@207.46.248.16...
    >
    > Oh come on, we all know the 42% of statistics are made up.
    >


    True... but you can always trust the use of fractions.
     
    Politician Spock, Oct 22, 2007
    #9
  10. TBone

    astyles Guest

    I am not even going to click on this link and read such a story.
    Anyone who tells you that an certified professional is going to make
    less than a un-certified professional has no idea what they are
    talking about. Explain to me WHY such a thing would be true?

    I'm not going to compare getting certified to a college degree because
    that isn't really an apples to apples comparision. College degree vs.
    experience- now there is a just comparison.

    Don't believe everything you read. Talk to veterans in the industry,
    talk to people at staffing firms and HR. Ask those people about jobs
    you actually want to get- not about general IT. If you want to be a
    manager go to college. If you want to be an engineer, get
    certifications and KNOW what you are talking about. That is my
    experience and I wouldn't have it any other way. You get paid for what
    you know this way- bottom line.

    P.s. Don't believe everything you read.



    On Oct 22, 11:09 am, "Politician Spock" <> wrote:
    > "Frisbee®" <> wrote in message
    >
    > news:%...
    >
    >
    >
    > > "TBone" <reply2me@thenewsgroup> wrote in message
    > >news:Xns99D1734789316replyhere@207.46.248.16...
    > >> Interesting. New study shows uncertified workers are geting paid more....

    >
    > >>http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/networkhub/you-mean-i-wont-...
    > >> paid-more-for-getting-this-cert/?track=NL-81&ad=610276&asrc=EM_USC_2423132
    > >> &uid=5959721

    >
    > >> or

    >
    > >>http://tinyurl.com/yvmvn5

    >
    > > Without reading it, it's misleading.

    >
    > > Almost every salary survey I've ever read implies that people with 2-year
    > > college degrees (Hi!) make less than those with only a high school
    > > education in IT. There's a logical explanation for this, however. The
    > > vast majority of those with only a HS degree went directly into IT in the
    > > late 70's to early 80's and have been working for decades. Of course
    > > they're going to be making more, the 2-year degrees are only comparatively
    > > recent in nature in regards to IT.

    >
    > > I suspect the same thing applies here. Those who have been working
    > > forever in IT really don't need to get certified. Generally only
    > > entry-level people are encouraged to get certification (ironic, eh?).

    >
    > > Skewing the results of statistics is an art form.

    >
    > > I should get certified in it.

    >
    > > Or maybe a PhD in it.

    >
    > > --
    > > Fris "Phoney Diploma" bee®, MCNGP #13

    >
    > > The MCNGP Team - We're here to help!http://www.mcngp.com
    > > Certaholics:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/certaholics

    >
    > Great analysis... however, can you explain the one year trend of uncertified
    > workers increasing in pay, where as certified workers are decreasing in pay?
    > The first paragraph in the article says this:
    >
    > "They have seen the average premium pay for uncertified workers increase 8%
    > and decrease 2.3% for certified engineers in the past year."
    >
    > Once people are employed, shouldn't wages increase or decrease at the same
    > rate unless one if more valuable than the other?
     
    astyles, Oct 29, 2007
    #10
  11. TBone

    kpg* Guest

    > P.s. Don't believe everything you read.

    I don't believe a word you say.
     
    kpg*, Oct 29, 2007
    #11
  12. "astyles" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > If you want to be a manager go to college. If you want to be an engineer,
    > get certifications and KNOW what you are talking about.


    I think a great argument can be made that you got that backwards. It's
    pretty important that engineers go to college. Managers?... meh... not so
    much.
     
    Politician Spock, Oct 30, 2007
    #12
  13. TBone

    catwalker63 Guest

    "Politician Spock" <> prattled ceaselessly in
    news:47268604$0$20568$:

    > "astyles" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >> If you want to be a manager go to college. If you want to be an
    >> engineer, get certifications and KNOW what you are talking about.

    >
    > I think a great argument can be made that you got that backwards. It's
    > pretty important that engineers go to college. Managers?... meh... not
    > so much.
    >
    >
    >


    In my experience, it's the incompetent who become managers. But that's
    usually in larger organization where the sh!t rises to the top.

    --
    Catwalker
    MCNGP #43
    www.mcngp.com
    "Definitely not wearing any underwear."
     
    catwalker63, Oct 30, 2007
    #13
  14. TBone

    TBone Guest

    And on the eigth day astyles <> did cause the
    electrons to come together and form the following words:

    > Anyone who tells you that an certified professional is going to make
    > less than a un-certified professional has no idea what they are
    > talking about. Explain to me WHY such a thing would be true?


    It could be true based on things that have been said in previous posts.

    > Talk to veterans in the industry,
    > talk to people at staffing firms and HR. Ask those people about jobs
    > you actually want to get- not about general IT.


    Part of the problem is that for a while, everybody was requiring MCSE
    certification, even for entry level jobs. (That would be one of the
    reason MS came up with the lower level certs.) So you had all these
    people with certifications who had no practical experience, thus lower
    the value of what being certified meant. The industry is still
    recovering from that.

    > If you want to be a
    > manager go to college. If you want to be an engineer, get
    > certifications and KNOW what you are talking about.


    We may be seeing a regional difference between being an "engineer" and
    what "college" means. Here, I'd rather see a university degree (or
    college) and experience that any certification. If I had two candidates
    that were exactly the same and only one was certified, only then might I
    pick one over the other.

    > That is my
    > experience and I wouldn't have it any other way. You get paid for what
    > you know this way- bottom line.


    I would say who you know would come first. Then what you know. Although
    what you know may determine who you know. You know what? Hmm...

    -------

    T-Bone
    MCNGP XL
     
    TBone, Oct 30, 2007
    #14
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