Yes, it's that time again, it's new camera time!

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by RichA, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. RichA

    RichA Guest

    So I sold my Olympus E-5M. Why you say? They camera produced
    outstanding images, especially with the old Panasonic 14-45mm zoom and
    primes. Though in all fairness, despite the softness of the Olympus
    12-50mm lens, it did produce very credible macros from 1" away for a
    zoom, pretty amazing in-fact. One caveat about its performance.
    Though its EVF has much higher resolution than old m4/3rds with older
    EVFs, you run into a situation where you get interference clashes
    between the EVF and objects with repeating, fine patterns more often
    than with the older, lower-resolution EVFs. That was my experience
    anyway.

    So why did I sell it? One simple fact; the body is delicate. Yes, it
    is built strong, but the shell/skin is very prone to showing any kind
    of impact mark. So when a minor mishap produced one, I realized it
    wasn't going to suit my style of shooting. I sling my camera over my
    shoulder and occasionally, it will clack against a door frame, or
    tree branch, or whatever, and the body has to be able to absorb this
    without getting trashed.
    My Nikon D300 and an 800 I used had no such susceptibility to showing
    marks from minor impacts. When I sold my D300 after 2 years it had no
    visible body marks. Good body, good paint.

    I've been puttering around with my old Panasonic G1 which has served
    well for years and whose body I don't care if it shows impacts because
    the "skin" on it (like all of them) began peeling a couple months
    after I bought it.

    I didn't feel the need to replace the Olympus right away, but then
    something happened. I was in a store I know and was shown an old
    brass lens because the guy knows I like lenses of any kind to
    experiment with. The lens was interesting, so I asked what he wanted
    for it, and he said "keep it." Turns out, the lens is an old
    specialized portrait lens worth $1600 or so, and since I don't really
    need it (I have a 4x5 but haven't use it in a while) I'll sell it to
    finance the next body. I'll give 1/2 back to the proprietor, which I
    think is fair.

    But what camera to get now? Here is the rub.

    Olympus, in their magnanimous wisdom put the terrific E-5M sensor in
    both the E-PM2 and E-PL5, both of which are 1/2 price alternatives to
    the E-5M. However, neither have an EVF except as an add-on.

    Panasonic, in their unmagnanimous wisdom decided (apparently) not to
    put the new GH3 sensor (which matches the E-5M sensor output) in any
    of the lower bodies, the key one being the G5. So the choice is the
    $1299 GH3, a very complex and comprehensive camera IF one of your
    goals is shooting top-flight video which I could care for about as
    much as a plane ride on an African airline. (they crash a lot).
    Upsides are that the body is a nice size, very comfortable with
    blistering AF speed.

    My inclination is to get the G5, sacrifice some of the quality I had
    with the E-5M and call it a day. The alternative is going with
    another mirror-less (maybe from Sony) and living with whatever
    shortcomings they have (like the 3:2 sensor format) or, going back to
    a DSLR which I'd rather avoid. Frankly speaking, a 1-button
    magnification feature for manual focusing (I've got a lot of older
    manual lenses) blows away any DSLR viewfinder.

    It should be interesting.
    RichA, Feb 17, 2013
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. RichA

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 17:36:43 -0800 (PST), RichA <> wrote:
    : So I sold my Olympus E-5M. Why you say? They camera produced
    : outstanding images, especially with the old Panasonic 14-45mm zoom and
    : primes. Though in all fairness, despite the softness of the Olympus
    : 12-50mm lens, it did produce very credible macros from 1" away for a
    : zoom, pretty amazing in-fact. One caveat about its performance.
    : Though its EVF has much higher resolution than old m4/3rds with older
    : EVFs, you run into a situation where you get interference clashes
    : between the EVF and objects with repeating, fine patterns more often
    : than with the older, lower-resolution EVFs. That was my experience
    : anyway.
    :
    : So why did I sell it? One simple fact; the body is delicate. Yes, it
    : is built strong, but the shell/skin is very prone to showing any kind
    : of impact mark. So when a minor mishap produced one, I realized it
    : wasn't going to suit my style of shooting. I sling my camera over my
    : shoulder and occasionally, it will clack against a door frame, or
    : tree branch, or whatever, and the body has to be able to absorb this
    : without getting trashed.
    : My Nikon D300 and an 800 I used had no such susceptibility to showing
    : marks from minor impacts. When I sold my D300 after 2 years it had no
    : visible body marks. Good body, good paint.
    :
    : I've been puttering around with my old Panasonic G1 which has served
    : well for years and whose body I don't care if it shows impacts because
    : the "skin" on it (like all of them) began peeling a couple months
    : after I bought it.
    :
    : I didn't feel the need to replace the Olympus right away, but then
    : something happened. I was in a store I know and was shown an old
    : brass lens because the guy knows I like lenses of any kind to
    : experiment with. The lens was interesting, so I asked what he wanted
    : for it, and he said "keep it." Turns out, the lens is an old
    : specialized portrait lens worth $1600 or so, and since I don't really
    : need it (I have a 4x5 but haven't use it in a while) I'll sell it to
    : finance the next body. I'll give 1/2 back to the proprietor, which I
    : think is fair.
    :
    : But what camera to get now? Here is the rub.
    :
    : Olympus, in their magnanimous wisdom put the terrific E-5M sensor in
    : both the E-PM2 and E-PL5, both of which are 1/2 price alternatives to
    : the E-5M. However, neither have an EVF except as an add-on.
    :
    : Panasonic, in their unmagnanimous wisdom decided (apparently) not to
    : put the new GH3 sensor (which matches the E-5M sensor output) in any
    : of the lower bodies, the key one being the G5. So the choice is the
    : $1299 GH3, a very complex and comprehensive camera IF one of your
    : goals is shooting top-flight video which I could care for about as
    : much as a plane ride on an African airline. (they crash a lot).
    : Upsides are that the body is a nice size, very comfortable with
    : blistering AF speed.
    :
    : My inclination is to get the G5, sacrifice some of the quality I had
    : with the E-5M and call it a day. The alternative is going with
    : another mirror-less (maybe from Sony) and living with whatever
    : shortcomings they have (like the 3:2 sensor format) or, going back to
    : a DSLR which I'd rather avoid. Frankly speaking, a 1-button
    : magnification feature for manual focusing (I've got a lot of older
    : manual lenses) blows away any DSLR viewfinder.
    :
    : It should be interesting.

    Get a Canon M. It's not a serious camera, but it's positioned as the precursor
    of a possible line of serious cameras. Its sensor is much larger than that of
    the Nikon mirrorless (which you panned for being too small), so it might
    produce decent images. And if it doesn't work out, you can buy a 7D or a 6D
    and re-use the lenses you'll buy. And we Canon DSLR users will hang on your
    every word of commentary as we strive to see into our future.

    Good luck ...

    Bob
    Robert Coe, Feb 17, 2013
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. RichA

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 20:04:48 +0100, Alfred Molon <>
    wrote:
    : In article <>, Robert Coe
    : says...
    : > Get a Canon M. It's not a serious camera, but it's positioned as the
    : > precursor of a possible line of serious cameras.
    :
    : Canon and Nikon are now where Nokia was when Apple launched the first
    : iphone, or where Kodak was at the beginning of the digital revolution.
    : A new game-changing technology (in this case mirrorless cameras), but
    : Canon and Nikon unable/unwilling to embrace it because it would
    : cannibalise their core DSLR business.
    : Things will happen much at a much slower pace than in the mobile phone
    : market due to all that investment in lenses people have, but ultimately
    : Canon and Nikon can only lose in the medium to long term. They are
    : deeply involved in a dying technology.
    : Or do you really think that in 50 years lots of people will still use
    : cameras with a slapping mirror?

    Either that question isn't aimed back at me or you didn't read what I wrote.

    No, of course I don't believe that DSLRs will still be widely used in 50
    years. Where you and I differ is in our interpretations of what's happening
    now, particularly in the case of Canon. Canon has produced a mirrorless
    camera, the M, with a sensor as large as that of a 7D, a rarity in today's
    world. But for the lack of a few critical features (notably an eye-level EVF),
    it could be seen as a potential successor to the 7D. You evidently attribute
    the absence of those features to Canon's unwillingness to risk competing with
    their own products. I don't. I see it as Canon's tacit admission that managing
    the power consumption of a mirrorless camera with a sensor that large and a
    suitable EVF would be beyond their current capability. This will change as
    batteries become more powerful and heat dispersion technology becomes more
    refined. In the meantime, the M serves as the prototype for a more
    sophisticated line of cameras for those willing to see it as such.

    I'm already 75 years old, but I hope to live to see, and possibly own, a
    mirrorless successor to my 7D's. If I get really lucky, maybe I'll get to see
    the mirrorless successor to the 5D.

    Would I buy the current Canon M? No. But I'd be perfectly happy if Rich (or
    you) did! ;^)

    Bob
    Robert Coe, Feb 17, 2013
    #3
  4. RichA

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 13:22:33 -0600, George Kerby <>
    wrote:
    :
    : On 2/17/13 1:04 PM, in article
    : , "Alfred Molon"
    : <> wrote:
    :
    : > In article <>, Robert Coe
    : > says...
    : >> Get a Canon M. It's not a serious camera, but it's positioned as the
    : >> precursor
    : >> of a possible line of serious cameras.
    : >
    : > Canon and Nikon are now where Nokia was when Apple launched the first
    : > iphone, or where Kodak was at the beginning of the digital revolution.
    : > A new game-changing technology (in this case mirrorless cameras), but
    : > Canon and Nikon unable/unwilling to embrace it because it would
    : > cannibalise their core DSLR business.
    : > Things will happen much at a much slower pace than in the mobile phone
    : > market due to all that investment in lenses people have, but ultimately
    : > Canon and Nikon can only lose in the medium to long term. They are
    : > deeply involved in a dying technology.
    : > Or do you really think that in 50 years lots of people will still use
    : > cameras with a slapping mirror?
    :
    : You may remember that Canon in the late 60's was the innovator of mirrorless
    : SLR, but it didn't catch on so the discontinued the Pellex a few years
    : afterward...
    :
    : <http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/film/data/1956-1965/1965_prx.html
    : ?lang=us&categ=srs&page=f>

    Well, OK, but the Pellex was not a mirrorless camera. Indeed, as one or two
    people have pointed out in these groups recently, the term "mirrorless SLR" is
    an oxymoron.

    Bob
    Robert Coe, Feb 17, 2013
    #4
  5. RichA

    RichA Guest

    On Feb 17, 7:05 pm, Alfred Molon <> wrote:
    > In article <>, Robert Coe
    > says...
    >
    > > Canon has produced a mirrorless
    > > camera, the M, with a sensor as large as that of a 7D, a rarity in today's
    > > world.

    >
    > The Sony NEX cameras have even larger sensors:
    > NEX: 23.5 x 15.6 mm
    > Canon M: 22.3 x 14.9 mm
    >
    > > But for the lack of a few critical features (notably an eye-level EVF),
    > > it could be seen as a potential successor to the 7D. You evidently attribute
    > > the absence of those features to Canon's unwillingness to risk competing with
    > > their own products. I don't. I see it as Canon's tacit admission that managing
    > > the power consumption of a mirrorless camera with a sensor that large and a
    > > suitable EVF would be beyond their current capability.

    >
    > But Sony (and all other manufacturers of mirrorless IL cameras) are
    > already capable of that. This, and in addition the fact that the M has a
    > slow AF


    That's a deal-breaker.
    RichA, Feb 18, 2013
    #5
  6. RichA

    DanP Guest

    On Sunday, February 17, 2013 1:36:43 AM UTC, RichA wrote:
    > So I sold my Olympus E-5M. Why you say?


    I have no idea. I don't read that many reviews and frankly I don't think my shot would had been 15% better had I used a camera with a 15% better performance.


    DanP
    DanP, Feb 18, 2013
    #6
  7. RichA

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 19:57:37 -0800 (PST), RichA <> wrote:
    : On Feb 17, 7:05 pm, Alfred Molon <> wrote:
    : > In article <>, Robert Coe
    : > says...
    : >
    : > > Canon has produced a mirrorless
    : > > camera, the M, with a sensor as large as that of a 7D, a rarity in today's
    : > > world.
    : >
    : > The Sony NEX cameras have even larger sensors:
    : > NEX: 23.5 x 15.6 mm
    : > Canon M: 22.3 x 14.9 mm
    : >
    : > > But for the lack of a few critical features (notably an eye-level EVF),
    : > > it could be seen as a potential successor to the 7D. You evidently attribute
    : > > the absence of those features to Canon's unwillingness to risk competing with
    : > > their own products. I don't. I see it as Canon's tacit admission that managing
    : > > the power consumption of a mirrorless camera with a sensor that large and a
    : > > suitable EVF would be beyond their current capability.
    : >
    : > But Sony (and all other manufacturers of mirrorless IL cameras) are
    : > already capable of that. This, and in addition the fact that the M has a
    : > slow AF
    :
    : That's a deal-breaker.

    And should probably be seen as another symptom of a shortage of available
    power on the M. Also, there's not a lot of reason to put, say, the 5D's
    effective but expensive AF system on a camera that's destined to perform like
    a Powershot.

    Bob
    Robert Coe, Feb 18, 2013
    #7
  8. Robert Coe <> writes:

    > On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 20:04:48 +0100, Alfred Molon <>
    > wrote:
    > : In article <>, Robert Coe
    > : says...
    > : > Get a Canon M. It's not a serious camera, but it's positioned as the
    > : > precursor of a possible line of serious cameras.
    > :
    > : Canon and Nikon are now where Nokia was when Apple launched the first
    > : iphone, or where Kodak was at the beginning of the digital revolution.
    > : A new game-changing technology (in this case mirrorless cameras), but
    > : Canon and Nikon unable/unwilling to embrace it because it would
    > : cannibalise their core DSLR business.
    > : Things will happen much at a much slower pace than in the mobile phone
    > : market due to all that investment in lenses people have, but ultimately
    > : Canon and Nikon can only lose in the medium to long term. They are
    > : deeply involved in a dying technology.
    > : Or do you really think that in 50 years lots of people will still use
    > : cameras with a slapping mirror?
    >
    > Either that question isn't aimed back at me or you didn't read what I wrote.
    >
    > No, of course I don't believe that DSLRs will still be widely used in 50
    > years. Where you and I differ is in our interpretations of what's happening
    > now, particularly in the case of Canon. Canon has produced a mirrorless
    > camera, the M, with a sensor as large as that of a 7D, a rarity in today's
    > world. But for the lack of a few critical features (notably an eye-level EVF),
    > it could be seen as a potential successor to the 7D. You evidently attribute
    > the absence of those features to Canon's unwillingness to risk competing with
    > their own products. I don't. I see it as Canon's tacit admission that managing
    > the power consumption of a mirrorless camera with a sensor that large and a
    > suitable EVF would be beyond their current capability. This will change as
    > batteries become more powerful and heat dispersion technology becomes more
    > refined. In the meantime, the M serves as the prototype for a more
    > sophisticated line of cameras for those willing to see it as such.


    I don't believe the power consumption theory. Micro Four Thirds and the
    Sony Nex and the full-frame little thing from whoever that is clearly
    disprove the power consumption theory.

    Right now, mirrorless cameras still have a severe disadvantage in
    autofocus speed, and the DSLRs aren't really good enough so there's
    little slack for the mirrorless to be "good enough" (but it depends what
    you shoot; static things, no problem). There's a very solid
    technological basis for that, but they're working towards overcoming
    it. There are certainly severe costs imposed by the flappy-mirror
    design.

    --
    Googleproofaddress(account:dd-b provider:dd-b domain:net)
    Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
    Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
    Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
    David Dyer-Bennet, Feb 19, 2013
    #8
  9. RichA

    RichA Guest

    On Feb 19, 4:59 am, Alfred Molon <> wrote:
    > In article <>, Robert Coe
    > says...
    >
    > > And should probably be seen as another symptom of a shortage of available
    > > power on the M. Also, there's not a lot of reason to put, say, the 5D's
    > > effective but expensive AF system on a camera that's destined to perform like
    > > a Powershot.

    >
    > m4/3 cameras have ultrafast AF systems. These are contrast AF systems,
    > deriving their speed from very fast image read-out (I heard something
    > like 120 reads/second) and lenses with fast Af adjustment.
    >
    > If the Canon M is performing as a Powershot, it's only Canon who is to
    > blame by refusing to make it better. They have designed it to be
    > mediocre.
    > --
    >
    > Alfred Molon
    > ------------------------------
    > Olympus E-series DSLRs and micro 4/3 forum athttp://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/http://myolympus.org/photo sharing site


    I tested a Canon M today. It's not as fast as a m4/3 with a kit
    lens. Great build, no EVF and no way to add an EVF. Canon and Nikon
    are still treating their mirror-less like bastard step-children of the
    DSLRs.
    RichA, Feb 20, 2013
    #9
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Kevin Walsh

    yes yes

    Kevin Walsh, Aug 30, 2004, in forum: Computer Support
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    564
    A String
    Aug 30, 2004
  2. music_mania

    yes minister and yes prime minister wanted

    music_mania, Dec 2, 2006, in forum: DVD Video
    Replies:
    11
    Views:
    1,073
    music_mania
    Dec 11, 2006
  3. Bucky Breeder

    Re: Yes means yes

    Bucky Breeder, May 19, 2009, in forum: Computer Support
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    469
    Bucky Breeder
    May 19, 2009
  4. TompangBuddy.Com

    Re: Yes means yes

    TompangBuddy.Com, May 19, 2009, in forum: Computer Support
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    423
    TompangBuddy.Com
    May 19, 2009
  5. nut

    Re: Yes means yes

    nut, May 19, 2009, in forum: Computer Support
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    411
Loading...

Share This Page