Would this be ok? (power question)

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by symonlandor@gmail.com, Feb 13, 2006.

  1. Guest

    Yeah,My 400 watt PSU is draining more power than my 250watt UPS can
    give out.so far the best option for me is a $100 new UPS,but i dont
    have $100.Now,would it be logical to just use a premium grade
    powerstrip,that has like 1800wattage,or would my computer crap out? All
    I really want is my computer to be able to run the high end games
    without having my UPS or whatever beeping and flashing saying my comp
    is draining more than it can give.
    , Feb 13, 2006
    #1
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  2. Rich Wilson Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Yeah,My 400 watt PSU is draining more power than my 250watt UPS can
    > give out.so far the best option for me is a $100 new UPS,but i dont
    > have $100.Now,would it be logical to just use a premium grade
    > powerstrip,that has like 1800wattage,or would my computer crap out? All
    > I really want is my computer to be able to run the high end games
    > without having my UPS or whatever beeping and flashing saying my comp
    > is draining more than it can give.


    Just plug it into the mains! 400W is nothing compared to the power taken by,
    say, a kettle. Any old powerstrip will do.
    Rich Wilson, Feb 14, 2006
    #2
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  3. wrote:
    > Yeah,My 400 watt PSU is draining more power than my 250watt UPS can
    > give out.so far the best option for me is a $100 new UPS,but i dont
    > have $100.Now,would it be logical to just use a premium grade
    > powerstrip,that has like 1800wattage,or would my computer crap out? All
    > I really want is my computer to be able to run the high end games
    > without having my UPS or whatever beeping and flashing saying my comp
    > is draining more than it can give.
    >

    What were the reasons for having a UPS in the first place? Have they
    gone away?

    The odds are that your over-loaded UPS is doing little more for you than
    a plug-in "surge protector". So, replacing it with a powerstrip with
    built-in "surge protector" isn't going to make your situation worse than
    it is at present. Quite possibly better, as the chance of your UPS
    catching fire is removed.

    If your UPS is there to protect against brownouts and blackouts - then
    it probably isn't doing that in its overloaded state. It may be helping
    with out of tolerance supply voltage, but probably isn't doing that
    either, at the moment.

    So, if you want to be as protected as you are at the moment, swapping
    the UPS for a "surge protected" powerstrip is no bad idea. Whether that
    protection is needed and how effective these "surge protectors" are
    totally different questions.

    If all the reasons for getting a UPS in the first place were valid and
    remain relevant - then you need to buy a bigger UPS. There are loads on
    ebay. If you can't afford one of these, what are you going to do when
    your computer doesn't even beep anymore, get out a pack of playing cards
    and play "high end" solitaire?

    --
    Sue
    =?UTF-8?B?UGFsaW5kcuKYu21l?=, Feb 14, 2006
    #3
  4. JANA Guest

    You need a bigger UPS, "period"!

    You can bypass it, but then you will not have the same level of protection.
    You have to find a way to save up for a good UPS, if you want proper
    protection.

    Take care when buying used UPS's. The battery life is limited to about 3 to
    5 years, depending on the charge cycles, power surges and failures, and the
    average load in relation to its capacity.

    --

    JANA
    _____


    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    Yeah,My 400 watt PSU is draining more power than my 250watt UPS can
    give out.so far the best option for me is a $100 new UPS,but i dont
    have $100.Now,would it be logical to just use a premium grade
    powerstrip,that has like 1800wattage,or would my computer crap out? All
    I really want is my computer to be able to run the high end games
    without having my UPS or whatever beeping and flashing saying my comp
    is draining more than it can give.
    JANA, Feb 14, 2006
    #4
  5. Vanguard Guest

    "Palindr☻me" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > wrote:
    >> Yeah,My 400 watt PSU is draining more power than my 250watt UPS can
    >> give out.so far the best option for me is a $100 new UPS,but i dont
    >> have $100.Now,would it be logical to just use a premium grade
    >> powerstrip,that has like 1800wattage,or would my computer crap out? All
    >> I really want is my computer to be able to run the high end games
    >> without having my UPS or whatever beeping and flashing saying my comp
    >> is draining more than it can give.
    >>

    > What were the reasons for having a UPS in the first place? Have they gone
    > away?
    >
    > The odds are that your over-loaded UPS is doing little more for you than a
    > plug-in "surge protector". So, replacing it with a powerstrip with
    > built-in "surge protector" isn't going to make your situation worse than
    > it is at present. Quite possibly better, as the chance of your UPS
    > catching fire is removed.
    >
    > If your UPS is there to protect against brownouts and blackouts - then it
    > probably isn't doing that in its overloaded state. It may be helping with
    > out of tolerance supply voltage, but probably isn't doing that either, at
    > the moment.
    >
    > So, if you want to be as protected as you are at the moment, swapping the
    > UPS for a "surge protected" powerstrip is no bad idea.


    Unless it is a pricey UPS, the consumer-grade UPS does *not* have surge
    protection. It is a *data* protection device (provided you communicate with
    it so its software can perform a graceful shutdown of your computer). If it
    has a heavy isolation transformer and/or regulates the waveform (to
    eliminate surges, spikes, etc.) then the UPS is doing nothing to prevent
    surges to your computer.

    Keeping power to your computer is not the same as conditioning it. Most
    UPS'es simply feed the power straight through to the computer and actually
    *standby* units rather than *uninterruptible* units. Yeah, they switch in
    from standby in under a few milliseconds during which it is assumed that the
    electrolytic capacitors inside your PSU will provide sufficient power during
    the brief outage. TRUE uninterruptible power supplies are more expensive,
    and those that condition the output are even more expensive. So far, I
    haven't see the retail stores selling true UPS'es and definitely none with
    conditioning or surge protection.

    > Whether that protection is needed and how effective these "surge
    > protectors" are totally different questions.


    There are lots of arguments over this. The best solution is the whole-home
    arrestor at the point-of-entry for power. The surges you can create inside
    your home from your appliances are way below what the switching power supply
    inside your computer can handle. If you use end-point surge protectors, you
    need to put all your protected equipment upstream of the SAME surge
    protector. Attaching multiple surge protectors to the sockets of a wall
    outlet results in a 10 or 12 foot length between the two surge protectors
    (due to the length of cord from one to the outlet and then length of cord to
    the other one) and that can result in a 400V, or more, surge differential
    between the two surge protectors, and if you interconnect your equipment
    across those 2 surge protectors then you can suffer a surge between them.

    Don't get the 3-way surge protectors because they shunt the surge to the
    ground line which can get back inside your computer. You want a 2-way surge
    protector that shunts across the hot and neutral. Rather than shunting the
    voltage and hopes it goes somewhere else that doesn't suffer from the
    shunted surge, there are protectors that absorb the surge and slowly
    dissipate it, like ZeroSurge. They're more expensive: the "home" units from
    ZeroSurge run from $129 to $199. (I'm not specifically recommending the
    ZeroSurge protectors since I'd have to get one and then get an oscilloscope
    to monitor its output and somehow induce a large and extended surge to see
    how well they work. It just seems more rational to choke the surge than to
    shunt it somewhere else.)

    A UPS is for *data* protection.
    A surge protector is for *hardware* protection.

    Backups are required for data security regardless of using an UPS or surge
    protector! If you don't backup then that data really wasn't important to
    you.

    --
    __________________________________________________
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    Vanguard, Feb 14, 2006
    #5
  6. Vanguard Guest

    "JANA" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > You need a bigger UPS, "period"!
    >
    > You can bypass it, but then you will not have the same level of
    > protection.
    > You have to find a way to save up for a good UPS, if you want proper
    > protection.
    >
    > Take care when buying used UPS's. The battery life is limited to about 3
    > to
    > 5 years, depending on the charge cycles, power surges and failures, and
    > the
    > average load in relation to its capacity.


    Many of them you can dismantle to replace the batteries. I've done it twice
    at home for a huge 2kVA UPS and a smaller 350W UPS. Got the replacements
    from BatteriesPlus.

    If the batteries go dead or won't keep a decent charge, you won't lose
    anything by seeing if you can open the case and replace the batteries since
    you would've tossed the entire UPS if you didn't try checking. Buying a
    used UPS and having to replace the batteries would cost about the same as
    buying it new, but if you already have the UPS and after 3 to 5 years the
    battery is no good then it is cheaper to fix it.
    Vanguard, Feb 14, 2006
    #6
  7. Vanguard wrote:
    > "Palindr☻me" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Yeah,My 400 watt PSU is draining more power than my 250watt UPS can
    >>> give out.so far the best option for me is a $100 new UPS,but i dont
    >>> have $100.Now,would it be logical to just use a premium grade
    >>> powerstrip,that has like 1800wattage,or would my computer crap out? All
    >>> I really want is my computer to be able to run the high end games
    >>> without having my UPS or whatever beeping and flashing saying my comp
    >>> is draining more than it can give.
    >>>

    >> What were the reasons for having a UPS in the first place? Have they
    >> gone away?
    >>
    >> The odds are that your over-loaded UPS is doing little more for you
    >> than a plug-in "surge protector". So, replacing it with a powerstrip
    >> with built-in "surge protector" isn't going to make your situation
    >> worse than it is at present. Quite possibly better, as the chance of
    >> your UPS catching fire is removed.
    >>
    >> If your UPS is there to protect against brownouts and blackouts - then
    >> it probably isn't doing that in its overloaded state. It may be
    >> helping with out of tolerance supply voltage, but probably isn't doing
    >> that either, at the moment.
    >>
    >> So, if you want to be as protected as you are at the moment, swapping
    >> the UPS for a "surge protected" powerstrip is no bad idea.

    >
    >
    > Unless it is a pricey UPS, the consumer-grade UPS does *not* have surge
    > protection. It is a *data* protection device (provided you communicate
    > with it so its software can perform a graceful shutdown of your
    > computer). If it has a heavy isolation transformer and/or regulates the
    > waveform (to eliminate surges, spikes, etc.) then the UPS is doing
    > nothing to prevent surges to your computer.


    Are you then disagreeing with me that a "surge protected" powerstrip
    provides about the same protection in this respect as his current,
    overloaded, UPS? (i.e. arguably not much).

    I think you meant to write, "Unless it has a heavy isolation, etc..."

    Incidently, my putting quotes around "surge protected" indicates that
    that is what other people call them - and not I.

    >
    > Keeping power to your computer is not the same as conditioning it. Most
    > UPS'es simply feed the power straight through to the computer and
    > actually *standby* units rather than *uninterruptible* units. Yeah,
    > they switch in from standby in under a few milliseconds during which it
    > is assumed that the electrolytic capacitors inside your PSU will provide
    > sufficient power during the brief outage. TRUE uninterruptible power
    > supplies are more expensive, and those that condition the output are
    > even more expensive. So far, I haven't see the retail stores selling
    > true UPS'es and definitely none with conditioning or surge protection.


    Rather than use "true" and, presumably, "false" - you may be better to
    use the proper terms, online, line-interactive and offline.


    >
    >> Whether that protection is needed and how effective these "surge
    >> protectors" are totally different questions.

    >
    >
    > There are lots of arguments over this. The best solution is the
    > whole-home arrestor at the point-of-entry for power. The surges you can
    > create inside your home from your appliances are way below what the
    > switching power supply inside your computer can handle. If you use
    > end-point surge protectors, you need to put all your protected equipment
    > upstream of the SAME surge protector. Attaching multiple surge
    > protectors to the sockets of a wall outlet results in a 10 or 12 foot
    > length between the two surge protectors (due to the length of cord from
    > one to the outlet and then length of cord to the other one) and that can
    > result in a 400V, or more, surge differential between the two surge
    > protectors, and if you interconnect your equipment across those 2 surge
    > protectors then you can suffer a surge between them.


    A strange way of putting it, if you don't mind me saying. I would
    suggest that a better explanation is that the surge energy has to go
    somewhere and is generally dumped into the earth return - unlike
    transients which can be absorbed locally. Ideally it is dumped at the
    point of entry, using a surge arrestor there. The worst place to do it
    is at the end of a radial circuit with several taps taken off before the
    surge arrestor, as each of those taps will see the transient on the
    earth return as the surge arrestor does its job. The surge that destroys
    equipment on these taps comes in on the earth line - totally negating
    any surge arrestors that they may have.

    >
    > Don't get the 3-way surge protectors because they shunt the surge to the
    > ground line which can get back inside your computer. You want a 2-way
    > surge protector that shunts across the hot and neutral. Rather than
    > shunting the voltage and hopes it goes somewhere else that doesn't
    > suffer from the shunted surge, there are protectors that absorb the
    > surge and slowly dissipate it, like ZeroSurge. They're more expensive:
    > the "home" units from ZeroSurge run from $129 to $199. (I'm not
    > specifically recommending the ZeroSurge protectors since I'd have to get
    > one and then get an oscilloscope to monitor its output and somehow
    > induce a large and extended surge to see how well they work. It just
    > seems more rational to choke the surge than to shunt it somewhere else.)
    >

    I suspect that you are mixing surge arrestors with transient
    suppressors. Devices that absorb the excess energy cannot do so for a
    sustained surge - and certainly not a large and extended surge. The only
    way of getting rid of that much energy is to dump it into the third
    wire. To get things straight - a "3 way", as you call it, surge arrestor
    needs to be at the point of entry for supply. "2 way" transient
    suppressors need to be at or near the load.

    > A UPS is for *data* protection.
    > A surge protector is for *hardware* protection.

    An online UPS provides excellent hardware protection. A UPS is for what
    the designer intended it to be for. Surge protectors, incorrectly used,
    can be worse than no protection at all. Transient suppressors rarely do
    any harm but cannot cope with a sustained surge, unless they are three wire.

    >
    > Backups are required for data security regardless of using an UPS or
    > surge protector! If you don't backup then that data really wasn't
    > important to you.
    >


    Agreed. However, backups are of dubious value unless they are
    periodically verified as being capable of restoring the data. Too many
    people take backups and never actually check whether they are adequate.
    =?UTF-8?B?UGFsaW5kcuKYu21l?=, Feb 14, 2006
    #7
  8. Vanguard Guest

    "Palindr☻me" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Are you then disagreeing with me that a "surge protected" powerstrip
    > provides about the same protection in this respect as his current,
    > overloaded, UPS? (i.e. arguably not much).


    Actually I'm stating that a UPS (of the type the OP is probably buying)
    won't provide *any* surge protection at all. The OP doesn't have any surge
    protection now. If the OP gets a surge protector to replace his UPS (or
    puts one in front of the UPS) then all his computer gear should be hooked to
    it. If he runs out of outlets on the surge strip, add more non-protected
    power strips connected in series to the surge protector so all connected
    equipment is upstream of the surge protector (to eliminate impedance and a
    surge between using two of them in parallel).

    The surge protector is NOT providing the same protection as the UPS. It is
    highly likely that the UPS is not providing any surge protection at all.

    > I think you meant to write, "Unless it has a heavy isolation, etc..."


    It is NOT required to use an isolation transformer to eliminate surges.
    Line conditioning works, too. As I recall, the transformer acts as a choke
    to impede the surge, the secondary has less turns so the voltage induced in
    it from the primary is smaller (and hence also the surge), and conditioning
    raises the voltage back up while eliminating spikes, variance in input
    voltage (brownouts, overvoltage), EMF noise, etc.) , and capacitors can be
    used to bleed the overvoltage to neutral (to shunt back through the
    secondary coil which, I believe, further impedes the surge).

    > Incidently, my putting quotes around "surge protected" indicates that that
    > is what other people call them - and not I.


    Except that the typical UPS has *no* surge protection. Do NOT expect a UPS
    for surge protection. I'm talking about the types that users buy at the
    store or typically online. You can get a UPS with surge protection (and, as
    mentioned, all your interconnected computer gear should be upstream of that
    same surge protected point).

    >> Keeping power to your computer is not the same as conditioning it. Most
    >> UPS'es simply feed the power straight through to the computer and
    >> actually *standby* units rather than *uninterruptible* units. Yeah, they
    >> switch in from standby in under a few milliseconds during which it is
    >> assumed that the electrolytic capacitors inside your PSU will provide
    >> sufficient power during the brief outage. TRUE uninterruptible power
    >> supplies are more expensive, and those that condition the output are even
    >> more expensive. So far, I haven't see the retail stores selling true
    >> UPS'es and definitely none with conditioning or surge protection.

    >
    > Rather than use "true" and, presumably, "false" - you may be better to use
    > the proper terms, online, line-interactive and offline.


    Because the term "UPS", which means UNinterruptible, has been bastardized in
    the market to include standby power supplies (SPS) which react within
    milliseconds but don't actually provide the power directly all the time, the
    use of "true" is to reinforce "UNinterruptible". You won't find the terms
    online, line-interactive, and offline printed on the boxes in the store or
    what you get when online ordering the typical consumer-grade UPS. Think of
    "true" like some folks use "really" (ever heard someone say, "We're having
    *real* turkey this Thanksgiving"; however, there is no such thing as unreal
    turkey because, well, it would be UNreal). I also used the term "standby"
    to denote a different type of power supply, but that does not infer there is
    a "non-standby" type name. See:

    http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/ext/ups/typesStandby-c.html
    http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/ext/ups/typesOnLine-c.html

    >>> Whether that protection is needed and how effective these "surge
    >>> protectors" are totally different questions.

    >>
    >>
    >> There are lots of arguments over this. The best solution is the
    >> whole-home arrestor at the point-of-entry for power. The surges you can
    >> create inside your home from your appliances are way below what the
    >> switching power supply inside your computer can handle. If you use
    >> end-point surge protectors, you need to put all your protected equipment
    >> upstream of the SAME surge protector. Attaching multiple surge
    >> protectors to the sockets of a wall outlet results in a 10 or 12 foot
    >> length between the two surge protectors (due to the length of cord from
    >> one to the outlet and then length of cord to the other one) and that can
    >> result in a 400V, or more, surge differential between the two surge
    >> protectors, and if you interconnect your equipment across those 2 surge
    >> protectors then you can suffer a surge between them.

    >
    > A strange way of putting it, if you don't mind me saying.


    A surge is a high frequency signal on your power line. As such, it
    encounters a higher impedance along the wire that does your 120Hz power.
    With the higher impedance, the 6 foot cord from one surge protector strip
    plugged into an outlet and the 6 foot cord for another surge protector strip
    plugged into the same outlet is a 12-foot difference in length between them.
    If the surge gets shunted at one surge protector before the other one shunts
    it, the result due to impedance between the two could amount to a
    differential of several hundred volts, and there is yet another surge AFTER
    shunting it.

    > I would suggest that a better explanation is that the surge energy has to
    > go somewhere and is generally dumped into the earth return


    Mode 2 (3-way) which includes shunting to ground is hazardous to electronic
    equipment. While their may be some isolation between circuit ground and
    chassis ground, sometimes it's just a resistor to provide slowed discharge
    of static. Since the ground line for the power supply in the computer goes
    to chassis ground, there is a path for a ground shunted surge to make its
    way back through chassis ground to circuit ground and back into your
    equipment. In mode 1 (2-way), the surge gets shunted between neutral and
    hot and gets delivered to ground back at the home's point-of-entry for power
    (computer companies have ground points at much shorter distances to reduce
    impedance to the surge). Shunting to ground is hazardous. Shunting back to
    earth ground maintains the surge along the line until it reaches the earth
    return.

    Best is to shunt it to earth return at the point of entry so you don't have
    to deal with it inside your residence. The equipment within your house
    doesn't produce surges that your computer's power supply cannot handle. If
    you are in an industrial plant where, for example, one or more high-current
    lathes may be powered down together, you can generate a large surge within
    the building so internal surge protection is required.

    Rather than get into a long discussion regarding surge arrest, shunting,
    transient clamping, true/online UPS versus standby/offline, my main point
    was that the UPS that the OP is likely using has no surge protection at all.
    Vanguard, Feb 14, 2006
    #8
  9. Vanguard wrote:
    <snip>
    > Rather than get into a long discussion regarding surge arrest, shunting,
    > transient clamping, true/online UPS versus standby/offline, my main
    > point was that the UPS that the OP is likely using has no surge
    > protection at all.


    Back to something that may be of use to the OP:

    I think we agree, perhaps:

    That he may as well remove his present, overloaded, UPS as it is
    probably serving no useful purpose? And could possibly do more harm than
    good? ( if it, for example, catastrophically fails)

    That if he needs to protect his data against the effects of power
    outages, he needs to buy a UPS capable of meeting the load for at least
    long enough to shut the sytem down gracefully?

    But that also he needs to backup his data and verify that he can
    actually restore such a backup sucessfully and retrieve everything he
    wants to keep?

    That, if he want to protect his computer hardware against almost
    anything that could come up the supply line, he needs to buy a
    "true/online" UPS?

    But that he wont get such things at his local computer shop and, if it
    isn't described specifically as such, it probably isn't one?

    That a whole house surge arrestor, at the point of supply entry, is a
    jolly good idea to protect those things that aren't on the UPS?

    Phew!

    --
    Sue
    =?UTF-8?B?UGFsaW5kcuKYu21l?=, Feb 14, 2006
    #9
  10. Vanguard Guest

    "Palindr☻me" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Vanguard wrote:
    > <snip>
    >> Rather than get into a long discussion regarding surge arrest, shunting,
    >> transient clamping, true/online UPS versus standby/offline, my main point
    >> was that the UPS that the OP is likely using has no surge protection at
    >> all.

    >
    > Back to something that may be of use to the OP:
    >
    > I think we agree, perhaps:
    >
    > That he may as well remove his present, overloaded, UPS as it is probably
    > serving no useful purpose? And could possibly do more harm than good? ( if
    > it, for example, catastrophically fails)
    >
    > That if he needs to protect his data against the effects of power outages,
    > he needs to buy a UPS capable of meeting the load for at least long enough
    > to shut the sytem down gracefully?
    >
    > But that also he needs to backup his data and verify that he can actually
    > restore such a backup sucessfully and retrieve everything he wants to
    > keep?
    >
    > That, if he want to protect his computer hardware against almost anything
    > that could come up the supply line, he needs to buy a "true/online" UPS?
    >
    > But that he wont get such things at his local computer shop and, if it
    > isn't described specifically as such, it probably isn't one?
    >
    > That a whole house surge arrestor, at the point of supply entry, is a
    > jolly good idea to protect those things that aren't on the UPS?
    >
    > Phew!



    Sounds good to me. If the OP does backups, I'd suggest first getting the
    surge protection.
    Vanguard, Feb 14, 2006
    #10
  11. Guest

    Ok,Lots of confusing things going on at once. My computer,it sucks alot
    of power,right now im using a Patriot 250Watt UPS (not sure if it has
    surge protection) I can make backups easily,but my computer is
    valuable.Power failures are not much of a problem in my area,but I
    would sure as hell like to have my computer hardware wise
    protected.Now,that should lead to a surge protector. I also want to be
    able to play high end games,which,cause my current UPS to draw from
    battery because it cannot stream enough power to my comp.Would a normal
    surge protector,not for the rest of my house,just a normal '1 plug into
    the wall,6-8 outlet' strip with about 1800watts rating be enough to
    give my comp enough power,and protect it from surges?
    , Feb 15, 2006
    #11
  12. Whiskers Guest

    On 2006-02-15, <> wrote:

    snip

    > Would a normal
    > surge protector,not for the rest of my house,just a normal '1 plug into
    > the wall,6-8 outlet' strip with about 1800watts rating be enough to
    > give my comp enough power,


    Yes, as long as your computer doesn't want more than 1800 Watts (which it
    almost certainly doesn't - that would not be a normal 'personal computer'
    and you would already know the answers to the questions you are asking
    here).

    > and protect it from surges?


    Debateable. Some 'surge protectors' are better than others, but if you
    are worried about lightning strikes you should disconnect your computer
    and modem and routers etc from the internet and from the telepone line or
    cable, and shut them all down and unplug from the mains, when a storm
    passes nearby. Anything less than that is risky no matter what 'surge
    protection' you have.

    If you are bothered by a 'dirty' or 'noisy' mains supply, or the voltage
    or frequency are prone to vary a lot, then you should talk to the power
    company or a qualified electrician about installing special equipment to
    'stabilise' or 'clean' the supply - or get it fixed at source.

    --
    -- ^^^^^^^^^^
    -- Whiskers
    -- ~~~~~~~~~~
    Whiskers, Feb 15, 2006
    #12
  13. Vanguard Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Ok,Lots of confusing things going on at once. My computer,it sucks alot
    > of power,right now im using a Patriot 250Watt UPS (not sure if it has
    > surge protection)


    BestPower got bought by Powerware. There are still some old products for
    which you can get manuals.
    http://lit.powerware.com/ll_download.asp?file=m_patriot_jan99.pdf&calling_site=pw_sw
    says yours has surge protection but it is only up to 450 joules. There is
    no mention of how it eliminates surges. MOVs get weaker on each surge,
    eventually short out and burn up (which can lead to a fire hazard for
    plastic-cased units); see http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movsres.html and
    http://www.rbs2.com/fire.htm (I used to know a link to a movie showing one
    burning up but don't remember it now). If it has a metal case, you'd be
    safer. Some have foam retardant inside. And maybe they've got MOVs now
    that short quick and burn out fast so they don't produce the fire hazard.
    Most times, it's impossible to find out WHAT type of components are used for
    surge protection within a device (MOV, avalanche, choke, other).

    > I can make backups easily,but my computer is
    > valuable.Power failures are not much of a problem in my area,but I
    > would sure as hell like to have my computer hardware wise
    > protected.Now,that should lead to a surge protector. I also want to be
    > able to play high end games,which,cause my current UPS to draw from
    > battery because it cannot stream enough power to my comp.Would a normal
    > surge protector,not for the rest of my house,just a normal '1 plug into
    > the wall,6-8 outlet' strip with about 1800watts rating be enough to
    > give my comp enough power,and protect it from surges?


    Not all your computer gear needs to run from the UPS (if you go that way).
    On the Patriot, some outlets are just surge protected but don't draw on the
    battery. You don't need your printer, scanner, external Zip drive, external
    hard drive (maybe), and powered speakers on the battery circuit. Put the
    computer and monitor on the UPS and put the rest on the non-UPS outlets.
    Are you really going to continue playing a game (and need the speakers,
    printer, scanner, etc.) running during a power outage? The surge protection
    for your unit isn't very high but it's better than nothing provided it is
    still working. I don't know if that unit provides monitoring of
    functionality (and if it uses MOVs then it can't monitor those because they
    are normally open, short on surge but that is destructive to the MOV, and
    short but immediately burn up and open again). It has a Fault indicator
    light but that says it is just to do with a problem with the UPS circuit, so
    it looks like you will never know if the surge protection is still working.

    So you might still be able to use your UPS but just don't try putting all
    your gear on the UPS-protected outlets. If the 2 non-UPS outlets aren't
    enough, use a non-surge protected strip (i.e., a plain power strip)
    connected to the non-UPS outlet on the UPS (actually I think your unit is an
    SPS). You might get enough time using the supplied software to get your
    system to gracefully shutdown in the short time that your UPS can provide
    power. If, however, your intent is to keep using your computer during an
    outage, get a much MUCH larger rated UPS (you can build your own with
    batteries and an inverter but you probably don't want to).

    --
    __________________________________________________
    Post replies to the newsgroup. Share with others.
    For e-mail: Remove "NIX" and add "#VN" to Subject.
    __________________________________________________
    Vanguard, Feb 15, 2006
    #13
  14. w_tom Guest

    That 450 joules is how a manufacturer 'installed category one dikes'
    and therefore has you assuming it will protect from category 3
    hurricanes. 450 joules is 'grossly undersized'. Common in totally
    ineffective protectors who promote their products do what is not
    acceptable - vaporize.

    Normal failure mode for MOVs is degradation. Many MOV manufacturers
    define failure as a 10% degradation. MOVs still work and are not
    vaporized; but no longer sufficient. Vaporization happens when a
    totally ineffective protector is being promoted to the naive. When it
    vaporizes, protection for that adjacent appliance was protection
    already inside the appliance. But the naive claim, "the protector
    sacrificed itself to protect my computer". Total myth. A protector
    that vaporized (such as demonstrated in:
    http://www.rbs2.com/fire.htm and
    http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge Protectors.pdf
    provided no effective protection - often grossly undersized.

    Meanwhile a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No
    'less than 10 foot' connection to earth ground means no effective
    protection. Earthing is why 'whole house' protectors (as even
    installed on incoming phone line - for free) are so effective.

    For data protection, the original poster can use a UPS for blackouts.
    Above plug-in UPSes provide no hardware protection. Effective
    hardware protection must be located at the service entrance - a
    properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Furthermore, a $3 power
    strip - with the essentail 15 amp circuit breaker - is a better power
    source. Better if he does not need battery backup to protect data - and
    a high score. All power strips must provide more than sufficient
    power. A 15 amp circuit breaker on a power strip is for human safety.

    For transistor safety, better protectors are sold by Square D,
    Siemens, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Leviton, and GE. These are not
    those ineffective plug-in protectors. Obviously ineffective plug-in
    protectors because of no dedicated and 'less than 10 foot' connection
    to single point earth ground.

    Vanguard wrote:
    > <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Ok,Lots of confusing things going on at once. My computer,it sucks alot
    >> of power,right now im using a Patriot 250Watt UPS (not sure if it has
    >> surge protection)

    >
    > BestPower got bought by Powerware. There are still some old products for
    > which you can get manuals.
    > http://lit.powerware.com/ll_download.asp?file=m_patriot_jan99.pdf&calling_site=pw_sw
    > says yours has surge protection but it is only up to 450 joules. There is
    > no mention of how it eliminates surges. MOVs get weaker on each surge,
    > eventually short out and burn up (which can lead to a fire hazard for
    > plastic-cased units); see http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movsres.html and
    > http://www.rbs2.com/fire.htm (I used to know a link to a movie showing one
    > burning up but don't remember it now). If it has a metal case, you'd be
    > safer. Some have foam retardant inside. And maybe they've got MOVs now
    > that short quick and burn out fast so they don't produce the fire hazard.
    > Most times, it's impossible to find out WHAT type of components are used for
    > surge protection within a device (MOV, avalanche, choke, other).
    >
    >> I can make backups easily,but my computer is
    >> valuable.Power failures are not much of a problem in my area,but I
    >> would sure as hell like to have my computer hardware wise
    >> protected.Now,that should lead to a surge protector. I also want to be
    >> able to play high end games,which,cause my current UPS to draw from
    >> battery because it cannot stream enough power to my comp.Would a normal
    >> surge protector,not for the rest of my house,just a normal '1 plug into
    >> the wall,6-8 outlet' strip with about 1800watts rating be enough to
    >> give my comp enough power,and protect it from surges?

    >
    > Not all your computer gear needs to run from the UPS (if you go that way).
    > On the Patriot, some outlets are just surge protected but don't draw on the
    > battery. You don't need your printer, scanner, external Zip drive, external
    > hard drive (maybe), and powered speakers on the battery circuit. Put the
    > computer and monitor on the UPS and put the rest on the non-UPS outlets.
    > Are you really going to continue playing a game (and need the speakers,
    > printer, scanner, etc.) running during a power outage? The surge protection
    > for your unit isn't very high but it's better than nothing provided it is
    > still working. I don't know if that unit provides monitoring of
    > functionality (and if it uses MOVs then it can't monitor those because they
    > are normally open, short on surge but that is destructive to the MOV, and
    > short but immediately burn up and open again). It has a Fault indicator
    > light but that says it is just to do with a problem with the UPS circuit, so
    > it looks like you will never know if the surge protection is still working.
    >
    > So you might still be able to use your UPS but just don't try putting all
    > your gear on the UPS-protected outlets. If the 2 non-UPS outlets aren't
    > enough, use a non-surge protected strip (i.e., a plain power strip)
    > connected to the non-UPS outlet on the UPS (actually I think your unit is an
    > SPS). You might get enough time using the supplied software to get your
    > system to gracefully shutdown in the short time that your UPS can provide
    > power. If, however, your intent is to keep using your computer during an
    > outage, get a much MUCH larger rated UPS (you can build your own with
    > batteries and an inverter but you probably don't want to).
    w_tom, Feb 15, 2006
    #14
  15. Leythos Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > For data protection, the original poster can use a UPS for blackouts.
    > Above plug-in UPSes provide no hardware protection. Effective
    > hardware protection must be located at the service entrance - a
    > properly earthed 'whole house' protector.


    Except that we've already provided examples where UPS devices DID
    protect hardware while at the same time unprotected devices were
    damaged. Seems strange that you keep insisting that a UPS can't protect
    hardware when faced with the fact that time and time again it does.

    --


    remove 999 in order to email me
    Leythos, Feb 16, 2006
    #15
  16. w_tom Guest

    Yes, some UPSes do provide protection IF properly installed upstream
    of all equipment AND if connected short to earth ground. A protector
    that is not part of a 'protection system' does nothing useful for a
    homeowner. Destructive surges seek earth ground. Transient either
    obtains earth ground, destructively, via electronics - OR - transient
    is earthed long before getting to that equipment - no damage. This is
    standard procedure even in telephone switching stations that are
    connected to overhead wires everywhere in town AND that are never
    disconnected during thunderstorms.

    A protector is not protection. A protector is nothing more than a
    connection to earth ground. If not connected short to earth, the
    protector does nothing useful. Plug-in protector manufacturers hope
    everyone never learns what protection is. Plug-in protectors don't
    have effective earthing. Furthermore plug-in protectors include a wire
    that connects destructive surges directly into electronics. A wire
    that completely bypassed power cord protection. By tracing and
    repairing damaged electronics, we have even demonstrated adjacent power
    strip protectors contributing to electronics damage.

    I don't see where anyone has made the claims that Leythos insists.
    Anything that a 'point of use' (on the power cord) protectors is going
    to accomplish is already inside the appliance. Without a short and
    dedicated connection is earth ground, then how will plug-in protectors
    shunt a destructive transient to earth? It cannot. Therefore no
    effective protection - for many times more money. The manufacture
    hopes you will assume their device will stop what three miles of sky
    could not. Shunt mode protectors just don't do that.

    A protector does not stop, block, or absorb the destructive transient.
    An effective protector shunts the destructive transient to earth long
    before that transient can get to electronics. In telephone switching
    stations, preferred separation between electronics and an earthed
    protector is 50 meters (150 feet). Furthermore, distance to earth
    ground is as near to zero feet as is possible. Shorter to earth means
    even better protection. Plug-in UPS does not provide such protection.
    But more expensive UPSes installed at the service entrance with that
    all so necessary earth ground do provide such protection.

    I don't know where Leythos' WE is. For example, a post from
    Vanguard:
    > Unless it is a pricey UPS, the consumer-grade UPS does
    > *not* have surge protection. ... The best solution is
    > the whole-home arrestor at the point-of-entry for power.
    > The surges you can create inside your home from your
    > appliances are way below what the switching power supply
    > inside your computer can handle.
    > ...

    As Whiskers noted:
    > Some 'surge protectors' are better than others, ...


    Without a short connection to earth, then a protector is not
    effective. More responsible electrical supply companies provide
    effective 'whole house' protectors: Square D, Polyphaser, Siemens,
    Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Leviton, and GE. Intentionally not listed
    are APC, Belkin, and Tripplite. What do ineffective protectors not
    provide and therefore avoid discussing? Earthing. No earth ground
    means no effective protection - which is why some protectors are so
    much better than others. Protection is about how electrically short
    that destructive transient connects to earth. A protector is as
    effective as its earth ground - the most critical component in every
    protection system.

    Leythos wrote:
    > Except that we've already provided examples where UPS devices DID
    > protect hardware while at the same time unprotected devices were
    > damaged. Seems strange that you keep insisting that a UPS can't protect
    > hardware when faced with the fact that time and time again it does.
    w_tom, Feb 16, 2006
    #16
  17. Vanguard Guest

    "w_tom" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > That 450 joules is how a manufacturer 'installed category one dikes'
    > and therefore has you assuming it will protect from category 3
    > hurricanes. 450 joules is 'grossly undersized'. Common in totally
    > ineffective protectors who promote their products do what is not
    > acceptable - vaporize.


    True. I probably wouldn't bother unless it was 10 times that. I didn't do
    much a search, but a 6000 joule unit at one online store cost $90. If the
    unit has no means of indicating that its surge protection is still working,
    you will never know when it is finally useless. I haven't gotten into the
    electronics to figure out if it is possible but, on the surface, I can't see
    how you could tell if a MOV was working or not since the "test" would seem
    to be destructive to the MOV (yet another puncture through its layers and
    weakening it further). How do you test a component that is normally open
    and shorts only at high[er] voltage without damaging it further and without
    inducing a surge that would be felt on the lines to the attached equipment?
    Maybe it can be done. Maybe the "open" is really a super high resistance
    that reduces as the MOV degrades after each surge hit. I know some units
    provide an indicator that their surge protection is working but I've always
    been leery that they are actually telling you anything useful.
    Vanguard, Feb 16, 2006
    #17
  18. Leythos Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    [snipped a repeat of the same]
    > Without a short connection to earth, then a protector is not
    > effective. More responsible electrical supply companies provide
    > effective 'whole house' protectors: Square D, Polyphaser, Siemens,
    > Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Leviton, and GE. Intentionally not listed
    > are APC, Belkin, and Tripplite. What do ineffective protectors not
    > provide and therefore avoid discussing? Earthing. No earth ground
    > means no effective protection - which is why some protectors are so
    > much better than others. Protection is about how electrically short
    > that destructive transient connects to earth. A protector is as
    > effective as its earth ground - the most critical component in every
    > protection system.
    >
    > Leythos wrote:
    > > Except that we've already provided examples where UPS devices DID
    > > protect hardware while at the same time unprotected devices were
    > > damaged. Seems strange that you keep insisting that a UPS can't protect
    > > hardware when faced with the fact that time and time again it does.


    You are not going to change my experiences or the experiences of others
    that have posted their (matching mine) over the last few years of
    replying to your assertions that a quality UPS does not protect.

    It has been my experience that a Quality UPS unit does protect hardware
    from electrical damage, in fact it's my experience a number of times
    where I can see that devices connected to the same AC source as the UPS
    were damaged, but the devices connected to the UPS were not damaged.

    You can keep claiming that a quality UPS won't protect hardware, but in
    the real world you've been proven wrong.

    There are points we agree on, the MOV units don't do much if anything,
    and a proper ground is needed for anything to be protected, but it does
    not require a whole-house protection, spot protection by a quality UPS
    unit does work.

    --


    remove 999 in order to email me
    Leythos, Feb 16, 2006
    #18
  19. w_tom Guest

    Superior 'whole house' protector (available at Home Depot or Lowes
    for under $50) would be equivalent to a 3600 joule plug-in protector .
    That is one protector for at less than $1 per protected appliance
    verses a $25 or $50 plug-in protector (that has less joules) for each
    and every appliance. Those Lowes and Home Depot products are on a
    previously posted list of responsible vendors.

    But let's say one installs a 'whole house' protector that is
    equivalent to a 6000 joule plug-in protector. That is maybe $1 per
    protected appliance. Remember, that bathroom GFCI that must always
    work is electronics. That smoke detector so critical to family life is
    electronics that also requires protection. Ditto for the dishwasher,
    clock radio, electronic light switches, portable phone base station,
    and even battery chargers. What protects all them?

    Meanwhile, without the 'less than 10 foot' earthing connection, those
    plug-in protectors forget to mention they don't protect from a
    transient that typically damages electronics. They protect from a type
    of transient made irrelevant by protection already inside appliances.

    How does one determine MOV failure (called degradation)? MOV
    manufacturers define a 1 milliamp test that measures MOV threshold
    voltage. IOW remove the MOV to test it. But that is generally
    considered unnecessary if a protector is minimally sized. For
    residential service, a protector should be at least 1000 joules and
    50,000 amps. Those responsible manufacturers previously listed sell
    such 'whole house' products in Home Depot, Lowes, and most electrical
    supply houses.

    Another 'whole house' solution is based upon semiconductors. These
    either always work or fail completely (and can inform the human of its
    failure). More expensive and they do not degrade.

    Normal failure mode for MOVs is not vaporizing or open. If MOV fails
    that way, then they were grossly undersized for the location and
    provided no effective protection. They failed on the first potentially
    destructive transient leaving the appliance to protect itself. By
    grossly undersizing them, then many humans assume the protector
    provided protection that was really internal to the appliance. MOVs
    that 'fail open' or vaporize, instead, failed to protect. Meanwhile,
    those lights on protectors only report that the MOV has failed in a
    mode that was unacceptable. Those lights do not report a protector as
    good or working properly.

    Also some protectors include a ground indicator. That light does not
    and obviously cannot report on earth ground. That ground light is but
    another gimmick to confuse the naive. The naive assume that safety
    ground indicator is reporting about a different ground - earth ground.
    Although both grounds share some wires, the two grounds are different.
    Protectors need an earth ground - and a short connection to that
    ground.

    Will a plug-in protector protect from the typically destructive
    transient? Myths will make that claim. But plug-in protectors - power
    strips or UPS - have all but no earth ground. No earth ground means no
    effective protection. So those plug-in protectors even avoid all
    mention of earthing. No sense letting you learn why they are not
    effective. Meanwhile, if a protector's MOVs are grossly undersized,
    then the naive will assume protection that was not provided.

    Effective protectors have sufficient joules so that destructive
    surges are unknown to a homeowner. Neither protector nor appliances
    fail when a protector does its job - which means the human knows
    nothing of that transient.

    Meanwhile, above ('whole house' protector) is about a secondary
    protection 'system'. A homeowner is advised to also inspect his
    primary protection 'system':
    http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
    Notice what is also essential for a primary protection 'system':
    earthing. No earth ground means that protection 'system' does not
    protect.

    Vanguard wrote:
    > True. I probably wouldn't bother unless it was 10 times that. I didn't do
    > much a search, but a 6000 joule unit at one online store cost $90. If the
    > unit has no means of indicating that its surge protection is still working,
    > you will never know when it is finally useless. I haven't gotten into the
    > electronics to figure out if it is possible but, on the surface, I can't see
    > how you could tell if a MOV was working or not since the "test" would seem
    > to be destructive to the MOV (yet another puncture through its layers and
    > weakening it further). How do you test a component that is normally open
    > and shorts only at high[er] voltage without damaging it further and without
    > inducing a surge that would be felt on the lines to the attached equipment?
    > Maybe it can be done. Maybe the "open" is really a super high resistance
    > that reduces as the MOV degrades after each surge hit. I know some units
    > provide an indicator that their surge protection is working but I've always
    > been leery that they are actually telling you anything useful.
    w_tom, Feb 16, 2006
    #19
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