Workstation Freezing Up

Discussion in 'Windows 64bit' started by Cheese_Thief, Dec 10, 2005.

  1. Cheese_Thief

    Cheese_Thief Guest

    Hello,

    I bought parts to build a workstation about a month ago and assembled
    the box myself. I am running dual Xeon 3.0GHz processor on a Intel
    SE7525GP2 motherboard. I bought 2 sticks of 1GB PC2700 ECC memory and
    have a 160GB Seagate HDD. I am also running Windows XP x64. After
    booting and working with it, it seems to run awesome for a while.
    However, I have been running into a freezing issue. It seems to run
    well for a while, which varies in length (time). After a while, it just
    freezes up. It seems to freeze when trying to play video media
    especially. I have been trying to troubleshoot this, but cannot seem to
    figure it out. The motherboard has four slots for memory, and are
    labled DIMM 1B, DIMM 1A, DIMM 2B, and DIMM 2A respectively. I have
    placed my memory sticks in DIMM 1B and DIMM 1A. I have a feeling it may
    have been my memory. I tried installing the memory in DIMM 1A and DIMM
    2A, but this doesn't change the freezing problem. If anyone has any
    clue what the problem could possibly be, it would be most appreciated.
    I updated the bios and everything else regarding my motherboard from
    the Intel website and webpage specifically for my motherboard. I have
    also installed the updates/drivers/patches for other parts of my
    workstation and from Windows Update. If anymore information is needed I
    will be happy to share.

    Thanks in advance for any advice...
    Cheese_Thief, Dec 10, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. 1.) Try a memory test utility. RAM can be a subtle problem that doesn't
    always show up the same in x64 as it does in x86. For more on possible
    testers and solutions, see my blog:
    http://msmvps.com/xperts64/archive/2005/09/01/64999.aspx

    2.) Probably not an issue on an Intel board, but turn off any overclocking.

    3.) The docs for the mobo should clearly state what slots to use for which
    memory configurations. Read that and make sure you're following it.

    4.) Does the mobo have any diagnostics or logging ability? Specifically
    around temperature. Frankly, those Xeons produce a LOT of heat, and if your
    case doesn't dissipate it well, or you didn't properly goop the heat sinks
    when you attached them to the chips, you could be seeing an overheating
    problem. That's actually the most likely given what you're describing.


    --
    Charlie.
    http://msmvps.com/xperts64

    Cheese_Thief wrote:
    > Hello,
    >
    > I bought parts to build a workstation about a month ago and assembled
    > the box myself. I am running dual Xeon 3.0GHz processor on a Intel
    > SE7525GP2 motherboard. I bought 2 sticks of 1GB PC2700 ECC memory and
    > have a 160GB Seagate HDD. I am also running Windows XP x64. After
    > booting and working with it, it seems to run awesome for a while.
    > However, I have been running into a freezing issue. It seems to run
    > well for a while, which varies in length (time). After a while, it just
    > freezes up. It seems to freeze when trying to play video media
    > especially. I have been trying to troubleshoot this, but cannot seem to
    > figure it out. The motherboard has four slots for memory, and are
    > labled DIMM 1B, DIMM 1A, DIMM 2B, and DIMM 2A respectively. I have
    > placed my memory sticks in DIMM 1B and DIMM 1A. I have a feeling it may
    > have been my memory. I tried installing the memory in DIMM 1A and DIMM
    > 2A, but this doesn't change the freezing problem. If anyone has any
    > clue what the problem could possibly be, it would be most appreciated.
    > I updated the bios and everything else regarding my motherboard from
    > the Intel website and webpage specifically for my motherboard. I have
    > also installed the updates/drivers/patches for other parts of my
    > workstation and from Windows Update. If anymore information is needed I
    > will be happy to share.
    >
    > Thanks in advance for any advice...
    Charlie Russel - MVP, Dec 10, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Cheese_Thief

    Cheese_Thief Guest

    Thank you for your quick reply Mr. Russel. As you recommended I
    attempted to visit your blog; however, it seems it is being upgraded or
    something. I understand the at Xeons produce quite a bit of heat.
    However, I used quite a bit of the coolant goop on them and bought new
    heat sinks and fans (which differ from the heat sinks that the xeons
    came with). I even bought a fan specifically for my memory directly
    from Intel. It seems that I am able to play my computer game WoW
    (World of Warcraft) for hours on end, but when playing windows media
    player or video files like I mention before causes the system to
    freeze. Just seems odd. I will do as you recommended and look for a
    memory test utility. Are there any that you recommend? Also, I did not
    attempt to overclock my processors. I didn't realize that Intel
    overclocks their boards or processors. If they do, how would I go about
    de-activating it? I will continue to try to hit your blog. I will also
    buy an extra fan for my case to see if I can rid of excess heat in my
    case. Again, I would like to sincerely thank you for responding to me
    so quickly with very helpful information.

    Cheers!
    Cheese_Thief, Dec 10, 2005
    #3
  4. Cheese_Thief

    Mercury Guest

    also check the psu & video card. Try a replacement of each.
    Ensure the PSU well exceeds requirements on *each* voltage. Try speedfan or
    mbm logging of voltages and look for spikes / drops at the time of crash. 5%
    sway of any single voltage is as far as I would tolerate.

    Video RAM failures can do this hence swapping out the card - if ATI, try
    NVidia and vice versa. Check drivers.

    mbm5, speedfan and other utils can also be used to log temp's.

    "Charlie Russel - MVP" <> wrote in message
    news:OIM8q5a$...
    > 1.) Try a memory test utility. RAM can be a subtle problem that doesn't
    > always show up the same in x64 as it does in x86. For more on possible
    > testers and solutions, see my blog:
    > http://msmvps.com/xperts64/archive/2005/09/01/64999.aspx
    >
    > 2.) Probably not an issue on an Intel board, but turn off any
    > overclocking.
    >
    > 3.) The docs for the mobo should clearly state what slots to use for which
    > memory configurations. Read that and make sure you're following it.
    >
    > 4.) Does the mobo have any diagnostics or logging ability? Specifically
    > around temperature. Frankly, those Xeons produce a LOT of heat, and if
    > your case doesn't dissipate it well, or you didn't properly goop the heat
    > sinks when you attached them to the chips, you could be seeing an
    > overheating problem. That's actually the most likely given what you're
    > describing.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Charlie.
    > http://msmvps.com/xperts64
    >
    > Cheese_Thief wrote:
    >> Hello,
    >>
    >> I bought parts to build a workstation about a month ago and assembled
    >> the box myself. I am running dual Xeon 3.0GHz processor on a Intel
    >> SE7525GP2 motherboard. I bought 2 sticks of 1GB PC2700 ECC memory and
    >> have a 160GB Seagate HDD. I am also running Windows XP x64. After
    >> booting and working with it, it seems to run awesome for a while.
    >> However, I have been running into a freezing issue. It seems to run
    >> well for a while, which varies in length (time). After a while, it just
    >> freezes up. It seems to freeze when trying to play video media
    >> especially. I have been trying to troubleshoot this, but cannot seem to
    >> figure it out. The motherboard has four slots for memory, and are
    >> labled DIMM 1B, DIMM 1A, DIMM 2B, and DIMM 2A respectively. I have
    >> placed my memory sticks in DIMM 1B and DIMM 1A. I have a feeling it may
    >> have been my memory. I tried installing the memory in DIMM 1A and DIMM
    >> 2A, but this doesn't change the freezing problem. If anyone has any
    >> clue what the problem could possibly be, it would be most appreciated.
    >> I updated the bios and everything else regarding my motherboard from
    >> the Intel website and webpage specifically for my motherboard. I have
    >> also installed the updates/drivers/patches for other parts of my
    >> workstation and from Windows Update. If anymore information is needed I
    >> will be happy to share.
    >>
    >> Thanks in advance for any advice...

    >
    >
    Mercury, Dec 10, 2005
    #4
  5. memtest86 has been well received by folks here.

    --
    Charlie.
    http://msmvps.com/xperts64

    Cheese_Thief wrote:
    > Thank you for your quick reply Mr. Russel. As you recommended I
    > attempted to visit your blog; however, it seems it is being upgraded or
    > something. I understand the at Xeons produce quite a bit of heat.
    > However, I used quite a bit of the coolant goop on them and bought new
    > heat sinks and fans (which differ from the heat sinks that the xeons
    > came with). I even bought a fan specifically for my memory directly
    > from Intel. It seems that I am able to play my computer game WoW
    > (World of Warcraft) for hours on end, but when playing windows media
    > player or video files like I mention before causes the system to
    > freeze. Just seems odd. I will do as you recommended and look for a
    > memory test utility. Are there any that you recommend? Also, I did not
    > attempt to overclock my processors. I didn't realize that Intel
    > overclocks their boards or processors. If they do, how would I go about
    > de-activating it? I will continue to try to hit your blog. I will also
    > buy an extra fan for my case to see if I can rid of excess heat in my
    > case. Again, I would like to sincerely thank you for responding to me
    > so quickly with very helpful information.
    >
    > Cheers!
    Charlie Russel - MVP, Dec 11, 2005
    #5
  6. The 'job' the thermal paste has to take care of, is to secure the transfer
    of thermal energy between separate parts - you know that of course, but it
    may not be a good idea to overuse the stuff as this will extend the distance
    between those parts - you need the thinnest possible layer, that still
    covers the area completely, of a good quality paste, and be careful with
    those that have metal particles in them, they are conductive!

    Mercury's tip on the PSU is also well worth contemplating, it is not rare
    that homebuilders - like myself, try to find money-saving devices. PSU's are
    too often valuated on the 'watt' rating, good quality goes far deeper.

    Tony. . .

    "Cheese_Thief" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hello,
    >
    > I bought parts to build a workstation about a month ago and assembled
    > the box myself. I am running dual Xeon 3.0GHz processor on a Intel
    > SE7525GP2 motherboard. I bought 2 sticks of 1GB PC2700 ECC memory and
    > have a 160GB Seagate HDD. I am also running Windows XP x64. After
    > booting and working with it, it seems to run awesome for a while.
    > However, I have been running into a freezing issue. It seems to run
    > well for a while, which varies in length (time). After a while, it just
    > freezes up. It seems to freeze when trying to play video media
    > especially. I have been trying to troubleshoot this, but cannot seem to
    > figure it out. The motherboard has four slots for memory, and are
    > labled DIMM 1B, DIMM 1A, DIMM 2B, and DIMM 2A respectively. I have
    > placed my memory sticks in DIMM 1B and DIMM 1A. I have a feeling it may
    > have been my memory. I tried installing the memory in DIMM 1A and DIMM
    > 2A, but this doesn't change the freezing problem. If anyone has any
    > clue what the problem could possibly be, it would be most appreciated.
    > I updated the bios and everything else regarding my motherboard from
    > the Intel website and webpage specifically for my motherboard. I have
    > also installed the updates/drivers/patches for other parts of my
    > workstation and from Windows Update. If anymore information is needed I
    > will be happy to share.
    >
    > Thanks in advance for any advice...
    >
    Tony Sperling, Dec 11, 2005
    #6
  7. Yes. And as the box gets warmer, the power supply may be losing some of it's
    rating. This very much feels like a temperature thing.

    --
    Charlie.
    http://msmvps.com/xperts64

    Tony Sperling wrote:
    > The 'job' the thermal paste has to take care of, is to secure the transfer
    > of thermal energy between separate parts - you know that of course, but it
    > may not be a good idea to overuse the stuff as this will extend the
    > distance between those parts - you need the thinnest possible layer, that
    > still covers the area completely, of a good quality paste, and be careful
    > with those that have metal particles in them, they are conductive!
    >
    > Mercury's tip on the PSU is also well worth contemplating, it is not rare
    > that homebuilders - like myself, try to find money-saving devices. PSU's
    > are too often valuated on the 'watt' rating, good quality goes far deeper.
    >
    > Tony. . .
    >
    > "Cheese_Thief" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Hello,
    >>
    >> I bought parts to build a workstation about a month ago and assembled
    >> the box myself. I am running dual Xeon 3.0GHz processor on a Intel
    >> SE7525GP2 motherboard. I bought 2 sticks of 1GB PC2700 ECC memory and
    >> have a 160GB Seagate HDD. I am also running Windows XP x64. After
    >> booting and working with it, it seems to run awesome for a while.
    >> However, I have been running into a freezing issue. It seems to run
    >> well for a while, which varies in length (time). After a while, it just
    >> freezes up. It seems to freeze when trying to play video media
    >> especially. I have been trying to troubleshoot this, but cannot seem to
    >> figure it out. The motherboard has four slots for memory, and are
    >> labled DIMM 1B, DIMM 1A, DIMM 2B, and DIMM 2A respectively. I have
    >> placed my memory sticks in DIMM 1B and DIMM 1A. I have a feeling it may
    >> have been my memory. I tried installing the memory in DIMM 1A and DIMM
    >> 2A, but this doesn't change the freezing problem. If anyone has any
    >> clue what the problem could possibly be, it would be most appreciated.
    >> I updated the bios and everything else regarding my motherboard from
    >> the Intel website and webpage specifically for my motherboard. I have
    >> also installed the updates/drivers/patches for other parts of my
    >> workstation and from Windows Update. If anymore information is needed I
    >> will be happy to share.
    >>
    >> Thanks in advance for any advice...
    Charlie Russel - MVP, Dec 12, 2005
    #7
  8. Quite, Charlie. And over all, thermal issues are much more difficult to
    handle than what is generally recognized, I think. My own box, as an
    example - I had a standard NorthQue PSU and a 120 mm cabinett fan in the
    front, sending a gentle breeze over the HD's. This worked very well, indeed.
    After installing a new graphics card, that is expelling a jet of hot air
    inside, I was really having trouble. After installing another 120 mm fan in
    the back of that card, the box was filled with a massive cushion of cold air
    that turned out to disturb the airflow inside - the NQ simply couldn't pass
    all that air out of the bow any longer. I turned the backside fan around so
    that now I have something like a small hurricane going throug the box,
    having cold air inside at all times, it doesn't help on the airflow of the
    system, but the environmental temperature is never over 42 deg. the
    processor, however, can run up to over 50 deg. this is not optimal, but it
    seems to work. To maintain an excellent airflow in that box, I would need
    something like a 180 mm faned PSU, but I don't know if such a thing exist,
    or if I could indeed pay for it.

    This experience tought me a lesson: To start designing the box as soon as
    you have settled on the processing components. Do NOT upgrade a standard
    desktop machine to a speed demon, unless you just love the smell of fried
    electronics!

    Tony. . .


    "Charlie Russel - MVP" <> wrote in message
    news:Ozzn8Mu$...
    > Yes. And as the box gets warmer, the power supply may be losing some of
    > it's rating. This very much feels like a temperature thing.
    >
    > --
    > Charlie.
    > http://msmvps.com/xperts64
    >
    > Tony Sperling wrote:
    >> The 'job' the thermal paste has to take care of, is to secure the
    >> transfer
    >> of thermal energy between separate parts - you know that of course, but
    >> it
    >> may not be a good idea to overuse the stuff as this will extend the
    >> distance between those parts - you need the thinnest possible layer, that
    >> still covers the area completely, of a good quality paste, and be careful
    >> with those that have metal particles in them, they are conductive!
    >>
    >> Mercury's tip on the PSU is also well worth contemplating, it is not rare
    >> that homebuilders - like myself, try to find money-saving devices. PSU's
    >> are too often valuated on the 'watt' rating, good quality goes far
    >> deeper.
    >>
    >> Tony. . .
    >>
    >> "Cheese_Thief" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> Hello,
    >>>
    >>> I bought parts to build a workstation about a month ago and assembled
    >>> the box myself. I am running dual Xeon 3.0GHz processor on a Intel
    >>> SE7525GP2 motherboard. I bought 2 sticks of 1GB PC2700 ECC memory and
    >>> have a 160GB Seagate HDD. I am also running Windows XP x64. After
    >>> booting and working with it, it seems to run awesome for a while.
    >>> However, I have been running into a freezing issue. It seems to run
    >>> well for a while, which varies in length (time). After a while, it just
    >>> freezes up. It seems to freeze when trying to play video media
    >>> especially. I have been trying to troubleshoot this, but cannot seem to
    >>> figure it out. The motherboard has four slots for memory, and are
    >>> labled DIMM 1B, DIMM 1A, DIMM 2B, and DIMM 2A respectively. I have
    >>> placed my memory sticks in DIMM 1B and DIMM 1A. I have a feeling it may
    >>> have been my memory. I tried installing the memory in DIMM 1A and DIMM
    >>> 2A, but this doesn't change the freezing problem. If anyone has any
    >>> clue what the problem could possibly be, it would be most appreciated.
    >>> I updated the bios and everything else regarding my motherboard from
    >>> the Intel website and webpage specifically for my motherboard. I have
    >>> also installed the updates/drivers/patches for other parts of my
    >>> workstation and from Windows Update. If anymore information is needed I
    >>> will be happy to share.
    >>>
    >>> Thanks in advance for any advice...

    >
    >
    Tony Sperling, Dec 12, 2005
    #8
  9. Well, I just spent the $$ for a new case for my SBS server. CPU temperatures
    dropped from 45 degrees C., to 31! Mobo from 39 to 29. Now THAT's real
    change.

    I _highly_ recommend the new Antec P-180 for a serious speed daemon
    machine -- it's an elegant and quite unusual case design that really moves
    the air effectively through the box. And it's QUIET. You'll need a good
    PSU -- I recommend the Seasonic PSUs - they're quiet, very efficient, and
    they are conservatively rated.


    --
    Charlie.
    http://msmvps.com/xperts64

    Tony Sperling wrote:
    > Quite, Charlie. And over all, thermal issues are much more difficult to
    > handle than what is generally recognized, I think. My own box, as an
    > example - I had a standard NorthQue PSU and a 120 mm cabinett fan in the
    > front, sending a gentle breeze over the HD's. This worked very well,
    > indeed. After installing a new graphics card, that is expelling a jet of
    > hot air inside, I was really having trouble. After installing another 120
    > mm fan in the back of that card, the box was filled with a massive
    > cushion of cold air that turned out to disturb the airflow inside - the
    > NQ simply couldn't pass all that air out of the bow any longer. I turned
    > the backside fan around so that now I have something like a small
    > hurricane going throug the box, having cold air inside at all times, it
    > doesn't help on the airflow of the system, but the environmental
    > temperature is never over 42 deg. the processor, however, can run up to
    > over 50 deg. this is not optimal, but it seems to work. To maintain an
    > excellent airflow in that box, I would need something like a 180 mm faned
    > PSU, but I don't know if such a thing exist, or if I could indeed pay for
    > it.
    > This experience tought me a lesson: To start designing the box as soon as
    > you have settled on the processing components. Do NOT upgrade a standard
    > desktop machine to a speed demon, unless you just love the smell of fried
    > electronics!
    >
    > Tony. . .
    >
    >
    > "Charlie Russel - MVP" <> wrote in message
    > news:Ozzn8Mu$...
    >> Yes. And as the box gets warmer, the power supply may be losing some of
    >> it's rating. This very much feels like a temperature thing.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Charlie.
    >> http://msmvps.com/xperts64
    >>
    >> Tony Sperling wrote:
    >>> The 'job' the thermal paste has to take care of, is to secure the
    >>> transfer
    >>> of thermal energy between separate parts - you know that of course, but
    >>> it
    >>> may not be a good idea to overuse the stuff as this will extend the
    >>> distance between those parts - you need the thinnest possible layer,
    >>> that still covers the area completely, of a good quality paste, and be
    >>> careful with those that have metal particles in them, they are
    >>> conductive! Mercury's tip on the PSU is also well worth contemplating,
    >>> it is not
    >>> rare that homebuilders - like myself, try to find money-saving devices.
    >>> PSU's are too often valuated on the 'watt' rating, good quality goes far
    >>> deeper.
    >>>
    >>> Tony. . .
    >>>
    >>> "Cheese_Thief" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> Hello,
    >>>>
    >>>> I bought parts to build a workstation about a month ago and assembled
    >>>> the box myself. I am running dual Xeon 3.0GHz processor on a Intel
    >>>> SE7525GP2 motherboard. I bought 2 sticks of 1GB PC2700 ECC memory and
    >>>> have a 160GB Seagate HDD. I am also running Windows XP x64. After
    >>>> booting and working with it, it seems to run awesome for a while.
    >>>> However, I have been running into a freezing issue. It seems to run
    >>>> well for a while, which varies in length (time). After a while, it just
    >>>> freezes up. It seems to freeze when trying to play video media
    >>>> especially. I have been trying to troubleshoot this, but cannot seem to
    >>>> figure it out. The motherboard has four slots for memory, and are
    >>>> labled DIMM 1B, DIMM 1A, DIMM 2B, and DIMM 2A respectively. I have
    >>>> placed my memory sticks in DIMM 1B and DIMM 1A. I have a feeling it may
    >>>> have been my memory. I tried installing the memory in DIMM 1A and DIMM
    >>>> 2A, but this doesn't change the freezing problem. If anyone has any
    >>>> clue what the problem could possibly be, it would be most appreciated.
    >>>> I updated the bios and everything else regarding my motherboard from
    >>>> the Intel website and webpage specifically for my motherboard. I have
    >>>> also installed the updates/drivers/patches for other parts of my
    >>>> workstation and from Windows Update. If anymore information is needed I
    >>>> will be happy to share.
    >>>>
    >>>> Thanks in advance for any advice...
    Charlie Russel - MVP, Dec 12, 2005
    #9
  10. I did the same thing for my P4 machines and installed fans in all available
    locations. I went from running in the high 50's at times to middle 30's. A
    thermally-advantaged case and a full set of fans is very effective.

    --
    Colin Barnhorst [MVP Windows - Virtual Machine]
    (Reply to the group only unless otherwise requested)
    "Charlie Russel - MVP" <> wrote in message
    news:%23yoaPk2$...
    > Well, I just spent the $$ for a new case for my SBS server. CPU
    > temperatures dropped from 45 degrees C., to 31! Mobo from 39 to 29. Now
    > THAT's real change.
    >
    > I _highly_ recommend the new Antec P-180 for a serious speed daemon
    > machine -- it's an elegant and quite unusual case design that really moves
    > the air effectively through the box. And it's QUIET. You'll need a good
    > PSU -- I recommend the Seasonic PSUs - they're quiet, very efficient, and
    > they are conservatively rated.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Charlie.
    > http://msmvps.com/xperts64
    >
    > Tony Sperling wrote:
    >> Quite, Charlie. And over all, thermal issues are much more difficult to
    >> handle than what is generally recognized, I think. My own box, as an
    >> example - I had a standard NorthQue PSU and a 120 mm cabinett fan in the
    >> front, sending a gentle breeze over the HD's. This worked very well,
    >> indeed. After installing a new graphics card, that is expelling a jet of
    >> hot air inside, I was really having trouble. After installing another 120
    >> mm fan in the back of that card, the box was filled with a massive
    >> cushion of cold air that turned out to disturb the airflow inside - the
    >> NQ simply couldn't pass all that air out of the bow any longer. I turned
    >> the backside fan around so that now I have something like a small
    >> hurricane going throug the box, having cold air inside at all times, it
    >> doesn't help on the airflow of the system, but the environmental
    >> temperature is never over 42 deg. the processor, however, can run up to
    >> over 50 deg. this is not optimal, but it seems to work. To maintain an
    >> excellent airflow in that box, I would need something like a 180 mm faned
    >> PSU, but I don't know if such a thing exist, or if I could indeed pay for
    >> it.
    >> This experience tought me a lesson: To start designing the box as soon as
    >> you have settled on the processing components. Do NOT upgrade a standard
    >> desktop machine to a speed demon, unless you just love the smell of fried
    >> electronics!
    >>
    >> Tony. . .
    >>
    >>
    >> "Charlie Russel - MVP" <> wrote in message
    >> news:Ozzn8Mu$...
    >>> Yes. And as the box gets warmer, the power supply may be losing some of
    >>> it's rating. This very much feels like a temperature thing.
    >>>
    >>> --
    >>> Charlie.
    >>> http://msmvps.com/xperts64
    >>>
    >>> Tony Sperling wrote:
    >>>> The 'job' the thermal paste has to take care of, is to secure the
    >>>> transfer
    >>>> of thermal energy between separate parts - you know that of course, but
    >>>> it
    >>>> may not be a good idea to overuse the stuff as this will extend the
    >>>> distance between those parts - you need the thinnest possible layer,
    >>>> that still covers the area completely, of a good quality paste, and be
    >>>> careful with those that have metal particles in them, they are
    >>>> conductive! Mercury's tip on the PSU is also well worth contemplating,
    >>>> it is not
    >>>> rare that homebuilders - like myself, try to find money-saving devices.
    >>>> PSU's are too often valuated on the 'watt' rating, good quality goes
    >>>> far
    >>>> deeper.
    >>>>
    >>>> Tony. . .
    >>>>
    >>>> "Cheese_Thief" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:...
    >>>>> Hello,
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I bought parts to build a workstation about a month ago and assembled
    >>>>> the box myself. I am running dual Xeon 3.0GHz processor on a Intel
    >>>>> SE7525GP2 motherboard. I bought 2 sticks of 1GB PC2700 ECC memory and
    >>>>> have a 160GB Seagate HDD. I am also running Windows XP x64. After
    >>>>> booting and working with it, it seems to run awesome for a while.
    >>>>> However, I have been running into a freezing issue. It seems to run
    >>>>> well for a while, which varies in length (time). After a while, it
    >>>>> just
    >>>>> freezes up. It seems to freeze when trying to play video media
    >>>>> especially. I have been trying to troubleshoot this, but cannot seem
    >>>>> to
    >>>>> figure it out. The motherboard has four slots for memory, and are
    >>>>> labled DIMM 1B, DIMM 1A, DIMM 2B, and DIMM 2A respectively. I have
    >>>>> placed my memory sticks in DIMM 1B and DIMM 1A. I have a feeling it
    >>>>> may
    >>>>> have been my memory. I tried installing the memory in DIMM 1A and DIMM
    >>>>> 2A, but this doesn't change the freezing problem. If anyone has any
    >>>>> clue what the problem could possibly be, it would be most appreciated.
    >>>>> I updated the bios and everything else regarding my motherboard from
    >>>>> the Intel website and webpage specifically for my motherboard. I have
    >>>>> also installed the updates/drivers/patches for other parts of my
    >>>>> workstation and from Windows Update. If anymore information is needed
    >>>>> I
    >>>>> will be happy to share.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Thanks in advance for any advice...

    >
    >
    Colin Barnhorst, Dec 12, 2005
    #10
  11. The key for me is cool AND quiet. A lot of the cases that do a good job of
    cooling are rather noisy. The P180 is both.

    --
    Charlie.
    http://msmvps.com/xperts64

    Colin Barnhorst wrote:
    > I did the same thing for my P4 machines and installed fans in all
    > available locations. I went from running in the high 50's at times to
    > middle 30's. A thermally-advantaged case and a full set of fans is very
    > effective.
    >> Well, I just spent the $$ for a new case for my SBS server. CPU
    >> temperatures dropped from 45 degrees C., to 31! Mobo from 39 to 29. Now
    >> THAT's real change.
    >>
    >> I _highly_ recommend the new Antec P-180 for a serious speed daemon
    >> machine -- it's an elegant and quite unusual case design that really
    >> moves the air effectively through the box. And it's QUIET. You'll need a
    >> good PSU -- I recommend the Seasonic PSUs - they're quiet, very
    >> efficient, and they are conservatively rated.
    >>
    >>
    >> --
    >> Charlie.
    >> http://msmvps.com/xperts64
    >>
    >> Tony Sperling wrote:
    >>> Quite, Charlie. And over all, thermal issues are much more difficult to
    >>> handle than what is generally recognized, I think. My own box, as an
    >>> example - I had a standard NorthQue PSU and a 120 mm cabinett fan in the
    >>> front, sending a gentle breeze over the HD's. This worked very well,
    >>> indeed. After installing a new graphics card, that is expelling a jet of
    >>> hot air inside, I was really having trouble. After installing another
    >>> 120 mm fan in the back of that card, the box was filled with a massive
    >>> cushion of cold air that turned out to disturb the airflow inside - the
    >>> NQ simply couldn't pass all that air out of the bow any longer. I turned
    >>> the backside fan around so that now I have something like a small
    >>> hurricane going throug the box, having cold air inside at all times, it
    >>> doesn't help on the airflow of the system, but the environmental
    >>> temperature is never over 42 deg. the processor, however, can run up to
    >>> over 50 deg. this is not optimal, but it seems to work. To maintain an
    >>> excellent airflow in that box, I would need something like a 180 mm
    >>> faned PSU, but I don't know if such a thing exist, or if I could indeed
    >>> pay for it.
    >>> This experience tought me a lesson: To start designing the box as soon
    >>> as you have settled on the processing components. Do NOT upgrade a
    >>> standard desktop machine to a speed demon, unless you just love the
    >>> smell of fried electronics!
    >>>
    >>> Tony. . .
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> "Charlie Russel - MVP" <> wrote in
    >>> message news:Ozzn8Mu$...
    >>>> Yes. And as the box gets warmer, the power supply may be losing some of
    >>>> it's rating. This very much feels like a temperature thing.
    >>>>
    >>>> --
    >>>> Charlie.
    >>>> http://msmvps.com/xperts64
    >>>>
    >>>> Tony Sperling wrote:
    >>>>> The 'job' the thermal paste has to take care of, is to secure the
    >>>>> transfer
    >>>>> of thermal energy between separate parts - you know that of course,
    >>>>> but it
    >>>>> may not be a good idea to overuse the stuff as this will extend the
    >>>>> distance between those parts - you need the thinnest possible layer,
    >>>>> that still covers the area completely, of a good quality paste, and be
    >>>>> careful with those that have metal particles in them, they are
    >>>>> conductive! Mercury's tip on the PSU is also well worth contemplating,
    >>>>> it is not
    >>>>> rare that homebuilders - like myself, try to find money-saving
    >>>>> devices. PSU's are too often valuated on the 'watt' rating, good
    >>>>> quality goes far
    >>>>> deeper.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Tony. . .
    >>>>>
    >>>>> "Cheese_Thief" <> wrote in message
    >>>>> news:...
    >>>>>> Hello,
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I bought parts to build a workstation about a month ago and assembled
    >>>>>> the box myself. I am running dual Xeon 3.0GHz processor on a Intel
    >>>>>> SE7525GP2 motherboard. I bought 2 sticks of 1GB PC2700 ECC memory and
    >>>>>> have a 160GB Seagate HDD. I am also running Windows XP x64. After
    >>>>>> booting and working with it, it seems to run awesome for a while.
    >>>>>> However, I have been running into a freezing issue. It seems to run
    >>>>>> well for a while, which varies in length (time). After a while, it
    >>>>>> just
    >>>>>> freezes up. It seems to freeze when trying to play video media
    >>>>>> especially. I have been trying to troubleshoot this, but cannot seem
    >>>>>> to
    >>>>>> figure it out. The motherboard has four slots for memory, and are
    >>>>>> labled DIMM 1B, DIMM 1A, DIMM 2B, and DIMM 2A respectively. I have
    >>>>>> placed my memory sticks in DIMM 1B and DIMM 1A. I have a feeling it
    >>>>>> may
    >>>>>> have been my memory. I tried installing the memory in DIMM 1A and
    >>>>>> DIMM 2A, but this doesn't change the freezing problem. If anyone has
    >>>>>> any clue what the problem could possibly be, it would be most
    >>>>>> appreciated. I updated the bios and everything else regarding my
    >>>>>> motherboard from the Intel website and webpage specifically for my
    >>>>>> motherboard. I have also installed the updates/drivers/patches for
    >>>>>> other parts of my workstation and from Windows Update. If anymore
    >>>>>> information is needed I
    >>>>>> will be happy to share.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Thanks in advance for any advice...
    Charlie Russel - MVP, Dec 12, 2005
    #11
  12. Thanks, Charlie. Suggestions with names to them - that is appreciated! I
    don't think the Antecs are common here in DK, but a year or so ago there was
    quite a lot of people drooling over some Chinese Aluminum box that aroused
    my interrest, (the name slips, though) and personally, I've been drooling
    myself for a PC Power&Cooling PSU but there isn't much talk about those
    anymore it seems? My bankmanager will not like to here about any of those
    two anyway, I'm affraid, so I'll certainly try and see what I can find here
    about your suggestions.

    Tony. . .


    "Charlie Russel - MVP" <> wrote in message
    news:%23yoaPk2$...
    > Well, I just spent the $$ for a new case for my SBS server. CPU
    > temperatures dropped from 45 degrees C., to 31! Mobo from 39 to 29. Now
    > THAT's real change.
    >
    > I _highly_ recommend the new Antec P-180 for a serious speed daemon
    > machine -- it's an elegant and quite unusual case design that really moves
    > the air effectively through the box. And it's QUIET. You'll need a good
    > PSU -- I recommend the Seasonic PSUs - they're quiet, very efficient, and
    > they are conservatively rated.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Charlie.
    > http://msmvps.com/xperts64
    >
    > Tony Sperling wrote:
    >> Quite, Charlie. And over all, thermal issues are much more difficult to
    >> handle than what is generally recognized, I think. My own box, as an
    >> example - I had a standard NorthQue PSU and a 120 mm cabinett fan in the
    >> front, sending a gentle breeze over the HD's. This worked very well,
    >> indeed. After installing a new graphics card, that is expelling a jet of
    >> hot air inside, I was really having trouble. After installing another 120
    >> mm fan in the back of that card, the box was filled with a massive
    >> cushion of cold air that turned out to disturb the airflow inside - the
    >> NQ simply couldn't pass all that air out of the bow any longer. I turned
    >> the backside fan around so that now I have something like a small
    >> hurricane going throug the box, having cold air inside at all times, it
    >> doesn't help on the airflow of the system, but the environmental
    >> temperature is never over 42 deg. the processor, however, can run up to
    >> over 50 deg. this is not optimal, but it seems to work. To maintain an
    >> excellent airflow in that box, I would need something like a 180 mm faned
    >> PSU, but I don't know if such a thing exist, or if I could indeed pay for
    >> it.
    >> This experience tought me a lesson: To start designing the box as soon as
    >> you have settled on the processing components. Do NOT upgrade a standard
    >> desktop machine to a speed demon, unless you just love the smell of fried
    >> electronics!
    >>
    >> Tony. . .
    >>
    >>
    >> "Charlie Russel - MVP" <> wrote in message
    >> news:Ozzn8Mu$...
    >>> Yes. And as the box gets warmer, the power supply may be losing some of
    >>> it's rating. This very much feels like a temperature thing.
    >>>
    >>> --
    >>> Charlie.
    >>> http://msmvps.com/xperts64
    >>>
    >>> Tony Sperling wrote:
    >>>> The 'job' the thermal paste has to take care of, is to secure the
    >>>> transfer
    >>>> of thermal energy between separate parts - you know that of course, but
    >>>> it
    >>>> may not be a good idea to overuse the stuff as this will extend the
    >>>> distance between those parts - you need the thinnest possible layer,
    >>>> that still covers the area completely, of a good quality paste, and be
    >>>> careful with those that have metal particles in them, they are
    >>>> conductive! Mercury's tip on the PSU is also well worth contemplating,
    >>>> it is not
    >>>> rare that homebuilders - like myself, try to find money-saving devices.
    >>>> PSU's are too often valuated on the 'watt' rating, good quality goes
    >>>> far
    >>>> deeper.
    >>>>
    >>>> Tony. . .
    >>>>
    >>>> "Cheese_Thief" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:...
    >>>>> Hello,
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I bought parts to build a workstation about a month ago and assembled
    >>>>> the box myself. I am running dual Xeon 3.0GHz processor on a Intel
    >>>>> SE7525GP2 motherboard. I bought 2 sticks of 1GB PC2700 ECC memory and
    >>>>> have a 160GB Seagate HDD. I am also running Windows XP x64. After
    >>>>> booting and working with it, it seems to run awesome for a while.
    >>>>> However, I have been running into a freezing issue. It seems to run
    >>>>> well for a while, which varies in length (time). After a while, it
    >>>>> just
    >>>>> freezes up. It seems to freeze when trying to play video media
    >>>>> especially. I have been trying to troubleshoot this, but cannot seem
    >>>>> to
    >>>>> figure it out. The motherboard has four slots for memory, and are
    >>>>> labled DIMM 1B, DIMM 1A, DIMM 2B, and DIMM 2A respectively. I have
    >>>>> placed my memory sticks in DIMM 1B and DIMM 1A. I have a feeling it
    >>>>> may
    >>>>> have been my memory. I tried installing the memory in DIMM 1A and DIMM
    >>>>> 2A, but this doesn't change the freezing problem. If anyone has any
    >>>>> clue what the problem could possibly be, it would be most appreciated.
    >>>>> I updated the bios and everything else regarding my motherboard from
    >>>>> the Intel website and webpage specifically for my motherboard. I have
    >>>>> also installed the updates/drivers/patches for other parts of my
    >>>>> workstation and from Windows Update. If anymore information is needed
    >>>>> I
    >>>>> will be happy to share.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Thanks in advance for any advice...

    >
    >
    Tony Sperling, Dec 13, 2005
    #12
  13. Cheese_Thief

    Colin Nowell Guest

    Hi Tony,

    "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message
    news:eouYx53$...
    > Thanks, Charlie. Suggestions with names to them - that is appreciated! I
    > don't think the Antecs are common here in DK, but a year or so ago there
    > was quite a lot of people drooling over some Chinese Aluminum box that
    > aroused my interrest, (the name slips, though) and personally, I've been
    > drooling myself for a PC Power&Cooling PSU but there isn't much talk about
    > those anymore it seems? My bankmanager will not like to here about any of
    > those two anyway, I'm affraid, so I'll certainly try and see what I can
    > find here about your suggestions.


    Do you ever come across Arctic Cooling cases over there?

    http://www.arctic-cooling.com/pc_case2.php?idx=4

    This is the one I bought for my new x64 system and I have nothing but good
    things to say about it.

    As you can see from the cutaway diagram, it has a new novel approach to
    cooling and it is oh so quiet and everything runs cool as a cucumber.
    Working on the principle of wider aperture, steeper bladed but slower fans,
    it shifts masses of air more quietly and in a more effective way (IMO).

    I have a Thinkpad running in a dock station (work machine) also on my desk
    and believe it or not, when its fan starts up it is noisier than my main
    machine!

    Colin
    Colin Nowell, Dec 13, 2005
    #13
  14. Well, we are a lot of 5.000.000 people here, tech-level is very high, but
    naturally not everything is easily available at all times. Yes, I've heard
    about it, but cannot be certain from where, as the computer mag's I read are
    mostly from the US/UK.

    I am greatefull for such news, and will scoure the market to see what comes
    up.

    Ahh, will mentioning the prize be triggering any alarms in a bank you
    imagine?


    Tony. . .


    "Colin Nowell" <> wrote in message
    news:%23RpQ8h5$...
    > Hi Tony,
    >
    > "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message
    > news:eouYx53$...
    >> Thanks, Charlie. Suggestions with names to them - that is appreciated! I
    >> don't think the Antecs are common here in DK, but a year or so ago there
    >> was quite a lot of people drooling over some Chinese Aluminum box that
    >> aroused my interrest, (the name slips, though) and personally, I've been
    >> drooling myself for a PC Power&Cooling PSU but there isn't much talk
    >> about those anymore it seems? My bankmanager will not like to here about
    >> any of those two anyway, I'm affraid, so I'll certainly try and see what
    >> I can find here about your suggestions.

    >
    > Do you ever come across Arctic Cooling cases over there?
    >
    > http://www.arctic-cooling.com/pc_case2.php?idx=4
    >
    > This is the one I bought for my new x64 system and I have nothing but good
    > things to say about it.
    >
    > As you can see from the cutaway diagram, it has a new novel approach to
    > cooling and it is oh so quiet and everything runs cool as a cucumber.
    > Working on the principle of wider aperture, steeper bladed but slower
    > fans, it shifts masses of air more quietly and in a more effective way
    > (IMO).
    >
    > I have a Thinkpad running in a dock station (work machine) also on my desk
    > and believe it or not, when its fan starts up it is noisier than my main
    > machine!
    >
    > Colin
    >
    Tony Sperling, Dec 13, 2005
    #14
  15. Cheese_Thief

    Colin Nowell Guest

    Not at all... I can't remember the exact price but I seem to recall it was
    in the region of GB£65.... Quite reasonable I thought... That would be about
    100 Euros wouldn't it?

    Colin

    "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message
    news:%23ZdGLC8$...
    > Well, we are a lot of 5.000.000 people here, tech-level is very high, but
    > naturally not everything is easily available at all times. Yes, I've heard
    > about it, but cannot be certain from where, as the computer mag's I read
    > are mostly from the US/UK.
    >
    > I am greatefull for such news, and will scoure the market to see what
    > comes up.
    >
    > Ahh, will mentioning the prize be triggering any alarms in a bank you
    > imagine?
    Colin Nowell, Dec 14, 2005
    #15
  16. If I remember right, it may be closer to 125 Euros.

    --
    Colin Barnhorst [MVP Windows - Virtual Machine]
    (Reply to the group only unless otherwise requested)
    "Colin Nowell" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Not at all... I can't remember the exact price but I seem to recall it was
    > in the region of GB£65.... Quite reasonable I thought... That would be
    > about 100 Euros wouldn't it?
    >
    > Colin
    >
    > "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message
    > news:%23ZdGLC8$...
    >> Well, we are a lot of 5.000.000 people here, tech-level is very high, but
    >> naturally not everything is easily available at all times. Yes, I've
    >> heard about it, but cannot be certain from where, as the computer mag's I
    >> read are mostly from the US/UK.
    >>
    >> I am greatefull for such news, and will scoure the market to see what
    >> comes up.
    >>
    >> Ahh, will mentioning the prize be triggering any alarms in a bank you
    >> imagine?

    >
    >
    Colin Barnhorst, Dec 14, 2005
    #16
  17. Cheese_Thief

    Wim Zefat Guest

    Well, if we're comparing cases, here's mine:

    http://global.giga-byte.com/Peripherals/Products/Products_GZ-FSCA1-ANS(ANB).htm

    Gigabyte may not be a well known name as far as cases are concerned, but
    the 3d Aurora really is a very nice case. Very light weight, very quiet.
    Comes with three 120 mm low speed fans installed (one in front, two in
    back). Also, it has a perforated front, so it actually sucks air in through
    the front, instead of hoovering all the dust out of the carpet, like most
    cases with front fans do. It keeps my P4 640 at 26 C idle (up to low 40's
    under full load) :) Cost me 149 Euros.

    Wim

    Op Tue, 13 Dec 2005 03:51:20 -0000 schreef Colin Nowell:

    > Hi Tony,
    >
    > "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message
    > news:eouYx53$...
    >> Thanks, Charlie. Suggestions with names to them - that is appreciated! I
    >> don't think the Antecs are common here in DK, but a year or so ago there
    >> was quite a lot of people drooling over some Chinese Aluminum box that
    >> aroused my interrest, (the name slips, though) and personally, I've been
    >> drooling myself for a PC Power&Cooling PSU but there isn't much talk about
    >> those anymore it seems? My bankmanager will not like to here about any of
    >> those two anyway, I'm affraid, so I'll certainly try and see what I can
    >> find here about your suggestions.

    >
    > Do you ever come across Arctic Cooling cases over there?
    >
    > http://www.arctic-cooling.com/pc_case2.php?idx=4
    >
    > This is the one I bought for my new x64 system and I have nothing but good
    > things to say about it.
    >
    > As you can see from the cutaway diagram, it has a new novel approach to
    > cooling and it is oh so quiet and everything runs cool as a cucumber.
    > Working on the principle of wider aperture, steeper bladed but slower fans,
    > it shifts masses of air more quietly and in a more effective way (IMO).
    >
    > I have a Thinkpad running in a dock station (work machine) also on my desk
    > and believe it or not, when its fan starts up it is noisier than my main
    > machine!
    >
    > Colin
    Wim Zefat, Dec 14, 2005
    #17
  18. Indeed, reasonable. That's about what I payed for my present case - with
    which I am actually very pleased, don't know what it's called, the
    card-board box says 'Levicom', lot's of room inside, drive bays swing out,
    the case itself comes apart in sections.

    The real culprit actually is that GF 6600 GT - it can easily and on it's
    own, warm up a chilled room in under an hour. What I would really need would
    be a really massive PSU fan!

    I don't think I will upgrade this machine, if not for that PSU. When time
    comes to get into something new, I will do it from scratch, and try and put
    the recently aquired knowledge to good use. That's why I like to hear about
    these 'hands-on reviews'. This machine is stable as bed-rock, I would hate
    to strip it down. If what I plan for blows away the budget, I should be able
    to let someone else have the pleasure of it's subdued, warming precense.

    'Piet Hein', once described someone as: "The kind of friend who won't let
    you forget it".
    My machine is not entirely of that sort.


    Tony. . .


    "Colin Nowell" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Not at all... I can't remember the exact price but I seem to recall it was
    > in the region of GB£65.... Quite reasonable I thought... That would be
    > about 100 Euros wouldn't it?
    >
    > Colin
    >
    > "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message
    > news:%23ZdGLC8$...
    >> Well, we are a lot of 5.000.000 people here, tech-level is very high, but
    >> naturally not everything is easily available at all times. Yes, I've
    >> heard about it, but cannot be certain from where, as the computer mag's I
    >> read are mostly from the US/UK.
    >>
    >> I am greatefull for such news, and will scoure the market to see what
    >> comes up.
    >>
    >> Ahh, will mentioning the prize be triggering any alarms in a bank you
    >> imagine?

    >
    >
    Tony Sperling, Dec 14, 2005
    #18
  19. Conversion rates don't actaully add up if compared nation-to-nation, that's
    how some can make small fortunes over-night by making large fortunes travel
    the globe as the sun is going down.

    100? today is selling for 67.00 GBP.

    Tony. . .



    "Colin Barnhorst" <colinbarharst(remove)@msn.com> wrote in message
    news:...
    > If I remember right, it may be closer to 125 Euros.
    >
    > --
    > Colin Barnhorst [MVP Windows - Virtual Machine]
    > (Reply to the group only unless otherwise requested)
    > "Colin Nowell" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Not at all... I can't remember the exact price but I seem to recall it
    >> was in the region of GB£65.... Quite reasonable I thought... That would
    >> be about 100 Euros wouldn't it?
    >>
    >> Colin
    >>
    >> "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message
    >> news:%23ZdGLC8$...
    >>> Well, we are a lot of 5.000.000 people here, tech-level is very high,
    >>> but naturally not everything is easily available at all times. Yes, I've
    >>> heard about it, but cannot be certain from where, as the computer mag's
    >>> I read are mostly from the US/UK.
    >>>
    >>> I am greatefull for such news, and will scoure the market to see what
    >>> comes up.
    >>>
    >>> Ahh, will mentioning the prize be triggering any alarms in a bank you
    >>> imagine?

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Tony Sperling, Dec 14, 2005
    #19
  20. Sorry - I didn't anticipate the EURO sign being censored away, but that's
    what it should have been.

    Tony. . .


    "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message
    news:uSs%...
    > Conversion rates don't actaully add up if compared nation-to-nation,
    > that's how some can make small fortunes over-night by making large
    > fortunes travel the globe as the sun is going down.
    >
    > 100? today is selling for 67.00 GBP.
    >
    > Tony. . .
    >
    >
    >
    > "Colin Barnhorst" <colinbarharst(remove)@msn.com> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> If I remember right, it may be closer to 125 Euros.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Colin Barnhorst [MVP Windows - Virtual Machine]
    >> (Reply to the group only unless otherwise requested)
    >> "Colin Nowell" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> Not at all... I can't remember the exact price but I seem to recall it
    >>> was in the region of GB£65.... Quite reasonable I thought... That would
    >>> be about 100 Euros wouldn't it?
    >>>
    >>> Colin
    >>>
    >>> "Tony Sperling" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:%23ZdGLC8$...
    >>>> Well, we are a lot of 5.000.000 people here, tech-level is very high,
    >>>> but naturally not everything is easily available at all times. Yes,
    >>>> I've heard about it, but cannot be certain from where, as the computer
    >>>> mag's I read are mostly from the US/UK.
    >>>>
    >>>> I am greatefull for such news, and will scoure the market to see what
    >>>> comes up.
    >>>>
    >>>> Ahh, will mentioning the prize be triggering any alarms in a bank you
    >>>> imagine?
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Tony Sperling, Dec 14, 2005
    #20
    1. Advertising

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