Wishlist for a 10D successor?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Lionel, Aug 21, 2003.

  1. Lionel

    Lionel Guest

    What would you like to see on a hypothetical 10E? (ie; a later model at
    around the same price.)

    Here's my list:
    * Spot metering.
    * Programmable mode dial, so you could replace those irritating dummy
    modes with something that /you/ find useful.
    * Replacable focus screen. (I *like* having manual focus available, &
    going without it is a bit like losing a thumb.)
    * Firewire. Who the hell has the time to wait for 512MB of data to
    trickle down a USB connection?
    * A standard eyepiece that doesn't force you to grease up the LCD with
    skin oils from your nose & cheek.
    * A single button 'focus-check' zoom function for the preview screen,
    because even 10x zoom is barely adequate to check focus, & takes too
    many keystrokes anyway.
    * More pixels would be nice, but I care more about the previous items.

    --
    W
    . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
    \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
    ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Lionel, Aug 21, 2003
    #1
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  2. Lionel

    Chris Brown Guest

    In article <bi2dqg$j9t$>, Lionel <> wrote:
    >What would you like to see on a hypothetical 10E? (ie; a later model at
    >around the same price.)
    >
    >Here's my list:
    >* Spot metering.


    Definitely - the lack of such is a pain in the backside when one can't find
    something in the scene that is both suitable for metering from, and is large
    enough to fill the partial meter circle. Are you listening, Canon? WE WANT
    SPOT METERING!

    >* Programmable mode dial, so you could replace those irritating dummy
    >modes with something that /you/ find useful.


    Or just take them off altogether. Mine is nealrly always in Av or M modes
    anyway.

    >* Replacable focus screen. (I *like* having manual focus available, &
    >going without it is a bit like losing a thumb.)


    ....and a focus screen with a microprism in it available as an option.

    >* Firewire. Who the hell has the time to wait for 512MB of data to
    >trickle down a USB connection?


    I already use firewire to download from my 10D, via a card reader. :p

    >* A standard eyepiece that doesn't force you to grease up the LCD with
    >skin oils from your nose & cheek.


    Not found this to be an issue

    >* A single button 'focus-check' zoom function for the preview screen,
    >because even 10x zoom is barely adequate to check focus, & takes too
    >many keystrokes anyway.


    That might be useful.

    >* More pixels would be nice, but I care more about the previous items.


    Not overly bothered about the pixel count. I was getting wonderful results
    from my old D30 - the 10D gives me pixels to spare, which is nice
    (especially when it comes to cropping).

    One thing that would be nice is eye-control on the autofocus. WIthout it,
    the extra 6 focus points just seem to get in the way (I disabled them on
    mine).

    --
    /* _ */main(int k,char**n){char*i=k&1?"+L*;99,RU[,RUo+BeKAA+BECACJ+CAACA"
    /* / ` */"CD+LBCACJ*":1[n],j,l=!k,m;do for(m=*i-48,j=l?m/k:m%k;m>>7?k=1<<m+
    /* | */8,!l&&puts(&l)**&l:j--;printf(" \0_/"+l));while((l^=3)||l[++i]);
    /* \_,hris Brown -- All opinions expressed are probably wrong. */return 0;}
     
    Chris Brown, Aug 21, 2003
    #2
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  3. Good list. I'll add

    * Lower Price, same quality

    and I'd like 8Mpixel, thank you. ;-)

    Godfrey

    On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 8:23:31 -0400, Lionel wrote
    (in message <bi2dqg$j9t$>):

    > What would you like to see on a hypothetical 10E? (ie; a later model at
    > around the same price.)
    >
    > Here's my list:
    > * Spot metering.
    > * Programmable mode dial, so you could replace those irritating dummy
    > modes with something that /you/ find useful.
    > * Replacable focus screen. (I *like* having manual focus available, &
    > going without it is a bit like losing a thumb.)
    > * Firewire. Who the hell has the time to wait for 512MB of data to
    > trickle down a USB connection?
    > * A standard eyepiece that doesn't force you to grease up the LCD with
    > skin oils from your nose & cheek.
    > * A single button 'focus-check' zoom function for the preview screen,
    > because even 10x zoom is barely adequate to check focus, & takes too
    > many keystrokes anyway.
    > * More pixels would be nice, but I care more about the previous items.
    >
    >
     
    Godfrey DiGiorgi, Aug 21, 2003
    #3
  4. Lionel

    Aardvark Guest

    > * More pixels would be nice, but I care more about the previous items.

    A full frame sensor would be nice. Or at least something with a smaller than
    1.6 multiplier.
     
    Aardvark, Aug 21, 2003
    #4
  5. Lionel

    Ken Alverson Guest

    "Chris Brown" <_uce_please.com> wrote in message
    news:bi2en0$4mf$...
    > In article <bi2dqg$j9t$>, Lionel <> wrote:
    > >What would you like to see on a hypothetical 10E? (ie; a later model at
    > >around the same price.)
    > >
    > >Here's my list:
    > >* Spot metering.

    >
    > Definitely - the lack of such is a pain in the backside when one can't find
    > something in the scene that is both suitable for metering from, and is large
    > enough to fill the partial meter circle. Are you listening, Canon? WE WANT
    > SPOT METERING!


    Don't hold your breath. The 10D is an Elan series camera. None of the Elan
    (or Rebel) series cameras have spot meters. You have to buy a EOS 3 series or
    an EOS 1 series if you really want spot metering.

    > >* Replacable focus screen. (I *like* having manual focus available, &
    > >going without it is a bit like losing a thumb.)

    >
    > ...and a focus screen with a microprism in it available as an option.


    Again, that's a 3 or 1 series feature. Canon provides the feature, it's just
    on the step up from what you're using.

    Ken
     
    Ken Alverson, Aug 21, 2003
    #5
  6. Lionel

    Guest

    In message <>,
    Godfrey DiGiorgi <> wrote:

    >Good list. I'll add
    >
    >* Lower Price, same quality


    Not available in the F828. You can't get the same quality from tiny
    sensor pixels.

    >and I'd like 8Mpixel, thank you. ;-)


    Available in the F828.
    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
     
    , Aug 22, 2003
    #6
  7. Lionel

    Christian Guest

    Chris Brown wrote:

    > In article <bi2dqg$j9t$>, Lionel <> wrote:
    >>What would you like to see on a hypothetical 10E? (ie; a later model at
    >>around the same price.)
    >>
    >>Here's my list:
    >>* Spot metering.

    >
    > Definitely - the lack of such is a pain in the backside when one can't
    > find something in the scene that is both suitable for metering from, and
    > is large enough to fill the partial meter circle. Are you listening,
    > Canon? WE WANT SPOT METERING!


    So use partial metering on the best available object, adjust exposure
    compensation, take the shot and check the histogram. If you've guessed
    poorly, take it again. Yes, it would be nice but is it THAT big a deal?
     
    Christian, Aug 22, 2003
    #7
  8. "Christian" <> wrote:
    > Chris Brown wrote:
    >
    > >>* Spot metering.

    > >
    > > Definitely - the lack of such is a pain in the backside when one can't
    > > find something in the scene that is both suitable for metering from, and
    > > is large enough to fill the partial meter circle. Are you listening,
    > > Canon? WE WANT SPOT METERING!


    Hopefully the twits at Canon will come out with a 3D that acts like an EOS
    3, so at least the well-heeled amongst us will have our spot metering.
    Everyone else can look at the Pentax *istD and Nikon D100.

    > So use partial metering on the best available object, adjust exposure
    > compensation, take the shot and check the histogram. If you've guessed
    > poorly, take it again. Yes, it would be nice but is it THAT big a deal?


    Yes, it is that big a deal. A tight spot meter gives you a real reading of
    what the exposure of an area in the image is actually going to be on the
    sensor. There's no averaging with anything extraneous. For example, it's
    great for portraits in crazed lighting situations (concerts, theater,
    events): just spot meter the face (with appropriate compensation for the
    subject) and let everything else falls where it does; you can't be fooled by
    backlighting, light sources in the image. Perfect exposure as fast as you
    can aim and AF. Other than spot and incident metering, everything else is
    just guessing. Of course, even guessing is good for reasonable exposure 95%
    of the time. But not having a spot meter, when every even half-way decent
    consumer digital does, is seriously irritating.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Aug 22, 2003
    #8
  9. Lionel

    Chris Brown Guest

    In article <bi485a$drb$>,
    Christian <> wrote:
    >Chris Brown wrote:
    >>
    >> Definitely - the lack of such is a pain in the backside when one can't
    >> find something in the scene that is both suitable for metering from, and
    >> is large enough to fill the partial meter circle. Are you listening,
    >> Canon? WE WANT SPOT METERING!

    >
    >So use partial metering on the best available object, adjust exposure
    >compensation, take the shot


    That's what I do, but in the situations where you end up with a wide-range
    of light intensity within the partial circle, it involves a measure of
    guesswork which a spot-meter wouldn't require.

    My camera is permenently left in partial-metering mode, BTW.

    >and check the histogram. If you've guessed poorly, take it again.


    That's the problem there. "Again" is alright for portraits and landscape
    photos, but for many photos, such as the one linked below, it is simply out
    of the question.

    http://www.narcissus.uklinux.net/Buzz.jpg

    >Yes, it would be nice but is it THAT big a deal?


    For me, it's the 10D's biggest shortcoming.

    --
    /* _ */main(int k,char**n){char*i=k&1?"+L*;99,RU[,RUo+BeKAA+BECACJ+CAACA"
    /* / ` */"CD+LBCACJ*":1[n],j,l=!k,m;do for(m=*i-48,j=l?m/k:m%k;m>>7?k=1<<m+
    /* | */8,!l&&puts(&l)**&l:j--;printf(" \0_/"+l));while((l^=3)||l[++i]);
    /* \_,hris Brown -- All opinions expressed are probably wrong. */return 0;}
     
    Chris Brown, Aug 22, 2003
    #9
  10. Lionel

    FOR7b Guest

    >>> Canon? WE WANT SPOT METERING!
    >>
    >>So use partial metering on the best available object, adjust exposure
    >>compensation, take the shot

    >
    >That's what I do, but in the situations where you end up with a wide-range
    >of light intensity within the partial circle, it involves a measure of
    >guesswork which a spot-meter wouldn't require.
    >
    >My camera is permenently left in partial-metering mode, BTW.


    With my Elan IIe, which also had a partial metering I simply filled the
    partial meter area with an area in or near the subject framing that I wanted to
    come out as mid grey. With the Elan IIe I used the custom function that
    separated AF from the shutter button and moved it to the rear AE lock button. I
    would lock my focus point first and then concentrated on finding that area of
    the picture that I wanted to render as mid grey. Ofcourse again the area you
    use to set exposure within the partial metering area doesn't have to be within
    the final framed area to give you a proper reading for whatever it is you are
    trying to achieve. Another good tip is if you are using a zoom is to just zoom
    into an area to get a better reading. A good example being say a night shot
    with small areas of lightness. Just zoom into that area and get your reading
    and recompose. I used the Elan IIe mainly on partial metering and grew to like
    it better in some ways than a tighter spot. At 9% of the center frame area it
    was not to big really and not to small. What I saw as a shortcoming in the
    camera proved to be of no concern after a little time and experience and
    beneficial to the way I took pics. I never used exposure compensation besides a
    static increase in exposure of say a half stop or more to get better results
    from the negative film I used.


    >My camera is permenently left in partial-metering mode, BTW.
    >
    >>and check the histogram. If you've guessed poorly, take it again.

    >
    >That's the problem there. "Again" is alright for portraits and landscape
    >photos, but for many photos, such as the one linked below, it is simply out
    >of the question.
    >
    >http://www.narcissus.uklinux.net/Buzz.jpg


    In that kind of a photo I would simply switch to centerweighted metering or
    whatever Canon is using as a matrix or evaluative type meter today. With my
    Elan IIe that was a problem and the only real drawback I saw to the camera's
    features. The evaluative metering in that camera compensated exposure based on
    your focusing point. Now with the newer evaluative matrix meters with many more
    segments than the Elan IIe I would guess less emphasis may be given to the
    focus point. Just a guess on my part as I haven't shot any newer Canon models
    since my older Elan IIe and A2. That was the case with the A2. The drawaback of
    such a metering system with the Elan IIe was the limited number of sements and
    the subsequent overcompensation the evaluative meter did. Also, a focus point
    is not necessarily what you want to be using as a bias in setting exposure.
    Anyway I therefore never used the evaluative metering in the Canon Elan IIe and
    used centerweighted for sugjects like the airplane in the sky link you've
    provided. Centerweighted is perfect for such a subject.

    On my very neglected photo site http://members.aol.com/for7/ most of the pics
    shown are taken in partial metering mode. Many are low light shots that many
    Elan IIe owners at the time would complain woul be a pain to take with such a
    meter. I Never had any problems. There was always something to meter off of.
    Much has to do with learning how your camera's metering system works and
    compensating for it.

    There are pics to page 3 on that site if you are interested. They are all
    travel related and mainly from Europe.




     
    FOR7b, Aug 22, 2003
    #10
  11. Lionel

    Chris Brown Guest

    In article <>,
    FOR7b <> wrote:
    >>>> Canon? WE WANT SPOT METERING!
    >>>
    >>>So use partial metering on the best available object, adjust exposure
    >>>compensation, take the shot

    >>
    >>That's what I do, but in the situations where you end up with a wide-range
    >>of light intensity within the partial circle, it involves a measure of
    >>guesswork which a spot-meter wouldn't require.
    >>
    >>My camera is permenently left in partial-metering mode, BTW.

    >
    >With my Elan IIe, which also had a partial metering I simply filled the
    >partial meter area with an area in or near the subject framing that I wanted to
    >come out as mid grey.


    That's basically what I do, but it's not always possible, and so you have to
    use your best judgement as to the amount of light and dark in the partial
    meter area. A good example of where I did this recently was when takign a
    photo of the Moon with a 300mm USM IS-L plus 1.4x teleconverter. Even with
    the 420mm focal length, and the 10D's smaller frame size, the Moon didn't
    fill the meter circle, and I had to guess. Turns out my first exposure was
    about a stop out, and I rexexposed to avoid the blown highlights. Now the
    Moon isn't going anywhere in a hurry, but not all subjects are helpful
    enough to stay still whilst being photographed, and there's a certain
    satisfaction to getting it right first time - handy habit to get into should
    one find oneself shooting film. :)

    >With the Elan IIe I used the custom function that
    >separated AF from the shutter button and moved it to the rear AE lock button. I
    >would lock my focus point first and then concentrated on finding that area of
    >the picture that I wanted to render as mid grey.


    That's pretty much what I do, but in reverse - still have focus assigned to
    the shutter button, so I expose, use AE-lock, focus, compose and shoot. Keep
    meaning to wean myself onto using the * button for focus.

    >Ofcourse again the area you
    >use to set exposure within the partial metering area doesn't have to be within
    >the final framed area to give you a proper reading for whatever it is you are
    >trying to achieve. Another good tip is if you are using a zoom is to just zoom
    >into an area to get a better reading.


    Indeed - that works nicely, but I have this bad habit of only carrying
    primes around. :) My camera bag is just the right size to take my 10D, 50mm
    f/1.4 USM, 100mm f/2.8 macro and Sigma 14mm f/2.8, as well as my flash in
    the front pocket, so that's normally what I walk around with. I do have a
    couple of zooms - the ubiqutous 28-135 IS (it *is* compulsory to own this
    lens with a Canon DSLR, right? ;-)) and the 100-300 USM, but I don't tend to
    use them a whole lot.


    >>http://www.narcissus.uklinux.net/Buzz.jpg

    >
    >In that kind of a photo I would simply switch to centerweighted metering or
    >whatever Canon is using as a matrix or evaluative type meter today. With my
    >Elan IIe that was a problem and the only real drawback I saw to the camera's
    >features. The evaluative metering in that camera compensated exposure based on
    >your focusing point. Now with the newer evaluative matrix meters with many more
    >segments than the Elan IIe I would guess less emphasis may be given to the
    >focus point. Just a guess on my part as I haven't shot any newer Canon models
    >since my older Elan IIe and A2.


    I don't really know - I don't use evaluative metering because I never know
    what it's trying to expose for, hence my preference for partial. With
    (print) film this wouldn't be so much of an issue, but Canon's CMOS sensor
    is much less tolerant of poor exposure.

    >That was the case with the A2. The drawaback of
    >such a metering system with the Elan IIe was the limited number of sements and
    >the subsequent overcompensation the evaluative meter did. Also, a focus point
    >is not necessarily what you want to be using as a bias in setting exposure.
    >Anyway I therefore never used the evaluative metering in the Canon Elan IIe and
    >used centerweighted for sugjects like the airplane in the sky link you've
    >provided. Centerweighted is perfect for such a subject.
    >
    >On my very neglected photo site http://members.aol.com/for7/ most of the pics
    >shown are taken in partial metering mode. Many are low light shots that many
    >Elan IIe owners at the time would complain woul be a pain to take with such a
    >meter. I Never had any problems. There was always something to meter off of.
    >Much has to do with learning how your camera's metering system works and
    >compensating for it.


    It sounds like our metering techniques are pretty similar, and the majority
    of the time, partial metering does the job nicely. It's just that
    occasionally I find myself exposing a shot that would have been much easier
    with a spot meter, and TBH, I'd be quite happy to pay more for a 10D-like
    that had one.

    >There are pics to page 3 on that site if you are interested. They are all
    >travel related and mainly from Europe.


    Some nice shots there.

    --
    /* _ */main(int k,char**n){char*i=k&1?"+L*;99,RU[,RUo+BeKAA+BECACJ+CAACA"
    /* / ` */"CD+LBCACJ*":1[n],j,l=!k,m;do for(m=*i-48,j=l?m/k:m%k;m>>7?k=1<<m+
    /* | */8,!l&&puts(&l)**&l:j--;printf(" \0_/"+l));while((l^=3)||l[++i]);
    /* \_,hris Brown -- All opinions expressed are probably wrong. */return 0;}
     
    Chris Brown, Aug 22, 2003
    #11
  12. Lionel

    Ed E. Guest

    >WE WANT SPOT METERING!

    Amen. Add lightening-fast Servo AF to that list. Oh, and they might as
    well make it less expensive without sacrificing anything while they're at
    it. ;-)
     
    Ed E., Aug 22, 2003
    #12
  13. Lionel

    Godfrey Guest

    You misunderstand. This thread was not about the F828, it was about the 10D.
    I'd like the successor to the 10D to be less expensive but retain the same
    quality of manufacture.

    Godfrey

    On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:00:28 -0700, wrote
    (in message <>):

    > In message <>,
    > Godfrey DiGiorgi <> wrote:
    >
    >> Good list. I'll add
    >>
    >> * Lower Price, same quality

    >
    > Not available in the F828. You can't get the same quality from tiny
    > sensor pixels.
    >
    >> and I'd like 8Mpixel, thank you. ;-)

    >
    > Available in the F828.
    >
     
    Godfrey, Aug 23, 2003
    #13
  14. In article <>,
    Godfrey <> wrote:

    > You misunderstand. This thread was not about the F828, it was about the 10D.
    > I'd like the successor to the 10D to be less expensive but retain the same
    > quality of manufacture.
    > Godfrey


    Wait two years and you"ll get the 1Ds for the same price as the 10D
    when that happens I am in.

    --
    "ANFAWFOS"
    Check out my website @
    http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank
     
    Gregory W. Blank, Aug 23, 2003
    #14
  15. Lionel

    JK Guest

    Who will want a 1DS in two years, when we might have 24 megapixel
    digital cameras with full sized sensors for around $1000? It will be
    interesting when lower end digital slrs get under $500. Will that be
    within two years?

    "Gregory W. Blank" wrote:

    > In article <>,
    > Godfrey <> wrote:
    >
    > > You misunderstand. This thread was not about the F828, it was about the 10D.
    > > I'd like the successor to the 10D to be less expensive but retain the same
    > > quality of manufacture.
    > > Godfrey

    >
    > Wait two years and you"ll get the 1Ds for the same price as the 10D
    > when that happens I am in.
    >
    > --
    > "ANFAWFOS"
    > Check out my website @
    > http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank
     
    JK, Aug 23, 2003
    #15
  16. In article <>, JK <>
    wrote:

    > Who will want a 1DS in two years, when we might have 24 megapixel
    > digital cameras with full sized sensors for around $1000? It will be
    > interesting when lower end digital slrs get under $500. Will that be
    > within two years?
    >


    No one my point is major change will probably be just
    down the road, the 10D is attracting lots of prosumer traffic.

    I however am holding out for a 45mp camera that will shoot at least
    4-5 frames per second and have both relaiistic skin tones and
    a sleep mode to conserve battery function all for around 3K.

    I don't know if at the bottom end $500 24mp is realistic in 2 years
    it hard to say. 45mp is my buy in range because I can generate a
    good 16x20 from that and be able to shoot wedding work with that in mind,
    right now my current 120 system was about 3k, so I have that as my standard
    for that type of work, I won't repalce it until there is a reasonable and viable
    alternative.

    --
    "ANFAWFOS"
    Check out my website @
    http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank
     
    Gregory W. Blank, Aug 23, 2003
    #16
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