Wireless outdoors

Discussion in 'Wireless Networking' started by JohnB, Jan 20, 2009.

  1. JohnB

    JohnB Guest

    This isn't really a Windows question...

    I need to install wireless outdoors in an area approximately 750' x 350'.
    My concern is covering an area that large.
    Does anyone here have any experience with installing wireless for an outdoor
    location?

    I'm looking for things to watch out for.
    Would I need some type of repeater to cover that kind of distance, either
    wired or wireless?

    I found this outdoor WAP.
    http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...&cm_mmc_o=TBBTkwCjCVyBpAgf mwzygtCjCVRqCjCVRq

    All input is appreciated.
     
    JohnB, Jan 20, 2009
    #1
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  2. JohnB

    Lem Guest

    JohnB wrote:
    > This isn't really a Windows question...
    >
    > I need to install wireless outdoors in an area approximately 750' x 350'.
    > My concern is covering an area that large.
    > Does anyone here have any experience with installing wireless for an outdoor
    > location?
    >
    > I'm looking for things to watch out for.
    > Would I need some type of repeater to cover that kind of distance, either
    > wired or wireless?
    >
    > I found this outdoor WAP.
    > http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...&cm_mmc_o=TBBTkwCjCVyBpAgf mwzygtCjCVRqCjCVRq
    >
    > All input is appreciated.
    >


    Coverage will depend, in large part, on what's in the 750 x 350 area. An
    open field? Lots of trees? Lots of metallic RVs? The antenna(s)
    connected to your WAP(s) will also play a significant role.

    I don't know anything about the specific unit you mention, but note that
    it comes with a 10dB *directional* antenna. This may or may not work
    for your application.
    https://www.engeniustech.com/resources/EOC-2610 Antenna Pattern.pdf

    It does have some nice features, in addition to the high power and
    increased receiver sensitivity, including a connector for an external
    antenna and power-over-Ethernet (POE) capability.

    Usual advice (for DIY) is to install something like Netstumbler on a
    laptop. Buy and install 1 WAP. Wander (systematically) around the area
    checking signal strength and install further WAPs as needed.


    Much more discussion of this topic at alt.internet.wireless

    --
    Lem -- MS-MVP

    To the moon and back with 2K words of RAM and 36K words of ROM.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer
    http://history.nasa.gov/afj/compessay.htm
     
    Lem, Jan 20, 2009
    #2
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  3. We use Cisco 1300 AP which is bridge and repeater wireless Access Point.
    These search results may help.

    a.. Cisco Wireless Designs
    (main)Cisco Wireless Designs. 1. Point-to-Point configuration is a
    non-root bridge associates to a root bridge, which connects to two
    locations. ...
    www.howtocisco.com/cisco/wireless/wirelessdesigns.htm - Similar pages

    a.. Web Cisco online marketing How to Configure Cisco Wireless Cisco ...
    Cisco Wireless Designs · Considerations of Cisco Aironet · How to
    Assign an IP Address to Cisco Wireless Bridge Using the CLI ...
    www.howtocisco.com/cisco/wirelesshowto.htm


    --
    Bob Lin, MS-MVP, MCSE & CNE
    Networking, Internet, Routing, VPN Troubleshooting on
    http://www.ChicagoTech.net
    How to Setup Windows, Network, VPN & Remote Access on
    http://www.HowToNetworking.com
    "JohnB" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > This isn't really a Windows question...
    >
    > I need to install wireless outdoors in an area approximately 750' x 350'.
    > My concern is covering an area that large.
    > Does anyone here have any experience with installing wireless for an
    > outdoor
    > location?
    >
    > I'm looking for things to watch out for.
    > Would I need some type of repeater to cover that kind of distance, either
    > wired or wireless?
    >
    > I found this outdoor WAP.
    > http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...&cm_mmc_o=TBBTkwCjCVyBpAgf mwzygtCjCVRqCjCVRq
    >
    > All input is appreciated.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
    Robert L. \(MS-MVP\), Jan 20, 2009
    #3
  4. Hi
    The general approach that I take for Coverage issues is the following.
    The best way is to lay few CAT6 cables to central locations in the house,
    install Access Points, or Cable/DSL Routers configured as an Access Points
    ( Using a Wireless Cable/DSL Router as a Switch with an Access Point ), and
    connect them to the Main Router.
    You do not want/can not/hate/your client hate to lay Cables.
    You start with One affordable Router that can Do WDS (the reason for the WDS
    support is in case you need to add more Wireless hardware).
    If you are lucky and your environment is conducive to get covered with one
    Wireless Router you are done.
    Routers that can do WDS as is are old by (Zyxel, SMC, Belkin, and some
    others have models that do WDS as is out of the Box (
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Distribution_System ).
    Linksys WRT54GL, and Asus, 520GU can do WDS when flashed with DD-WRT
    firmware ( http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page ).
    Using a Laptop loaded with Netstumbler, do a Wireless survey,
    http://www.netstumbler.com/downloads/
    According to the Netstumbler's signal strength reading, identify spots that
    have strong signal. and spot with weak, or No signal.
    Evaluate how you can cover the space and start placing WDS units.
    Additional Wireless Routers in WDS Mode (Wireless Network - Configuration
    Modes. ) has to be placed in spots were the signal is good about Half way to
    the dead spots.
    How many WDS units are needed? It depends on your specific environment (that
    is a good the reason to buying WDS units one at the time, try it, and decide
    on the Next step).
    Jack (MS, MVP-Networking)

    "JohnB" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > This isn't really a Windows question...
    >
    > I need to install wireless outdoors in an area approximately 750' x 350'.
    > My concern is covering an area that large.
    > Does anyone here have any experience with installing wireless for an
    > outdoor
    > location?
    >
    > I'm looking for things to watch out for.
    > Would I need some type of repeater to cover that kind of distance, either
    > wired or wireless?
    >
    > I found this outdoor WAP.
    > http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...&cm_mmc_o=TBBTkwCjCVyBpAgf mwzygtCjCVRqCjCVRq
    >
    > All input is appreciated.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
    Jack \(MVP-Networking\)., Jan 20, 2009
    #4
  5. JohnB

    JohnB Guest

    This is an aerial view of the area I need to cover:
    http://www.brigan.com/images/map.jpg

    You are right. Lots of metallic RVs. It's an RV campground.
    Very few trees.

    I went to alt.internet.wireless and did some reading. I think I'm going to
    post something on there.
    Thanks


    "Lem" <lemp40@unknownhost> wrote in message
    news:...
    > JohnB wrote:
    >> This isn't really a Windows question...
    >>
    >> I need to install wireless outdoors in an area approximately 750' x 350'.
    >> My concern is covering an area that large.
    >> Does anyone here have any experience with installing wireless for an
    >> outdoor
    >> location?
    >>
    >> I'm looking for things to watch out for.
    >> Would I need some type of repeater to cover that kind of distance, either
    >> wired or wireless?
    >>
    >> I found this outdoor WAP.
    >> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...&cm_mmc_o=TBBTkwCjCVyBpAgf mwzygtCjCVRqCjCVRq
    >>
    >> All input is appreciated.
    >>

    >
    > Coverage will depend, in large part, on what's in the 750 x 350 area. An
    > open field? Lots of trees? Lots of metallic RVs? The antenna(s) connected
    > to your WAP(s) will also play a significant role.
    >
    > I don't know anything about the specific unit you mention, but note that
    > it comes with a 10dB *directional* antenna. This may or may not work for
    > your application.
    > https://www.engeniustech.com/resources/EOC-2610 Antenna Pattern.pdf
    >
    > It does have some nice features, in addition to the high power and
    > increased receiver sensitivity, including a connector for an external
    > antenna and power-over-Ethernet (POE) capability.
    >
    > Usual advice (for DIY) is to install something like Netstumbler on a
    > laptop. Buy and install 1 WAP. Wander (systematically) around the area
    > checking signal strength and install further WAPs as needed.
    >
    >
    > Much more discussion of this topic at alt.internet.wireless
    >
    > --
    > Lem -- MS-MVP
    >
    > To the moon and back with 2K words of RAM and 36K words of ROM.
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer
    > http://history.nasa.gov/afj/compessay.htm
     
    JohnB, Jan 20, 2009
    #5
  6. Hi
    If you do not want to install a multi Access Points (as I mentioned early)
    you can try the following.
    Install on the club house an Antenna mast that is tall enough to be above
    the RVs.
    Install the High Power POE Access Point on top of the mast in a weather
    protect box.
    Connect to the Access point a 180 degrees directional Antenna facing the RV
    park and connect the Access Point with out door Cat6 to your server.
    YMMV, good luck.
    Jack (MS, MVP-Networking)

    "JohnB" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > This is an aerial view of the area I need to cover:
    > http://www.brigan.com/images/map.jpg
    >
    > You are right. Lots of metallic RVs. It's an RV campground.
    > Very few trees.
    >
    > I went to alt.internet.wireless and did some reading. I think I'm going
    > to post something on there.
    > Thanks
    >
    >
    > "Lem" <lemp40@unknownhost> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> JohnB wrote:
    >>> This isn't really a Windows question...
    >>>
    >>> I need to install wireless outdoors in an area approximately 750' x
    >>> 350'.
    >>> My concern is covering an area that large.
    >>> Does anyone here have any experience with installing wireless for an
    >>> outdoor
    >>> location?
    >>>
    >>> I'm looking for things to watch out for.
    >>> Would I need some type of repeater to cover that kind of distance,
    >>> either
    >>> wired or wireless?
    >>>
    >>> I found this outdoor WAP.
    >>> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...&cm_mmc_o=TBBTkwCjCVyBpAgf mwzygtCjCVRqCjCVRq
    >>>
    >>> All input is appreciated.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Coverage will depend, in large part, on what's in the 750 x 350 area. An
    >> open field? Lots of trees? Lots of metallic RVs? The antenna(s) connected
    >> to your WAP(s) will also play a significant role.
    >>
    >> I don't know anything about the specific unit you mention, but note that
    >> it comes with a 10dB *directional* antenna. This may or may not work for
    >> your application.
    >> https://www.engeniustech.com/resources/EOC-2610 Antenna Pattern.pdf
    >>
    >> It does have some nice features, in addition to the high power and
    >> increased receiver sensitivity, including a connector for an external
    >> antenna and power-over-Ethernet (POE) capability.
    >>
    >> Usual advice (for DIY) is to install something like Netstumbler on a
    >> laptop. Buy and install 1 WAP. Wander (systematically) around the area
    >> checking signal strength and install further WAPs as needed.
    >>
    >>
    >> Much more discussion of this topic at alt.internet.wireless
    >>
    >> --
    >> Lem -- MS-MVP
    >>
    >> To the moon and back with 2K words of RAM and 36K words of ROM.
    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer
    >> http://history.nasa.gov/afj/compessay.htm

    >
    >
     
    Jack \(MS, MVP-Networking\), Jan 21, 2009
    #6
  7. JohnB

    JohnB Guest

    I think we're going to go the route you describe below. I met with the
    campground owner today, and found out they had wireless in there before.
    And, they had it removed because of problems with lightning damage to the
    equipment. This is Florida... and FL is considered the "lighting capital of
    the world". And after working in IT in this state for the past 10 years,
    I've seen plenty of damage to network equipment caused by lighting. So I
    can understand his concern. So I've got to do some research on addressing
    that before they will go forward with this.

    If you, or anyone else, has any experience with lightning suppression for
    outdoor wireless, I'd appreciate hearing about what you did.

    Thanks.


    "Jack (MS, MVP-Networking)" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hi
    > If you do not want to install a multi Access Points (as I mentioned
    > early) you can try the following.
    > Install on the club house an Antenna mast that is tall enough to be above
    > the RVs.
    > Install the High Power POE Access Point on top of the mast in a weather
    > protect box.
    > Connect to the Access point a 180 degrees directional Antenna facing the
    > RV park and connect the Access Point with out door Cat6 to your server.
    > YMMV, good luck.
    > Jack (MS, MVP-Networking)
    >
    > "JohnB" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> This is an aerial view of the area I need to cover:
    >> http://www.brigan.com/images/map.jpg
    >>
    >> You are right. Lots of metallic RVs. It's an RV campground.
    >> Very few trees.
    >>
    >> I went to alt.internet.wireless and did some reading. I think I'm going
    >> to post something on there.
    >> Thanks
    >>
    >>
    >> "Lem" <lemp40@unknownhost> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> JohnB wrote:
    >>>> This isn't really a Windows question...
    >>>>
    >>>> I need to install wireless outdoors in an area approximately 750' x
    >>>> 350'.
    >>>> My concern is covering an area that large.
    >>>> Does anyone here have any experience with installing wireless for an
    >>>> outdoor
    >>>> location?
    >>>>
    >>>> I'm looking for things to watch out for.
    >>>> Would I need some type of repeater to cover that kind of distance,
    >>>> either
    >>>> wired or wireless?
    >>>>
    >>>> I found this outdoor WAP.
    >>>> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...&cm_mmc_o=TBBTkwCjCVyBpAgf mwzygtCjCVRqCjCVRq
    >>>>
    >>>> All input is appreciated.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Coverage will depend, in large part, on what's in the 750 x 350 area. An
    >>> open field? Lots of trees? Lots of metallic RVs? The antenna(s)
    >>> connected to your WAP(s) will also play a significant role.
    >>>
    >>> I don't know anything about the specific unit you mention, but note that
    >>> it comes with a 10dB *directional* antenna. This may or may not work
    >>> for your application.
    >>> https://www.engeniustech.com/resources/EOC-2610 Antenna Pattern.pdf
    >>>
    >>> It does have some nice features, in addition to the high power and
    >>> increased receiver sensitivity, including a connector for an external
    >>> antenna and power-over-Ethernet (POE) capability.
    >>>
    >>> Usual advice (for DIY) is to install something like Netstumbler on a
    >>> laptop. Buy and install 1 WAP. Wander (systematically) around the area
    >>> checking signal strength and install further WAPs as needed.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Much more discussion of this topic at alt.internet.wireless
    >>>
    >>> --
    >>> Lem -- MS-MVP
    >>>
    >>> To the moon and back with 2K words of RAM and 36K words of ROM.
    >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer
    >>> http://history.nasa.gov/afj/compessay.htm

    >>
    >>

    >
     
    JohnB, Jan 21, 2009
    #7
  8. JohnB

    Lem Guest

    JohnB wrote:
    > I think we're going to go the route you describe below. I met with the
    > campground owner today, and found out they had wireless in there before.
    > And, they had it removed because of problems with lightning damage to the
    > equipment. This is Florida... and FL is considered the "lighting capital of
    > the world". And after working in IT in this state for the past 10 years,
    > I've seen plenty of damage to network equipment caused by lighting. So I
    > can understand his concern. So I've got to do some research on addressing
    > that before they will go forward with this.
    >
    > If you, or anyone else, has any experience with lightning suppression for
    > outdoor wireless, I'd appreciate hearing about what you did.
    >
    >

    You could do worse than starting here:
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=amateur radio lightning&btnG=Google Search&aq=f&oq=

    --
    Lem -- MS-MVP

    To the moon and back with 2K words of RAM and 36K words of ROM.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer
    http://history.nasa.gov/afj/compessay.htm
     
    Lem, Jan 21, 2009
    #8
  9. JohnB

    Guest

    On Jan 21, 1:53 pm, "JohnB" <> wrote:
    > I think we're going to go the route you describe below.   I met with the
    > campground owner today, and found out they had wireless in there before.
    > And, they had it removed because of problems withlightningdamageto the
    > equipment.  This is Florida... and FL is considered the "lighting capital of
    > the world".  And after working in IT in this state for the past 10 years,


    Lightning protection is about earthing. Many foolishly confuse
    protection with magic boxes called protectors. The effective
    protector is only as good as its earthing. That is the principle.

    Lightning is electricity. To damage something, lightning must have
    both an incoming and outgoing path. That outgoing path is always
    earth ground. Protection means diverting lightning to earth ground so
    that lightning does not pass through electronics. Such protection
    from direct lightning strikes is routine everywhere ... when the human
    learns the simple principles even demonstrated by Franklin in 1752.

    For example, so that lightning does not pass through the AP antenna,
    one installs and earths a Franklin lightning rod above. Lightning
    that obtains earth via the earthed lightning rod does not travel
    through the AP radio antenna.

    The principles are simple. Every wire entering or leaving a
    structure must first connect to the same earth ground. Connect either
    directly without a protector (ie coax cable) or connect to earth
    through a protector. That connection must be as short as possible (ie
    'less than 10 feet').

    An industry professional application note demonstrates the concept.
    In this case, both the building and antenna are treated as separate
    structures. Each structure has it own single point earth ground. A
    wire (even underground wires) must connect to that single point ground
    before entering the structure:
    TN CR 002 The Need for Coordinated Protection
    http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf

    Orange county also suffered lightning damage. So they fixed the
    only reason for damage. They upgraded earthing to have direct
    lightning strikes without damage:
    http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm

    A FL engineer describes how protection is routine in:
    http://www.harvardrepeater.org/news/lightning.html (Gary Coffman)
    > Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning
    > 30 years, that you can design a system that will handle *direct
    > lightning strikes* on a routine basis. It takes some planning and
    > careful layout, but it's not hard, nor is it overly expensive. At
    > WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct lightning strikes nearly every
    > time there's a thunderstorm. Our downtime from such strikes is
    > almost non-existant. The last time we went down from a strike, it was
    > due to a strike on the power company's lines knocking *them* out, ...
    > Since my disasterous strike, I've been campaigning vigorously to
    > educate amateurs that you *can* avoid damage from direct strikes.
    > The belief that there's no protection from direct strike damage is
    > *myth*. ...
    > The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly simple,
    > and surprisingly less than obvious. Of course you *must* have a
    > single point ground system that eliminates all ground loops. And you
    > must present a low *impedance* path for the energy to go. That's
    > most generally a low *inductance* path rather than just a low ohm
    > DC path.


    Protection from lightning damage is so routine and so well proven
    that lightning damage is considered a human failure. Above are
    numerous examples from FL. In every case, protection is about
    dissipating lightning energy harmlessly in earth. Any solution that
    does not earth lightning means damage is possible.

    Every AP is treated as a separate structure - as demonstrated by the
    first app note. Even putting wires underground is not sufficient as
    that app note demonstrates. Every incoming wire in every cable must
    have that common connection to earth. Why does your telco not
    disconnect their computers during every thunderstorm? Why is their
    computer not down for four days due to lightning damage? Every FL
    telco connected to overhead wires all over town does what is described
    above. Protection is about diverting direct lightning strikes
    harmlessly in earth. Damage because that electricity found a path
    incoming and another path outgoing through electronics.
     
    , Jan 22, 2009
    #9
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