Wireless Net to Revive Datacasting? MULTICAST!

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by David Mohring, Dec 16, 2003.

  1. Wireless Net to Revive Datacasting?
    http://www.aardvark.co.nz/daily/2003/1216.shtml

    http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Multicast Mohring

    IHUG promised multicast news and email services since the start of
    offering satnet services ( almost every second month IHUG promised
    24/7 email offline service NEXT month ) but only made its development
    a priority after November 1999. The residential/commercial Ultra
    multicast email/Usenet service died a quick death. In my opinion
    mostly this was because of the lack of promotion and support for the
    service. IHUG sold a multicast usenet feed to smaller local ISPs, but
    I do not know if IHUG is still providing that service.

    It is possible to Multicast a range of existing internet services,
    as was suggest by my humble self back in august 1999...

    http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=

    Distributed content delivery service providers such as Akamai
    ( http://www.akamai.com/ ) already provide mirroring services that are
    hosted by many of the major New Zealand ISPs, including IHUG. It would
    be possible, using the above method, to push similar content out via
    Multicast to the users locally hosted caches.
    The content could be classified into virtual channels which could be
    selectable by the user. Imagine being able to the get the latest High
    resolution Film-Trailers, Game Releases, ISOs on your computer within
    seconds of the content being released by the providers.

    With the wider availablity of narrow and broadband perminent connect
    ASDL/Cable servers and the new two way wireless services there is little
    need for Multicast/Unicast email/Usenet/web access services. Multicast
    would still be invaluable for distributing mirrors of commonly requested
    large files and ISOs etc, but the current charging model adopted by New
    Zealand ISPs provides no incentive. See High Speed Flat Rate Heresies

    http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=

    Peer2Peer services could be augmented by Peer2Broadcast2Peers services,
    monitored to promote the distribution of legitmate legally distributable
    content. This kind of service would provide new channels of distribution
    for local musicians and artists. Live virtual camera feeds from online
    multiplayer games could entice potental customers and promote online
    gaming tournaments as "virtual" sport with thousands of real viewers.
    In both cases, embedded advertising would easily pay for providing the
    service.

    That such services are not available or in major development today is a
    testament to the short sited greed of the ISPs who would rather charge
    by the byte or width of pipe.

    David Mohring - Back again
    David Mohring, Dec 16, 2003
    #1
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  2. In article <>,
    says...

    >
    > That such services are not available or in major development today is a
    > testament to the short sited greed of the ISPs who would rather charge
    > by the byte or width of pipe.


    I was one of the people very keen on taking up such an offering. Offline
    newsbrowsing, with an active feed ...... I'd've thought that it would
    entail considerable savings on resources on ihug's end, by way of news-
    reading people not tying up modem lines.

    Alas when they finally managed to put together software that worked and
    I got version xxx of the software to go, the newsfeed didn't deliver.
    Further enquiries revealed that a newsgroup multicast was only being
    offered on the tower based ihug sites; the reason given was that
    multicasting news from the satellite would be waaaay too expensive
    because of the data volume.

    Shortly after they announced that they were discontinuing all efforts in
    this direction alltigether. <sigh><why?>

    -Peter
    Peter Huebner, Dec 16, 2003
    #2
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  3. On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 01:01:07 +1300, Peter Huebner wrote:

    > I was one of the people very keen on taking up such an offering. Offline
    > newsbrowsing, with an active feed ...... I'd've thought that it would
    > entail considerable savings on resources on ihug's end, by way of news-
    > reading people not tying up modem lines.


    The satellite companies which started doing this in the USA all stopped -
    news volume was so high they couldn't keep up and then the liabilities
    started piling up.

    If Ihug was to offer a full streaming newsfeed on Ultra, there would be
    _no_ b/w available for anything else.
    Uncle StoatWarbler, Dec 16, 2003
    #3
  4. On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:49:40 +0100, Uncle StoatWarbler wrote:

    > On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 01:01:07 +1300, Peter Huebner wrote:
    >
    >> I was one of the people very keen on taking up such an offering. Offline
    >> newsbrowsing, with an active feed ...... I'd've thought that it would
    >> entail considerable savings on resources on ihug's end, by way of news-
    >> reading people not tying up modem lines.

    >
    > The satellite companies which started doing this in the USA all stopped -
    > news volume was so high they couldn't keep up


    The solution for limited bandwith satellite and terrestrial services would
    be to just manage the service better. The first thing you could to is
    deliver only those newsgroups directly requested by customers, the second
    would be to only multicast the larger posts and binary-encoded-attached
    individual postings on a demand basis.

    http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=
    +2) yournewsreader( news=localhost:119) -> localhost-NNTP-proxy-client
    + localhost-proxy-client :
    + look up group/header/article in local cache
    + found: send to yournewsreader
    + notfound: connect to internet and get it
    + either requesting it via IHUGs satnet MBONE
    + or directly from news.*.ihug.co.nz


    > and then the liabilities
    > started piling up.


    Since the copyright infringing material is almost always attached/encoded,
    broadcasting the content on a demand basis puts the ISP in the same
    legal position than just hosting a normal NNTP server. As with ISP hosted
    transparent web proxies, the ISP is acting entirely as common carrier of
    the content. Just like the postal service and telephone service providers,
    ISPs cannot be held responsible for the content distributed though it's
    service.

    http://www.radiation.com/ideas/liability/
    +This holding supported those who argued that a BBS operator is like a
    +"common carrier" and should be free from liability when they only provide
    +a medium in which others can operate - as a bus company only transports
    +its passengers. The provider, therefore, cannot be responsible for the
    +content of each "passenger's" baggage under such a theory. Prodigy
    +violated this safe harbor by actively monitoring its sites. This ruling
    +resulted in providers adopting a hands-off attitude regarding the content
    +on their sites and monitoring this material.

    Note that in my post I mentioned that the Peer2Broadcast2Peers would be
    "monitored to promote the distribution of legitmate legally distributable
    content."
    http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=

    The solution to the Prodigy paradox for copyright infringment is to farm
    out the monitoring service to an independent third party, preferably an
    independent body representing the existing recording and media industry.
    If the NZ version of the RIAA and Hollywood media want to stop piracy,
    let them be part of the solution and carry the can. If they try to block
    legitmately distributable content then the provider can jump all
    over the blocking agency in the public arena and in court.

    >
    > If Ihug was to offer a full streaming newsfeed on Ultra, there would be
    > _no_ b/w available for anything else.


    It is easy enough to manage and throttle the bandwidth taken up any such
    multicast service. Just put the content to be broadcasted in a
    prioritized queue and broadcast when unused/spare bandwidth is available.

    David Mohring - I've been though this before.
    David Mohring, Dec 16, 2003
    #4
  5. David Mohring

    Mainlander Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:49:40 +0100, Uncle StoatWarbler wrote:
    >
    > > On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 01:01:07 +1300, Peter Huebner wrote:
    > >
    > >> I was one of the people very keen on taking up such an offering. Offline
    > >> newsbrowsing, with an active feed ...... I'd've thought that it would
    > >> entail considerable savings on resources on ihug's end, by way of news-
    > >> reading people not tying up modem lines.

    > >
    > > The satellite companies which started doing this in the USA all stopped -
    > > news volume was so high they couldn't keep up

    >
    > The solution for limited bandwith satellite and terrestrial services would
    > be to just manage the service better. The first thing you could to is
    > deliver only those newsgroups directly requested by customers, the second
    > would be to only multicast the larger posts and binary-encoded-attached
    > individual postings on a demand basis.


    Wow, this is what they already do in most cases

    > >
    > > If Ihug was to offer a full streaming newsfeed on Ultra, there would be
    > > _no_ b/w available for anything else.

    >
    > It is easy enough to manage and throttle the bandwidth taken up any such
    > multicast service. Just put the content to be broadcasted in a
    > prioritized queue and broadcast when unused/spare bandwidth is available.


    Well then it's not full streaming is it. It'll stop and start randomly.

    --
    Full featured open source Win32 newsreader - Gravity 2.70
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/mpgravity/
    Mainlander, Dec 16, 2003
    #5
  6. David Mohring

    Mainlander Guest

    In article <>,
    says...

    > That such services are not available or in major development today is a
    > testament to the short sited greed of the ISPs who would rather charge
    > by the byte or width of pipe.


    Strange this, this being the way they are charged either by their service
    provider (telecom) or from overseas

    --
    Full featured open source Win32 newsreader - Gravity 2.70
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/mpgravity/
    Mainlander, Dec 16, 2003
    #6
  7. David Mohring

    madknoxie Guest

    In article <>,
    David Mohring <> wrote:

    > Wireless Net to Revive Datacasting?
    > http://www.aardvark.co.nz/daily/2003/1216.shtml


    What I don't understand about datacasting is essentially how it works at
    a very basic/low level. When I request something over the internet and
    one of the packets gets lost along the way, I just request that packet
    again to make up the full file.

    With datacasting, because all traffic is one-way, what happens if the
    equivalent of a 'packet' gets lost or corrupted on the way? What then?

    --
    madknoxie
    $35 .nz domain names: http://www.ivision.co.nz/
    madknoxie, Dec 16, 2003
    #7
  8. On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:58:04 +1300, madknoxie wrote:

    > In article <>,
    > David Mohring <> wrote:
    >
    >> Wireless Net to Revive Datacasting?
    >> http://www.aardvark.co.nz/daily/2003/1216.shtml

    >
    > What I don't understand about datacasting is essentially how it works at
    > a very basic/low level. When I request something over the internet and
    > one of the packets gets lost along the way, I just request that packet
    > again to make up the full file.
    >
    > With datacasting, because all traffic is one-way, what happens if the
    > equivalent of a 'packet' gets lost or corrupted on the way? What then?


    Using a model similar to the one I suggested or that was adopted by
    IHUG's Ultra service...
    http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=
    +The best solution would involve proxy servers for each service
    +on the users satnet connected computer.News, Email, Web,
    +and ( yippee ) ftp/Archive Syncronize. A client
    +program would run 24hrs/7days caching/mirroring
    +preselected items. A small web based interface
    +(http://localhost:8081/) would control the proxy.
    +The server would checksum each chunk/2k of item and
    +the proxy would re-request any failed chunks.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    With today's PSs greater processor,memory and hardrive capacity,
    larger LTUs ( Logical Tranlation Units ) size chunks could easily
    be in the 100 KiB( Kilobyte ) range.

    Remember that a failed broadcasted chunk would likely only have to
    be broadcasted again once or twice.

    It is also possible to introduce redundancy into the broadcasted
    stream by using forward error correction.
    ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc3452.txt

    David Mohring - Does no one read the links?
    David Mohring, Dec 16, 2003
    #8
  9. On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:58:04 +1300, madknoxie
    <> wrote:

    >In article <>,
    > David Mohring <> wrote:
    >
    >> Wireless Net to Revive Datacasting?
    >> http://www.aardvark.co.nz/daily/2003/1216.shtml

    >
    >What I don't understand about datacasting is essentially how it works at
    >a very basic/low level. When I request something over the internet and
    >one of the packets gets lost along the way, I just request that packet
    >again to make up the full file.
    >
    >With datacasting, because all traffic is one-way, what happens if the
    >equivalent of a 'packet' gets lost or corrupted on the way? What then?


    This is handled either by error-correction data that is sent along
    with the data -- that allows small errors to be automatically
    corrected and lost data to be reconstructed from the correction
    packets.

    Although Teletex uses a parity bit to detect errors, it doesn't
    correct them like a more modern system might.

    A lower-tech way is simply to repeat the datacast at regular intervals
    (which is what Teletex does).


    --
    you can contact me via http://aardvark.co.nz/contact/
    Bruce Simpson, Dec 16, 2003
    #9
  10. On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 10:44:18 +1300, Mainlander wrote:

    > In article <>,
    > says...
    >
    >> That such services are not available or in major development today is a
    >> testament to the short sited greed of the ISPs who would rather charge
    >> by the byte or width of pipe.

    >
    > Strange this, this being the way they are charged either by their service
    > provider (telecom) or from overseas


    Does your local petrol station force you to accept crude oil? Does your
    local supermarket force you buy all your groceries in bulk?

    Downstream providers in all industries reprocess,unbundle and repackage
    good and services to provide a more effective service for the
    downstream consumer.

    As I pointed out in my article
    http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=
    +Distributed content delivery service providers such as Akamai
    +( http://www.akamai.com/ ) already provide mirroring services that are
    +hosted by many of the major New Zealand ISPs, including IHUG. It would
    +be possible, using the above method, to push similar content out via
    +Multicast to the users locally hosted caches.

    All ISPs in NZ also make use of transparent web proxies, to reduce
    external network bandwidth by up to 25%, it is very cost effective
    for the ISPs to do so.

    There was a time in NZ when local ISPs believed that providing uncapped
    dial up access was also an impossibility, dispite that most other
    countries alread provided uncapped accounts by default, now all NZ ISPs
    provide some form of uncapped dial up access.

    Analysts says NZ should have half a million broadband users by now
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z256224D6
    +Australia is also lagging behind in the broadband stakes, says Budde,
    +but has recently begun to catch up.
    +
    +"We have uncapped DSL now and we have between 500,000 and 600,000
    + broadband users."
    +
    +Budde says three factors make up broadband's appeal to users.
    +
    +"They are affordability, unlimited traffic and speed. Traffic caps simply
    +do not work. The ITU [International Telecommunications Union] holds up
    +Australia and New Zealand as examples of how not to introduce broadband."

    As a country we cannot afford to fall this far behind in providing
    increasingly vital infrastructure. NZs remote geographic location and
    relatively limited population adds constraints which could be better
    overcome by a more non-lateral approach. Geting customers to better
    use the overseas bandwidth and choosing locally generated content could
    benefit both the local ISPs and the local content providers. Multicast
    services could play a big part in providing that solution.

    David Mohring - Self interest.
    David Mohring, Dec 17, 2003
    #10
  11. On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 10:44:16 +1300, Mainlander wrote:

    > In article <>,
    > says...
    >> On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:49:40 +0100, Uncle StoatWarbler wrote:
    >>
    >> > On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 01:01:07 +1300, Peter Huebner wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> I was one of the people very keen on taking up such an offering. Offline
    >> >> newsbrowsing, with an active feed ...... I'd've thought that it would
    >> >> entail considerable savings on resources on ihug's end, by way of news-
    >> >> reading people not tying up modem lines.
    >> >
    >> > The satellite companies which started doing this in the USA all stopped -
    >> > news volume was so high they couldn't keep up

    >>
    >> The solution for limited bandwith satellite and terrestrial services would
    >> be to just manage the service better. The first thing you could to is
    >> deliver only those newsgroups directly requested by customers, the second
    >> would be to only multicast the larger posts and binary-encoded-attached
    >> individual postings on a demand basis.

    >
    > Wow, this is what they already do in most cases


    While I know most ISPs who cull the the number of Usenet groups they
    receive, I do not know of any existing broadcast/multicast based
    service which filters out individual postings, providing filtered
    posts on a demand basis.

    >
    >> >
    >> > If Ihug was to offer a full streaming newsfeed on Ultra, there would be
    >> > _no_ b/w available for anything else.

    >>
    >> It is easy enough to manage and throttle the bandwidth taken up any such
    >> multicast service. Just put the content to be broadcasted in a
    >> and broadcast when unused/spare bandwidth is available.

    >
    > Well then it's not full streaming is it. It'll stop and start randomly.


    The prioritized queue can work both ways, if more than three or four
    dynamicaly request items, then it make sense to send the items at same QoS
    ( Quality of Service ) priority than normal traffic. If you have hundreds
    of customers trying to download the latest film-trailer then it make evem
    more sense to multicast that content at an even higher priority. Just as
    bus lanes which are reserved during rush hour traffic promote the use of
    public transport, such prioritizing would entice customers to
    use the multicast system.

    It does not have to be perfect to be a more efficient means of delivering
    content.

    David Mohring - Here we go again.
    David Mohring, Dec 17, 2003
    #11
  12. David Mohring

    Mainlander Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 10:44:18 +1300, Mainlander wrote:
    >
    > > In article <>,
    > > says...
    > >
    > >> That such services are not available or in major development today is a
    > >> testament to the short sited greed of the ISPs who would rather charge
    > >> by the byte or width of pipe.

    > >
    > > Strange this, this being the way they are charged either by their service
    > > provider (telecom) or from overseas

    >
    > Does your local petrol station force you to accept crude oil? Does your
    > local supermarket force you buy all your groceries in bulk?
    >
    > Downstream providers in all industries reprocess,unbundle and repackage
    > good and services to provide a more effective service for the
    > downstream consumer.


    Except ISPs, according to your claim above.

    > There was a time in NZ when local ISPs believed that providing uncapped
    > dial up access was also an impossibility, dispite that most other
    > countries alread provided uncapped accounts by default, now all NZ ISPs
    > provide some form of uncapped dial up access.


    Not true. No ISP in NZ provides truly unlimited dial up access.


    --
    Full featured open source Win32 newsreader - Gravity 2.70
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/mpgravity/
    Mainlander, Dec 17, 2003
    #12
  13. David Mohring

    T.N.O. Guest

    Mainlander wrote:
    > Not true. No ISP in NZ provides truly unlimited dial up access.


    They will for a price... You just have to find one that will do it, and
    as for what the price will be, that is their choice...
    T.N.O., Dec 17, 2003
    #13
  14. On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:48:51 +1300, Mainlander wrote:

    > In article <>,
    > says...
    >> On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 10:44:18 +1300, Mainlander wrote:
    >>
    >> > In article <>,
    >> > says...
    >> >
    >> >> That such services are not available or in major development today is a
    >> >> testament to the short sited greed of the ISPs who would rather charge
    >> >> by the byte or width of pipe.
    >> >
    >> > Strange this, this being the way they are charged either by their service
    >> > provider (telecom) or from overseas

    >>
    >> Does your local petrol station force you to accept crude oil? Does your
    >> local supermarket force you buy all your groceries in bulk?
    >>
    >> Downstream providers in all industries
    >> good and services to provide a more effective service for the
    >> downstream consumer.

    >
    > Except ISPs, according to your claim above.


    The next two paragraph you snipped out proved that ISPs do exactly that

    http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=
    <unsnip>
    As I pointed out in my article
    http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=
    +Distributed content delivery service providers such as Akamai
    +( http://www.akamai.com/ ) already provide mirroring services that are
    +hosted by many of the major New Zealand ISPs, including IHUG. It would
    +be possible, using the above method, to push similar content out via
    +Multicast to the users locally hosted caches.

    All ISPs in NZ also make use of transparent web proxies, to reduce
    external network bandwidth by up to 25%, it is very cost effective
    for the ISPs to do so.
    </unsnip>

    ISPs *DO* reprocess,unbundle and repackage the transmited data to provide
    a more effective service for the downstream consumer.

    >
    >> There was a time in NZ when local ISPs believed that providing uncapped
    >> dial up access was also an impossibility, dispite that most other
    >> countries alread provided uncapped accounts by default, now all NZ ISPs
    >> provide some form of uncapped dial up access.

    ^^^^^^^^
    >
    > Not true. No ISP in NZ provides truly unlimited dial up access.


    Note that I stated "uncapped" not unlimited. Uncapped means that there is
    no additional charges for data beyond the monthly flat service fee.

    For example, the orginal IHUG satnet/Ultra accounts were uncapped, but not
    unlimited. In the start IHUG did not limit the amount you could download
    nor did IHUG charge anything more beyond the flat rate monthly fee.

    I know that most ISPs terms and conditions for regular flat rate dial up
    accounts state that the service "may not be used as a permanent connection"
    and some ISPs place limits on the number of hours per month or the hours
    during peek usage, but allmost all ISPs provide dial-up accounts which do
    not limit the amount you could download or charge anything more beyond the
    flat rate monthly fee.

    David Mohring - ...
    David Mohring, Dec 17, 2003
    #14
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