wireless broadband security

Discussion in 'Computer Security' started by kms news, Nov 26, 2004.

  1. kms news

    kms news Guest

    Sometimes I am in a place where there is wireless broadband within reach of
    my laptop. Many times this is someones home wireless cable system. My
    qustions is if I use this, can that person get access to my system? Or can
    they record my keystrokes and get my password?

    I have Norton Internet Security on my laptop. Is that enough?


    K
    kms news, Nov 26, 2004
    #1
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  2. kms news

    Leythos Guest

    In article <ZALpd.373$>,
    says...
    > Sometimes I am in a place where there is wireless broadband within reach of
    > my laptop. Many times this is someones home wireless cable system. My
    > qustions is if I use this, can that person get access to my system? Or can
    > they record my keystrokes and get my password?
    >
    > I have Norton Internet Security on my laptop. Is that enough?


    If you use an untrusted network you are exposing your system to anything
    they want to do to it - including full capture of all data passing
    across the network, access to your machine, and others. Some security
    packages allow full access to anyone in the same subnet, so that might
    mean that your firewall does nothing to protect you while you are
    connected to the Wireless network.

    Use, without permission, is also considered theft.

    --
    --

    (Remove 999 to reply to me)
    Leythos, Nov 26, 2004
    #2
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  3. kms news

    donnie Guest

    On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:35:24 GMT, Leythos <> wrote:

    >If you use an untrusted network you are exposing your system to anything
    >they want to do to it - including full capture of all data passing
    >across the network, access to your machine, and others. Some security
    >packages allow full access to anyone in the same subnet, so that might
    >mean that your firewall does nothing to protect you while you are
    >connected to the Wireless network.
    >
    >Use, without permission, is also considered theft.
    >
    >--

    #######################
    I only agree with part of that. What passes through the network can
    be captured but access to the files on your machine depends on the
    security on your machine. Make sure nothing is shared and stop all
    unneeded services.
    donnie.
    donnie, Nov 27, 2004
    #3
  4. kms news

    Leythos Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:35:24 GMT, Leythos <> wrote:
    >
    > >If you use an untrusted network you are exposing your system to anything
    > >they want to do to it - including full capture of all data passing
    > >across the network, access to your machine, and others. Some security
    > >packages allow full access to anyone in the same subnet, so that might
    > >mean that your firewall does nothing to protect you while you are
    > >connected to the Wireless network.
    > >
    > >Use, without permission, is also considered theft.
    > >
    > >--

    > #######################
    > I only agree with part of that. What passes through the network can
    > be captured but access to the files on your machine depends on the
    > security on your machine. Make sure nothing is shared and stop all
    > unneeded services.
    > donnie.


    Donnie, do you really thing that someone asking the type of question as
    was asked is going to know enough to "Stop unneeded services" and to
    make sure that shares and files are protected? The simple answer is NO.
    The simple answer is to not thieve services off of other peoples
    networks, you never know when someone has setup an open network just to
    steal information off of unsuspecting people using open networks.

    --
    --

    (Remove 999 to reply to me)
    Leythos, Nov 27, 2004
    #4
  5. kms news

    cacophony Guest

    Leythos wrote:

    > In article <>,
    > says...
    >> On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:35:24 GMT, Leythos <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >If you use an untrusted network you are exposing your system to anything
    >> >they want to do to it - including full capture of all data passing
    >> >across the network, access to your machine, and others. Some security
    >> >packages allow full access to anyone in the same subnet, so that might
    >> >mean that your firewall does nothing to protect you while you are
    >> >connected to the Wireless network.
    >> >
    >> >Use, without permission, is also considered theft.
    >> >
    >> >--

    >> #######################
    >> I only agree with part of that. What passes through the network can
    >> be captured but access to the files on your machine depends on the
    >> security on your machine. Make sure nothing is shared and stop all
    >> unneeded services.
    >> donnie.

    >
    > Donnie, do you really thing that someone asking the type of question as
    > was asked is going to know enough to "Stop unneeded services" and to
    > make sure that shares and files are protected? The simple answer is NO.
    > The simple answer is to not thieve services off of other peoples
    > networks, you never know when someone has setup an open network just to
    > steal information off of unsuspecting people using open networks.
    >


    Which is what Google is for.
    cacophony, Nov 30, 2004
    #5
  6. kms news

    donnie Guest

    On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 03:14:25 GMT, cacophony <>
    wrote:

    >> Donnie, do you really thing that someone asking the type of question as
    >> was asked is going to know enough to "Stop unneeded services" and to
    >> make sure that shares and files are protected? The simple answer is NO.
    >> The simple answer is to not thieve services off of other peoples
    >> networks, you never know when someone has setup an open network just to
    >> steal information off of unsuspecting people using open networks.

    ##############################
    I don't if he or she knows how to follow my suggestions, but I'm sure
    they can be researched. As far as all your stealing theories go, that
    wasn't the question. For some reason, people here feel the need to
    preach their computer user morals. May I suggest a new group called
    alt.computer.wireless.morals.
    donnie, Nov 30, 2004
    #6
  7. kms news

    kms news Guest

    When you say "What passes through the network can
    be captured " what do you mean? When I type in my passwords? I am sure that
    my settings prevent anyone from accessing my computer. But I am concerned
    with what I type being captured. Anyway to prevent that? Or is there a way
    to know if it is being seen?

    As far as the "use without permission "thing goes. At mt home I have a
    broadband wireless connection and don't mind if people connect, as long as I
    am secure.


    "donnie" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:35:24 GMT, Leythos <> wrote:
    >
    >>If you use an untrusted network you are exposing your system to anything
    >>they want to do to it - including full capture of all data passing
    >>across the network, access to your machine, and others. Some security
    >>packages allow full access to anyone in the same subnet, so that might
    >>mean that your firewall does nothing to protect you while you are
    >>connected to the Wireless network.
    >>
    >>Use, without permission, is also considered theft.
    >>
    >>--

    > #######################
    > I only agree with part of that. What passes through the network can
    > be captured but access to the files on your machine depends on the
    > security on your machine. Make sure nothing is shared and stop all
    > unneeded services.
    > donnie.
    kms news, Dec 1, 2004
    #7
  8. kms news

    Celtic Leroy Guest

    "kms news" <> wrote:

    >When you say "What passes through the network can
    >be captured " what do you mean? When I type in my passwords? I am sure that
    >my settings prevent anyone from accessing my computer. But I am concerned
    >with what I type being captured. Anyway to prevent that? Or is there a way
    >to know if it is being seen?
    >
    >As far as the "use without permission "thing goes. At mt home I have a
    >broadband wireless connection and don't mind if people connect, as long as I
    >am secure.
    >


    Any time someone obtains access to your network it is
    unsecure...simply because once in they can do anything they want, like
    visiting insecure sites, run malicious software on other (local, so
    they are considered trusted) computers on that network. If you don't
    want the problem of others keeping track of your keystrokes on their
    network...DON'T USE IT!!!

    This is not an issue of morality, as some would say, it's a matter of
    ownership, security, and theft laws. You are stealing when you use
    other peoples resources without their EXPRESS permission (that means
    they know you're doing it and have given you permission).

    If I had the time (and was using a wireless network), I would write
    software that would watch for unauthorized users connecting to my
    network. Then I would gather enough evidence to make a charge of
    theft stick and take their precious laptop away from them in court. I
    might even get the car they drive around in while doing it.

    PS What you do at your home has nothing to do with the legality of
    what you're doing to others. Just because you don't mind if people
    connect to your home system doesn't mean they don't mind if you
    connect to theirs. I hope you lose your ass in a lawsuit.
    Celtic Leroy, Dec 1, 2004
    #8
  9. kms news

    Celtic Leroy Guest

    donnie <> wrote:

    >May I suggest a new group called alt.computer.wireless.morals.


    Better yet, all of you go to alt.computer.hackers that's where the
    law breakers are.
    Celtic Leroy, Dec 1, 2004
    #9
  10. kms news

    Jim Watt Guest

    On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 23:54:10 GMT, donnie <> wrote:

    > For some reason, people here feel the need to
    >preach their computer user morals. May I suggest a new group called
    >alt.computer.wireless.morals.


    The difference between this group and a hacker group is that there
    seems to be a balance of people responsible for system security
    rather than people interested in compromising is.

    As we have to deal with problems from that perspective there
    is little sympathy for those who make our lives more difficult, and
    for instance virus writers and purveyors of spyware which causes
    us untold grief are seen as lowlifes in need of extermination.

    Of course you may not see things that way, in which case you
    might be better somewhere else where people do not have any
    principles.

    --
    Jim Watt
    http://www.gibnet.com
    Jim Watt, Dec 1, 2004
    #10
  11. kms news

    Jim Watt Guest

    On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 07:05:56 GMT, Celtic Leroy
    <> wrote:

    >"kms news" <> wrote:
    >
    >>When you say "What passes through the network can
    >>be captured " what do you mean? When I type in my passwords? I am sure that
    >>my settings prevent anyone from accessing my computer. But I am concerned
    >>with what I type being captured. Anyway to prevent that? Or is there a way
    >>to know if it is being seen?
    >>
    >>As far as the "use without permission "thing goes. At mt home I have a
    >>broadband wireless connection and don't mind if people connect, as long as I
    >>am secure.
    >>

    >
    >Any time someone obtains access to your network it is
    >unsecure...simply because once in they can do anything they want, like
    >visiting insecure sites, run malicious software on other (local, so
    >they are considered trusted) computers on that network. If you don't
    >want the problem of others keeping track of your keystrokes on their
    >network...DON'T USE IT!!!
    >
    >This is not an issue of morality, as some would say, it's a matter of
    >ownership, security, and theft laws. You are stealing when you use
    >other peoples resources without their EXPRESS permission (that means
    >they know you're doing it and have given you permission).
    >
    >If I had the time (and was using a wireless network), I would write
    >software that would watch for unauthorized users connecting to my
    >network. Then I would gather enough evidence to make a charge of
    >theft stick and take their precious laptop away from them in court. I
    >might even get the car they drive around in while doing it.
    >
    >PS What you do at your home has nothing to do with the legality of
    >what you're doing to others. Just because you don't mind if people
    >connect to your home system doesn't mean they don't mind if you
    >connect to theirs. I hope you lose your ass in a lawsuit.


    Yes, and no

    Anyone who runs a wireless system without encryption is inviting
    people to use it. Of course there are dangers for the users official
    or otherwise. US law on intercepting communications does protect
    encrypted transmissions specially and I think your chances of
    obtaining a conviction against someone accessing an open system
    are not good.
    --
    Jim Watt
    http://www.gibnet.com
    Jim Watt, Dec 1, 2004
    #11
  12. kms news

    donnie Guest

    On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:41:06 +0100, Jim Watt <_way>
    wrote:

    >> For some reason, people here feel the need to
    >>preach their computer user morals. May I suggest a new group called
    >>alt.computer.wireless.morals.

    >



    >The difference between this group and a hacker group is that there
    >seems to be a balance of people responsible for system security
    >rather than people interested in compromising is.

    #############################
    The original poster is not a hacker. Picking up a signal in the air
    is not compromising anything. Many wireless sytems leave their web
    access opened but not the internal network. If he wasn't going after
    what was behind the router, then I don't see a problem. He just
    wanted to know if his machine was vulnerable at that point. That was
    the only issue but as always, you guys made a moutain out of a mole
    hill.
    donnie.

    He just wanted to know if his system was vulnerable at that point.
    donnie, Dec 2, 2004
    #12
  13. kms news

    Celtic Leroy Guest

    donnie <> wrote:

    >On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:41:06 +0100, Jim Watt <_way>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>> For some reason, people here feel the need to
    >>>preach their computer user morals. May I suggest a new group called
    >>>alt.computer.wireless.morals.

    >>

    >
    >
    >>The difference between this group and a hacker group is that there
    >>seems to be a balance of people responsible for system security
    >>rather than people interested in compromising is.

    >#############################
    >The original poster is not a hacker. Picking up a signal in the air
    >is not compromising anything. Many wireless sytems leave their web
    >access opened but not the internal network. If he wasn't going after
    >what was behind the router, then I don't see a problem. He just
    >wanted to know if his machine was vulnerable at that point. That was
    >the only issue but as always, you guys made a moutain out of a mole
    >hill.
    >donnie.
    >
    > He just wanted to know if his system was vulnerable at that point.


    I'm sorry to say donnie, I don't believe you'll ever understand the
    difference between being a "good" neighbor and a "bad" neighbor.

    From what I know of you from your posts, If I was your neighbor and I
    saw someone breaking into your house and steeling your furniture while
    you were away, I'd have a hard time deciding whether to call the
    police. Hmmm, does he allow this, or not?

    To further the point...Picking up a signal in the air is not against
    the law...making the attempt to do something with it is!! You've made
    that step from just inadvertently "finding" a signal, to trying to USE
    it. I feel sorry for you that you can't understand the difference.
    Celtic Leroy, Dec 2, 2004
    #13
  14. kms news

    Interfecus Guest

    Unless I'm mistaken, there is absolutely nothing illegal in logging
    transmissions on a network _so long as all authorised users willingly agree
    to that logging_. If somebody uses your network without being authorised
    then it's their problem if they get included in that logging process.

    Having said this, people should _always_ secure their wireless networks.
    Running an unsecured network is just an invitation for people to steal
    internet access, monitor private communications, and hack into local
    computers on the network.

    In any case, breaking into a network and taking advantage of services (i.e.
    internet access) without permission is without doubt theft. If you get
    caught, however unlikely that is, you can and quite probably will be
    prosecuted.

    "Jim Watt" <_way> wrote in message
    news:eek:...
    > On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 07:05:56 GMT, Celtic Leroy
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >"kms news" <> wrote:
    > >
    > >>When you say "What passes through the network can
    > >>be captured " what do you mean? When I type in my passwords? I am sure

    that
    > >>my settings prevent anyone from accessing my computer. But I am

    concerned
    > >>with what I type being captured. Anyway to prevent that? Or is there a

    way
    > >>to know if it is being seen?
    > >>
    > >>As far as the "use without permission "thing goes. At mt home I have a
    > >>broadband wireless connection and don't mind if people connect, as long

    as I
    > >>am secure.
    > >>

    > >
    > >Any time someone obtains access to your network it is
    > >unsecure...simply because once in they can do anything they want, like
    > >visiting insecure sites, run malicious software on other (local, so
    > >they are considered trusted) computers on that network. If you don't
    > >want the problem of others keeping track of your keystrokes on their
    > >network...DON'T USE IT!!!
    > >
    > >This is not an issue of morality, as some would say, it's a matter of
    > >ownership, security, and theft laws. You are stealing when you use
    > >other peoples resources without their EXPRESS permission (that means
    > >they know you're doing it and have given you permission).
    > >
    > >If I had the time (and was using a wireless network), I would write
    > >software that would watch for unauthorized users connecting to my
    > >network. Then I would gather enough evidence to make a charge of
    > >theft stick and take their precious laptop away from them in court. I
    > >might even get the car they drive around in while doing it.
    > >
    > >PS What you do at your home has nothing to do with the legality of
    > >what you're doing to others. Just because you don't mind if people
    > >connect to your home system doesn't mean they don't mind if you
    > >connect to theirs. I hope you lose your ass in a lawsuit.

    >
    > Yes, and no
    >
    > Anyone who runs a wireless system without encryption is inviting
    > people to use it. Of course there are dangers for the users official
    > or otherwise. US law on intercepting communications does protect
    > encrypted transmissions specially and I think your chances of
    > obtaining a conviction against someone accessing an open system
    > are not good.
    > --
    > Jim Watt
    > http://www.gibnet.com
    Interfecus, Dec 2, 2004
    #14
  15. kms news

    Jim Watt Guest

    On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 18:44:52 +1300, "Interfecus" <>
    wrote:

    >In any case, breaking into a network and taking advantage of services (i.e.
    >internet access) without permission is without doubt theft. If you get
    >caught, however unlikely that is, you can and quite probably will be
    >prosecuted.


    "Breaking in" hardly describes using an access point, nothing is
    broken.

    "Theft" is the removal of property with the intention of permanently
    depriving the owner of it.

    "Computer missuse" perhaps under the UK act, although the
    fact that the system was totally open could be taken as an
    invitation for anyone to use it.

    There is more danger of the person using a a network having their
    details compromised than being caught with a successful prosecution
    unless they are +very+ stupid.

    What amazes me is the stupidity of the people installing open
    access points, unless their intention is to provide a public
    service.
    --
    Jim Watt
    http://www.gibnet.com
    Jim Watt, Dec 2, 2004
    #15
  16. In article <>, on Thu, 02 Dec 2004 09:49:02 +0100, Jim
    Watt <_way> wrote:

    | On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 18:44:52 +1300, "Interfecus" <>
    | wrote:
    |
    | >In any case, breaking into a network and taking advantage of services (i.e.
    | >internet access) without permission is without doubt theft. If you get
    | >caught, however unlikely that is, you can and quite probably will be
    | >prosecuted.
    |
    | "Breaking in" hardly describes using an access point, nothing is
    | broken.
    |
    | "Theft" is the removal of property with the intention of permanently
    | depriving the owner of it.
    |
    | "Computer missuse" perhaps under the UK act, although the
    | fact that the system was totally open could be taken as an
    | invitation for anyone to use it.
    |
    | There is more danger of the person using a a network having their
    | details compromised than being caught with a successful prosecution
    | unless they are +very+ stupid.
    |
    | What amazes me is the stupidity of the people installing open
    | access points, unless their intention is to provide a public
    | service.

    Agreed. Theft of electricity springs to mind though. Wasn't someone prosecuted
    on those grounds after a hack?

    Theft of bandwidth? Can bandwidth be stolen?


    <davidp />

    --
    David Postill
    David Postill, Dec 2, 2004
    #16
  17. kms news

    Jim Watt Guest

    On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 14:22:11 GMT, David Postill <>
    wrote:

    >Agreed. Theft of electricity springs to mind though.


    Very old,. and used to prosecute people getting telephone calls
    for free, but with a wireless connection into a network ... no.

    >Theft of bandwidth? Can bandwidth be stolen?


    No, basically thats part of the reason to come up with the new crime
    of 'computer missuse' which is covered in the United Kingdom.

    --
    Jim Watt
    http://www.gibnet.com
    Jim Watt, Dec 2, 2004
    #17
  18. Jim Watt <_way> wrote:

    > On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 14:22:11 GMT, David Postill <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >Agreed. Theft of electricity springs to mind though.

    >
    > Very old,. and used to prosecute people getting telephone calls
    > for free, but with a wireless connection into a network ... no.
    >
    > >Theft of bandwidth? Can bandwidth be stolen?

    >
    > No, basically thats part of the reason to come up with the new crime
    > of 'computer missuse' which is covered in the United Kingdom.
    >
    > --
    > Jim Watt


    there are issues in uk with the fact that a lot of isp offer adsl
    packages with bandwith limits which will cost to owner if they go over
    so if some one uses a open network, it could cost the ower, so bandwith
    could be stolen, how the courts would look at it is another thing, have
    to wait for a case really.

    Roger
    Roger Merriman, Dec 2, 2004
    #18
  19. kms news

    nemo outis Guest

    In article <>, wrote:
    >In article <>, on Thu, 02 Dec 2004
    > 09:49:02 +0100, Jim
    >Watt <_way> wrote:
    >
    >| On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 18:44:52 +1300, "Interfecus" <>
    >| wrote:
    >|
    >| >In any case, breaking into a network and taking advantage of services (i.e.
    >| >internet access) without permission is without doubt theft. If you get
    >| >caught, however unlikely that is, you can and quite probably will be
    >| >prosecuted.
    >|
    >| "Breaking in" hardly describes using an access point, nothing is
    >| broken.
    >|
    >| "Theft" is the removal of property with the intention of permanently
    >| depriving the owner of it.
    >|
    >| "Computer missuse" perhaps under the UK act, although the
    >| fact that the system was totally open could be taken as an
    >| invitation for anyone to use it.
    >|
    >| There is more danger of the person using a a network having their
    >| details compromised than being caught with a successful prosecution
    >| unless they are +very+ stupid.
    >|
    >| What amazes me is the stupidity of the people installing open
    >| access points, unless their intention is to provide a public
    >| service.
    >
    >Agreed. Theft of electricity springs to mind though. Wasn't someone prosecuted
    >on those grounds after a hack?
    >
    >Theft of bandwidth? Can bandwidth be stolen?



    Google "theft by conversion" (sometimes just called "conversion")
    and "theft of service."

    Regards,
    nemo outis, Dec 3, 2004
    #19
  20. kms news

    donnie Guest

    On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 05:24:12 GMT, Celtic Leroy
    <> wrote:

    >donnie <> wrote:
    >
    >>On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:41:06 +0100, Jim Watt <_way>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>> For some reason, people here feel the need to
    >>>>preach their computer user morals. May I suggest a new group called
    >>>>alt.computer.wireless.morals.
    >>>

    >>
    >>
    >>>The difference between this group and a hacker group is that there
    >>>seems to be a balance of people responsible for system security
    >>>rather than people interested in compromising is.

    >>#############################
    >>The original poster is not a hacker. Picking up a signal in the air
    >>is not compromising anything. Many wireless sytems leave their web
    >>access opened but not the internal network. If he wasn't going after
    >>what was behind the router, then I don't see a problem. He just
    >>wanted to know if his machine was vulnerable at that point. That was
    >>the only issue but as always, you guys made a moutain out of a mole
    >>hill.
    >>donnie.
    >>
    >> He just wanted to know if his system was vulnerable at that point.

    >
    >I'm sorry to say donnie, I don't believe you'll ever understand the
    >difference between being a "good" neighbor and a "bad" neighbor.
    >
    >From what I know of you from your posts, If I was your neighbor and I
    >saw someone breaking into your house and steeling your furniture while
    >you were away, I'd have a hard time deciding whether to call the
    >police. Hmmm, does he allow this, or not?
    >
    >To further the point...Picking up a signal in the air is not against
    >the law...making the attempt to do something with it is!! You've made
    >that step from just inadvertently "finding" a signal, to trying to USE
    >it. I feel sorry for you that you can't understand the difference.

    ############################
    Your analogy is worthless. I won't even respond to it. Again, the
    original poster never said he was trying to do anything w/ their
    signal. You guys just assumed that.
    donnie.
    donnie, Dec 3, 2004
    #20
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