Windows Vista delayed to 2007 Q1!

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 22, 2006.

  1. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/22/microsoft_vista_delayed/

    I reckon this won't be the last delay!

    AND, I personally know of three people (not counting those who have been
    discussed in WellyLUG who in the last two weeks have completely wiped
    Windows off their computer and replaced it with SuSE Linux 10, and each
    has said more or less "no regrets and no going back".


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Jeffrey Jaffe, Novell CTO: "What many people are discovering is that the
    Linux desktop works just fine."
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 22, 2006
    #1
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  2. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    Fred Dagg Guest

    On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:16:46 +1200, Have A Nice Cup of Tea <>
    exclaimed:

    >http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/22/microsoft_vista_delayed/
    >
    >I reckon this won't be the last delay!
    >
    >AND, I personally know of three people (not counting those who have been
    >discussed in WellyLUG who in the last two weeks have completely wiped
    >Windows off their computer and replaced it with SuSE Linux 10, and each
    >has said more or less "no regrets and no going back".
    >

    Good for you. I know 6 people that have installed Windows.

    Vista will most likely stamp out Linux on the desktop, anyway. Why
    would someone in their right mind want to use a flakey, slow,
    incompatible and feature-lacking Linux box when they could use one
    with the power and usability of Vista, all for the sake of a couple of
    hundred bucks?

    Same with server-side. Watch this space.
     
    Fred Dagg, Mar 22, 2006
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    E. Scrooge Guest

    "Have A Nice Cup of Tea" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/22/microsoft_vista_delayed/
    >
    > I reckon this won't be the last delay!
    >
    > AND, I personally know of three people (not counting those who have been
    > discussed in WellyLUG who in the last two weeks have completely wiped
    > Windows off their computer and replaced it with SuSE Linux 10, and each
    > has said more or less "no regrets and no going back".
    >
    >
    > Have A Nice Cup of Tea
    >
    > --
    > Jeffrey Jaffe, Novell CTO: "What many people are discovering is that the
    > Linux desktop works just fine."


    Apart from you and your 3 mates who else really cares?

    You'd save power by turning of your PC and cutting the plug right off it so
    you won't be tempted to use it again.

    Since you can of course do what you like with your PC, just why should
    everyone else use the same software and programs as you try to do?

    You don't seem to be happy unless everyone else does what you do, and you
    can't seem to enjoy what you've got unless you know that everyone else is
    using the same crap.

    E. Scrooge
     
    E. Scrooge, Mar 22, 2006
    #3
  4. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    Peter Guest

    Fred Dagg wrote:
    > Good for you. I know 6 people that have installed Windows.


    Vista will most likely stamp out Microsoft on the desktop, anyway. Why
    would someone in their right mind want to use a flakey, slow,
    incompatible and feature-lacking Windos box when they could use one
    with the power and usability of Linux? And that is before you start
    considering all the problems with Windos viruses, worms, trojans and
    spyware.

    Same with server-side. Watch this space.




    Peter
     
    Peter, Mar 22, 2006
    #4
  5. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    Craig Shore Guest

    On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:38:10 +1200, "E. Scrooge" <scrooge@*shot.co.nz (*sling)>
    wrote:

    >Since you can of course do what you like with your PC, just why should
    >everyone else use the same software and programs as you try to do?


    Because Microsoft is evil and must be eliminated. Linux is the way to do it, we
    must get everyone to downgrade.
     
    Craig Shore, Mar 22, 2006
    #5
  6. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    E. Scrooge Guest

    "Craig Shore" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:...
    > On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:38:10 +1200, "E. Scrooge" <scrooge@*shot.co.nz
    > (*sling)>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>Since you can of course do what you like with your PC, just why should
    >>everyone else use the same software and programs as you try to do?

    >
    > Because Microsoft is evil and must be eliminated. Linux is the way to do
    > it, we
    > must get everyone to downgrade.


    But just how many people that use Linux are also Nazis as well?

    E. Scrooge
     
    E. Scrooge, Mar 22, 2006
    #6
  7. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:16:46 +1200, Have A Nice Cup of Tea wrote:

    > AND, I personally know of three people (not counting those who have been
    > discussed in WellyLUG who in the last two weeks have completely wiped
    > Windows off their computer and replaced it with SuSE Linux 10, and each
    > has said more or less "no regrets and no going back".


    I tell ya, this is how the revolution starts comrade, one desktop at a
    time!

    I'm using Fedora Core 5 at the moment. I'm surprised you hadn't jumped on
    me when my headers said I was using Pan over Agent. I figured I wanted to
    see how Linux was doing these days.

    Cool points:

    1) Yum is still awesome. Command line, but still awesome.

    2) I can have multiple sounds playing at the same time. Just like Windows
    98! Well, I was using Fedora Core 3, and by default it was only one sound
    at a time. Now with FC5 by default, there's lots of sounds at a time.

    3) Drivers. I didn't install any, it didn't ask for any, I was happy, the
    computer was happy.

    Uncool points:

    1) A program was playing sound that I didn't want, so I closed it. It
    didn't want to die, so I xkilled it. This however locked up the sound. I
    tried switching to runtime 1, and then back to 5. This didn't help. I
    needed to reboot to get the sound back.

    2) I downloaded a rar file. The rar file has a pretty icon and a default
    program associated with it (Archive Manager). Archive Manager doesn't open
    rar files it tells me.

    3) I like watching videos. So I download mplayer. Oh, and then I download
    a GUI, Kplayer. Oh, and then I download all the codecs and put them in
    /usr/lib/win32 I believe. Oh, and because I like watching movies from
    within Firefox, I download mplayer-plugin. Which I need to compile. And I
    try, but doesn't work on my system because of random cryptic error. So I
    don't watch videos from my web browser:(

    I'll see how long I stick with FC5. At least, now I can talk about my
    experiences with a modern version of Linux.

    --
    Regards,

    Waylon Kenning.
     
    Waylon Kenning, Mar 22, 2006
    #7
  8. > Uncool points:
    >
    > 1) A program was playing sound that I didn't want, so I closed it. It
    > didn't want to die, so I xkilled it. This however locked up the sound. I
    > tried switching to runtime 1, and then back to 5. This didn't help. I
    > needed to reboot to get the sound back.
    >
    > 2) I downloaded a rar file. The rar file has a pretty icon and a default
    > program associated with it (Archive Manager). Archive Manager doesn't open
    > rar files it tells me.
    >
    > 3) I like watching videos. So I download mplayer. Oh, and then I download
    > a GUI, Kplayer. Oh, and then I download all the codecs and put them in
    > /usr/lib/win32 I believe. Oh, and because I like watching movies from
    > within Firefox, I download mplayer-plugin. Which I need to compile. And I
    > try, but doesn't work on my system because of random cryptic error. So I
    > don't watch videos from my web browser:(
    >
    > I'll see how long I stick with FC5. At least, now I can talk about my
    > experiences with a modern version of Linux.
    >

    yeah, see that's the sorta bullshit which i don't have time for.

    R
     
    Rimu Atkinson, Mar 22, 2006
    #8
  9. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    BrianM Guest

    On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:16:46 +1000, Have A Nice Cup of Tea wrote:

    > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/22/microsoft_vista_delayed/
    >
    > I reckon this won't be the last delay!
    >
    > AND, I personally know of three people (not counting those who have been
    > discussed in WellyLUG who in the last two weeks have completely wiped
    > Windows off their computer and replaced it with SuSE Linux 10, and each
    > has said more or less "no regrets and no going back".
    >
    >
    > Have A Nice Cup of Tea


    No dual-boot migration, just cold turkey ?

    cheers
    BrianM

    --
    "It was just a Corvette"
    Vin Diesel xXx
     
    BrianM, Mar 22, 2006
    #9
  10. What has delayed Vista - hopefully it is because Microsoft is having
    trouble getting their nasty Palladium working.


    Palladium , or whatever it is called today, is a hardware / software
    straitjacket that makes YOU the untrusted person in your computer.


    Patrick
     
    Patrick FitzGerald, Mar 22, 2006
    #10
  11. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    MarkH Guest

    Waylon Kenning <> wrote in
    news:p:

    > On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:16:46 +1200, Have A Nice Cup of Tea wrote:
    >
    >> AND, I personally know of three people (not counting those who have
    >> been discussed in WellyLUG who in the last two weeks have completely
    >> wiped Windows off their computer and replaced it with SuSE Linux 10,
    >> and each has said more or less "no regrets and no going back".

    >
    > I tell ya, this is how the revolution starts comrade, one desktop at a
    > time!
    >
    > I'm using Fedora Core 5 at the moment. I'm surprised you hadn't jumped
    > on me when my headers said I was using Pan over Agent. I figured I
    > wanted to see how Linux was doing these days.


    You should try SUSE 10.

    > Cool points:
    >
    > 1) Yum is still awesome. Command line, but still awesome.


    I like YaST on SUSE, the software management handles dependencies and is
    GUI based.

    > 2) I can have multiple sounds playing at the same time. Just like
    > Windows 98! Well, I was using Fedora Core 3, and by default it was
    > only one sound at a time. Now with FC5 by default, there's lots of
    > sounds at a time.


    I am not too sure how many sounds play at once, but my sound works the
    way I expect it.

    > 3) Drivers. I didn't install any, it didn't ask for any, I was happy,
    > the computer was happy.


    The same with SUSE.

    > Uncool points:
    >
    > 1) A program was playing sound that I didn't want, so I closed it. It
    > didn't want to die, so I xkilled it. This however locked up the sound.
    > I tried switching to runtime 1, and then back to 5. This didn't help.
    > I needed to reboot to get the sound back.


    I haven't seen a problem like this, but I probably haven't run the same
    app.

    > 2) I downloaded a rar file. The rar file has a pretty icon and a
    > default program associated with it (Archive Manager). Archive Manager
    > doesn't open rar files it tells me.


    I have no problem opening rar files in the default program on SUSE. I
    just checked - the default program is Ark, and it definitely opens rar
    files.

    > 3) I like watching videos. So I download mplayer. Oh, and then I
    > download a GUI, Kplayer. Oh, and then I download all the codecs and
    > put them in /usr/lib/win32 I believe. Oh, and because I like watching
    > movies from within Firefox, I download mplayer-plugin. Which I need to
    > compile. And I try, but doesn't work on my system because of random
    > cryptic error. So I don't watch videos from my web browser:(


    I installed mplayer with YaST and a box popped up advising that YaST
    also wanted to download codecs and some other stuff, I agreed and now
    all videos and MP3s play fine. The plugin for Mozilla/Firefox is listed
    in YaST, so no need to compile - I haven't actually tried it though.

    > I'll see how long I stick with FC5. At least, now I can talk about my
    > experiences with a modern version of Linux.


    The trouble is that not all versions of Linux are the same, some work
    better with less effort.

    For me the choice of Linux or Windows is irrelevant, I use Windows on my
    main PC. This works out well for me because I play games and I sync my
    Pocket PC to this PC. I also like XNews more than ANY linux newsreader.
    But with my main PC running Windows I can't think of any reason why my
    other PCs need to also run Windows.

    My server runs SUSE 10 and I use it as:
    * An internet gateway with firewall (2 NICs - 1 to Router & 1 to the
    LAN)
    * DHCP server
    * File server (750GB of storage shared with Samba)
    * Time server
    * Internet downloader PC (Firefox + KGet)
    For what I use it for SUSE works well and some of the things it does
    cannot be done from WinXP.

    My Writer also runs SUSE 10 and I use it for Writing DVDs while doing
    other stuff on my main PC. K3B works as good as anything for writing
    disks.

    My Test PC is currently running SUSE 10 and I use it to play TV on my
    2nd monitor while doing other stuff. SUSE works fine for that. I also
    connect a different HDD on this PC to try other Linux Distros.

    My TV-PC in the living room is running Knoppix 3.9 installed to HDD. I
    like the way it handles TV-Out and it is just used to play stuff from
    the server onto the TV. I had problems getting MPlayer working on that
    one so I installed VLC instead.

    I certainly won't be converting all of these 5 PCs to Vista, but I might
    consider trying Vista on the main PC instead of WinXP. The Linux PCs
    are all doing what I want them to with no need to change to anything
    else.

    At no point in the near future do I see myself dropping either MS
    Windows or Linux. I use the operating system that best suits my needs
    on the PC in question. The zealots are just tiresome fools that I
    mostly ignore.


    --
    Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
    See my pics at www.gigatech.co.nz (last updated 5-September-05)
    "The person on the other side was a young woman. Very obviously a
    young woman. There was no possible way she could have been mistaken
    for a young man in any language, especially Braille."
    Maskerade
     
    MarkH, Mar 22, 2006
    #11
  12. On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:22:35 +1200, Waylon Kenning wrote:

    > On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:16:46 +1200, Have A Nice Cup of Tea wrote:
    >
    >> AND, I personally know of three people (not counting those who have been
    >> discussed in WellyLUG who in the last two weeks have completely wiped
    >> Windows off their computer and replaced it with SuSE Linux 10, and each
    >> has said more or less "no regrets and no going back".

    >
    > I tell ya, this is how the revolution starts comrade, one desktop at a
    > time!
    >
    > I'm using Fedora Core 5 at the moment. I'm surprised you hadn't jumped on
    > me when my headers said I was using Pan over Agent. I figured I wanted to
    > see how Linux was doing these days.
    >
    > Cool points:
    >
    > 1) Yum is still awesome. Command line, but still awesome.


    Nothing wrong with using the command line - much more powerful than a GUI.


    > 2) I can have multiple sounds playing at the same time. Just like Windows
    > 98! Well, I was using Fedora Core 3, and by default it was only one sound
    > at a time. Now with FC5 by default, there's lots of sounds at a time.
    >
    > 3) Drivers. I didn't install any, it didn't ask for any, I was happy, the
    > computer was happy.


    Fedora didn't need to ask for any - it already knew what to use and where
    to find them. :eek:)


    > Uncool points:
    >
    > 1) A program was playing sound that I didn't want, so I closed it. It
    > didn't want to die, so I xkilled it. This however locked up the sound. I
    > tried switching to runtime 1, and then back to 5. This didn't help. I
    > needed to reboot to get the sound back.


    You did NOT need to reboot. What you DID need to do is to kill the sound
    server and restart it, and MAYBE logout of your GUI and back in.

    I mean, why reboot when the kernel is still running perfectly?


    > 2) I downloaded a rar file. The rar file has a pretty icon and a default
    > program associated with it (Archive Manager). Archive Manager doesn't open
    > rar files it tells me.


    Well did you install the programme that can decode proprietary RAR
    archives?


    > 3) I like watching videos. So I download mplayer. Oh, and then I download
    > a GUI, Kplayer. Oh, and then I download all the codecs and put them in
    > /usr/lib/win32 I believe. Oh, and because I like watching movies from
    > within Firefox, I download mplayer-plugin. Which I need to compile. And I
    > try, but doesn't work on my system because of random cryptic error. So I
    > don't watch videos from my web browser:(


    Most likely this is because you're using Fedora Core - which is the
    testing bed for RedHat Enterprise Server, and which only includes a
    minimum of Audio-Visual software.

    If playing downloadable video clips is what you want, then you should have
    installed a distro that is more appropriate for desktop use.


    > I'll see how long I stick with FC5. At least, now I can talk about my
    > experiences with a modern version of Linux.


    .... with a recent distro of Linux that is used as a testing/bug-finding
    ground for another distro.


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Jeffrey Jaffe, Novell CTO: "Our entire company does most of its work on Linux."
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 22, 2006
    #12
  13. On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:46:37 +1200, Rimu Atkinson wrote:

    > yeah, see that's the sorta bullshit which i don't have time for.


    .... Along with not using the shift keys to capitalise your sentences
    correctly!


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Jeffrey Jaffe, Novell CTO: "Our entire company does most of its work on Linux."
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 22, 2006
    #13
  14. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 22:00:14 +0000, BrianM wrote:

    >> AND, I personally know of three people (not counting those who have been
    >> discussed in WellyLUG who in the last two weeks have completely wiped
    >> Windows off their computer and replaced it with SuSE Linux 10, and each
    >> has said more or less "no regrets and no going back".

    >
    > No dual-boot migration, just cold turkey ?


    Yup.

    And they did so after they saw a working installation of SuSE 10. :eek:)

    A friend has lent his installation CDs so many times to people - sometimes
    to people not even living in Wellington.

    The bottom line is... Linux works, is very cool, is very easy to install,
    is free [sic], and is Free. [sic]


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Jeffrey Jaffe, Novell CTO: "Our entire company does most of its work on Linux."
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 23, 2006
    #14
  15. In article <>, Fred Dagg <> wrote:
    >On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:16:46 +1200, Have A Nice Cup of Tea <>
    >exclaimed:
    >
    >>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/22/microsoft_vista_delayed/
    >>
    >>I reckon this won't be the last delay!
    >>
    >>AND, I personally know of three people (not counting those who have been
    >>discussed in WellyLUG who in the last two weeks have completely wiped
    >>Windows off their computer and replaced it with SuSE Linux 10, and each
    >>has said more or less "no regrets and no going back".
    >>

    >Good for you. I know 6 people that have installed Windows.
    >
    >Vista will most likely stamp out Linux on the desktop, anyway. Why
    >would someone in their right mind want to use a flakey, slow,
    >incompatible and feature-lacking Linux box when they could use one
    >with the power and usability of Vista, all for the sake of a couple of
    >hundred bucks?
    >Same with server-side. Watch this space.


    You are extolling the virtues of something that doesn't yet exist ? ... that
    is very ... trusting ... is probably the politest word :)

    To be fair, the delay in its release encourages me ... perhaps they are
    trying to get it right before releasing it ? Hoora if this is so :)


    Bruce

    ----------------------------------------
    I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good
    people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and
    only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.

    Lord Vetinari in Guards ! Guards ! - Terry Pratchett

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
     
    Bruce Sinclair, Mar 23, 2006
    #15
  16. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    -=rjh=- Guest

    Have A Nice Cup of Tea wrote:
    > On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:22:35 +1200, Waylon Kenning wrote:


    >>
    >> 1) A program was playing sound that I didn't want, so I closed it. It
    >> didn't want to die, so I xkilled it. This however locked up the sound. I
    >> tried switching to runtime 1, and then back to 5. This didn't help. I
    >> needed to reboot to get the sound back.

    >
    > You did NOT need to reboot. What you DID need to do is to kill the sound
    > server and restart it, and MAYBE logout of your GUI and back in.


    And runlevel 1 is?
     
    -=rjh=-, Mar 23, 2006
    #16
  17. On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:50:32 +1200, Have A Nice Cup of Tea wrote:

    >> 1) A program was playing sound that I didn't want, so I closed it. It
    >> didn't want to die, so I xkilled it. This however locked up the sound. I
    >> tried switching to runtime 1, and then back to 5. This didn't help. I
    >> needed to reboot to get the sound back.

    >
    > You did NOT need to reboot. What you DID need to do is to kill the sound
    > server and restart it, and MAYBE logout of your GUI and back in.
    >
    > I mean, why reboot when the kernel is still running perfectly?


    Why should I have to restart a sound server? From a usability point of
    view, that sucks.

    >> 2) I downloaded a rar file. The rar file has a pretty icon and a default
    >> program associated with it (Archive Manager). Archive Manager doesn't open
    >> rar files it tells me.

    >
    > Well did you install the programme that can decode proprietary RAR
    > archives?


    Sure, I downloaded rar from Rarsoft. Command line and all, but worked.
    That wasn't the point I was making though, what's the point of associating
    a file to a program when the program doesn't open the file? From a
    usability point of view, that sucks.

    >> 3) I like watching videos. So I download mplayer. Oh, and then I download
    >> a GUI, Kplayer. Oh, and then I download all the codecs and put them in
    >> /usr/lib/win32 I believe. Oh, and because I like watching movies from
    >> within Firefox, I download mplayer-plugin. Which I need to compile. And I
    >> try, but doesn't work on my system because of random cryptic error. So I
    >> don't watch videos from my web browser:(

    >
    > Most likely this is because you're using Fedora Core - which is the
    > testing bed for RedHat Enterprise Server, and which only includes a
    > minimum of Audio-Visual software.
    >
    > If playing downloadable video clips is what you want, then you should have
    > installed a distro that is more appropriate for desktop use.


    Oh, my fault. I didn't know. And here I was looking at the installer which
    said "Desktop" and thinking, yeah, I need desktop software, just to see
    that instead *I* picked the wrong distribution. Shame on me.

    --
    Regards,

    Waylon Kenning.
     
    Waylon Kenning, Mar 23, 2006
    #17
  18. On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:03:58 +1200, Waylon Kenning wrote:

    >> If playing downloadable video clips is what you want, then you should have
    >> installed a distro that is more appropriate for desktop use.

    >
    > Oh, my fault. I didn't know.


    Did you ask?


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Jeffrey Jaffe, Novell CTO: "Open source and Linux in particular, have
    become an ideal environment for developing enterprise-class software,
    whether it is on the desktop or running major corporate workloads."
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 23, 2006
    #18
  19. On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:03:58 +1200, Waylon Kenning wrote:

    >> Well did you install the programme that can decode proprietary RAR
    >> archives?

    >
    > Sure, I downloaded rar from Rarsoft. Command line and all, but worked.


    Why didn't you install the package provided with your distro?


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Jeffrey Jaffe, Novell CTO: "What many people are discovering is that the
    Linux desktop works just fine."
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 23, 2006
    #19
  20. On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:07:50 +1200, Have A Nice Cup of Tea wrote:

    >>> If playing downloadable video clips is what you want, then you should have
    >>> installed a distro that is more appropriate for desktop use.

    >>
    >> Oh, my fault. I didn't know.

    >
    > Did you ask?


    So there's a specific distro for playing video clips? And one for perhaps
    doing office things? And maybe another for video editing? Perhaps a real
    good one just for programming?

    Have you heard of Windows? It's pretty neat. At the moment, there's a
    version for home users called Windows XP Home Edition. It's pretty good,
    covers most things a home user would do. Then there's a version for more
    advanced users called Windows XP Professional Edition. It can join
    domains, has more finer security controls (from what I've seen), but still
    is good for super advanced tasks like playing video clips off the
    internet. It's not just new technology, it's advanced! There's even a
    server version of Windows, but I wont get into that here.

    But hey, don't take my opinion as reliable word. Try installing a copy
    yourself, there are trial versions available for some versions of Windows.
    Try http://www.microsoft.com. After all, we'd all look pretty silly
    talking about things like operating systems without using them and
    experiencing them ourselves right?

    </sarc>

    I can't believe that when I pointed out some issues with the distribution
    I particularly like, you pretty much said "Silly boy!" and told me to pick
    another distribution. Even after years of extolling the virtues of Linux,
    constantly promoting it to be free, easy to use, easy to install, better
    than sliced bread, I encounter problems doing pretty minor things and you
    blame me for it not working. Makes me feel like an idiot, and pretty
    resentful towards Linux in general.

    --
    Regards,

    Waylon Kenning.

    "Why should it be so difficult for us to admit we are wrong when there is
    nothing more helpful to resolving a problem than doing so?"
     
    Waylon Kenning, Mar 23, 2006
    #20
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