Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit - Floppy drive driver issue

Discussion in 'Windows 64bit' started by LDJ, Oct 31, 2009.

  1. LDJ

    LDJ Guest

    Hello!

    I have been running Windows 7 build 7100 since it was released to the
    public to try out. It has been running without problems, so I bought,
    and installed the just released final version. However, I have found
    that I can't format floppy disks, with the newly installed OS.

    At first I thought that my floppy drive had gone bad, but after having
    replaced the drive, with a drive from my second PC, and another drive
    that I have in stock :) as well as a new cable, I have come to the
    conclusion that the problem is related to the OS.

    In order to try to find the reason for the issue, I did a clean
    installation of both WinXP64 and Vista x64. The problem didn't occur
    when those OS'es were installed.

    I even did a clean install of build 7100, to see if the problem was
    there when I had that version installed. I found that the issue was
    there too, but that I apparently hadn't noticed it :)

    I know that floppy disks aren't used much these days, but I find a
    bootable diskette useful if I want to make a Ghost image, flash a Bios,
    or disks for adding "F6 drivers" when/if I install WinXP64 or Vista etc.

    I would like to know if the issue is related to my system only, AMD
    "Dragon" platform :) or it's a common problem.

    My system:

    Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit

    Processor AMD Phenom II X4 940 BE
    Motherboard Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-DS4H
    RAM 2x2048 MB DDR2 SDRAM 1066 MHz OCZ
    GFX Club 3D Radeon PCI-E HD4870 Extreme OC 1GB
    Hard-Disk WD Caviar Black WD1001FALS
    Sony Floppy drive 1.44MB
    PSU Thermaltake Toughpower 750W

    Kind Regards
    LDJ
    LDJ, Oct 31, 2009
    #1
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  2. LDJ

    Dennis Pack Guest

    LDJ:
    I have Win-7 Enterprise x64 and Professional x64 running without a
    floppy drives installed so for testing I had to use a USB floppy. Both
    systems are RTM not beta and format floppies without problems. One thing
    that I noticed that when formatting a floppy there was about a 15-20 delay
    from the format request and getting the format window, possibly caused by
    the USB floppy drive. What you may try is go into Device Manager delete the
    floppy controller and click delete files, reboot the system to reinstall the
    controller. Or another possibility is a stunt that I've done inadvertently
    when installing the floppy drive is reverse the cable so that pin 1 isn't
    aligned on the MB & floppy drive, but you said that the drive works on
    different operating systems so that shouldn't be the problem. Have a great
    day.

    --
    Dennis Pack
    Win-7 Enterprise x64, Win-7 Professional x64.
    "LDJ" <> wrote in message
    news:u$...
    > Hello!
    >
    > I have been running Windows 7 build 7100 since it was released to the
    > public to try out. It has been running without problems, so I bought, and
    > installed the just released final version. However, I have found that I
    > can't format floppy disks, with the newly installed OS.
    >
    > At first I thought that my floppy drive had gone bad, but after having
    > replaced the drive, with a drive from my second PC, and another drive that
    > I have in stock :) as well as a new cable, I have come to the conclusion
    > that the problem is related to the OS.
    >
    > In order to try to find the reason for the issue, I did a clean
    > installation of both WinXP64 and Vista x64. The problem didn't occur when
    > those OS'es were installed.
    >
    > I even did a clean install of build 7100, to see if the problem was there
    > when I had that version installed. I found that the issue was there too,
    > but that I apparently hadn't noticed it :)
    >
    > I know that floppy disks aren't used much these days, but I find a
    > bootable diskette useful if I want to make a Ghost image, flash a Bios, or
    > disks for adding "F6 drivers" when/if I install WinXP64 or Vista etc.
    >
    > I would like to know if the issue is related to my system only, AMD
    > "Dragon" platform :) or it's a common problem.
    >
    > My system:
    >
    > Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit
    >
    > Processor AMD Phenom II X4 940 BE
    > Motherboard Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-DS4H
    > RAM 2x2048 MB DDR2 SDRAM 1066 MHz OCZ
    > GFX Club 3D Radeon PCI-E HD4870 Extreme OC 1GB
    > Hard-Disk WD Caviar Black WD1001FALS
    > Sony Floppy drive 1.44MB
    > PSU Thermaltake Toughpower 750W
    >
    > Kind Regards
    > LDJ
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
    > signature database 4561 (20091031) __________
    >
    > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
    >
    > http://www.eset.com
    >
    >
    >



    __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4561 (20091031) __________

    The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

    http://www.eset.com
    Dennis Pack, Oct 31, 2009
    #2
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  3. LDJ

    Carlos Guest

    LDJ,
    You are not alone.
    I started having issues with floppy drives ever since I switched to AMD
    motherboards. First a 790FX one and now a 770.
    Couldn't figure out the root cause and I also swapped drives and cables.
    I finally gave up and removed the floppy drive for good.
    All I use now is an MS-DOS USB pen drive that comes in handy for BIOS
    flashing and putting "F6" drivers.
    Please note that neither Vista nor Win 7 need floppies any more for the F6
    thing.

    Carlos

    "LDJ" wrote:

    > Hello!
    >
    > I have been running Windows 7 build 7100 since it was released to the
    > public to try out. It has been running without problems, so I bought,
    > and installed the just released final version. However, I have found
    > that I can't format floppy disks, with the newly installed OS.
    >
    > At first I thought that my floppy drive had gone bad, but after having
    > replaced the drive, with a drive from my second PC, and another drive
    > that I have in stock :) as well as a new cable, I have come to the
    > conclusion that the problem is related to the OS.
    >
    > In order to try to find the reason for the issue, I did a clean
    > installation of both WinXP64 and Vista x64. The problem didn't occur
    > when those OS'es were installed.
    >
    > I even did a clean install of build 7100, to see if the problem was
    > there when I had that version installed. I found that the issue was
    > there too, but that I apparently hadn't noticed it :)
    >
    > I know that floppy disks aren't used much these days, but I find a
    > bootable diskette useful if I want to make a Ghost image, flash a Bios,
    > or disks for adding "F6 drivers" when/if I install WinXP64 or Vista etc.
    >
    > I would like to know if the issue is related to my system only, AMD
    > "Dragon" platform :) or it's a common problem.
    >
    > My system:
    >
    > Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit
    >
    > Processor AMD Phenom II X4 940 BE
    > Motherboard Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-DS4H
    > RAM 2x2048 MB DDR2 SDRAM 1066 MHz OCZ
    > GFX Club 3D Radeon PCI-E HD4870 Extreme OC 1GB
    > Hard-Disk WD Caviar Black WD1001FALS
    > Sony Floppy drive 1.44MB
    > PSU Thermaltake Toughpower 750W
    >
    > Kind Regards
    > LDJ
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > .
    >
    Carlos, Nov 1, 2009
    #3
  4. LDJ

    G. Morgan Guest

    On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 23:59:45 +0100, LDJ <> wrote:

    >I would like to know if the issue is related to my system only, AMD
    >"Dragon" platform :) or it's a common problem.



    Good question. I have not used a floppy in years, I wonder if Win7 supports
    it too. Have you tried formatting it in XP mode?
    G. Morgan, Nov 1, 2009
    #4
  5. On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 23:59:45 +0100, LDJ <> wrote:

    >Hello!
    >
    >I have been running Windows 7 build 7100 since it was released to the
    >public to try out. It has been running without problems, so I bought,
    >and installed the just released final version. However, I have found
    >that I can't format floppy disks, with the newly installed OS.
    >
    >At first I thought that my floppy drive had gone bad, but after having
    >replaced the drive, with a drive from my second PC, and another drive
    >that I have in stock :) as well as a new cable, I have come to the
    >conclusion that the problem is related to the OS.
    >
    >In order to try to find the reason for the issue, I did a clean
    >installation of both WinXP64 and Vista x64. The problem didn't occur
    >when those OS'es were installed.
    >
    >I even did a clean install of build 7100, to see if the problem was
    >there when I had that version installed. I found that the issue was
    >there too, but that I apparently hadn't noticed it :)
    >
    >I know that floppy disks aren't used much these days, but I find a
    >bootable diskette useful if I want to make a Ghost image, flash a Bios,
    >or disks for adding "F6 drivers" when/if I install WinXP64 or Vista etc.
    >
    >I would like to know if the issue is related to my system only, AMD
    >"Dragon" platform :) or it's a common problem.
    >
    >My system:
    >
    >Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit
    >
    >Processor AMD Phenom II X4 940 BE
    >Motherboard Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-DS4H
    >RAM 2x2048 MB DDR2 SDRAM 1066 MHz OCZ
    >GFX Club 3D Radeon PCI-E HD4870 Extreme OC 1GB
    >Hard-Disk WD Caviar Black WD1001FALS
    >Sony Floppy drive 1.44MB
    >PSU Thermaltake Toughpower 750W
    >
    >Kind Regards
    >LDJ
    >


    I've done both quick formats and a full format on a floppy using Windows 7 Prof
    64-bit doing a "custom install" after running Windows XP Prof (32 bit). I note
    that there is a floppy disk driver in the system that seems to have been
    produced by Microsoft.
    --ron
    Ron Rosenfeld, Nov 1, 2009
    #5
  6. LDJ

    Paul Russell Guest

    and you made sure things are setup / working correctly in BIOS?

    sometimes floppy settings are disabled or get reset ..

    also if this is USB floppy a) enable legacy mode in bios and b) sometimes
    eject / re-insert the floppy will make a difference.

    B is important if you have the Virtual XP stuff installed.

    --
    thanks
    ..paul

    /*++

    Paul Russell

    --*/

    "LDJ" <> wrote in message
    news:u$...
    > Hello!
    >
    > I have been running Windows 7 build 7100 since it was released to the
    > public to try out. It has been running without problems, so I bought, and
    > installed the just released final version. However, I have found that I
    > can't format floppy disks, with the newly installed OS.
    >
    > At first I thought that my floppy drive had gone bad, but after having
    > replaced the drive, with a drive from my second PC, and another drive that
    > I have in stock :) as well as a new cable, I have come to the conclusion
    > that the problem is related to the OS.
    >
    > In order to try to find the reason for the issue, I did a clean
    > installation of both WinXP64 and Vista x64. The problem didn't occur when
    > those OS'es were installed.
    >
    > I even did a clean install of build 7100, to see if the problem was there
    > when I had that version installed. I found that the issue was there too,
    > but that I apparently hadn't noticed it :)
    >
    > I know that floppy disks aren't used much these days, but I find a
    > bootable diskette useful if I want to make a Ghost image, flash a Bios, or
    > disks for adding "F6 drivers" when/if I install WinXP64 or Vista etc.
    >
    > I would like to know if the issue is related to my system only, AMD
    > "Dragon" platform :) or it's a common problem.
    >
    > My system:
    >
    > Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit
    >
    > Processor AMD Phenom II X4 940 BE
    > Motherboard Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-DS4H
    > RAM 2x2048 MB DDR2 SDRAM 1066 MHz OCZ
    > GFX Club 3D Radeon PCI-E HD4870 Extreme OC 1GB
    > Hard-Disk WD Caviar Black WD1001FALS
    > Sony Floppy drive 1.44MB
    > PSU Thermaltake Toughpower 750W
    >
    > Kind Regards
    > LDJ
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Paul Russell, Nov 1, 2009
    #6
  7. LDJ

    Fierce Guppy Guest

    "LDJ" <> wrote in message
    news:u$...
    > Hello!
    >
    > I have been running Windows 7 build 7100 since it was released to the
    > public to try out. It has been running without problems, so I bought, and
    > installed the just released final version. However, I have found that I
    > can't format floppy disks, with the newly installed OS.
    >
    > At first I thought that my floppy drive had gone bad, but after having
    > replaced the drive, with a drive from my second PC, and another drive that
    > I have in stock :) as well as a new cable, I have come to the conclusion
    > that the problem is related to the OS.


    hmmm... My PC is running W7 Ultimate 64-bit (OEM). The motherboard has an
    Intel X58 chipset and there is a Sony floppy drive attached to the board's
    34-pin connector that works as it should. You might have a driver/chipset
    issue. Pretty tricky one, that.

    Oh lordy lordy! My ample collection of 3.5" 1.44MB useable diskettes has
    whittled away over the years to a mere two useable diskettes. Floppy rot.
    They all die from it sooner or later.

    Tony

    --
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    email: anthony,neville@paradise,net,nz
    Fierce Guppy, Nov 1, 2009
    #7
  8. LDJ

    LDJ Guest

    Hello Tony!

    Fierce Guppy wrote:
    > "LDJ" <> wrote in message
    > news:u$...


    >> I have been running Windows 7 build 7100 since it was released to the
    >> public to try out. It has been running without problems, so I bought,
    >> and installed the just released final version. However, I have found
    >> that I can't format floppy disks, with the newly installed OS.


    > hmmm... My PC is running W7 Ultimate 64-bit (OEM). The motherboard
    > has an Intel X58 chipset and there is a Sony floppy drive attached to
    > the board's 34-pin connector that works as it should. You might have a
    > driver/chipset issue. Pretty tricky one, that.


    As your system, based on a different chipset, with a similar floppy
    drive connected to the onboard crtl. works, I think the issue is related
    to the combination of my AMD chipset (RS780D with integrated Radeon HD
    3300 graphics which I have disabled) and the Windows 7 64bit OS.

    I have had clean installations of both WinXP64 and Vista64 running,
    where the floppy drive worked without issues.

    The first thing I do, after having installed, and activated, a new OS,
    is to make a Ghost image of the clean installation, and save the image
    for future use. It wasn't much trouble to restore the images, in order
    to test for the problem.

    I probably wouldn't ever have discovered the problem, if it wasn't for
    the fact that I downloaded a new BIOS version for my second PC, from my
    running Window 7 machine, and copied the BIOS to a floppy diskette.

    I thought that everything was fine, until I had flashed the BIOS,
    rebooted the computer, and got a hair raising msg. about a corrupted
    BIOS, when the machine woke up :) I am still surprised that it didn't
    die totally :)

    > Oh lordy lordy! My ample collection of 3.5" 1.44MB useable diskettes
    > has whittled away over the years to a mere two useable diskettes.
    > Floppy rot. They all die from it sooner or later.


    My collection is on the loft. When I go, the inheritors can throw it out
    :)

    Thanks for taking the time to test for the issue, and thanks to the rest
    of you who replied to my msg.


    Kind Regards
    Leif Dahl-Jensen
    AKA LDJ
    LDJ, Nov 1, 2009
    #8
  9. I don't think there is a problem with Win 7 and floppy drives but the
    default setting in Win 7 for drives without media to not be displayed.

    I have an AMD 770. With Win 7 default settings neither an A: drive is
    displayed nor and E: drive, my optical drive. When you insert a floppy
    Win 7 doesn't scan it and show A: drive, but if you "Open" the computer
    it's shown under removable drives and the A: drive can be opened from
    there. I have no problem reading, writing, or formatting the floppy then.

    You can change the setting in Windows Explorer to display all drives if
    you so desire.


    Carlos wrote:
    > LDJ,
    > You are not alone.
    > I started having issues with floppy drives ever since I switched to AMD
    > motherboards. First a 790FX one and now a 770.
    > Couldn't figure out the root cause and I also swapped drives and cables.
    > I finally gave up and removed the floppy drive for good.
    > All I use now is an MS-DOS USB pen drive that comes in handy for BIOS
    > flashing and putting "F6" drivers.
    > Please note that neither Vista nor Win 7 need floppies any more for the F6
    > thing.
    >
    > Carlos
    >
    > "LDJ" wrote:
    >
    >> Hello!
    >>
    >> I have been running Windows 7 build 7100 since it was released to the
    >> public to try out. It has been running without problems, so I bought,
    >> and installed the just released final version. However, I have found
    >> that I can't format floppy disks, with the newly installed OS.
    >>
    >> At first I thought that my floppy drive had gone bad, but after having
    >> replaced the drive, with a drive from my second PC, and another drive
    >> that I have in stock :) as well as a new cable, I have come to the
    >> conclusion that the problem is related to the OS.
    >>
    >> In order to try to find the reason for the issue, I did a clean
    >> installation of both WinXP64 and Vista x64. The problem didn't occur
    >> when those OS'es were installed.
    >>
    >> I even did a clean install of build 7100, to see if the problem was
    >> there when I had that version installed. I found that the issue was
    >> there too, but that I apparently hadn't noticed it :)
    >>
    >> I know that floppy disks aren't used much these days, but I find a
    >> bootable diskette useful if I want to make a Ghost image, flash a Bios,
    >> or disks for adding "F6 drivers" when/if I install WinXP64 or Vista etc.
    >>
    >> I would like to know if the issue is related to my system only, AMD
    >> "Dragon" platform :) or it's a common problem.
    >>
    >> My system:
    >>
    >> Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit
    >>
    >> Processor AMD Phenom II X4 940 BE
    >> Motherboard Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-DS4H
    >> RAM 2x2048 MB DDR2 SDRAM 1066 MHz OCZ
    >> GFX Club 3D Radeon PCI-E HD4870 Extreme OC 1GB
    >> Hard-Disk WD Caviar Black WD1001FALS
    >> Sony Floppy drive 1.44MB
    >> PSU Thermaltake Toughpower 750W
    >>
    >> Kind Regards
    >> LDJ
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> .
    >>
    Bobby Johnson, Nov 1, 2009
    #9
  10. LDJ

    R. C. White Guest

    Hi, LDJ.

    You didn't say HOW you are trying to format a floppy in Win7.

    I haven't actually formatted one recently, but the process in Win7 Ultimate
    is the same as in Vista: Start | Computer | Right-click on Drive A: |
    Select Format from the menu. The last choice on the Format menu is still,
    "Create an MS-DOS startup disk".

    Is Home Premium different?

    RC
    --
    R. C. White, CPA
    San Marcos, TX

    Microsoft Windows MVP
    Windows Live Mail 2009 (14.0.8089.0726) in Win7 Ultimate x64

    "LDJ" <> wrote in message
    news:u$...
    > Hello!
    >
    > I have been running Windows 7 build 7100 since it was released to the
    > public to try out. It has been running without problems, so I bought, and
    > installed the just released final version. However, I have found that I
    > can't format floppy disks, with the newly installed OS.
    >
    > At first I thought that my floppy drive had gone bad, but after having
    > replaced the drive, with a drive from my second PC, and another drive that
    > I have in stock :) as well as a new cable, I have come to the conclusion
    > that the problem is related to the OS.
    >
    > In order to try to find the reason for the issue, I did a clean
    > installation of both WinXP64 and Vista x64. The problem didn't occur when
    > those OS'es were installed.
    >
    > I even did a clean install of build 7100, to see if the problem was there
    > when I had that version installed. I found that the issue was there too,
    > but that I apparently hadn't noticed it :)
    >
    > I know that floppy disks aren't used much these days, but I find a
    > bootable diskette useful if I want to make a Ghost image, flash a Bios, or
    > disks for adding "F6 drivers" when/if I install WinXP64 or Vista etc.
    >
    > I would like to know if the issue is related to my system only, AMD
    > "Dragon" platform :) or it's a common problem.
    >
    > My system:
    >
    > Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit
    >
    > Processor AMD Phenom II X4 940 BE
    > Motherboard Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-DS4H
    > RAM 2x2048 MB DDR2 SDRAM 1066 MHz OCZ
    > GFX Club 3D Radeon PCI-E HD4870 Extreme OC 1GB
    > Hard-Disk WD Caviar Black WD1001FALS
    > Sony Floppy drive 1.44MB
    > PSU Thermaltake Toughpower 750W
    >
    > Kind Regards
    > LDJ
    R. C. White, Nov 2, 2009
    #10
  11. LDJ

    Carlos Guest

    Bobby,
    I am not blaming neither AMD nor Win 7 for my floppy drive woes.
    :)
    I was just describing my issue which had many intersections with LDJ's one.
    Finally, I did what physicians do when they can't fix something in your
    body: extracted the bad part and not replaced it with anything.
    Have a nice day.
    :)
    Carlos


    "Bobby Johnson" wrote:

    > I don't think there is a problem with Win 7 and floppy drives but the
    > default setting in Win 7 for drives without media to not be displayed.
    >
    > I have an AMD 770. With Win 7 default settings neither an A: drive is
    > displayed nor and E: drive, my optical drive. When you insert a floppy
    > Win 7 doesn't scan it and show A: drive, but if you "Open" the computer
    > it's shown under removable drives and the A: drive can be opened from
    > there. I have no problem reading, writing, or formatting the floppy then.
    >
    > You can change the setting in Windows Explorer to display all drives if
    > you so desire.
    >
    >
    > Carlos wrote:
    > > LDJ,
    > > You are not alone.
    > > I started having issues with floppy drives ever since I switched to AMD
    > > motherboards. First a 790FX one and now a 770.
    > > Couldn't figure out the root cause and I also swapped drives and cables.
    > > I finally gave up and removed the floppy drive for good.
    > > All I use now is an MS-DOS USB pen drive that comes in handy for BIOS
    > > flashing and putting "F6" drivers.
    > > Please note that neither Vista nor Win 7 need floppies any more for the F6
    > > thing.
    > >
    > > Carlos
    > >
    > > "LDJ" wrote:
    > >
    > >> Hello!
    > >>
    > >> I have been running Windows 7 build 7100 since it was released to the
    > >> public to try out. It has been running without problems, so I bought,
    > >> and installed the just released final version. However, I have found
    > >> that I can't format floppy disks, with the newly installed OS.
    > >>
    > >> At first I thought that my floppy drive had gone bad, but after having
    > >> replaced the drive, with a drive from my second PC, and another drive
    > >> that I have in stock :) as well as a new cable, I have come to the
    > >> conclusion that the problem is related to the OS.
    > >>
    > >> In order to try to find the reason for the issue, I did a clean
    > >> installation of both WinXP64 and Vista x64. The problem didn't occur
    > >> when those OS'es were installed.
    > >>
    > >> I even did a clean install of build 7100, to see if the problem was
    > >> there when I had that version installed. I found that the issue was
    > >> there too, but that I apparently hadn't noticed it :)
    > >>
    > >> I know that floppy disks aren't used much these days, but I find a
    > >> bootable diskette useful if I want to make a Ghost image, flash a Bios,
    > >> or disks for adding "F6 drivers" when/if I install WinXP64 or Vista etc.
    > >>
    > >> I would like to know if the issue is related to my system only, AMD
    > >> "Dragon" platform :) or it's a common problem.
    > >>
    > >> My system:
    > >>
    > >> Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit
    > >>
    > >> Processor AMD Phenom II X4 940 BE
    > >> Motherboard Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-DS4H
    > >> RAM 2x2048 MB DDR2 SDRAM 1066 MHz OCZ
    > >> GFX Club 3D Radeon PCI-E HD4870 Extreme OC 1GB
    > >> Hard-Disk WD Caviar Black WD1001FALS
    > >> Sony Floppy drive 1.44MB
    > >> PSU Thermaltake Toughpower 750W
    > >>
    > >> Kind Regards
    > >> LDJ
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> .
    > >>

    > .
    >
    Carlos, Nov 2, 2009
    #11
  12. So, you're they guy that did a laminectomy on me?

    Carlos wrote:
    > Bobby,
    > I am not blaming neither AMD nor Win 7 for my floppy drive woes.
    > :)
    > I was just describing my issue which had many intersections with LDJ's one.
    > Finally, I did what physicians do when they can't fix something in your
    > body: extracted the bad part and not replaced it with anything.
    > Have a nice day.
    > :)
    > Carlos
    >
    >
    > "Bobby Johnson" wrote:
    >
    >> I don't think there is a problem with Win 7 and floppy drives but the
    >> default setting in Win 7 for drives without media to not be displayed.
    >>
    >> I have an AMD 770. With Win 7 default settings neither an A: drive is
    >> displayed nor and E: drive, my optical drive. When you insert a floppy
    >> Win 7 doesn't scan it and show A: drive, but if you "Open" the computer
    >> it's shown under removable drives and the A: drive can be opened from
    >> there. I have no problem reading, writing, or formatting the floppy then.
    >>
    >> You can change the setting in Windows Explorer to display all drives if
    >> you so desire.
    >>
    >>
    >> Carlos wrote:
    >>> LDJ,
    >>> You are not alone.
    >>> I started having issues with floppy drives ever since I switched to AMD
    >>> motherboards. First a 790FX one and now a 770.
    >>> Couldn't figure out the root cause and I also swapped drives and cables.
    >>> I finally gave up and removed the floppy drive for good.
    >>> All I use now is an MS-DOS USB pen drive that comes in handy for BIOS
    >>> flashing and putting "F6" drivers.
    >>> Please note that neither Vista nor Win 7 need floppies any more for the F6
    >>> thing.
    >>>
    >>> Carlos
    >>>
    >>> "LDJ" wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Hello!
    >>>>
    >>>> I have been running Windows 7 build 7100 since it was released to the
    >>>> public to try out. It has been running without problems, so I bought,
    >>>> and installed the just released final version. However, I have found
    >>>> that I can't format floppy disks, with the newly installed OS.
    >>>>
    >>>> At first I thought that my floppy drive had gone bad, but after having
    >>>> replaced the drive, with a drive from my second PC, and another drive
    >>>> that I have in stock :) as well as a new cable, I have come to the
    >>>> conclusion that the problem is related to the OS.
    >>>>
    >>>> In order to try to find the reason for the issue, I did a clean
    >>>> installation of both WinXP64 and Vista x64. The problem didn't occur
    >>>> when those OS'es were installed.
    >>>>
    >>>> I even did a clean install of build 7100, to see if the problem was
    >>>> there when I had that version installed. I found that the issue was
    >>>> there too, but that I apparently hadn't noticed it :)
    >>>>
    >>>> I know that floppy disks aren't used much these days, but I find a
    >>>> bootable diskette useful if I want to make a Ghost image, flash a Bios,
    >>>> or disks for adding "F6 drivers" when/if I install WinXP64 or Vista etc.
    >>>>
    >>>> I would like to know if the issue is related to my system only, AMD
    >>>> "Dragon" platform :) or it's a common problem.
    >>>>
    >>>> My system:
    >>>>
    >>>> Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit
    >>>>
    >>>> Processor AMD Phenom II X4 940 BE
    >>>> Motherboard Gigabyte GA-MA790GP-DS4H
    >>>> RAM 2x2048 MB DDR2 SDRAM 1066 MHz OCZ
    >>>> GFX Club 3D Radeon PCI-E HD4870 Extreme OC 1GB
    >>>> Hard-Disk WD Caviar Black WD1001FALS
    >>>> Sony Floppy drive 1.44MB
    >>>> PSU Thermaltake Toughpower 750W
    >>>>
    >>>> Kind Regards
    >>>> LDJ
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> .
    >>>>

    >> .
    >>
    Bobby Johnson, Nov 2, 2009
    #12
  13. LDJ

    LDJ Guest

    Hello R.C.White!

    R. C. White wrote:
    > You didn't say HOW you are trying to format a floppy in Win7.


    > I haven't actually formatted one recently, but the process in Win7
    > Ultimate is the same as in Vista: Start | Computer | Right-click on
    > Drive A: | Select Format from the menu. The last choice on the Format
    > menu is still, "Create an MS-DOS startup disk".


    > Is Home Premium different?



    The formatting process is the same for Windows 7 Home Premium, as it was
    for build 7100 which is the Win7 ultimate version AFAIK. Formatting a
    floppy disk from the desktop, or formatting it from an elevated CMD
    prompt, ends with errors.

    It's not a formatting problem only. It's not possible to write to an
    already formatted diskette, without getting CRC errors.

    I have tried to boot to a failsafe cmd prompt, and tested formatting
    from there, with no luck. I guess it's the same drivers that are being
    used. Formatting a floppy disk from Virtual PC 2007 running an OS/2 Warp
    4 machine doesn't work neither :)

    I have booted into DOS, from a bootable memomrystick, and there
    formatted a floppy disk without problems, just to make sure that my HW
    still works.

    If Microsoft doesn't release a fix, I'll use the drive for booting
    Ghost, when/if I want to make/restore a Ghost image. I can disable the
    drive in device manager when I am running Windows 7.


    Kind Regards
    LDJ
    LDJ, Nov 2, 2009
    #13
  14. LDJ

    R. C. White Guest

    Hi, LDJ.

    >> I haven't actually formatted one recently,


    OK. I just formatted a 3.5" floppy - and it went perfectly. ;<)

    First, I had Windows Explorer show me the contents of Drive A:. Then I
    shuffled in a couple of other diskettes until I found one that did not have
    contents I didn't mind losing. Then, still in Windows Explorer, I
    right-clicked on Drive A: (in the left-hand pane, the Navigation Pane -
    click Organize | Layout if you are not sure what I'm talking about), then
    clicked Format and chose to Create an MS-DOS startup disk, then clicked
    Start. I didn't time it, but it took a couple of minutes. Then I checked
    the contents and saw the expected MS-DOS files. No, I haven't actually
    tried to boot from that floppy - haven't booted from any floppy in years -
    but I'm confident that it would.

    > It's not a formatting problem only. It's not possible to write to an
    > already formatted diskette, without getting CRC errors.


    Then I Saved THIS thread to Drive A:, edited it with Notepad, and am
    attaching the edited file to THIS message. No CRC or other errors at any
    point.

    As it says in my Sig, I'm running Win7 Ultimate x64, the RTM version 7600
    from TechNet that I installed in August. My floppy disk drive is a very old
    (15 years?) "combination" drive, with both 5.25" and 3.5" in a single
    half-height internal case. (Remember those?) The only floppy driver is
    what is built into the mobo and Win7.

    What did you do - step by step? At what step did it fail? What error
    message(s) (VERBATIM) did you see?

    RC
    --
    R. C. White, CPA
    San Marcos, TX

    Microsoft Windows MVP
    Windows Live Mail 2009 (14.0.8089.0726) in Win7 Ultimate x64

    "LDJ" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hello R.C.White!
    >
    > R. C. White wrote:
    >> You didn't say HOW you are trying to format a floppy in Win7.

    >
    >> I haven't actually formatted one recently, but the process in Win7
    >> Ultimate is the same as in Vista: Start | Computer | Right-click on
    >> Drive A: | Select Format from the menu. The last choice on the Format
    >> menu is still, "Create an MS-DOS startup disk".

    >
    >> Is Home Premium different?

    >
    >
    > The formatting process is the same for Windows 7 Home Premium, as it was
    > for build 7100 which is the Win7 ultimate version AFAIK. Formatting a
    > floppy disk from the desktop, or formatting it from an elevated CMD
    > prompt, ends with errors.
    >
    > It's not a formatting problem only. It's not possible to write to an
    > already formatted diskette, without getting CRC errors.
    >
    > I have tried to boot to a failsafe cmd prompt, and tested formatting
    > from there, with no luck. I guess it's the same drivers that are being
    > used. Formatting a floppy disk from Virtual PC 2007 running an OS/2 Warp
    > 4 machine doesn't work neither :)
    >
    > I have booted into DOS, from a bootable memomrystick, and there formatted
    > a floppy disk without problems, just to make sure that my HW still works.
    >
    > If Microsoft doesn't release a fix, I'll use the drive for booting Ghost,
    > when/if I want to make/restore a Ghost image. I can disable the drive in
    > device manager when I am running Windows 7.
    >
    >
    > Kind Regards
    > LDJ
    R. C. White, Nov 3, 2009
    #14
  15. LDJ

    R. C. White Guest

    Hi, again, LDJ.

    Well, curiosity got the better of me, so I DID boot from the floppy that I
    made last night. I just set my BIOS to boot from the floppy drive, then
    restarted the computer with the diskette in the drive - and it booted just
    fine. DIR A: worked as expected; so did DIR C: to read the first partition
    on the first HDD. I even TYPEd the contents of a file in a folder - er,
    directory!

    First time I've booted MS-DOS, or booted from a floppy, in years! ;<)

    RC
    --
    R. C. White, CPA
    San Marcos, TX

    Microsoft Windows MVP
    Windows Live Mail 2009 (14.0.8089.0726) in Win7 Ultimate x64

    "LDJ" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hello R.C.White!
    >
    > R. C. White wrote:
    >> You didn't say HOW you are trying to format a floppy in Win7.

    >
    >> I haven't actually formatted one recently, but the process in Win7
    >> Ultimate is the same as in Vista: Start | Computer | Right-click on
    >> Drive A: | Select Format from the menu. The last choice on the Format
    >> menu is still, "Create an MS-DOS startup disk".

    >
    >> Is Home Premium different?

    >
    >
    > The formatting process is the same for Windows 7 Home Premium, as it was
    > for build 7100 which is the Win7 ultimate version AFAIK. Formatting a
    > floppy disk from the desktop, or formatting it from an elevated CMD
    > prompt, ends with errors.
    >
    > It's not a formatting problem only. It's not possible to write to an
    > already formatted diskette, without getting CRC errors.
    >
    > I have tried to boot to a failsafe cmd prompt, and tested formatting
    > from there, with no luck. I guess it's the same drivers that are being
    > used. Formatting a floppy disk from Virtual PC 2007 running an OS/2 Warp
    > 4 machine doesn't work neither :)
    >
    > I have booted into DOS, from a bootable memomrystick, and there formatted
    > a floppy disk without problems, just to make sure that my HW still works.
    >
    > If Microsoft doesn't release a fix, I'll use the drive for booting Ghost,
    > when/if I want to make/restore a Ghost image. I can disable the drive in
    > device manager when I am running Windows 7.
    >
    >
    > Kind Regards
    > LDJ
    R. C. White, Nov 3, 2009
    #15
  16. LDJ

    LDJ Guest

    Hello RC!

    R. C. White wrote:
    > Hi, again, LDJ.
    >
    > Well, curiosity got the better of me, so I DID boot from the floppy that
    > I made last night. I just set my BIOS to boot from the floppy drive,
    > then restarted the computer with the diskette in the drive - and it
    > booted just fine. DIR A: worked as expected; so did DIR C: to read the
    > first partition on the first HDD. I even TYPEd the contents of a file
    > in a folder - er, directory!
    >
    > First time I've booted MS-DOS, or booted from a floppy, in years! ;<)
    >
    > RC



    What you did, is what I can't do, or rather what can't be done with my
    system, and the Windows 7 64bit OS / Gigabyte MB with AMD 790GX chipset
    combination.

    I can't format a floppy disk, without getting errors, and thus
    formatting with the option of making a boot diskette can't be done.

    Quick formatting a floppy disk can be done, however the formatting
    process ends up with bad disks, although the process shows a Finished
    message.

    I have a second PC, that has a Gigabyte GA-MA790X-DS4 motherboard with
    an AMD 790X + SB600 Chipset, and a Phenom 9600 CPU. It is running the
    Vista Home Premium 64bit version. It has been running without issues for
    almost 2 years, and I have never seen any problems regarding the TLB
    (Transition Lookaside Buffer) errata. :) Formatting a floppy disk with
    the second PC doesn't give any problems.

    Bye the way, I am one of the persons that have been pleased with Windows
    Vista. People in this newsgroup has provided a lot of solutions for
    setting up the OS.

    I just read that there will be a Windows 7 Service Pack 1 in 2010. I
    hope that it will bring a fix for the issue.

    Link: http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/16243/1/

    I wonder how the C: drive can be read, in a DOS session, booted from a
    floppy drive. I guess it's a ramdrive that has been made when the system
    booted with a Windows start diskette?

    I haven't seen a "combination" drive, with both 5.25" and 3.5" :)
    before, but I have a 5.25" 360kb/1.2mb drive combination on the loft.
    Could come handy if I ever want to restore the PCTools backups I did way
    back, from the 5.25" diskettes that is also on the loft. ROTFL

    Kind Regards
    LDJ
    LDJ, Nov 4, 2009
    #16
  17. Since your problem appears to be rather rare I would not expect
    Microsoft to "fix" something that really doesn't seems to be broken. I
    frequent the Win 7 forum over at TechNet and I have never seen a post
    about floppy formatting problems.

    I think your problem is something with your hardware or a problem with
    one or more system files.


    LDJ wrote:
    >
    > What you did, is what I can't do, or rather what can't be done with my
    > system, and the Windows 7 64bit OS / Gigabyte MB with AMD 790GX chipset
    > combination.
    >
    > I can't format a floppy disk, without getting errors, and thus
    > formatting with the option of making a boot diskette can't be done.
    >
    > Quick formatting a floppy disk can be done, however the formatting
    > process ends up with bad disks, although the process shows a Finished
    > message.
    >
    > I have a second PC, that has a Gigabyte GA-MA790X-DS4 motherboard with
    > an AMD 790X + SB600 Chipset, and a Phenom 9600 CPU. It is running the
    > Vista Home Premium 64bit version. It has been running without issues for
    > almost 2 years, and I have never seen any problems regarding the TLB
    > (Transition Lookaside Buffer) errata. :) Formatting a floppy disk with
    > the second PC doesn't give any problems.
    >
    > Bye the way, I am one of the persons that have been pleased with Windows
    > Vista. People in this newsgroup has provided a lot of solutions for
    > setting up the OS.
    >
    > I just read that there will be a Windows 7 Service Pack 1 in 2010. I
    > hope that it will bring a fix for the issue.
    >
    > Link: http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/16243/1/
    >
    > I wonder how the C: drive can be read, in a DOS session, booted from a
    > floppy drive. I guess it's a ramdrive that has been made when the system
    > booted with a Windows start diskette?
    >
    > I haven't seen a "combination" drive, with both 5.25" and 3.5" :)
    > before, but I have a 5.25" 360kb/1.2mb drive combination on the loft.
    > Could come handy if I ever want to restore the PCTools backups I did way
    > back, from the 5.25" diskettes that is also on the loft. ROTFL
    >
    > Kind Regards
    > LDJ
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Bobby Johnson, Nov 4, 2009
    #17
  18. LDJ

    R. C. White Guest

    Hi, LDJ.

    I agree with Bobby: Something in your specific hardware is causing your
    inability to format a floppy.

    For the record, I built my only computer (I've always had only one computer
    at a time) 3 years ago, when we finished the Vista beta and got the free RTM
    DVD. I ran Vista Ultimate x64 until the Win7 pre-beta a year ago and
    quickly transitioned to Win7 Ultimate x64 - and seldom even boot into Vista
    anymore.

    My computer's main components:
    EPoX MF570sli mainboard with 08/01/06 BIOS
    (My 3rd EPoX mobo, but EPoX went out of business a couple of years ago.)
    nVidia nForce 570 sli chipset
    AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+ CPU (It was fast 3 years ago!)
    4 GB OCZ PC-6400 DDR2 RAM
    4 SATA HDDs: 200 GB Maxtor; 1 GB Seagate; 2 300 GB Seagates in RAID 1
    2 DVD Burners (Pioneer and LG w/LightScribe)
    1 very old combination floppy drive (because of mismatched connectors on
    cable, I can connect only one (3.5" or 5.25") at a time)

    > I wonder how the C: drive can be read, in a DOS session, booted from a
    > floppy drive. I guess it's a ramdrive that has been made when the system
    > booted with a Windows start diskette?


    MS-DOS has been able to read hard drives since its beginning. After all,
    the "D" in MS-DOS (and PC-DOS) is for "Disk", not Diskette. ;^} And the
    hard disk is C: because A: and B: were at first reserved for the two
    floppies. DOS can't read the Windows Registry, so it doesn't know what
    letters have been assigned to other volumes on the HDs, but it can always
    find Drive C:. No, it's not a ram drive. I used ram drives for years, back
    when HDs were small and slow, but haven't needed one in a long time. I
    understand that some Windows Setup programs used ram drives (maybe still
    do?), but I seldom even hear them mentioned nowadays. Remember TSR
    (Terminate but Stay Resident) applications? They were some of the first
    methods of multi-tasking.

    > I am one of the persons that have been pleased with Windows Vista.


    Me, too. ;<)

    I've been computing since the first TRS-80 (before they called it Model I)
    in December 1977, so I've been through a lot of computers, one machine at a
    time. ;^}

    RC
    --
    R. C. White, CPA
    San Marcos, TX

    Microsoft Windows MVP
    Windows Live Mail 2009 (14.0.8089.0726) in Win7 Ultimate x64

    "LDJ" <> wrote in message
    news:uV#...
    > Hello RC!
    >
    > R. C. White wrote:
    >> Hi, again, LDJ.
    >>
    >> Well, curiosity got the better of me, so I DID boot from the floppy that
    >> I made last night. I just set my BIOS to boot from the floppy drive,
    >> then restarted the computer with the diskette in the drive - and it
    >> booted just fine. DIR A: worked as expected; so did DIR C: to read the
    >> first partition on the first HDD. I even TYPEd the contents of a file in
    >> a folder - er, directory!
    >>
    >> First time I've booted MS-DOS, or booted from a floppy, in years! ;<)
    >>
    >> RC

    >
    >
    > What you did, is what I can't do, or rather what can't be done with my
    > system, and the Windows 7 64bit OS / Gigabyte MB with AMD 790GX chipset
    > combination.
    >
    > I can't format a floppy disk, without getting errors, and thus formatting
    > with the option of making a boot diskette can't be done.
    >
    > Quick formatting a floppy disk can be done, however the formatting process
    > ends up with bad disks, although the process shows a Finished message.
    >
    > I have a second PC, that has a Gigabyte GA-MA790X-DS4 motherboard with an
    > AMD 790X + SB600 Chipset, and a Phenom 9600 CPU. It is running the Vista
    > Home Premium 64bit version. It has been running without issues for almost
    > 2 years, and I have never seen any problems regarding the TLB (Transition
    > Lookaside Buffer) errata. :) Formatting a floppy disk with the second PC
    > doesn't give any problems.
    >
    > Bye the way, I am one of the persons that have been pleased with Windows
    > Vista. People in this newsgroup has provided a lot of solutions for
    > setting up the OS.
    >
    > I just read that there will be a Windows 7 Service Pack 1 in 2010. I hope
    > that it will bring a fix for the issue.
    >
    > Link: http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/16243/1/
    >
    > I wonder how the C: drive can be read, in a DOS session, booted from a
    > floppy drive. I guess it's a ramdrive that has been made when the system
    > booted with a Windows start diskette?
    >
    > I haven't seen a "combination" drive, with both 5.25" and 3.5" :) before,
    > but I have a 5.25" 360kb/1.2mb drive combination on the loft. Could come
    > handy if I ever want to restore the PCTools backups I did way back, from
    > the 5.25" diskettes that is also on the loft. ROTFL
    >
    > Kind Regards
    > LDJ
    R. C. White, Nov 4, 2009
    #18
  19. LDJ

    LDJ Guest

    Hello RC!

    R. C. White wrote:

    > I agree with Bobby: Something in your specific hardware is causing your
    > inability to format a floppy.


    That's what I've been trying to suggest for some time. :)
    It's no big issue, now that I'm aware of the problem, so I don't flash
    with a BIOS stored on a floppy disk, copied from Windows 7

    If I Google for the issue, I can see that I share the Problem with a few
    others:

    http://windows7forums.com/windows-7-installation-upgrade/24226-windows-7-corrupts-floppy-disk.html

    http://social.technet.microsoft.com...l/thread/0d33dd3d-d18c-4e03-b1ca-3fa1cd77cac6



    > For the record, I built my only computer (I've always had only one
    > computer at a time) 3 years ago, when we finished the Vista beta and got
    > the free RTM DVD. I ran Vista Ultimate x64 until the Win7 pre-beta a
    > year ago and quickly transitioned to Win7 Ultimate x64 - and seldom even
    > boot into Vista anymore.


    My first PC was a Commodore 8088, with 2 x 5.1/4 360kb floppy drives, no
    HD's. That was in 1989 :)

    I started running OS/2 in 1991, and I have been running the various
    versions of OS/2 until the year 2000. I was running BBS and as a Fidonet
    Point on my OS/2 system. If you care, you can see some details about
    Fidonet here: http://www.fidonet.org/inet92_Randy_Bush.txt

    For the fun of it, I have a copy of my OS/2 system, from when it was
    running way back, as a virtual machine in VPC 2007

    I started running Windows XP x64 In January 2004, when the first beta
    was released to the public. Bye the way, I was a moderator on
    PlanetAMD64 for a couple of years.


    >> I wonder how the C: drive can be read, in a DOS session, booted from a
    >> floppy drive. I guess it's a ramdrive that has been made when the
    >> system booted with a Windows start diskette?


    > MS-DOS has been able to read hard drives since its beginning. After
    > all, the "D" in MS-DOS (and PC-DOS) is for "Disk", not Diskette. ;^}



    I have made a VistaPE boot cd (with WinBuilder version 074) in order to
    read the NTFS formatted drives. If it can be done from a DOS boot disk,
    I can save the time it takes for the CD to boot, will you tell me how to
    do it?

    Kind Regards
    LDJ
    LDJ, Nov 4, 2009
    #19
  20. LDJ

    R. C. White Guest

    Hi, LDJ.

    > I have made a VistaPE boot cd (with WinBuilder version 074) in order to
    > read the NTFS formatted drives. If it can be done from a DOS boot disk, I
    > can save the time it takes for the CD to boot, will you tell me how to do
    > it?


    Sorry. I've seen others talk about VistaPE and Bart's PE for years, but
    I've never tried either of them myself. I'm not sure I ever heard of
    WinBuilder. As I said, my little experiment yesterday is the first time
    I've booted into MS-DOS or from a floppy in years.

    RC
    --
    R. C. White, CPA
    San Marcos, TX

    Microsoft Windows MVP
    Windows Live Mail 2009 (14.0.8089.0726) in Win7 Ultimate x64

    "LDJ" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hello RC!
    >
    > R. C. White wrote:
    >
    >> I agree with Bobby: Something in your specific hardware is causing your
    >> inability to format a floppy.

    >
    > That's what I've been trying to suggest for some time. :)
    > It's no big issue, now that I'm aware of the problem, so I don't flash
    > with a BIOS stored on a floppy disk, copied from Windows 7
    >
    > If I Google for the issue, I can see that I share the Problem with a few
    > others:
    >
    > http://windows7forums.com/windows-7-installation-upgrade/24226-windows-7-corrupts-floppy-disk.html
    >
    > http://social.technet.microsoft.com...l/thread/0d33dd3d-d18c-4e03-b1ca-3fa1cd77cac6
    >
    >
    >> For the record, I built my only computer (I've always had only one
    >> computer at a time) 3 years ago, when we finished the Vista beta and got
    >> the free RTM DVD. I ran Vista Ultimate x64 until the Win7 pre-beta a
    >> year ago and quickly transitioned to Win7 Ultimate x64 - and seldom even
    >> boot into Vista anymore.

    >
    > My first PC was a Commodore 8088, with 2 x 5.1/4 360kb floppy drives, no
    > HD's. That was in 1989 :)
    >
    > I started running OS/2 in 1991, and I have been running the various
    > versions of OS/2 until the year 2000. I was running BBS and as a Fidonet
    > Point on my OS/2 system. If you care, you can see some details about
    > Fidonet here: http://www.fidonet.org/inet92_Randy_Bush.txt
    >
    > For the fun of it, I have a copy of my OS/2 system, from when it was
    > running way back, as a virtual machine in VPC 2007
    >
    > I started running Windows XP x64 In January 2004, when the first beta was
    > released to the public. Bye the way, I was a moderator on PlanetAMD64 for
    > a couple of years.
    >
    >
    >>> I wonder how the C: drive can be read, in a DOS session, booted from a
    >>> floppy drive. I guess it's a ramdrive that has been made when the system
    >>> booted with a Windows start diskette?

    >
    >> MS-DOS has been able to read hard drives since its beginning. After all,
    >> the "D" in MS-DOS (and PC-DOS) is for "Disk", not Diskette. ;^}

    >
    >
    > I have made a VistaPE boot cd (with WinBuilder version 074) in order to
    > read the NTFS formatted drives. If it can be done from a DOS boot disk, I
    > can save the time it takes for the CD to boot, will you tell me how to do
    > it?
    >
    > Kind Regards
    > LDJ
    R. C. White, Nov 5, 2009
    #20
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