Will other Camera manufactures follow Sigma's lead, and disclose more info?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by George Preddy, Oct 29, 2003.

  1. Sigma now insists, where enough information can be show the SD-9/10 must be
    listed as...
    "10.2 MP (3.4 MP Red + 3.4 MP Green + 3.4 MP Blue)"

    Will all other Bayer manufactures follow suit and disclose how their colors
    are really formed? For example, the Canon 10D should now be listed as...
    "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue )"

    Or, even more accurately...
    "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue - 1.58 MP Green )"
     
    George Preddy, Oct 29, 2003
    #1
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  2. George Preddy

    Tom Thackrey Guest

    On 28-Oct-2003, "George Preddy" <> wrote:

    > Sigma now insists, where enough information can be show the SD-9/10 must
    > be
    > listed as...
    > "10.2 MP (3.4 MP Red + 3.4 MP Green + 3.4 MP Blue)"
    >
    > Will all other Bayer manufactures follow suit and disclose how their
    > colors
    > are really formed? For example, the Canon 10D should now be listed as...
    > "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue )"
    >
    > Or, even more accurately...
    > "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue - 1.58 MP Green )"


    Probably not, Sigma is to cameras what Gary Coleman is to politics.

    --
    Tom Thackrey
    www.creative-light.com
    tom (at) creative (dash) light (dot) com
    do NOT send email to (it's reserved for spammers)
     
    Tom Thackrey, Oct 29, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. "Tom Thackrey" <> wrote in message
    news:xSFnb.6604$...
    >
    > On 28-Oct-2003, "George Preddy" <> wrote:
    >
    > > Sigma now insists, where enough information can be show the SD-9/10 must
    > > be
    > > listed as...
    > > "10.2 MP (3.4 MP Red + 3.4 MP Green + 3.4 MP Blue)"
    > >
    > > Will all other Bayer manufactures follow suit and disclose how their
    > > colors
    > > are really formed? For example, the Canon 10D should now be listed

    as...
    > > "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue )"
    > >
    > > Or, even more accurately...
    > > "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue - 1.58 MP Green )"

    >
    > Probably not, Sigma is to cameras what Gary Coleman is to politics.


    That is another interesting, facts-based approach to digital photography I
    hadn't considered, thanks so much.



    > tom (at) creative (dash) light (dot) com
    > do NOT send email to (it's reserved for spammers)
     
    George Preddy, Oct 29, 2003
    #3
  4. George Preddy

    Paolo Pizzi Guest

    Tom Thackrey wrote:

    > Probably not, Sigma is to cameras what Gary Coleman is to politics.


    LOL

    Still, I'd rather have a has-been midget for governor
    than a Hitler-admiring groper...
     
    Paolo Pizzi, Oct 29, 2003
    #4
  5. Re: Will other Camera manufactures follow Sigma's lead, and disclosemore info?

    LOL!

    Tom Thackrey wrote:
    snip
    > Probably not, Sigma is to cameras what Gary Coleman is to politics.
    >
     
    Bay Area Dave, Oct 29, 2003
    #5
  6. Re: Will other Camera manufactures follow Sigma's lead, and disclosemore info?

    George Preddy wrote:
    > Sigma now insists, where enough information can be show the SD-9/10 must be
    > listed as...
    > "10.2 MP (3.4 MP Red + 3.4 MP Green + 3.4 MP Blue)"
    >
    > Will all other Bayer manufactures follow suit and disclose how their colors
    > are really formed? For example, the Canon 10D should now be listed as...
    > "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue )"
    >
    > Or, even more accurately...
    > "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue - 1.58 MP Green )"


    George, I really enjoy your pictures and your enthusiasm, but...

    .... when I print your sample pix, my image processing program reads
    something like, "8.5 x 12 inches at 180 ppi." When I print my Oly E20,
    it reads something like, "8.5 x 11.3 inches at 226 ppi." How can this
    be, if your camera has 10.2 MP and mine has only 5?

    Gary Eickmeier
     
    Gary Eickmeier, Oct 29, 2003
    #6
  7. "Gary Eickmeier" <> wrote in message
    news:DRGnb.88555$...
    >
    >
    > George Preddy wrote:
    > > Sigma now insists, where enough information can be show the SD-9/10 must

    be
    > > listed as...
    > > "10.2 MP (3.4 MP Red + 3.4 MP Green + 3.4 MP Blue)"
    > >
    > > Will all other Bayer manufactures follow suit and disclose how their

    colors
    > > are really formed? For example, the Canon 10D should now be listed

    as...
    > > "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue )"
    > >
    > > Or, even more accurately...
    > > "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue - 1.58 MP Green )"

    >
    > George, I really enjoy your pictures and your enthusiasm, but...
    >
    > ... when I print your sample pix, my image processing program reads
    > something like, "8.5 x 12 inches at 180 ppi." When I print my Oly E20,
    > it reads something like, "8.5 x 11.3 inches at 226 ppi." How can this
    > be, if your camera has 10.2 MP and mine has only 5?


    Bayer outputs interpolated files (scaled up) by default.
     
    George Preddy, Oct 29, 2003
    #7
  8. "George Preddy" <> wrote in
    news:bnn6fc$e7h$:

    > Sigma now insists, where enough information can be show the SD-9/10
    > must be listed as...
    > "10.2 MP (3.4 MP Red + 3.4 MP Green + 3.4 MP Blue)"


    If you can't beat 'em with the product, get the marketeers and lawyers
    involved. I guess Sigma doesn't have much to lose.

    If you use r.p.d as a sample audience, the effort failed; it appears that
    you were the only one taken in by this hype, and dozens of folks weren't...
    and are rather offended that their intelligence is being insulted by
    Sigma's marketing department.

    > Will all other Bayer manufactures follow suit and disclose how their
    > colors are really formed? For example, the Canon 10D should now be
    > listed as... "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue )"


    Why? Everyone else but Foveon (well, except Fuji) is all on the same page,
    and the tests confirm this.

    > Or, even more accurately...
    > "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue - 1.58 MP Green )"


    Who on earth would care, other than you, George? Who would buy it, when
    the tests (the objective ones, not the artificial benchmarks designed to
    take advantage of the the quirks of the Foveon design) show that under this
    "improved Sigma" nomenclature, a 6.3MP camera outperforms a 10.2MP one in
    terms of extinction resolution?

    --
    Albert Nurick www.TheDeliciousLife.com
    A guide to the good life
    www.nurick.com in Houston, Texas
     
    Albert Nurick, Oct 29, 2003
    #8
  9. George Preddy

    Azzz1588 Guest

    In article <bnn6fc$e7h$>, "George Preddy"
    <> writes:

    >"10.2 MP (3.4 MP Red + 3.4 MP Green + 3.4 MP Blue)"


    And yet, there are only 3.4 mp to recieve the data.
    Hmmm... Must be new math...................























    "Only a Gentleman can insult me, and a true Gentleman never will..."
     
    Azzz1588, Oct 29, 2003
    #9
  10. "Azzz1588" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <bnn6fc$e7h$>, "George Preddy"
    > <> writes:
    >
    > >"10.2 MP (3.4 MP Red + 3.4 MP Green + 3.4 MP Blue)"

    >
    > And yet, there are only 3.4 mp to recieve the data.
    > Hmmm... Must be new math...................


    How many pixels are needed to perfectly represent 3.4 MP Red + 3.4 MP Green
    + 3.4 MP Blue samples?

    New math indeed.
     
    George Preddy, Oct 29, 2003
    #10
  11. George Preddy

    Rafe B. Guest

    On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 04:13:53 GMT, Albert Nurick <>
    wrote:


    >Why? Everyone else but Foveon (well, except Fuji) is all on the same page,
    >and the tests confirm this.



    Someone on the NPR local station (Boston) was interviewing
    George Guilder today -- that right wing supply-side slut.

    Well, Guilder's really high on Foveon, but he's clearly lacking
    a clue or two. The fanciest word in his vocabulary is "paradigm,"
    which he uses a lot.


    rafe b.
    http://www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    Rafe B., Oct 29, 2003
    #11
  12. George Preddy

    Darrell Guest

    "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    news:bnn6fc$e7h$...
    > Sigma now insists, where enough information can be show the SD-9/10 must

    be
    > listed as...
    > "10.2 MP (3.4 MP Red + 3.4 MP Green + 3.4 MP Blue)"
    >

    Why do you believe that RGB must be in equal values? Do you think film has
    equal values, well film doesn't the fact colour negative films require the
    orange mask is proof. Fuji Reala has a 4th dye layer (light cyan) to improve
    skintones. Many examples that you cite show poor colour balance.

    > Will all other Bayer manufactures follow suit and disclose how their

    colors
    > are really formed? For example, the Canon 10D should now be listed as...
    > "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue )"
    >
    > Or, even more accurately...
    > "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue - 1.58 MP Green )"
    >

    Maybe that would be an interesting idea? Just as film has datasheets with
    their sensitivity curves published, they could show the sensor's curve. But
    one can adjust the histogram of some DSLRs
     
    Darrell, Oct 29, 2003
    #12
  13. George Preddy

    MarkH Guest

    "George Preddy" <> wrote in
    news:bnndg5$ihg$:

    >
    > "Azzz1588" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> In article <bnn6fc$e7h$>, "George Preddy"
    >> <> writes:
    >>
    >> >"10.2 MP (3.4 MP Red + 3.4 MP Green + 3.4 MP Blue)"

    >>
    >> And yet, there are only 3.4 mp to recieve the data.
    >> Hmmm... Must be new math...................

    >
    > How many pixels are needed to perfectly represent 3.4 MP Red + 3.4 MP
    > Green + 3.4 MP Blue samples?
    >
    > New math indeed.


    Hmmm, since each pixel is able to contain up to 48bits normally (16bit per
    colour) then the answer to your question is undoubtedly 3.4M.


    --
    Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
    See my pics at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~markh/
    "There are 10 types of people, those that
    understand binary and those that don't"
     
    MarkH, Oct 29, 2003
    #13
  14. "MarkH" <> wrote in message
    news:bno629$3l0$...
    > "George Preddy" <> wrote in
    > news:bnndg5$ihg$:
    >
    > >
    > > "Azzz1588" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > >> In article <bnn6fc$e7h$>, "George Preddy"
    > >> <> writes:
    > >>
    > >> >"10.2 MP (3.4 MP Red + 3.4 MP Green + 3.4 MP Blue)"
    > >>
    > >> And yet, there are only 3.4 mp to recieve the data.
    > >> Hmmm... Must be new math...................

    > >
    > > How many pixels are needed to perfectly represent 3.4 MP Red + 3.4 MP
    > > Green + 3.4 MP Blue samples?
    > >
    > > New math indeed.

    >
    > Hmmm, since each pixel is able to contain up to 48bits normally (16bit per
    > colour) then the answer to your question is undoubtedly 3.4M.


    So, according to you, exactly a 3.4MP 16-bit TIF. That is the correct
    answer, congrats.
     
    George Preddy, Oct 29, 2003
    #14
  15. George Preddy

    George Kerby Guest

    Re: Will other Camera manufactures follow Sigma's lead, anddisclose more info?

    On 10/28/03 9:20 PM, in article
    6mGnb.378$, "Bay Area Dave"
    <> wrote:

    > LOL!
    >
    > Tom Thackrey wrote:
    > snip
    >> Probably not, Sigma is to cameras what Gary Coleman is to politics.
    >>

    >

    Sigma = smegma
    Sigma sucks


    _______________________________________________________________________________
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    George Kerby, Oct 29, 2003
    #15
  16. "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    news:bnn6fc$e7h$...

    > Will all other Bayer manufactures follow suit and disclose how their

    colors
    > are really formed? For example, the Canon 10D should now be listed as...
    > "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue )"


    The other manufacturers don't pay any attention to Sigma. First of all,
    comparing pixel counts is meaningless between a Foveon sensor and
    a regular CCD or CMOS sensor. Second of all, Sigma is so far down
    the list in terms of units shipped that Canon, Nikon, Sony, don't really
    care what they do. Third, the Foveon based Sigma SLR is a very poor
    camera in terms of picture quality, and apparently the only way Sigma
    can market it is to count pixels; but consumers buying D-SLRs are
    smart enough not to fall for that. Hence the tremendous success of the
    Canon 10D and the Canon 300-D.

    It's really too bad, Foveon has great potential. Their professional
    studio cameras are awesome; I have a picture taken of me with a
    model at Comdex where they were exhibiting in the booth of the
    company I used to work for (National Semiconductor) a few years
    ago; you'd have to go to the Canon professional model to come close
    to that quality. We have studio pictures in our house taken with a
    professional Foveon set-up and they are indistinguisable from film.

    Foveon's problem in the consumer space is finding a high end customer
    that doesn't make their own sensors. But there's only two high end
    digital SLR companies, Canon and Nikon, and neither are interested.
     
    Steven M. Scharf, Oct 29, 2003
    #16
  17. "Steven M. Scharf" <> wrote in message
    news:5LRnb.7184$...
    > "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    > news:bnn6fc$e7h$...
    >
    > > Will all other Bayer manufactures follow suit and disclose how their

    > colors
    > > are really formed? For example, the Canon 10D should now be listed

    as...
    > > "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue )"

    >
    > The other manufacturers don't pay any attention to Sigma. First of all,
    > comparing pixel counts is meaningless between a Foveon sensor and
    > a regular CCD or CMOS sensor. Second of all, Sigma is so far down
    > the list in terms of units shipped that Canon, Nikon, Sony, don't really
    > care what they do. Third, the Foveon based Sigma SLR is a very poor
    > camera in terms of picture quality,


    It's hard to tell since 10D owners almost uniformly refrain from posting
    full sized images,

    http://www.pbase.com/cameras

    Out of 130,000 10D images, the tiny minority that are full size are terribly
    blurry, usually noisey, and without fail have been heavily sharpened.
    Almost all the SD-9 images are full size with extrememly impressive
    sharpness and detail. User behavior with this many samples speaks for
    itself.

    > and apparently the only way Sigma
    > can market it is to count pixels; but consumers buying D-SLRs are
    > smart enough not to fall for that. Hence the tremendous success of the
    > Canon 10D and the Canon 300-D.
    >
    > It's really too bad, Foveon has great potential. Their professional
    > studio cameras are awesome; I have a picture taken of me with a
    > model at Comdex where they were exhibiting in the booth of the
    > company I used to work for (National Semiconductor) a few years
    > ago; you'd have to go to the Canon professional model to come close
    > to that quality. We have studio pictures in our house taken with a
    > professional Foveon set-up and they are indistinguisable from film.
    >
    > Foveon's problem in the consumer space is finding a high end customer
    > that doesn't make their own sensors. But there's only two high end
    > digital SLR companies, Canon and Nikon, and neither are interested.
    >
    >
     
    George Preddy, Oct 29, 2003
    #17
  18. George Preddy

    Mike Engles Guest

    George Preddy wrote:
    >
    > "Steven M. Scharf" <> wrote in message
    > news:5LRnb.7184$...
    > > "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    > > news:bnn6fc$e7h$...
    > >
    > > > Will all other Bayer manufactures follow suit and disclose how their

    > > colors
    > > > are really formed? For example, the Canon 10D should now be listed

    > as...
    > > > "6.3 MP (1.58 MP Red + 3.16 MP Green + 1.58 MP Blue )"

    > >
    > > The other manufacturers don't pay any attention to Sigma. First of all,
    > > comparing pixel counts is meaningless between a Foveon sensor and
    > > a regular CCD or CMOS sensor. Second of all, Sigma is so far down
    > > the list in terms of units shipped that Canon, Nikon, Sony, don't really
    > > care what they do. Third, the Foveon based Sigma SLR is a very poor
    > > camera in terms of picture quality,

    >
    > It's hard to tell since 10D owners almost uniformly refrain from posting
    > full sized images,
    >
    > http://www.pbase.com/cameras
    >
    > Out of 130,000 10D images, the tiny minority that are full size are terribly
    > blurry, usually noisey, and without fail have been heavily sharpened.
    > Almost all the SD-9 images are full size with extrememly impressive
    > sharpness and detail. User behavior with this many samples speaks for
    > itself.
    >
    > > and apparently the only way Sigma
    > > can market it is to count pixels; but consumers buying D-SLRs are
    > > smart enough not to fall for that. Hence the tremendous success of the
    > > Canon 10D and the Canon 300-D.
    > >
    > > It's really too bad, Foveon has great potential. Their professional
    > > studio cameras are awesome; I have a picture taken of me with a
    > > model at Comdex where they were exhibiting in the booth of the
    > > company I used to work for (National Semiconductor) a few years
    > > ago; you'd have to go to the Canon professional model to come close
    > > to that quality. We have studio pictures in our house taken with a
    > > professional Foveon set-up and they are indistinguisable from film.
    > >
    > > Foveon's problem in the consumer space is finding a high end customer
    > > that doesn't make their own sensors. But there's only two high end
    > > digital SLR companies, Canon and Nikon, and neither are interested.
    > >
    > >



    Hello

    Here are six

    http://www.canon.co.jp/Imaging/eosdigital/eosdigital_sample-e.html

    Mike Engles
     
    Mike Engles, Oct 29, 2003
    #18
  19. George Preddy

    Lisa Horton Guest

    Re: Will other Camera manufactures even notice what Sigma does?

    Will other cameras follow Sigma's lead? Sigma's Lead??? No, I think
    that they will stick to more reasonable claims, as they don't have
    Sigma's huge disadvantages in terms of quality, market share, and public
    perception.

    Anyone wanting the highest quality lenses will reject Sigma in favor of
    Nikon/Canon.

    Anyone wanting an extensive selection of lenses will reject Sigma.

    Anyone wanting even a modest selection of prime lenses will reject
    Sigma.

    Anyone who wants to be able to buy lenses from more than one
    manufacturer will reject Sigma.

    Anyone who wants a really high quality body will reject Sigma.

    Are you getting the picture, George? In camera bodies, Sigma isn't even
    an also-ran. All the major manufacturers can afford to simply ignore
    Sigma, as Sigma is no competition for them no matter what sensor Sigma
    uses.

    The Foveon people are clearly desperate to get their sensor in a camera,
    any camera.

    Lisa
     
    Lisa Horton, Oct 30, 2003
    #19
  20. George Preddy

    Tony Spadaro Guest

    Re: Will other Camera manufactures even notice what Sigma does?

    Sigma's lead????????? Sigma's Lead?????????
    Somebody has been smoking the CCDs again.

    --
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
    home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
    The Improved Links Pages are at
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
    A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
    "Lisa Horton" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > Will other cameras follow Sigma's lead? Sigma's Lead??? No, I think
    > that they will stick to more reasonable claims, as they don't have
    > Sigma's huge disadvantages in terms of quality, market share, and public
    > perception.
    >
    > Anyone wanting the highest quality lenses will reject Sigma in favor of
    > Nikon/Canon.
    >
    > Anyone wanting an extensive selection of lenses will reject Sigma.
    >
    > Anyone wanting even a modest selection of prime lenses will reject
    > Sigma.
    >
    > Anyone who wants to be able to buy lenses from more than one
    > manufacturer will reject Sigma.
    >
    > Anyone who wants a really high quality body will reject Sigma.
    >
    > Are you getting the picture, George? In camera bodies, Sigma isn't even
    > an also-ran. All the major manufacturers can afford to simply ignore
    > Sigma, as Sigma is no competition for them no matter what sensor Sigma
    > uses.
    >
    > The Foveon people are clearly desperate to get their sensor in a camera,
    > any camera.
    >
    > Lisa
     
    Tony Spadaro, Oct 30, 2003
    #20
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