Will Academy Ratio films be cropped to 16:9 in the future?

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by Grand Inquisitor, Jul 15, 2004.

  1. Or will demand for older, 4:3 movies come mainly from true movie fans
    who want to see something in its OAR?
    --

    "The world cares very little about what a man or woman knows; it is what
    a man or woman is able to do that counts."

    --Booker T. Washington
     
    Grand Inquisitor, Jul 15, 2004
    #1
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  2. Grand Inquisitor

    Biz Guest

    "Grand Inquisitor" <> wrote in message
    news:VfmJc.5$...
    > Or will demand for older, 4:3 movies come mainly from true movie fans
    > who want to see something in its OAR?


    Has it happened at all yet? I know that widescreen movies get butchered all
    teh time, but I've yet to hear about an academy ratio film being cropped for
    release.
     
    Biz, Jul 15, 2004
    #2
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  3. Probabaly not on video but in the 60's they were putting out
    "widescreen" versions of Gone With The Wind, Wizard Of Oz and others in
    theaters

    Biz wrote:
    >
    > "Grand Inquisitor" <> wrote in message
    > news:VfmJc.5$...
    > > Or will demand for older, 4:3 movies come mainly from true movie fans
    > > who want to see something in its OAR?

    >
    > Has it happened at all yet? I know that widescreen movies get butchered all
    > teh time, but I've yet to hear about an academy ratio film being cropped for
    > release.
     
    Michael Rogers, Jul 15, 2004
    #3
  4. Biz wrote:
    > Has it happened at all yet? I know that widescreen movies get
    > butchered all teh time, but I've yet to hear about an academy ratio
    > film being cropped for release.


    While it wasn't really a major theater release, the director's cut of
    Pink Floyd's "Live At Pompeii" was cropped to 16:9.

    --
    Brian The Demolition Man Little
    TNAImpact.com Columnist & Message Board Mod
    Want "Fullscreen DVDs"... Buy VHS and get your
    filthy hands off of my Widescreen DVD! Widescreen.org
     
    Brian The Demolition Man Little, Jul 15, 2004
    #4
  5. Brian The Demolition Man Little wrote:
    > Biz wrote:


    >> Has it happened at all yet? I know that widescreen movies get
    >> butchered all teh time, but I've yet to hear about an academy ratio
    >> film being cropped for release.

    >
    > While it wasn't really a major theater release, the director's cut of
    > Pink Floyd's "Live At Pompeii" was cropped to 16:9.


    As was the DVD of Peter Gabriel's _Secret World_ concert film. And the
    first season of the _Kung Fu_ TV show. And good-sized chunks of _Babylon
    5_, come to think of it (all the exterior/CGI sequences, plus the opticals
    and a few FX-laden shots from the interior/live-action footage).

    Unfortunately, tilt-and-scan doesn't seem to be going away.

    doug

    --
    "And the chorus goes, and the chorus goes, b-b-b-b-b-bang..."
    --Wire
     
    Douglas Bailey, Jul 15, 2004
    #5
  6. Douglas Bailey wrote:
    > As was the DVD of Peter Gabriel's _Secret World_ concert film.


    I would of assumed that it was filmed at 16:9 since many concerts
    today are filmed in WS (ie: Roger Waters "In The Flesh").

    --
    Brian The Demolition Man Little
    TNAImpact.com Columnist & Message Board Mod
    Want "Fullscreen DVDs"... Buy VHS and get your
    filthy hands off of my Widescreen DVD! Widescreen.org
     
    Brian The Demolition Man Little, Jul 15, 2004
    #6
  7. Grand Inquisitor

    Smaug69 Guest

    Douglas Bailey <> wrote in message news:<1v5iewxcvnhv8$>...
    > Brian The Demolition Man Little wrote:
    > > Biz wrote:

    >
    > >> Has it happened at all yet? I know that widescreen movies get
    > >> butchered all teh time, but I've yet to hear about an academy ratio
    > >> film being cropped for release.

    > >
    > > While it wasn't really a major theater release, the director's cut of
    > > Pink Floyd's "Live At Pompeii" was cropped to 16:9.

    >
    > As was the DVD of Peter Gabriel's _Secret World_ concert film. And the
    > first season of the _Kung Fu_ TV show. And good-sized chunks of _Babylon
    > 5_, come to think of it (all the exterior/CGI sequences, plus the opticals
    > and a few FX-laden shots from the interior/live-action footage).


    Babylon 5 ran from 1994-1998. Was it filmed in 16:9 for its entire run
    as IMDB suggests? If it was it seems strange considering that almost
    no one had widescreen TVs at the time and HDTVs weren't available to
    the public until 1998- meaning no one could watch them in their 16:9
    glory. Hell, DVDs didn't even come out until the spring of '97. I
    watched B5 early on and don't recall seeing a single episode shown in
    letterbox. I guess that also means the DVDs are not OAR since they are
    1.85:1.

    Smaug69
     
    Smaug69, Jul 15, 2004
    #7
  8. Smaug69 wrote:
    > Babylon 5 ran from 1994-1998. Was it filmed in 16:9 for its entire run
    > as IMDB suggests? If it was it seems strange considering that almost
    > no one had widescreen TVs at the time and HDTVs weren't available to
    > the public until 1998- meaning no one could watch them in their 16:9
    > glory. Hell, DVDs didn't even come out until the spring of '97. I
    > watched B5 early on and don't recall seeing a single episode shown in
    > letterbox. I guess that also means the DVDs are not OAR since they are
    > 1.85:1.
    >
    > Smaug69


    I've never seen the show (I'm a DS9 man), but the story I heard was that
    it was filmed in 16:9 all along, and cropped for tv. EXCEPT for the
    CG shots, which were rendered in 4:3 but cropped to 16:9 for the DVDs.

    --

    "The world cares very little about what a man or woman knows; it is what
    a man or woman is able to do that counts."

    --Booker T. Washington
     
    Grand Inquisitor, Jul 15, 2004
    #8
  9. Brian The Demolition Man Little wrote:
    > Douglas Bailey wrote:


    >> As was the DVD of Peter Gabriel's _Secret World_ concert film.

    >
    > I would of assumed that it was filmed at 16:9 since many concerts
    > today are filmed in WS (ie: Roger Waters "In The Flesh").


    True, though _In The Flesh_ was filmed more recently, in 2000, while
    _Secret World_ was shot back in 1994, before 16:9 was such a concern.

    _Secret World_ was released on VHS and laserdisc in a 1.33:1 aspect ratio
    and cropped down to 1.78:1 for the DVD release.

    And I don't own the DVD myself, but back when it was released, the
    consensus among those who'd seen both the LD and the DVD was that the
    cropping harmed the composition and was probably not intended by the
    original filmmakers.

    doug

    --
    "I am mesmerised by my own beat like a heartbeat..."
    --Wire
     
    Douglas Bailey, Jul 15, 2004
    #9
  10. Smaug69 wrote:
    > Douglas Bailey wrote:
    >> ...good-sized chunks of _Babylon 5_ [were cropped], come to think of it
    >> (all the exterior/CGI sequences, plus the opticals and a few FX-laden
    >> shots from the interior/live-action footage).

    >
    > Babylon 5 ran from 1994-1998. Was it filmed in 16:9 for its entire run as
    > IMDB suggests?... I watched B5 early on and don't recall seeing a single
    > episode shown in letterbox.


    According to Henrik Herranen's exhaustive article at
    <http://www.cs.tut.fi/~leopold/Babylon5/DVD/DVDTransfer.html>, the
    live-action sequences were filmed in Super 35. A 4:3 extraction was made
    for the original TV broadcasts and the laserdisc releases, and a 16:9
    extraction made for the DVDs and the Sci-Fi channel re-runs.

    (The show was supposedly originally broadcast in 16:9 in some European
    markets, though I can't confirm this.)

    But in any event, that article also makes it clear that the CGI sequences
    and the opticals/composites were rendered purely as 4:3 NTSC images, so the
    16:9 versions on the DVDs are blown up to match the width of the widescreen
    framing and then cropped top/bottom. It's very clear when this scaling
    happens on an optical/composite shot: there's a noticeable drop in video
    quality compared to the other live-action footage.


    > I guess that also means the DVDs are not OAR since they are 1.85:1.


    Correct, although the live-action sequences are at least reframed in a way
    that the original filmmakers planned for and approved of. The CGI and
    optical/composite sequences, on the other hand... Henrik's article claims
    that these shots "are supposedly generated in such a way that allows for
    matting the top and bottom of images" for widescreen, but it's hard to know
    for certain.

    doug

    --
    "You know some people need nothing else..."
    --Shriekback
     
    Douglas Bailey, Jul 15, 2004
    #10
  11. Grand Inquisitor

    Biz Guest

    "Douglas Bailey" <> wrote in message
    news:2tuhhnuv0wis$...
    > Brian The Demolition Man Little wrote:
    > > Douglas Bailey wrote:

    >
    > >> As was the DVD of Peter Gabriel's _Secret World_ concert film.

    > >
    > > I would of assumed that it was filmed at 16:9 since many concerts
    > > today are filmed in WS (ie: Roger Waters "In The Flesh").

    >
    > True, though _In The Flesh_ was filmed more recently, in 2000, while
    > _Secret World_ was shot back in 1994, before 16:9 was such a concern.
    >
    > _Secret World_ was released on VHS and laserdisc in a 1.33:1 aspect ratio
    > and cropped down to 1.78:1 for the DVD release.
    >
    > And I don't own the DVD myself, but back when it was released, the
    > consensus among those who'd seen both the LD and the DVD was that the
    > cropping harmed the composition and was probably not intended by the
    > original filmmakers.


    I've got the original VHS and teh DVD of the Secret World Live Tour, the
    composition on the DVD is much better.
     
    Biz, Jul 15, 2004
    #11
  12. Douglas Bailey wrote:
    > True, though _In The Flesh_ was filmed more recently, in 2000, while
    > _Secret World_ was shot back in 1994, before 16:9 was such a concern.
    >
    > _Secret World_ was released on VHS and laserdisc in a 1.33:1 aspect
    > ratio and cropped down to 1.78:1 for the DVD release.


    Oops, my fault. I was thinking of the recent "Growing Up" DVD and
    somehow got it mixed up with the "Secret World" one you are refering to.

    --
    Brian The Demolition Man Little
    TNAImpact.com Columnist & Message Board Mod
    Want "Fullscreen DVDs"... Buy VHS and get your
    filthy hands off of my Widescreen DVD! Widescreen.org
     
    Brian The Demolition Man Little, Jul 15, 2004
    #12
  13. Biz wrote:
    > Douglas Bailey wrote:
    >> _Secret World_ was released on VHS and laserdisc in a 1.33:1 aspect
    >> ratio and cropped down to 1.78:1 for the DVD release.
    >>
    >> And I don't own the DVD myself, but back when it was released, the
    >> consensus among those who'd seen both the LD and the DVD was that the
    >> cropping harmed the composition and was probably not intended by the
    >> original filmmakers.

    >
    > I've got the original VHS and teh DVD of the Secret World Live Tour, the
    > composition on the DVD is much better.


    Well, I can't contradict you: I'm just going by what several posters (here
    and on the Home Theater Forum) said back when _Secret World_ was released
    on DVD.

    doug

    --
    "You know some people need nothing else..."
    --Shriekback
     
    Douglas Bailey, Jul 15, 2004
    #13
  14. Grand Inquisitor

    Jordan Lund Guest

    (Smaug69) wrote in message news:<>...

    > Babylon 5 ran from 1994-1998. Was it filmed in 16:9 for its entire run
    > as IMDB suggests?


    It was. JMS was a real forward thinking kind of guy. The original
    broadcast was 4:3, but it was shot for widescreen.

    The problem is all the computer effects were designed for 4:3 so on
    the DVDs the live action is shown as intended (but not as originally
    aired) while the CGI is cropped and shown as it was not intended and
    not as it originally aired.

    - Jordan
     
    Jordan Lund, Jul 15, 2004
    #14
  15. Grand Inquisitor

    madkevin Guest

    "Grand Inquisitor" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:vxJc.10$...
    > Smaug69 wrote:
    > > Babylon 5 ran from 1994-1998. Was it filmed in 16:9 for its entire run
    > > as IMDB suggests?


    > I've never seen the show (I'm a DS9 man), but the story I heard was that
    > it was filmed in 16:9 all along, and cropped for tv.


    So, Quizzy: If you've never seen "Babylon 5", then what were you comparing DS:9
    to when you called it "the best dramatic show in history"? (Reference
    http://tinyurl.com/3wnt9 to refresh your memory.)

    Kevin "Romper Room" Cogliano
     
    madkevin, Jul 16, 2004
    #15
  16. madkevin wrote:
    > So, Quizzy: If you've never seen "Babylon 5", then what were you comparing DS:9
    > to when you called it "the best dramatic show in history"? (Reference
    > http://tinyurl.com/3wnt9 to refresh your memory.)


    Get over your obsession with me, grow up already.

    To answer your question, it's called hyperbole. I doubt anybody could
    say they've seen every single dramatic tv show in history.

    --

    "The world cares very little about what a man or woman knows; it is what
    a man or woman is able to do that counts."

    --Booker T. Washington
     
    Grand Inquisitor, Jul 16, 2004
    #16
  17. Grand Inquisitor

    Mike Kohary Guest

    madkevin wrote:
    > "Grand Inquisitor" <> wrote in message
    > news:eek:vxJc.10$...
    >> Smaug69 wrote:
    >>> Babylon 5 ran from 1994-1998. Was it filmed in 16:9 for its entire
    >>> run as IMDB suggests?

    >
    >> I've never seen the show (I'm a DS9 man), but the story I heard was
    >> that it was filmed in 16:9 all along, and cropped for tv.

    >
    > So, Quizzy...


    Are you like, a stalker, or something?

    Mike
     
    Mike Kohary, Jul 16, 2004
    #17
  18. Grand Inquisitor

    Mike Kohary Guest

    Jordan Lund wrote:
    > (Smaug69) wrote in message
    > news:<>...
    >
    >> Babylon 5 ran from 1994-1998. Was it filmed in 16:9 for its entire
    >> run as IMDB suggests?

    >
    > It was. JMS was a real forward thinking kind of guy. The original
    > broadcast was 4:3, but it was shot for widescreen.
    >
    > The problem is all the computer effects were designed for 4:3 so on
    > the DVDs the live action is shown as intended (but not as originally
    > aired) while the CGI is cropped and shown as it was not intended and
    > not as it originally aired.


    Sounds like he wasn't all that forward thinking - what's the use of
    composing for 16:9 for one and 4:3 for the other? All that did was
    guarantee that any eventual video transfer couldn't be in either ratio
    without a compromise on the other. That was the worst possible way they
    could have addressed the issue they apparently wanted to address.

    Mike
     
    Mike Kohary, Jul 16, 2004
    #18
  19. Mike Kohary wrote:
    >>So, Quizzy...

    >
    >
    > Are you like, a stalker, or something?
    >
    > Mike


    That's what I'm beginning to wonder. He's one of the hate-mongers from
    rec.arts.movies.past-films, intolerant of dissenting, unpopular
    opinions, and now he follows me here to occassionally make lame cracks
    about something innocent that I've said.

    --

    "The world cares very little about what a man or woman knows; it is what
    a man or woman is able to do that counts."

    --Booker T. Washington
     
    Grand Inquisitor, Jul 16, 2004
    #19
  20. Grand Inquisitor

    Dick Sidbury Guest

    Mike Kohary wrote:

    > Jordan Lund wrote:
    >
    >> (Smaug69) wrote in message
    >>news:<>...
    >>
    >>
    >>>Babylon 5 ran from 1994-1998. Was it filmed in 16:9 for its entire
    >>>run as IMDB suggests?

    >>
    >>It was. JMS was a real forward thinking kind of guy. The original
    >>broadcast was 4:3, but it was shot for widescreen.
    >>
    >>The problem is all the computer effects were designed for 4:3 so on
    >>the DVDs the live action is shown as intended (but not as originally
    >>aired) while the CGI is cropped and shown as it was not intended and
    >>not as it originally aired.

    >
    >
    > Sounds like he wasn't all that forward thinking - what's the use of
    > composing for 16:9 for one and 4:3 for the other? All that did was
    > guarantee that any eventual video transfer couldn't be in either ratio
    > without a compromise on the other. That was the worst possible way they
    > could have addressed the issue they apparently wanted to address.
    >
    > Mike
    >
    >

    The way I heard it is that he composed for 16:9 but WB only paid for CGI
    at 4:3 because that was what would be on TV when it was shown. And WB
    didn't want to pay to CGI the full 16:9 just for a video release.

    but I could be wrong.

    dick
     
    Dick Sidbury, Jul 16, 2004
    #20
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