Widescreen

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by Nick, Jan 13, 2004.

  1. Nick

    Nick Guest

    I have just brought my first Widescreen TV. When I play some Widescreen
    DVD's they come up Widescreen full screen but on others they still have a
    black box top and bottom. I thought if you had a widescreen TV it stopped
    this. My Dvd player is set to 16:9 as is my TV. When I watch films that have
    got black top/bottom I can switch to Letterbox which makes it widescreen
    full screen but it then cuts part of the picture top and bottom. Any advice
    please. Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    Nick, Jan 13, 2004
    #1
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  2. On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:54:34 +0000 (UTC), "Nick"
    <> wrote:

    >I have just brought my first Widescreen TV. When I play some Widescreen
    >DVD's they come up Widescreen full screen but on others they still have a
    >black box top and bottom. I thought if you had a widescreen TV it stopped
    >this. My Dvd player is set to 16:9 as is my TV. When I watch films that have
    >got black top/bottom I can switch to Letterbox which makes it widescreen
    >full screen but it then cuts part of the picture top and bottom. Any advice
    >please. Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    >

    Some movies are wider than others and will have black bars even on a
    widescreen TV. There is nothing wrong, this is how it is supposed to
    be. When you set your TV to letterbox to make them fullscreen, you are
    simply distorting the image.

    See www.widescreen.org for an explainantion.

    Watch the movie, not the bars!

    Mischa
     
    Mischa van Dinter, Jan 13, 2004
    #2
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  3. Nick

    Fin4life Guest

    This is very simplistic but, generally speaking, films shot and presented in
    2.35 will still have small black bars on top and bottom when played on
    widescreen TV's. Films shot and presented in 1.85 will fill up a widescreen.
     
    Fin4life, Jan 13, 2004
    #3
  4. Nick

    Nick Guest

    I knew the difference between Pan and Scan - Widescreen and do prefer
    widescreen but found the site very helpful and your advice. One last
    question:

    Am I harming my TV by forcing a 16:9 image into letterbox therefore
    distorting the image?



    "Mischa van Dinter" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:54:34 +0000 (UTC), "Nick"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >I have just brought my first Widescreen TV. When I play some Widescreen
    > >DVD's they come up Widescreen full screen but on others they still have a
    > >black box top and bottom. I thought if you had a widescreen TV it stopped
    > >this. My Dvd player is set to 16:9 as is my TV. When I watch films that

    have
    > >got black top/bottom I can switch to Letterbox which makes it widescreen
    > >full screen but it then cuts part of the picture top and bottom. Any

    advice
    > >please. Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    > >

    > Some movies are wider than others and will have black bars even on a
    > widescreen TV. There is nothing wrong, this is how it is supposed to
    > be. When you set your TV to letterbox to make them fullscreen, you are
    > simply distorting the image.
    >
    > See www.widescreen.org for an explainantion.
    >
    > Watch the movie, not the bars!
    >
    > Mischa
     
    Nick, Jan 13, 2004
    #4
  5. On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:06:05 +0000 (UTC), "Nick"
    <> wrote:

    >I knew the difference between Pan and Scan - Widescreen and do prefer
    >widescreen but found the site very helpful and your advice. One last
    >question:
    >
    >Am I harming my TV by forcing a 16:9 image into letterbox therefore
    >distorting the image?
    >

    No, you will not damage your TV. But, me personally, I don't like to
    distort the image like that because it looks terrible. You should try
    it with the bars, you'll get used to it.

    Mischa
     
    Mischa van Dinter, Jan 13, 2004
    #5
  6. Nick

    Richard C. Guest

    "Nick" <> wrote in message
    news:bu0taq$r9i$...
    : I have just brought my first Widescreen TV. When I play some Widescreen
    : DVD's they come up Widescreen full screen but on others they still have a
    : black box top and bottom. I thought if you had a widescreen TV it stopped
    : this. My Dvd player is set to 16:9 as is my TV. When I watch films that have
    : got black top/bottom I can switch to Letterbox which makes it widescreen
    : full screen but it then cuts part of the picture top and bottom. Any advice
    : please. Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    :
    =======================
    Your TV is 16:9 (1.78:1).
    Movies are (mostly) 1.85:1 and 2.35:1.
    Everything is as it should be.......................................
     
    Richard C., Jan 13, 2004
    #6
  7. Nick wrote:

    > I knew the difference between Pan and Scan - Widescreen and do prefer
    > widescreen but found the site very helpful and your advice. One last
    > question:
    >
    > Am I harming my TV by forcing a 16:9 image into letterbox therefore
    > distorting the image?


    The other issue is that for a widescreen to properly handle
    a 16x9 image you need to be sending it a progressive scan
    signal via component video cables and have set your tv's
    input to component. You'll not only get the best picture
    possible but most 16x9 movies will fill the screen without
    any stretching going on.


    Darrel :)
     
    Darrel Christenson, Jan 13, 2004
    #7
  8. Nick

    Nick Guest

    Cheers u been very helpful. Thank u


    "Mischa van Dinter" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:06:05 +0000 (UTC), "Nick"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >I knew the difference between Pan and Scan - Widescreen and do prefer
    > >widescreen but found the site very helpful and your advice. One last
    > >question:
    > >
    > >Am I harming my TV by forcing a 16:9 image into letterbox therefore
    > >distorting the image?
    > >

    > No, you will not damage your TV. But, me personally, I don't like to
    > distort the image like that because it looks terrible. You should try
    > it with the bars, you'll get used to it.
    >
    > Mischa
     
    Nick, Jan 13, 2004
    #8
  9. >The other issue is that for a widescreen to properly handle
    >a 16x9 image you need to be sending it a progressive scan
    >signal via component video cables and have set your tv's
    >input to component. You'll not only get the best picture
    >possible but most 16x9 movies will fill the screen without
    >any stretching going on.
    >

    Widescreen TV's will only accept an anamorphic signal via
    progressive component?

    Are widescreen TV's smart enough to reckonize anamorphic video directly,
    or do you need to push a button or set a menu? How easy is it to switch
    between anamorphic widescreen, non-anamorphic widescreen, and 1.33
    sources?
    --

    Monte Castleman, <<Spamfilter in Use>>
    Bloomington, MN to email, remove the "q" from my address
     
    Monte Castleman, Jan 13, 2004
    #9
  10. "Nick" <> wrote in message
    news:bu0taq$r9i$...
    > I have just brought my first Widescreen TV. When I play some Widescreen
    > DVD's they come up Widescreen full screen but on others they still have a
    > black box top and bottom. I thought if you had a widescreen TV it stopped
    > this. My Dvd player is set to 16:9 as is my TV. When I watch films that

    have
    > got black top/bottom I can switch to Letterbox which makes it widescreen
    > full screen but it then cuts part of the picture top and bottom. Any

    advice
    > please. Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    There's only 1 thing you can check, and you've already set it up. That was
    changing the player to 16:9 TV mode.

    What you are experiencing is supposed to happen. What you are watching are
    2.35:1 movies. These have an aspect wider than 16:9 (1.77:1). To
    compensate, the player adds black bars at the top and bottom.

    Like you said, it doesnt happen on all of them. The ones it won't happen on
    are 1.85:1 and 1.77:1 movies. If it happens on 1.85:1, it is only a little
    bit and you'd have to actually look to find the bars.

    As long as people look like they are realisitic, and buildings are normal
    looking, and circles are circles and not some tall oval or fat oval, then
    you're good.

    If you have any full-screen DVDs, like The Simpsons, try playing those. I
    think you'll find you have a new enemy: left & right bars :)
     
    Anonymous Joe, Jan 13, 2004
    #10
  11. "Monte Castleman" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > >The other issue is that for a widescreen to properly handle
    > >a 16x9 image you need to be sending it a progressive scan
    > >signal via component video cables and have set your tv's
    > >input to component. You'll not only get the best picture
    > >possible but most 16x9 movies will fill the screen without
    > >any stretching going on.
    > >

    > Widescreen TV's will only accept an anamorphic signal via
    > progressive component?
    >
    > Are widescreen TV's smart enough to reckonize anamorphic video directly,
    > or do you need to push a button or set a menu? How easy is it to switch
    > between anamorphic widescreen, non-anamorphic widescreen, and 1.33
    > sources?
    > --
    >
    > Monte Castleman, <<Spamfilter in Use>>
    > Bloomington, MN to email, remove the "q" from my address



    Please don't listen to that other person, they clearly don't know what
    anamorphic means.

    To make an anamorphic DVD, the MPEG-2 file used to author the DVD from is
    set with a 16:9 flag for aspect ratio. What is done to the video is it is
    formatted to look good when played back at a resolution of 853x480. If this
    means adding bars (2.35:1 movies), so be it. [As you'll notice, 853x480 is
    16:9]. What is then done, this is the anamorphic part, is the 853 is
    changed to 720 to make it in DVD spec. So, whatever the original height was
    for a 853px wide video is the same height used for the 720px wide video.
    Let's take a 2.35:1 movie. In 853x480 to preserve the aspect, you need to
    make the video 362px tall. This means that 118px of bars are added, 59px on
    the top & 59px on the bottom. When viewed at 853x480, with bars, this looks
    perfectly normal & in aspect. However, DVD needs it to be 720x480. So, the
    horizontal resolution is COMPRESSED (that's what anamorphic means). Now, the
    video is in a 720x362 area. This is not in aspect at all. Now, the aspect
    is 1.99:1. That will make people look taller than they should and circles
    become tall ovals.

    The DVD players sees that 16:9 flag, however, and knows to stretch it out
    horizontally to 853x480, and in that it turns out to be in aspect. This
    16:9 flag is ON THE DVD, not in the DVD player's settings or dependent on
    what TV you actually have. If a DVD player sees this flag & is set to 4:3
    TV, it will take that 720x480 image and squish it verically, to 720x400, and
    then add 40px of black bars to the top & bottom of that. At this point, the
    362 has undergone a change of 400/480ths, and in that is now 306px.
    Hmm....720x306, that's a 2.35:1 aspect.

    That's all anamorphic means, a horizontal compression during encoding, which
    is removed during playback. 2.35:1 movies and 1.85:1 movies stored on 35mm
    film undergo the same process. Instead, they use special lenses to fit the
    horizontal space into the smaller space on the film (which is physically
    1.33:1). During playback, another lens is used to stretch out the
    horizontally compressed video.

    The reason why anamorphic is better for 16:9 TVs rather than a letterbox DVD
    is that when you playback a 4:3 letterbox DVD on a 16:9 TV, the video is
    zoomed in both horizontally and vertically. This is two forms of distortion
    happening on the fly. With an anamorphic DVD, however, it is only stretched
    horizontally. There is only 1 distortion there. When you playback 4:3
    letterobox on a 4:3 TV, however, I don't think there is any distortion. If
    you playback anamorphic DVD on a 4:3 TV, though, it removes some vertical
    lines, so this is a distortion. Atleast reduction isn't as bad as
    expansion, so anamorphic is decided to be the best way to store widescreen
    movies. It offers the fewest distortions for both types of TVs, and is the
    best format for a 16:9 TV to be played back from.

    Now, here's the fun part:

    Progressive Scan needs Component video cables, but anamorphic doesn't.
    Anamorphic can be played back on Composite, S-Video, and Component.

    What is progressive scan, or how does it work? This is the really neat part
    that makes you just question isn't there any easier way? And then, you'll
    say yeah, there is, I know what it is, so why can't they do that.

    OK, here's how progressive scan works:

    A DVD (for NTSC world -- US/Can/Jap) from FILM has 23.976fps, and they are
    progressive, but the TV needs to show 29.97fps that are interlaced. It does
    what is called a 3:2 pulldown to make some extra fields (interlaced fields,
    1/2 an image) out of these present 23.976fps enough so that there are now
    29.97fps. The information stored on the disc is for 23.976fps, however, the
    extra fields are made with the DVD player during playback. But, remember
    that all this is interlaced. To make it progressive you need to
    de-interlace it. So, what a progressive scan DVD player does is takes
    23.976fps Progressive turns it into 29.97fps Interlaced and then
    de-interlaces it back into 23.976fps Progressive and sends that out. What a
    progressive TV would do is take that 29.97fps Interlaced and de-interlace it
    on the TV. When buying a progressive scan DVD player what you are paying
    for is the De-Interlacing chip.

    It *ONLY* makes sense to buy a progressive scan DVD player if you are in a
    situation where both of these are true:

    1) You have a progressive TV
    2) Your TV has a crappy de-interlacing chip

    If your TV can do a better job de-interlacing the signal, then a $40 player
    will be better for you than a $120 progressive scan DVD player. Hard to
    believe? Its true!

    So, the question with progressive scan dvd players becomes, why cant they
    just show you the 23.976fps off the disc instead of doing this interlacing
    it and then deinterlacing it thing? I really dont know that, it is awfully
    silly though. W
     
    Anonymous Joe, Jan 13, 2004
    #11
  12. On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:57:25 +0000 (UTC), "Nick"
    <> wrote:

    >Cheers u been very helpful. Thank u
    >
    >

    No problem! Enjoy your new TV.

    Grtz
    Mischa
     
    Mischa van Dinter, Jan 13, 2004
    #12
  13. Nick

    Mark Spatny Guest

    Darrel Christenson, says...
    > The other issue is that for a widescreen to properly handle
    > a 16x9 image you need to be sending it a progressive scan
    > signal via component video cables


    Maybe that's true for your TV, but not mine. My 34" XBR Wega handles
    anamorphic just fine with S-video cables, from a non-progressive scan
    player. And frankly, I think the electronics in my $2,500 TV does a
    better job of dealing with the interlaced frames than the cheapo $120
    progressive scan DVD player would do.
     
    Mark Spatny, Jan 13, 2004
    #13
  14. Nick

    Mark B. Guest

    "Nick" <> wrote in message
    news:bu11gt$9hr$...
    > I knew the difference between Pan and Scan - Widescreen and do prefer
    > widescreen but found the site very helpful and your advice. One last
    > question:
    >
    > Am I harming my TV by forcing a 16:9 image into letterbox therefore
    > distorting the image?
    >
    >


    Don't know about harming the TV, but doesn't it look stupid all distorted??
     
    Mark B., Jan 13, 2004
    #14
  15. Nick

    Mark B. Guest

    "Nick" <> wrote in message
    news:bu0taq$r9i$...
    > I have just brought my first Widescreen TV. When I play some Widescreen
    > DVD's they come up Widescreen full screen but on others they still have a
    > black box top and bottom. I thought if you had a widescreen TV it stopped
    > this. My Dvd player is set to 16:9 as is my TV. When I watch films that

    have
    > got black top/bottom I can switch to Letterbox which makes it widescreen
    > full screen but it then cuts part of the picture top and bottom. Any

    advice
    > please. Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    >
    >


    Movies are not all the same ratio. Watch the movie and not the 'black
    bars'.

    Mark
     
    Mark B., Jan 13, 2004
    #15
  16. Nick

    Richard C. Guest

    "Darrel Christenson" <> wrote in message
    news:OQUMb.43631$5V2.62852@attbi_s53...
    : Nick wrote:
    :
    : > I knew the difference between Pan and Scan - Widescreen and do prefer
    : > widescreen but found the site very helpful and your advice. One last
    : > question:
    : >
    : > Am I harming my TV by forcing a 16:9 image into letterbox therefore
    : > distorting the image?
    :
    : The other issue is that for a widescreen to properly handle
    : a 16x9 image you need to be sending it a progressive scan
    : signal via component video cables and have set your tv's
    : input to component. You'll not only get the best picture
    : possible but most 16x9 movies will fill the screen without
    : any stretching going on.
    :
    =================================
    Not if they are 2.35:1 or 1.37:1 movies.
     
    Richard C., Jan 14, 2004
    #16
  17. Mark Spatny wrote:

    >
    > Maybe that's true for your TV, but not mine. My 34" XBR Wega handles
    > anamorphic just fine with S-video cables, from a non-progressive scan
    > player. And frankly, I think the electronics in my $2,500 TV does a
    > better job of dealing with the interlaced frames than the cheapo $120
    > progressive scan DVD player would do.


    It may "handle" it to some degree, but anamorphic
    video can only be properly processed and displayed
    as intended via a progressive scan player and
    component video cables and a display that can
    handle it all.

    But then again, that's my 2 cents...


    drc :)
     
    Darrel Christenson, Jan 14, 2004
    #17
  18. Nick

    DarkMatter Guest

    On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:15:42 GMT, Darrel Christenson
    <> Gave us:

    >Nick wrote:
    >
    >> I knew the difference between Pan and Scan - Widescreen and do prefer
    >> widescreen but found the site very helpful and your advice. One last
    >> question:
    >>
    >> Am I harming my TV by forcing a 16:9 image into letterbox therefore
    >> distorting the image?

    >
    >The other issue is that for a widescreen to properly handle
    >a 16x9 image you need to be sending it a progressive scan
    >signal via component video cables and have set your tv's
    >input to component. You'll not only get the best picture
    >possible but most 16x9 movies will fill the screen without
    >any stretching going on.
    >
    >
    >Darrel :)
    >


    The DVD player also must have progressive output. Not all do.
     
    DarkMatter, Jan 14, 2004
    #18
  19. Some interesting info, but I'm aware of the fundamental concepts of
    anamorphism and progressive scan. I may get a widescreen projector in the
    next year, and my questions were more on a practical level.

    1. A poster claimed that DVD players wouldn't output unresized anamporphic
    video on anything but the component output. I didn't want to dig out my
    users manual or play with my DVD settings, but I found that hard to believe
    since widescreen TV's predate DVD.

    2. Obviously you can feed three types of video to widescreen TVs. 4/3
    fullscreen, 4/3 letterboxed widescreen, and 4/3 anamorphic widescreen. You
    want fullscreen to be shown in the center with black bars generated on the
    side, you want letterboxed widescreen to be zoomed in, and you want
    anamorphic widescreen to be expanded. Therefore:

    A) Is switching between these modes as easy as pushing a button on a remote,
    or do you have to go into the setup menu?

    B) Are TV's smart enough to switch modes themselves? The lack of digital
    connections precludes digital flags, but can the TV detect the incoming black
    bars and zoom in? Does video without bars coming from the antenna or cable
    box get side letterboxed, or if coming from the DVD player, stretched?

    --

    Monte Castleman, <<Spamfilter in Use>>
    Bloomington, MN to email, remove the "q" from my address
     
    Monte Castleman, Jan 14, 2004
    #19
  20. Monte Castleman wrote:

    >
    > A) Is switching between these modes as easy as pushing a button on a remote,
    > or do you have to go into the setup menu?


    Would probably depend on the company that designed it, I
    have a Mitsubishi tv and there is a mode button on the
    remote that cycles through the 5 picture settings.

    > B) Are TV's smart enough to switch modes themselves? The lack of digital
    > connections precludes digital flags, but can the TV detect the incoming black
    > bars and zoom in?


    Again using my Mits as an example - from cable, vhs, laserdisc
    and dvd, no it does not switch by itself. When I'm feeding it
    a HD broadcast such as Enterprise, Angel, Tru Calling, Miss
    Match, etc. from antenna it does switch automatically between
    picture modes and the content changes from the show to commercials
    and back.

    Write me direct if you'd like with any specific questions I
    can help you with.


    Darrel :)
     
    Darrel Christenson, Jan 14, 2004
    #20
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