Why pre-ordering is dangerous (and often stupid)

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by RichA, Jun 26, 2011.

  1. RichA

    RichA Guest

    RichA, Jun 26, 2011
    #1
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  2. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article
    <>,
    RichA <> wrote:

    > Pre-ordering is like putting money down on a leased car. You'd have
    > to be retarded to do it.


    that must mean you pre-order often.

    > http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/Online_photography_store_in_trouble_
    > news_308275.html


    if you actually read the article, you'd see it has nothing to do with
    pre-ordering. it was a poorly run company and their mistakes affect
    *everyone* who ordered, pre-order or not.

    order or pre-order from b&h or samy's and there won't be a problem.
    nospam, Jun 26, 2011
    #2
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  3. RichA

    PeterN Guest

    PeterN, Jun 26, 2011
    #3
  4. On 6/25/11 PDT 5:17 PM, RichA wrote:
    > Pre-ordering is like putting money down on a leased car. You'd have
    > to be retarded to do it.


    Virtually all leased vehicles require some upfront money on top of the
    first month's lease payment.
    Retarded is making eighteen posts a day, with only a few being true or
    near true.

    --
    lsmft
    John McWilliams, Jun 27, 2011
    #4
  5. In article <iu8l39$1li$>,
    John McWilliams <> wrote:

    > On 6/25/11 PDT 5:17 PM, RichA wrote:
    > > Pre-ordering is like putting money down on a leased car.

    >
    > Virtually all leased vehicles require some upfront money on top of the
    > first month's lease payment.


    In many, perhaps most, cases it is possible to negotiate a deal with no
    upfront money. When this can be done it is often to your advantage even
    if the monthly payments are higher.
    Robert Peirce, Jun 27, 2011
    #5
  6. On 6/27/11 PDT 9:21 AM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    > In article<iu8l39$1li$>,
    > John McWilliams<> wrote:
    >
    >> On 6/25/11 PDT 5:17 PM, RichA wrote:
    >>> Pre-ordering is like putting money down on a leased car.

    >>
    >> Virtually all leased vehicles require some upfront money on top of the
    >> first month's lease payment.

    >
    > In many, perhaps most, cases it is possible to negotiate a deal with no
    > upfront money. When this can be done it is often to your advantage even
    > if the monthly payments are higher.


    I'm sure it can be done in most cases, but equally sure you're going to
    be forking over more in some way shape or form- either it's give-in
    money they were always prepared to ditch, or higher payments that will
    more than make up the time value of money for a normal range of interest
    rates.
    John McWilliams, Jun 28, 2011
    #6
  7. On 6/27/11 PDT 7:26 PM, Rich wrote:
    > John McWilliams<> wrote in news:iub3i9$kuf$1@dont-
    > email.me:
    >
    >> On 6/27/11 PDT 9:21 AM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    >>> In article<iu8l39$1li$>,
    >>> John McWilliams<> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> On 6/25/11 PDT 5:17 PM, RichA wrote:
    >>>>> Pre-ordering is like putting money down on a leased car.
    >>>>
    >>>> Virtually all leased vehicles require some upfront money on top of

    > the
    >>>> first month's lease payment.
    >>>
    >>> In many, perhaps most, cases it is possible to negotiate a deal with

    > no
    >>> upfront money. When this can be done it is often to your advantage

    > even
    >>> if the monthly payments are higher.

    >>
    >> I'm sure it can be done in most cases, but equally sure you're going to
    >> be forking over more in some way shape or form- either it's give-in
    >> money they were always prepared to ditch, or higher payments that will
    >> more than make up the time value of money for a normal range of

    > interest
    >> rates.


    > Leased vehicles only "cost" you if you insist on doing the stupidest
    > thing of all-buying out the vehicle at the end.


    Can you make a more ignorant statement? Buying out at e.o.l could be a
    great deal, a rotten deal and hence stupid, or a mediocre one. Lots of
    factors to be considered at the time.
    John McWilliams, Jun 28, 2011
    #7
  8. RichA

    PeterN Guest

    On 6/27/2011 12:21 PM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    > In article<iu8l39$1li$>,
    > John McWilliams<> wrote:
    >
    >> On 6/25/11 PDT 5:17 PM, RichA wrote:
    >>> Pre-ordering is like putting money down on a leased car.

    >>
    >> Virtually all leased vehicles require some upfront money on top of the
    >> first month's lease payment.

    >
    > In many, perhaps most, cases it is possible to negotiate a deal with no
    > upfront money. When this can be done it is often to your advantage even
    > if the monthly payments are higher.



    Depends on your credit rating, and the nature of the upfront payment.
    But, whether I want to depends on the interest rate and what I can earn
    on my money.

    --
    Peter
    PeterN, Jun 28, 2011
    #8
  9. RichA

    PeterN Guest

    On 6/27/2011 10:26 PM, Rich wrote:

    >
    > Leased vehicles only "cost" you if you insist on doing the stupidest
    > thing of all-buying out the vehicle at the end.



    It's good you're not judgmental.
    I'm glad you don't post a broad based opinion without knowing the facts.

    Just because you don't know the reason doesn't mean that someone else
    may not have a good reason, which makes perfect sense.

    --
    Peter
    PeterN, Jun 28, 2011
    #9
  10. RichA

    PeterN Guest

    On 6/28/2011 1:03 AM, John McWilliams wrote:
    > On 6/27/11 PDT 7:26 PM, Rich wrote:
    >> John McWilliams<> wrote in news:iub3i9$kuf$1@dont-
    >> email.me:
    >>
    >>> On 6/27/11 PDT 9:21 AM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    >>>> In article<iu8l39$1li$>,
    >>>> John McWilliams<> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On 6/25/11 PDT 5:17 PM, RichA wrote:
    >>>>>> Pre-ordering is like putting money down on a leased car.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Virtually all leased vehicles require some upfront money on top of

    >> the
    >>>>> first month's lease payment.
    >>>>
    >>>> In many, perhaps most, cases it is possible to negotiate a deal with

    >> no
    >>>> upfront money. When this can be done it is often to your advantage

    >> even
    >>>> if the monthly payments are higher.
    >>>
    >>> I'm sure it can be done in most cases, but equally sure you're going to
    >>> be forking over more in some way shape or form- either it's give-in
    >>> money they were always prepared to ditch, or higher payments that will
    >>> more than make up the time value of money for a normal range of

    >> interest
    >>> rates.

    >
    >> Leased vehicles only "cost" you if you insist on doing the stupidest
    >> thing of all-buying out the vehicle at the end.

    >
    > Can you make a more ignorant statement? Buying out at e.o.l could be a
    > great deal, a rotten deal and hence stupid, or a mediocre one. Lots of
    > factors to be considered at the time.
    >


    Careful John, now he definitely will try to make a more ignorant statement.

    --
    Peter
    PeterN, Jun 28, 2011
    #10
  11. In article <iub3i9$kuf$>,
    John McWilliams <> wrote:

    > On 6/27/11 PDT 9:21 AM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    > > In article<iu8l39$1li$>,
    > > John McWilliams<> wrote:
    > >
    > >> On 6/25/11 PDT 5:17 PM, RichA wrote:
    > >>> Pre-ordering is like putting money down on a leased car.
    > >>
    > >> Virtually all leased vehicles require some upfront money on top of the
    > >> first month's lease payment.

    > >
    > > In many, perhaps most, cases it is possible to negotiate a deal with no
    > > upfront money. When this can be done it is often to your advantage even
    > > if the monthly payments are higher.

    >
    > I'm sure it can be done in most cases, but equally sure you're going to
    > be forking over more in some way shape or form- either it's give-in
    > money they were always prepared to ditch, or higher payments that will
    > more than make up the time value of money for a normal range of interest
    > rates.


    That is easy to calculate.
    Robert Peirce, Jun 28, 2011
    #11
  12. In article <>,
    Rich <> wrote:

    > Leased vehicles only "cost" you if you insist on doing the stupidest
    > thing of all-buying out the vehicle at the end.


    That's not always true either. Sometimes the buy-out is below market
    and you can flip the car at a profit. That doesn't usually happen but
    it can.

    I haven't checked lately, but with "cash for clunkers" and the recent
    problems in Japan, used car prices are moving up in an alarming fashion.
    It is possible that some currently expiring leases might make a buy-out
    attractive.
    Robert Peirce, Jun 28, 2011
    #12
  13. RichA

    ray Guest

    On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 17:17:54 -0700, RichA wrote:

    > Pre-ordering is like putting money down on a leased car. You'd have to
    > be retarded to do it.
    >
    > http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/

    Online_photography_store_in_trouble_news_308275.html

    So, how is it "dangerous"? It isn't going to kill you or physically harm
    you in any way that I can see.

    Pre-ordering comes in a variety of forms. It's fairly common in several
    hobbies for 'special runs'. In such cases, if you don't pre-order you're
    not going to get one - period. In some cases it is not binding and does
    not require a deposit - it's done to get an idea of the interest.
    ray, Jun 28, 2011
    #13
  14. RichA

    PeterN Guest

    On 6/28/2011 3:20 PM, Alan Browne wrote:

    >
    > No. Unless you're short cash at the start. But you will be paying them
    > that back later on. With interest. So you'd only be winning if you lock
    > in the interest rates and then there is sudden inflation and rising i
    > rates.
    >
    > Leasing cars is rarely, if ever, a smart money move for a personal car.
    >


    Several years ago the price of the car was reduced by about $4k and the
    interest rate was 0% if we leased. that one was a no brainier.


    --
    Peter
    PeterN, Jun 28, 2011
    #14
  15. On 6/28/11 PDT 7:56 AM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    > In article<iub3i9$kuf$>,
    > John McWilliams<> wrote:
    >
    >> On 6/27/11 PDT 9:21 AM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    >>> In article<iu8l39$1li$>,
    >>> John McWilliams<> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> On 6/25/11 PDT 5:17 PM, RichA wrote:
    >>>>> Pre-ordering is like putting money down on a leased car.
    >>>>
    >>>> Virtually all leased vehicles require some upfront money on top of the
    >>>> first month's lease payment.
    >>>
    >>> In many, perhaps most, cases it is possible to negotiate a deal with no
    >>> upfront money. When this can be done it is often to your advantage even
    >>> if the monthly payments are higher.

    >>
    >> I'm sure it can be done in most cases, but equally sure you're going to
    >> be forking over more in some way shape or form- either it's give-in
    >> money they were always prepared to ditch, or higher payments that will
    >> more than make up the time value of money for a normal range of interest
    >> rates.

    >
    > That is easy to calculate.


    Well, sure, if you have the intelligence.....! (and a calculator)

    --
    john mcwilliams
    John McWilliams, Jun 29, 2011
    #15
  16. On 6/28/11 PDT 12:20 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
    > On 2011-06-27 12:21 , Robert Peirce wrote:
    >> In article<iu8l39$1li$>,
    >> John McWilliams<> wrote:
    >>
    >>> On 6/25/11 PDT 5:17 PM, RichA wrote:
    >>>> Pre-ordering is like putting money down on a leased car.
    >>>
    >>> Virtually all leased vehicles require some upfront money on top of the
    >>> first month's lease payment.

    >>
    >> In many, perhaps most, cases it is possible to negotiate a deal with no
    >> upfront money. When this can be done it is often to your advantage even
    >> if the monthly payments are higher.

    >
    > No. Unless you're short cash at the start. But you will be paying them
    > that back later on. With interest. So you'd only be winning if you lock
    > in the interest rates and then there is sudden inflation and rising i
    > rates.
    >
    > Leasing cars is rarely, if ever, a smart money move for a personal car.


    You're good up to that last sentence. Sometimes it is, sometimes it
    ain't. Each deal has to be examined in some detail.
    John McWilliams, Jun 29, 2011
    #16
  17. On 6/28/11 PDT 7:15 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
    > On 2011-06-28 21:12 , John McWilliams wrote:
    >> On 6/28/11 PDT 12:20 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
    >>> On 2011-06-27 12:21 , Robert Peirce wrote:
    >>>> In article<iu8l39$1li$>,
    >>>> John McWilliams<> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On 6/25/11 PDT 5:17 PM, RichA wrote:
    >>>>>> Pre-ordering is like putting money down on a leased car.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Virtually all leased vehicles require some upfront money on top of the
    >>>>> first month's lease payment.
    >>>>
    >>>> In many, perhaps most, cases it is possible to negotiate a deal with no
    >>>> upfront money. When this can be done it is often to your advantage even
    >>>> if the monthly payments are higher.
    >>>
    >>> No. Unless you're short cash at the start. But you will be paying them
    >>> that back later on. With interest. So you'd only be winning if you lock
    >>> in the interest rates and then there is sudden inflation and rising i
    >>> rates.
    >>>
    >>> Leasing cars is rarely, if ever, a smart money move for a personal car.

    >>
    >> You're good up to that last sentence. Sometimes it is, sometimes it
    >> ain't. Each deal has to be examined in some detail.

    >
    > The only smart (money) way to acquire a car is to pay the most you can
    > in down payment, to pay off the car as quickly as possible and finally
    > to use that same car as long as economically possible.


    The "only way", huh?? You presume the choices are lease or finance. What
    about self finance? Opportunity cost of funds lost in downpayment?

    > Leasing has the car devaluing while you are on a fixed payment schedule
    > and having put down a minimal (if any) down payment. The car usually
    > devalues quickly. At the end you have either rented by paying too much
    > per month or can "buy out" the car at a premium over its used value.


    The car depreciates whether you own it or lease, whether you buy it out
    of pocket, via loan, or via lease. The buy out may be more or less than
    the then current market value. Each deal needs examining in light of
    one's personal situation.
    John McWilliams, Jun 29, 2011
    #17
  18. On 6/28/11 PDT 9:42 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
    > On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 18:10:24 -0700, John McWilliams
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> On 6/28/11 PDT 7:56 AM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    >>> In article<iub3i9$kuf$>,
    >>> John McWilliams<> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> On 6/27/11 PDT 9:21 AM, Robert Peirce wrote:
    >>>>> In article<iu8l39$1li$>,
    >>>>> John McWilliams<> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> On 6/25/11 PDT 5:17 PM, RichA wrote:
    >>>>>>> Pre-ordering is like putting money down on a leased car.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Virtually all leased vehicles require some upfront money on top of the
    >>>>>> first month's lease payment.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> In many, perhaps most, cases it is possible to negotiate a deal with no
    >>>>> upfront money. When this can be done it is often to your advantage even
    >>>>> if the monthly payments are higher.
    >>>>
    >>>> I'm sure it can be done in most cases, but equally sure you're going to
    >>>> be forking over more in some way shape or form- either it's give-in
    >>>> money they were always prepared to ditch, or higher payments that will
    >>>> more than make up the time value of money for a normal range of interest
    >>>> rates.
    >>>
    >>> That is easy to calculate.

    >>
    >> Well, sure, if you have the intelligence.....! (and a calculator)

    >
    > HP-12c is what you want.
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-10C_series


    Well, yeah, esp. after I read this
    Often referred to as a tool for "Old-ie Time-ies," critics of the HP-12C
    claim its early 1980s technology and style are antiquated......

    Give me a Bowmar Brain!
    John McWilliams, Jun 29, 2011
    #18
  19. RichA

    PeterN Guest

    On 6/28/2011 10:15 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
    <snip>
    > The only smart (money) way to acquire a car is to pay the most you can
    > in down payment, to pay off the car as quickly as possible and finally
    > to use that same car as long as economically possible.
    >
    > Leasing has the car devaluing while you are on a fixed payment schedule
    > and having put down a minimal (if any) down payment. The car usually
    > devalues quickly. At the end you have either rented by paying too much
    > per month or can "buy out" the car at a premium over its used value.
    >
    > That may fit some people's needs, but it is far from the best money deal.



    I did not expect such a generalization from you. Each proposal has to be
    looked at individually.
    In addition to cost you must figure whether one can use the money to
    earn more money than the out of pocket cost. You also seem to have
    missed the example where leasing was less expensive, from a total out of
    pocket perspective.


    --
    Peter
    PeterN, Jun 29, 2011
    #19
  20. In article <>,
    Alan Browne <> wrote:

    > The only smart (money) way to acquire a car is to pay the most you can
    > in down payment, to pay off the car as quickly as possible and finally
    > to use that same car as long as economically possible.


    Cash is better, if you can do it.

    > Leasing has the car devaluing while you are on a fixed payment schedule
    > and having put down a minimal (if any) down payment. The car usually
    > devalues quickly. At the end you have either rented by paying too much
    > per month or can "buy out" the car at a premium over its used value.
    >
    > That may fit some people's needs, but it is far from the best money deal.


    That's true but I have leased and owned cars. I lease because I tend to
    hang onto cars forever. I recently sold a 1977. If I lease them I have
    to get rid of them. I currently lease a car. It would have been
    cheaper to buy it, but now I know I have to replace it. OTOH, I just
    bought a car I expect to own for the next ten years.
    Robert Peirce, Jun 29, 2011
    #20
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