Why Open Documents are so important

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by thingy, Oct 29, 2005.

  1. thingy

    thingy Guest

    Following on from Korea's anti-trust case.

    MS may throw its toys out of the cot........

    "If the KFTC enters an order requiring Microsoft to remove code or
    redesign Windows uniquely for the Korean market, it might be necessary
    to withdraw Windows from the Korean market or delay offering new
    versions in Korea," Microsoft said in a U.S. regulatory filing on
    Thursday."

    So, if Microsoft withdrew Windows from the Korean market, could Korean
    citizens in the future access their goverment documents saved already in
    Microsoft formats? Extrapolate, please, to Massachusetts.

    http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20051028111756646

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Oct 29, 2005
    #1
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  2. thingy

    steve Guest

    thingy wrote:

    > Following on from Korea's anti-trust case.
    >
    > MS may throw its toys out of the cot........
    >
    > "If the KFTC enters an order requiring Microsoft to remove code or
    > redesign Windows uniquely for the Korean market, it might be necessary
    > to withdraw Windows from the Korean market or delay offering new
    > versions in Korea," Microsoft said in a U.S. regulatory filing on
    > Thursday."
    >
    > So, if Microsoft withdrew Windows from the Korean market, could Korean
    > citizens in the future access their goverment documents saved already in
    > Microsoft formats? Extrapolate, please, to Massachusetts.
    >
    > http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20051028111756646
    >
    > regards
    >
    > Thing


    Excellent point.

    Those open document formats would be VERY importnant when you're confronted
    with a potentially criminal company prepared to hold all of their customers
    in your country to ransom unless you withdraw your prosecution and required
    remedies.
     
    steve, Oct 29, 2005
    #2
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  3. thingy

    Enkidu Guest

    thingy wrote:
    > Following on from Korea's anti-trust case.
    >
    > MS may throw its toys out of the cot........
    >
    > "If the KFTC enters an order requiring Microsoft to remove code or
    > redesign Windows uniquely for the Korean market, it might be necessary
    > to withdraw Windows from the Korean market or delay offering new
    > versions in Korea," Microsoft said in a U.S. regulatory filing on
    > Thursday."
    >
    > So, if Microsoft withdrew Windows from the Korean market, could Korean
    > citizens in the future access their goverment documents saved already in
    > Microsoft formats? Extrapolate, please, to Massachusetts.
    >
    > http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20051028111756646
    >

    "Withdraw from market" means "don't sell any *more*". The
    existing versions will still be around and will still be
    able to view documents already created in that format.

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    Barzoomian the Martian - http://barzoomian.blogspot.com
     
    Enkidu, Oct 29, 2005
    #3
  4. thingy

    Rob J Guest

    In article <>,
    y says...
    > Following on from Korea's anti-trust case.
    >
    > MS may throw its toys out of the cot........
    >
    > "If the KFTC enters an order requiring Microsoft to remove code or
    > redesign Windows uniquely for the Korean market, it might be necessary
    > to withdraw Windows from the Korean market or delay offering new
    > versions in Korea," Microsoft said in a U.S. regulatory filing on
    > Thursday."
    >
    > So, if Microsoft withdrew Windows from the Korean market, could Korean
    > citizens in the future access their goverment documents saved already in
    > Microsoft formats? Extrapolate, please, to Massachusetts.


    Troll, they would keep using whatever they already used to create them.
     
    Rob J, Oct 29, 2005
    #4
  5. thingy

    steve Guest

    Enkidu wrote:

    > "Withdraw from market" means "don't sell any *more*". The
    > existing versions will still be around and will still be
    > able to view documents already created in that format.


    In IT terms, that's a highly undesirable situation.....however you care to
    frame it.

    Eh......

    :)
     
    steve, Oct 29, 2005
    #5
  6. thingy

    steve Guest

    Rob J wrote:

    > In article <>,
    > y says...
    >> Following on from Korea's anti-trust case.
    >>
    >> MS may throw its toys out of the cot........
    >>
    >> "If the KFTC enters an order requiring Microsoft to remove code or
    >> redesign Windows uniquely for the Korean market, it might be necessary
    >> to withdraw Windows from the Korean market or delay offering new
    >> versions in Korea," Microsoft said in a U.S. regulatory filing on
    >> Thursday."
    >>
    >> So, if Microsoft withdrew Windows from the Korean market, could Korean
    >> citizens in the future access their goverment documents saved already in
    >> Microsoft formats? Extrapolate, please, to Massachusetts.

    >
    > Troll, they would keep using whatever they already used to create them.


    No surprise you don't see the problem and rush to defend the multi-billion
    dollar corporation already convicted in the US of illegally maintaining its
    effective monopoly.

    Odd how you always rush to protect the strong from the weak.....

    Typical Rightard.
     
    steve, Oct 29, 2005
    #6
  7. thingy

    Shane Guest

    On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:11:17 +1300, steve wrote:

    > Enkidu wrote:
    >
    >> "Withdraw from market" means "don't sell any *more*". The
    >> existing versions will still be around and will still be
    >> able to view documents already created in that format.

    >
    > In IT terms, that's a highly undesirable situation.....however you care to
    > frame it.
    >
    > Eh......
    >
    > :)


    In anyones book closed standards are a mess for the consumer.
    Imagine if TCP/IP or HTTP was closed, or SMTP
    Theres still a lot of money to be made with open standards, but it relies
    on QoS rather than owning the license.

    --
    Hardware, n.: The parts of a computer system that can be kicked

    The best way to get the right answer on usenet is to post the wrong one.
     
    Shane, Oct 29, 2005
    #7
  8. thingy

    thingy Guest

    Rob J wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > y says...
    >
    >>Following on from Korea's anti-trust case.
    >>
    >>MS may throw its toys out of the cot........
    >>
    >>"If the KFTC enters an order requiring Microsoft to remove code or
    >>redesign Windows uniquely for the Korean market, it might be necessary
    >>to withdraw Windows from the Korean market or delay offering new
    >>versions in Korea," Microsoft said in a U.S. regulatory filing on
    >>Thursday."
    >>
    >>So, if Microsoft withdrew Windows from the Korean market, could Korean
    >>citizens in the future access their goverment documents saved already in
    >>Microsoft formats? Extrapolate, please, to Massachusetts.

    >
    >
    > Troll, they would keep using whatever they already used to create them.


    I find it amazing that you so blindly try and justify MS's business
    excesses, fortunately you are in a tniy minority it seems. Lots of
    Governments have simialr issues and I am sure will be busy ensuring they
    dont get shot in the foot.

    This is yet another showing of MS's unrepentant behavior. These are
    public documents, if a member of the public wants to open them and he or
    she cannot buy word because MS has thrown its toys out and gone
    home...that is wrong and they should not be forced to buy word in the
    first place.

    Another point again showing your complete appreciation of how bigger
    organisations work. If you buy your vesion of Word possibly as a small
    business or home user yes. Effectively though for bigger businesses and
    governments because of the subscription model MS is pushing you end up
    not owning the software you subscribe to it for a number of years, so if
    they leave you cannot renew the subscription, you are stuffed.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Oct 29, 2005
    #8
  9. thingy

    thingy Guest

    Enkidu wrote:
    > thingy wrote:
    >
    >> Following on from Korea's anti-trust case.
    >>
    >> MS may throw its toys out of the cot........
    >>
    >> "If the KFTC enters an order requiring Microsoft to remove code or
    >> redesign Windows uniquely for the Korean market, it might be necessary
    >> to withdraw Windows from the Korean market or delay offering new
    >> versions in Korea," Microsoft said in a U.S. regulatory filing on
    >> Thursday."
    >>
    >> So, if Microsoft withdrew Windows from the Korean market, could Korean
    >> citizens in the future access their goverment documents saved already
    >> in Microsoft formats? Extrapolate, please, to Massachusetts.
    >>
    >> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20051028111756646
    >>

    > "Withdraw from market" means "don't sell any *more*". The existing
    > versions will still be around and will still be able to view documents
    > already created in that format.
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Cliff
    >


    Most large businesses and Governments dont buy software these days (or
    certainly that is MS's plan) the pay a yearly subscription.

    What happens if you lose your hd and your cd of MS office is
    corrupt/damaged? (mine is). I cannot reload Office 97 if I wanted
    to....so I use oOo to look back at old docs....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Oct 29, 2005
    #9
  10. Hello thingy,

    > What happens if you lose your hd and your cd of MS office is
    > corrupt/damaged? (mine is). I cannot reload Office 97 if I wanted
    > to....so I use oOo to look back at old docs....


    ffs there not that unreasnoble

    if your cd is broken ring ms and arrange a replacement (i did for a office
    97 disc). if its an oem install go to your supplier and moan at them.

    ----------------
    the madGeek
     
    Steven Higgan, Oct 29, 2005
    #10
  11. thingy

    Steven H Guest

    Hello thingy,

    > These are
    > public documents, if a member of the public wants to open them and he
    > or she cannot buy word because MS has thrown its toys out and gone
    > home...


    if these 'public documents' are so damn important why are they not in txt
    format, or mabye rtf. surely that cannot be microsofts fault.

    > they [public] should not be forced to buy word in the
    > first place.


    umm... 'word viewer'

    that is if a goverment is so damn incompetent to not have documents in a
    text format in the first place

    > because of the subscription model MS is pushing you
    > end up not owning the software you subscribe to it for a number of
    > years


    wtf, 'end up not owning the software' do you live in a hole somewhere ?

    the only thing you OWN is a right to use the software - where do you get
    this bullshit of 'owning' the software ?

    as for subscriptions, if its cheaper than buying outright where is the problem
    ?


    ----------------
    Steven H
     
    Steven H, Oct 29, 2005
    #11
  12. thingy

    Philip Guest

    Steven Higgan wrote:
    > Hello thingy,
    >
    >> What happens if you lose your hd and your cd of MS office is
    >> corrupt/damaged? (mine is). I cannot reload Office 97 if I wanted
    >> to....so I use oOo to look back at old docs....

    >
    >
    > ffs there not that unreasnoble
    >
    > if your cd is broken ring ms and arrange a replacement (i did for a
    > office 97 disc). if its an oem install go to your supplier and moan at
    > them.
    >

    And if the OEM is out of business?

    Philip
     
    Philip, Oct 29, 2005
    #12
  13. thingy

    Peter Guest

    Steven H wrote:
    >> These are
    >> public documents, if a member of the public wants to open them and he
    >> or she cannot buy word because MS has thrown its toys out and gone
    >> home...

    > if these 'public documents' are so damn important why are they not in txt
    > format, or mabye rtf. surely that cannot be microsofts fault.


    You are exactly right. Important public documents and government records
    should *not* be stored in a proprietary file format.



    Peter
     
    Peter, Oct 29, 2005
    #13
  14. thingy

    thingy Guest

    Steven Higgan wrote:
    > Hello thingy,
    >
    >> What happens if you lose your hd and your cd of MS office is
    >> corrupt/damaged? (mine is). I cannot reload Office 97 if I wanted
    >> to....so I use oOo to look back at old docs....

    >
    >
    > ffs there not that unreasnoble


    Yes they are.

    > if your cd is broken ring ms and arrange a replacement (i did for a
    > office 97 disc). if its an oem install go to your supplier and moan at
    > them.
    >
    > ----------------
    > the madGeek
    >
    >


    The Office 97 was UK bought, I brought it with me when I moved here.
    Last time I asked about an upgrade i was told because it was a UK
    version I was not eligable. In fact I was not even allowed to use my
    British version in NZ they insisted I bought a NZ licence to continue to
    use my UK cd.

    fat chance....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Oct 29, 2005
    #14
  15. thingy

    thingy Guest

    Steven H wrote:
    > Hello thingy,
    >
    >> These are
    >> public documents, if a member of the public wants to open them and he
    >> or she cannot buy word because MS has thrown its toys out and gone
    >> home...

    >
    >
    > if these 'public documents' are so damn important why are they not in
    > txt format, or mabye rtf. surely that cannot be microsofts fault.


    This is the huge argument that is sweeping the world right now. Open
    document format is the preferred method by organisations that do not
    want lock in.

    >> they [public] should not be forced to buy word in the
    >> first place.

    >
    >
    > umm... 'word viewer'


    Works in Linux? no.
    >
    > that is if a goverment is so damn incompetent to not have documents in a
    > text format in the first place


    I huge argument in the USA at the moment is about a US state wanting to
    save in open document and MS is trying to stop them.
    >
    >> because of the subscription model MS is pushing you
    >> end up not owning the software you subscribe to it for a number of
    >> years

    >
    >
    > wtf, 'end up not owning the software' do you live in a hole somewhere ?


    You clearly do if you are not aware of the goings on in the US over ODF.

    > the only thing you OWN is a right to use the software - where do you get
    > this bullshit of 'owning' the software ?


    interesting difference, if I buy a car, it is legally mine, if I buy
    software it is not mine, cannot you see the anomaly?
    >
    > as for subscriptions, if its cheaper than buying outright where is the
    > problem ?


    If MS refuses to sell you a new subscription, or you decide you dont
    want the latest office version because the old one is good enough,
    because it is a subscription you loose the right to use it at all.

    > ----------------
    > Steven H


    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Oct 29, 2005
    #15
  16. thingy

    Enkidu Guest

    thingy wrote:
    > Rob J wrote:
    >
    >> In article <>,
    >> y says...
    >>
    >>> Following on from Korea's anti-trust case.
    >>>
    >>> MS may throw its toys out of the cot........
    >>>
    >>> "If the KFTC enters an order requiring Microsoft to
    >>> remove code or redesign Windows uniquely for the
    >>> Korean market, it might be necessary to withdraw
    >>> Windows from the Korean market or delay offering new
    >>> versions in Korea," Microsoft said in a U.S.
    >>> regulatory filing on Thursday."
    >>>
    >>> So, if Microsoft withdrew Windows from the Korean
    >>> market, could Korean citizens in the future access
    >>> their goverment documents saved already in Microsoft
    >>> formats? Extrapolate, please, to Massachusetts.

    >>
    >> Troll, they would keep using whatever they already used
    >> to create them.

    >
    > I find it amazing that you so blindly try and justify
    > MS's business excesses, fortunately you are in a tniy
    > minority it seems. Lots of Governments have simialr
    > issues and I am sure will be busy ensuring they dont get
    > shot in the foot.
    >

    The implication in the original post was that if MS withdrew
    from the Korean market that all the existing documents would
    immediately be unreadable. This is patently not true.

    Pointing this out is not "blindly justifying MS's business
    excesses".....

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    Barzoomian the Martian - http://barzoomian.blogspot.com
     
    Enkidu, Oct 29, 2005
    #16
  17. thingy

    Enkidu Guest

    steve wrote:
    > Enkidu wrote:
    >
    >> "Withdraw from market" means "don't sell any *more*".
    >> The existing versions will still be around and will
    >> still be able to view documents already created in that
    >> format.

    >
    >
    > In IT terms, that's a highly undesirable
    > situation.....however you care to frame it.
    >

    I wasn't debating that. Just pointing out that existing
    legally installed software would not become illegal
    overnight and would still be able to read existing saved
    documents.

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    Barzoomian the Martian - http://barzoomian.blogspot.com
     
    Enkidu, Oct 29, 2005
    #17
  18. thingy

    Shane Guest

    On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:50:01 +1300, Enkidu wrote:

    > thingy wrote:
    >> Rob J wrote:
    >>
    >>> In article <>,
    >>> y says...
    >>>
    >>>> Following on from Korea's anti-trust case.
    >>>>
    >>>> MS may throw its toys out of the cot........
    >>>>
    >>>> "If the KFTC enters an order requiring Microsoft to
    >>>> remove code or redesign Windows uniquely for the
    >>>> Korean market, it might be necessary to withdraw
    >>>> Windows from the Korean market or delay offering new
    >>>> versions in Korea," Microsoft said in a U.S.
    >>>> regulatory filing on Thursday."
    >>>>
    >>>> So, if Microsoft withdrew Windows from the Korean
    >>>> market, could Korean citizens in the future access
    >>>> their goverment documents saved already in Microsoft
    >>>> formats? Extrapolate, please, to Massachusetts.
    >>>
    >>> Troll, they would keep using whatever they already used
    >>> to create them.

    >>
    >> I find it amazing that you so blindly try and justify
    >> MS's business excesses, fortunately you are in a tniy
    >> minority it seems. Lots of Governments have simialr
    >> issues and I am sure will be busy ensuring they dont get
    >> shot in the foot.
    >>

    > The implication in the original post was that if MS withdrew
    > from the Korean market that all the existing documents would
    > immediately be unreadable. This is patently not true.
    >
    > Pointing this out is not "blindly justifying MS's business
    > excesses".....
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Cliff


    Wouldnt that depend on the licenses of their current document reading
    software.
    ie. IF the license means they cant use that software unless renewed at the
    end of the FY (for example), then, as MS has withdrawn from their market,
    they cant renew their License, and are from then on either
    a) Illegaly using the only software available to open those documents or
    b) Looking for an alternative piece of software to open proprietory
    formats (coming close to license/patent/copyright infringement)or
    c) Unable to open those documents

    Also, I vaguely recall Microsoft previously not releaseing all aspects of
    their API's, so Microsoft products would have 'the edge' in the
    marketplace



    --
    Hardware, n.: The parts of a computer system that can be kicked

    The best way to get the right answer on usenet is to post the wrong one.
     
    Shane, Oct 29, 2005
    #18
  19. thingy

    thingy Guest

    Enkidu wrote:
    > thingy wrote:
    >
    >> Rob J wrote:
    >>
    >>> In article <>,
    >>> y says...
    >>>
    >>>> Following on from Korea's anti-trust case.
    >>>>
    >>>> MS may throw its toys out of the cot........
    >>>>
    >>>> "If the KFTC enters an order requiring Microsoft to
    >>>> remove code or redesign Windows uniquely for the
    >>>> Korean market, it might be necessary to withdraw
    >>>> Windows from the Korean market or delay offering new
    >>>> versions in Korea," Microsoft said in a U.S.
    >>>> regulatory filing on Thursday."
    >>>>
    >>>> So, if Microsoft withdrew Windows from the Korean
    >>>> market, could Korean citizens in the future access
    >>>> their goverment documents saved already in Microsoft
    >>>> formats? Extrapolate, please, to Massachusetts.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Troll, they would keep using whatever they already used
    >>> to create them.

    >>
    >>
    >> I find it amazing that you so blindly try and justify
    >> MS's business excesses, fortunately you are in a tniy
    >> minority it seems. Lots of Governments have simialr
    >> issues and I am sure will be busy ensuring they dont get
    >> shot in the foot.
    >>

    > The implication in the original post was that if MS withdrew
    > from the Korean market that all the existing documents would
    > immediately be unreadable. This is patently not true.
    >
    > Pointing this out is not "blindly justifying MS's business
    > excesses".....
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Cliff
    >


    http://slashdot.org/articles/05/10/29/1852205.shtml?tid=185&tid=187&tid=98

    "...........vendors from BEA to Microsoft are eager to take up the blunt
    cudgel of subscription licensing, which merely asserts that, if you
    don't pay up again at the end of the year, your software stops working.
    The best way to deploy the mechanism of subscription licensing, of
    course, is as a hosted service, because it gives the software vendor the
    ability to instantly turn off the software-on-tap if the renewal is not
    forthcoming........."

    from,

    http://blogs.zdnet.com/SAAS/index.php?p=53

    "....The first step was discovering that consumers can be persuaded to
    adopt a new playback medium every few years or so, necessitating the
    repurchase of their entire back catalog on the new format. As David
    Berlind has been explaining in several recent blog posts, the latest
    wheeze is the use of digital restrictions management (DRM) technology to
    erect artificial barriers between different format generations (or even
    contemporaneous implementations by different vendors).........."

    "..........Perhaps the most notorious example of this approach is
    Microsoft Software Assurance, which promised free upgrades within the
    term of the program, and then largely failed to deliver them. But then,
    that's par for the course with a vendor that says
    'software-as-a-service' but means
    'software-as-a-privilege-you-should-be-darned-grateful-for.'
    Now that no once-bitten-twice-shy customer is going to touch Software
    Assurance with a bargepole again, Microsoft (to pick just one example
    out of many established software vendors facing dwindling licence and
    maintenance revenues) ......."

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Oct 30, 2005
    #19
  20. thingy

    Enkidu Guest

    thingy wrote:
    > Enkidu wrote:
    >
    >> thingy wrote:
    >>
    >>> Rob J wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> In article <>,
    >>>> y says...
    >>>>
    >>>>> Following on from Korea's anti-trust case.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> MS may throw its toys out of the cot........
    >>>>>
    >>>>> "If the KFTC enters an order requiring Microsoft to
    >>>>> remove code or redesign Windows uniquely for the
    >>>>> Korean market, it might be necessary to withdraw
    >>>>> Windows from the Korean market or delay offering new
    >>>>> versions in Korea," Microsoft said in a U.S.
    >>>>> regulatory filing on Thursday."
    >>>>>
    >>>>> So, if Microsoft withdrew Windows from the Korean
    >>>>> market, could Korean citizens in the future access
    >>>>> their goverment documents saved already in Microsoft
    >>>>> formats? Extrapolate, please, to Massachusetts.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Troll, they would keep using whatever they already used
    >>>> to create them.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> I find it amazing that you so blindly try and justify
    >>> MS's business excesses, fortunately you are in a tniy
    >>> minority it seems. Lots of Governments have simialr
    >>> issues and I am sure will be busy ensuring they dont get
    >>> shot in the foot.
    >>>

    >> The implication in the original post was that if MS withdrew
    >> from the Korean market that all the existing documents would
    >> immediately be unreadable. This is patently not true.
    >>
    >> Pointing this out is not "blindly justifying MS's business
    >> excesses".....
    >>
    >> Cheers,
    >>
    >> Cliff
    >>

    >
    > http://slashdot.org/articles/05/10/29/1852205.shtml?tid=185&tid=187&tid=98
    >
    > "...........vendors from BEA to Microsoft are eager to take up the blunt
    > cudgel of subscription licensing, which merely asserts that, if you
    > don't pay up again at the end of the year, your software stops working.
    > The best way to deploy the mechanism of subscription licensing, of
    > course, is as a hosted service, because it gives the software vendor the
    > ability to instantly turn off the software-on-tap if the renewal is not
    > forthcoming........."
    >
    > from,
    >
    > http://blogs.zdnet.com/SAAS/index.php?p=53
    >

    Yes, but Microsoft software does not work that way. It may
    become 'illegal', but it doesn't stop working.

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    Barzoomian the Martian - http://barzoomian.blogspot.com
     
    Enkidu, Oct 30, 2005
    #20
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