why major brands got out of the market?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Mr.Bolshoyhuy, Sep 7, 2006.

  1. Seems a lot of brands/manufacturers have gotten out of the digital
    camera market.
    Some made cameras, but no longer do; Others still do, but no one sells
    them, such as Casio, Polaroid, and Ricoh.
    Here is a partial list: AGFA, Contax, Epson, JVC, Konica-Minolta,
    Kyocera, Sanyo, Toshiba.
    All big names. Whats going on here?

    We are left with these. However, I do not like proprietary flash cards,
    anything other than CF or SD.
    P&S: Fuji & Olympus still use xD, and Sony uses MemoryStick (Canon
    switched to SD in '95).
    That leaves: Nikon, Canon, Kodak, Panasonic, Pentax as the only
    choices.

    PS: why is CF used in DSLRs instead of SD?
     
    Mr.Bolshoyhuy, Sep 7, 2006
    #1
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  2. Mr.Bolshoyhuy

    pltrgyst Guest

    On 6 Sep 2006 19:56:35 -0700, "Mr.Bolshoyhuy" <> wrote:

    >.... Others still do, but no one sells
    >them, such as Casio, Polaroid, and Ricoh.


    Casio is sold everywhere I look at cameras, including Best Buy and CompUSA.

    >That leaves: Nikon, Canon, Kodak, Panasonic, Pentax as the only
    >choices.
    >
    >PS: why is CF used in DSLRs instead of SD?


    Greater capacity, but slrs are starting to go SD.

    -- Larry
     
    pltrgyst, Sep 7, 2006
    #2
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  3. Mr.Bolshoyhuy

    DHB Guest

    On 6 Sep 2006 19:56:35 -0700, "Mr.Bolshoyhuy" <>
    wrote:

    >Seems a lot of brands/manufacturers have gotten out of the digital
    >camera market.
    >Some made cameras, but no longer do; Others still do, but no one sells
    >them, such as Casio, Polaroid, and Ricoh.
    >Here is a partial list: AGFA, Contax, Epson, JVC, Konica-Minolta,
    >Kyocera, Sanyo, Toshiba.
    >All big names. Whats going on here?
    >
    >We are left with these. However, I do not like proprietary flash cards,
    >anything other than CF or SD.
    >P&S: Fuji & Olympus still use xD, and Sony uses MemoryStick (Canon
    >switched to SD in '95).
    >That leaves: Nikon, Canon, Kodak, Panasonic, Pentax as the only
    >choices.
    >
    >PS: why is CF used in DSLRs instead of SD?


    SD has largely replaced CF in many consumer P&S lines mainly
    for 2 reasons:

    <1> SD flash cards are smaller which is a significant advantage to
    using them in small & ultra thin cameras.

    <2> The main reason is that SD flash cards are *Idiot/fool/mistake
    proof*! By this I mean to say that it's possible to insert a CF into
    a camera or memory card reader sideways & if forced, damage 1 or more
    of the 50 pins inside the camera or reader.

    You can't fit an SD card in sideways & if you manage to get it
    in upside down & or backwards, it simply won't work but neither the
    camera, reader or card will be damaged. Thus possible problems are
    prevented for both the manufacturers & the consumers.

    Most DSLR's need both fast & high capacity flash memory &
    until recently this was almost the exclusive domain of CF cards. Now
    that SD cards have just reached 8GB, we may begin to see more DSLRs
    moving over to SD or (I hope) CF & SD slots within the DSLR.

    This is like the best of both worlds where you can select the
    primary flash card slot & have the camera automatically switch to the
    other if the 1st fills up. The camera would warn you that it's
    switched & you can either stop & change out the card of choice or
    continue on until there is a break in the action so you don't miss
    capturing something because you *had to* change cards.

    Just my opinion but I think you will find that the logic is
    sound & I hope most DSLR manufacturers see it the same way.

    Last point on having both CF & SD slots in a DSLR manufacture
    like Canon is that it would allow the same SD cards to be used in both
    their P&S & DSLR cameras for customers that own both.

    My Olympus C7070WZ has both a CF slot & xD slot & I can select
    to switch between the 2 with a single button press on the camera.
    It's not an automatic roll over but it's a lot faster than swapping CF
    cards, especially if it happens when there is action you don't want to
    miss. Not a big fan of xD cards but they work & I use them in both my
    Olympus C7070WZ & Fuji F11 & it helps that they are now available in
    2GB.

    Hope this helps answer your last question.

    Respectfully, DHB



    "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
    or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
    is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
    to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
     
    DHB, Sep 7, 2006
    #3
  4. Mr.Bolshoyhuy

    Rob Guest

    DHB wrote:
    > On 6 Sep 2006 19:56:35 -0700, "Mr.Bolshoyhuy" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Seems a lot of brands/manufacturers have gotten out of the digital
    >> camera market.
    >> Some made cameras, but no longer do; Others still do, but no one sells
    >> them, such as Casio, Polaroid, and Ricoh.
    >> Here is a partial list: AGFA, Contax, Epson, JVC, Konica-Minolta,
    >> Kyocera, Sanyo, Toshiba.
    >> All big names. Whats going on here?
    >>
    >> We are left with these. However, I do not like proprietary flash cards,
    >> anything other than CF or SD.
    >> P&S: Fuji & Olympus still use xD, and Sony uses MemoryStick (Canon
    >> switched to SD in '95).
    >> That leaves: Nikon, Canon, Kodak, Panasonic, Pentax as the only
    >> choices.
    >>
    >> PS: why is CF used in DSLRs instead of SD?

    >
    > SD has largely replaced CF in many consumer P&S lines mainly
    > for 2 reasons:
    >
    > <1> SD flash cards are smaller which is a significant advantage to
    > using them in small & ultra thin cameras.
    >
    > <2> The main reason is that SD flash cards are *Idiot/fool/mistake
    > proof*! By this I mean to say that it's possible to insert a CF into
    > a camera or memory card reader sideways & if forced, damage 1 or more
    > of the 50 pins inside the camera or reader.
    >
    > You can't fit an SD card in sideways & if you manage to get it
    > in upside down & or backwards, it simply won't work but neither the
    > camera, reader or card will be damaged. Thus possible problems are
    > prevented for both the manufacturers & the consumers.
    >
    > Most DSLR's need both fast & high capacity flash memory &
    > until recently this was almost the exclusive domain of CF cards. Now
    > that SD cards have just reached 8GB, we may begin to see more DSLRs
    > moving over to SD or (I hope) CF & SD slots within the DSLR.
    >
    > This is like the best of both worlds where you can select the
    > primary flash card slot & have the camera automatically switch to the
    > other if the 1st fills up. The camera would warn you that it's
    > switched & you can either stop & change out the card of choice or
    > continue on until there is a break in the action so you don't miss
    > capturing something because you *had to* change cards.
    >
    > Just my opinion but I think you will find that the logic is
    > sound & I hope most DSLR manufacturers see it the same way.
    >
    > Last point on having both CF & SD slots in a DSLR manufacture
    > like Canon is that it would allow the same SD cards to be used in both
    > their P&S & DSLR cameras for customers that own both.
    >
    > My Olympus C7070WZ has both a CF slot & xD slot & I can select
    > to switch between the 2 with a single button press on the camera.
    > It's not an automatic roll over but it's a lot faster than swapping CF
    > cards, especially if it happens when there is action you don't want to
    > miss. Not a big fan of xD cards but they work & I use them in both my
    > Olympus C7070WZ & Fuji F11 & it helps that they are now available in
    > 2GB.
    >
    > Hope this helps answer your last question.
    >
    > Respectfully, DHB
    >
    >
    >
    > "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
    > or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
    > is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
    > to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918



    I for one thought this was great information. Thank you for telling it.

    Rob
     
    Rob, Sep 7, 2006
    #4
  5. Mr.Bolshoyhuy

    SimonLW Guest

    "Mr.Bolshoyhuy" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Seems a lot of brands/manufacturers have gotten out of the digital
    > camera market.
    > Some made cameras, but no longer do; Others still do, but no one sells
    > them, such as Casio, Polaroid, and Ricoh.
    > Here is a partial list: AGFA, Contax, Epson, JVC, Konica-Minolta,
    > Kyocera, Sanyo, Toshiba.
    > All big names. Whats going on here?
    >
    > We are left with these. However, I do not like proprietary flash cards,
    > anything other than CF or SD.
    > P&S: Fuji & Olympus still use xD, and Sony uses MemoryStick (Canon
    > switched to SD in '95).
    > That leaves: Nikon, Canon, Kodak, Panasonic, Pentax as the only
    > choices.
    >
    > PS: why is CF used in DSLRs instead of SD?
    >

    The digital market is highly competitive. As prices dropped and new and
    better models were introduced, it is very hard for companies to make a
    profit if they didn't already have a strong foothold. The market is
    saturated with a large selection of models. Many wisely decided to exit that
    market altogether.

    In 2003 Canon began the dSLR craze with the low priced dRebel. Now with low
    and mid ranged dSLRs highly competitive, We saw the transfer of the Minolta
    brand to Sony and Pentax and Samsung working together to stay viable.

    As far as the cards, the market is so strong to allow for several formats.
    Price and capacity of CF will keep it around. It is plenty small enough for
    pro oriented cameras. SD, IMHO, is the best format right now. Plenty small
    for compact cameras and capacities well beyond the GB range. It also has a
    compatible mini version.
    -S
     
    SimonLW, Sep 7, 2006
    #5
  6. Mr.Bolshoyhuy

    m Ransley Guest

    I dont know where you shop, Casio is popular and sold most anywhere,
    Polaroid is cheap and at my pharmacy, Epson is very expensive so not in
    demand but I can easily find it. JVC camcorders are at Best Buy. Big
    chains cant carry all brands, just the most popular.
     
    m Ransley, Sep 7, 2006
    #6
  7. Mr.Bolshoyhuy

    Marvin Guest

    Mr.Bolshoyhuy wrote:
    > Seems a lot of brands/manufacturers have gotten out of the digital
    > camera market.
    > Some made cameras, but no longer do; Others still do, but no one sells
    > them, such as Casio, Polaroid, and Ricoh.
    > Here is a partial list: AGFA, Contax, Epson, JVC, Konica-Minolta,
    > Kyocera, Sanyo, Toshiba.
    > All big names. Whats going on here?
    >
    > We are left with these. However, I do not like proprietary flash cards,
    > anything other than CF or SD.
    > P&S: Fuji & Olympus still use xD, and Sony uses MemoryStick (Canon
    > switched to SD in '95).
    > That leaves: Nikon, Canon, Kodak, Panasonic, Pentax as the only
    > choices.

    <snip>
    There is a rule, developed at General Electric, that only
    the top three companies in any market are profitable. The
    logic is that the smaller companies have to spend too high a
    percentage of their sales income on R&D and marketing, just
    to keep up. Smaller companies sometimes survive by carving
    out new markets with innovations that can be protected by
    patents. Others persist on hope, as long as that lasts. A
    few make super-premium products to sell at very high cost,
    sometimes products that people buy for conspicuous consumption.

    The bigger a company is, the harder it is for them to change
    when new technology changes hte nature of the market, which
    has happened in photography. There are some classic
    examples. For example, not one of the companies that used
    to make vacuum tubes for electronics made the transition to
    semiconductors.
     
    Marvin, Sep 7, 2006
    #7
  8. In article <>,
    Marvin <> wrote:
    >The bigger a company is, the harder it is for them to change
    >when new technology changes hte nature of the market, which
    >has happened in photography. There are some classic
    >examples. For example, not one of the companies that used
    >to make vacuum tubes for electronics made the transition to
    >semiconductors.


    Except that Kodak and Fuji make quite a lot digital cameras. And a
    significant fraction of the companies that made analog cameras also
    produce(d) digital cameras.


    --
    That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
    could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
    by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
     
    Philip Homburg, Sep 7, 2006
    #8
  9. Mr.Bolshoyhuy

    Guest


    > them, such as Casio, Polaroid, and Ricoh.
    > Here is a partial list: Epson,


    i like their printer

    >JVC


    i like theiraudio players


    > Kyocera


    i like their cell phones

    > Sanyo


    i love their microwaves

    >Toshiba.


    i love their gigabeat
     
    , Sep 8, 2006
    #9
  10. Mr.Bolshoyhuy

    QX Guest

    On 6 Sep 2006 19:56:35 -0700, "Mr.Bolshoyhuy" <>
    wrote:

    >Seems a lot of brands/manufacturers have gotten out of the digital
    >camera market.
    >Some made cameras, but no longer do
    >Here is a partial list: AGFA, Contax, Epson, JVC, Konica-Minolta,
    >Kyocera, Sanyo, Toshiba.
    >All big names. Whats going on here?


    Konica-Minolta (KMMI) is very active with their line of Digital &
    Computed Radiography products for the medical market. I use their
    Regius-IM/XPress CR systems at work and it's really awesome as far as
    image quality, speed, and user friendliness.
    http://kmmi.konicaminolta.us/
     
    QX, Sep 8, 2006
    #10
  11. Mr.Bolshoyhuy

    QX Guest

    On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 05:29:52 -0700, QX <> wrote:

    >On 6 Sep 2006 19:56:35 -0700, "Mr.Bolshoyhuy" <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>Seems a lot of brands/manufacturers have gotten out of the digital
    >>camera market.
    >>Some made cameras, but no longer do
    >>Here is a partial list: AGFA, Contax, Epson, JVC, Konica-Minolta,
    >>Kyocera, Sanyo, Toshiba.
    >>All big names. Whats going on here?

    >
    >Konica-Minolta (KMMI) is very active with their line of Digital &
    >Computed Radiography products for the medical market. I use their
    >Regius-IM/XPress CR systems at work and it's really awesome as far as
    >image quality, speed, and user friendliness.
    >http://kmmi.konicaminolta.us/


    Correction:
    Make that Konica-Minolta Medical Imaging (KMMI).
     
    QX, Sep 8, 2006
    #11
  12. Mr.Bolshoyhuy

    Stewy Guest

    In article <>,
    wrote:

    > > them, such as Casio, Polaroid, and Ricoh.
    > > Here is a partial list: Epson,

    >
    > i like their printer


    Unfortunately they cheat you on every cart you buy.
    >
    > >JVC

    >
    > i like theiraudio players


    Steer clear of their VHS/DVD/HDD combos, though
     
    Stewy, Sep 9, 2006
    #12
  13. It is alleged that Philip Homburg claimed:

    > In article <>,
    > Marvin <> wrote:
    > >The bigger a company is, the harder it is for them to change
    > >when new technology changes hte nature of the market, which
    > >has happened in photography. There are some classic
    > >examples. For example, not one of the companies that used
    > >to make vacuum tubes for electronics made the transition to
    > >semiconductors.

    >
    > Except that Kodak and Fuji make quite a lot digital cameras. And a
    > significant fraction of the companies that made analog cameras also
    > produce(d) digital cameras.


    And some have transitioned almost entirely to digital. Didn't Nikon
    dump the entire middle-range on film cameras this year, keeping only
    the el-cheapos and high-ends?

    --
    Jeffrey Kaplan www.gordol.org
    The from userid is killfiled Send personal mail to gordol

    "Those who enter the country illegally violate the law." - George W.
    Bush, November 2005 re: describing illegal immigrants
     
    Jeffrey Kaplan, Sep 9, 2006
    #13
  14. It is alleged that Mr.Bolshoyhuy claimed:

    > Seems a lot of brands/manufacturers have gotten out of the digital
    > camera market.
    > Some made cameras, but no longer do; Others still do, but no one sells
    > them, such as Casio, Polaroid, and Ricoh.


    I got a Casio camera at Ritz only a few months ago. They had about a
    half-dozen models on display. I think they had some Ricohs as well.

    > Here is a partial list: AGFA, Contax, Epson, JVC, Konica-Minolta,
    > Kyocera, Sanyo, Toshiba.
    > All big names. Whats going on here?


    I've never seen a Kyocera camera, ever. Nor JVC or Toshiba. From what
    I've seen, out on the fringes of things, Minolta has been a slowly
    dying brand ever since they failed to make it in the autofocus SLR
    market, eventually being acquired by Konica, and now apparently Sony(!)
    if Sony's new DSLR is any indication.

    > We are left with these. However, I do not like proprietary flash cards,
    > anything other than CF or SD.
    > P&S: Fuji & Olympus still use xD, and Sony uses MemoryStick (Canon


    I think xD was supposed to be the "even smaller form factor"
    replacement to SD and just never really caught on. IOW, it's not a
    proprietary format, it's just widely used. MemoryStick, however...
    that's the main reason why I eventually replaced my Sony ultracompact
    with the Casio. And then discovered that its speed and picture quality
    means I can use it to also replace my Sony regular-compact.

    > PS: why is CF used in DSLRs instead of SD?


    Size and speed would be my guess. Until very recently, SD couldn't
    touch CF capacities, and likewise the speed issue is only recently
    getting even. Plus, DSLRs have the physical size to hold a CF card and
    the compacts don't.

    --
    Jeffrey Kaplan www.gordol.org
    The from userid is killfiled Send personal mail to gordol

    "Ambassador Delenn remains indisposed." "Indisposed? She's in a
    cocoon!" "Yes." (Lennier and Amb. Mollari, B5 "Revelations")
     
    Jeffrey Kaplan, Sep 9, 2006
    #14
  15. Mr.Bolshoyhuy

    John Turco Guest

    Marvin wrote:

    <edited, for brevity>

    > The bigger a company is, the harder it is for them to change
    > when new technology changes hte nature of the market, which
    > has happened in photography. There are some classic
    > examples. For example, not one of the companies that used
    > to make vacuum tubes for electronics made the transition to
    > semiconductors.



    Hello, Marvin:

    Are you sure about this? I find it hard to believe, that no tube
    manufacturer made the "transition to transistors!" <g>


    Cordially,
    John Turco <>
     
    John Turco, Sep 11, 2006
    #15
  16. Mr.Bolshoyhuy

    John Turco Guest

    Stewy wrote:
    >
    > In article <>,
    > wrote:
    >
    > > > them, such as Casio, Polaroid, and Ricoh.
    > > > Here is a partial list: Epson,

    > >
    > > i like their printer

    >
    > Unfortunately they cheat you on every cart you buy.
    > >
    > > >JVC

    > >
    > > i like theiraudio players

    >
    > Steer clear of their VHS/DVD/HDD combos, though



    Hello, Stewy:

    So sad, but true, about Epson!


    Cordially,
    John Turco <>
     
    John Turco, Sep 11, 2006
    #16
  17. Mr.Bolshoyhuy

    Neil Ellwood Guest

    On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 07:56:29 -0400, John Turco wrote:

    > Marvin wrote:
    >
    > <edited, for brevity>
    >
    >> The bigger a company is, the harder it is for them to change
    >> when new technology changes hte nature of the market, which
    >> has happened in photography. There are some classic
    >> examples. For example, not one of the companies that used
    >> to make vacuum tubes for electronics made the transition to
    >> semiconductors.

    >
    >
    > Hello, Marvin:
    >
    > Are you sure about this? I find it hard to believe, that no tube
    > manufacturer made the "transition to transistors!" <g>
    >
    >
    > Cordially,
    > John Turco <>

    Yes - Phillips (of Eindhoven) used to make valves (Mullard Ltd was the
    subsidiary in the UK) and then made transistors.

    --
    Neil
    Delete l to reply
     
    Neil Ellwood, Sep 11, 2006
    #17
  18. Mr.Bolshoyhuy

    ASAAR Guest

    On 11 Sep 2006 07:56:29 EDT, John Turco wrote:

    >> The bigger a company is, the harder it is for them to change
    >> when new technology changes hte nature of the market, which
    >> has happened in photography. There are some classic
    >> examples. For example, not one of the companies that used
    >> to make vacuum tubes for electronics made the transition to
    >> semiconductors.

    >
    >
    > Hello, Marvin:
    >
    > Are you sure about this? I find it hard to believe, that no tube
    > manufacturer made the "transition to transistors!" <g>


    Although I can't say for sure, I'd guess that Raytheon made both.
    Fairchild made memory chips but I don't know if they ever made
    tubes. RCA made tubes, I believe, and I know that they produced
    computer chips. Their early COSMAC 4-bit cpu with its innovative
    architecture was one of the first.
     
    ASAAR, Sep 11, 2006
    #18
  19. Mr.Bolshoyhuy

    Paul J Gans Guest

    ASAAR <> wrote:
    >On 11 Sep 2006 07:56:29 EDT, John Turco wrote:


    >>> The bigger a company is, the harder it is for them to change
    >>> when new technology changes hte nature of the market, which
    >>> has happened in photography. There are some classic
    >>> examples. For example, not one of the companies that used
    >>> to make vacuum tubes for electronics made the transition to
    >>> semiconductors.

    >>
    >>
    >> Hello, Marvin:
    >>
    >> Are you sure about this? I find it hard to believe, that no tube
    >> manufacturer made the "transition to transistors!" <g>


    > Although I can't say for sure, I'd guess that Raytheon made both.
    >Fairchild made memory chips but I don't know if they ever made
    >tubes. RCA made tubes, I believe, and I know that they produced
    >computer chips. Their early COSMAC 4-bit cpu with its innovative
    >architecture was one of the first.


    I think that the point was that dominance moved to other
    companies. RCA, which was the industry giant, basically
    sank without a trace in spite of some feeble efforts in
    producing chips.

    The early chip leader in the US was Texas Instruments which
    produced a full line of ICs back in the days when a CPU
    board might contain about 100 chips. Then they too lost
    the lead.

    ---- Paul J. Gans
     
    Paul J Gans, Sep 12, 2006
    #19
  20. Mr.Bolshoyhuy

    ASAAR Guest

    On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 03:06:31 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans wrote:

    >> Although I can't say for sure, I'd guess that Raytheon made both.
    >> Fairchild made memory chips but I don't know if they ever made
    >> tubes. RCA made tubes, I believe, and I know that they produced
    >> computer chips. Their early COSMAC 4-bit cpu with its innovative
    >> architecture was one of the first.

    >
    > I think that the point was that dominance moved to other
    > companies. RCA, which was the industry giant, basically
    > sank without a trace in spite of some feeble efforts in
    > producing chips.


    That's a valid point. If only it was the one that was made. :)


    > The early chip leader in the US was Texas Instruments which
    > produced a full line of ICs back in the days when a CPU
    > board might contain about 100 chips. Then they too lost
    > the lead.


    And another maker of mini and micro computers, and I was once
    interested in their 99000 microcomputer chip set. Aren't they still
    one of the larger producers of DSPs, or have they lost the lead
    there as well?
     
    ASAAR, Sep 12, 2006
    #20
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