Why does the Espon 2200 use colored inks to produce muddy "B/W" prints?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by JC Dill, Mar 10, 2005.

  1. JC  Dill

    JC Dill Guest

    For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
    life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
    albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
    b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
    cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
    Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
    why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
    images.

    If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
    doesn't.

    The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
    the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
    printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
    "unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
    Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
    prints. I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
    the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
    thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
    grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
    the darker gray fields.

    My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
    data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
    when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
    white only"?

    I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
    sense.

    I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.


    TIA

    jc
     
    JC Dill, Mar 10, 2005
    #1
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  2. JC  Dill

    CWatters Guest

    "JC Dill" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    > printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
    > data?


    Most printers have just one black cart and have to use "tricks" to make
    shades of grey. One way is to use a pattern of dots like a newspaper but
    this reduces resolution. Most printers use a mixture of colours to "help"
    make shades of grey without reducing resolution. Some printers do a good job
    of this and produce neutral B/W prints, others have a warm or cold tone or
    even a positive colour tint. You can eliminate the cast by selecting B/W
    only but you loose resolution. Hence Epsons comment.

    Epson added a light grey to the 2200/2100 to try and improve the B/W
    capability but it can only do so much. To improve matters you need to
    carefully tune the settings of your printer.

    Try this site for tips on how to get the best B/W out of it...

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/2200-bw.shtml

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/2200-techniques.shtml

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/2200black.shtml
     
    CWatters, Mar 10, 2005
    #2
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  3. JC  Dill

    Owamanga Guest

    On 10 Mar 2005 08:58:38 -0800, "JC Dill" <> wrote:

    >For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
    >life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
    >albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
    >b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
    >cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
    > Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
    >why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
    >images.


    If you force the printer to use just black ink it'll look even worse,
    believe me. It does this for resolution/tonal depth reasons.

    >If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
    >doesn't.


    I'm not going to waste your or my time telling you all the stuff you
    can try to make it better because you may well never be satisfied
    (many people aren't). Here's how you can get perfect 8x10 B&W's on
    decent resin-coated professional photographic paper for $2.49 each.
    200 Photos will cost about $500, but dad's worth it isn't he? And when
    he pops off, you'll get to keep the collection.

    http://www.mpix.com

    >The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
    >the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
    >printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
    >"unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
    >Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
    >prints.


    Ah, so you did try that. Ugly eh?

    > I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
    >the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
    >thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
    >grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
    >the darker gray fields.


    Yep.

    >My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    >printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
    >data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
    >when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
    >white only"?


    It can't dither the black as smoothly is it can by mixing colors to
    give you the tonal range you need. If the printer was armed with a
    black cartridge plus 3 levels of gray (instead of CYM) then it could
    do a decent job.

    HEY, SOMEONE SHOULD MAKE THIS CARTRIDGE! - Just make 3 or 5 pigment
    inks that have the same tonal density as the Yellow, Magenta and Cyan,
    (more in 6 color systems) but keep them neutral gray and you'll get
    people buying a second printer just for B&W - no mods to the driver
    required.

    >I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
    >sense.


    Mine probably doesn't either. It doesn't matter, use mpix. Compare to
    paper and color ink costs for 200 sheets, mpix starts to look mighty
    good value, and the prints look infinitely better (full bleed too).

    Okay, if you really want to know, here is an article on why they use
    the color inks:

    Profits.

    (kidding)

    here it is...

    http://www.piezography.com/shutterbug1.html

    >I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    >replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.


    As do many.

    --
    Owamanga!
    http://www.pbase.com/owamanga
     
    Owamanga, Mar 10, 2005
    #3
  4. JC  Dill

    Guest

    In rec.photo.digital JC Dill <> wrote:

    > My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    > printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO
    > color data? Why does the printer think that it should be using
    > colored ink when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix
    > of black and white only"?


    Because to use only the black ink is much worse. The coloured inks
    give you much better tonality.

    > I've asked this question before and never received an answer that
    > makes sense.


    OK, here's an answer that makes sense: making perfectly neutral
    greyscale prints on an inkjet is really hard.

    > I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    > replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior
    > unacceptable.


    There are three ways to fix this:

    1. Accurate colour profiles. With a good profile for your ink and
    paper you can get a decent greyscale.

    2. Print using a RIP. This is expensive, but gives much better
    control of generation of greyscales.

    3. Use small gamut inksets. See http://www.lyson.com/small-gamut.html

    Andrew.
     
    , Mar 10, 2005
    #4
  5. JC  Dill

    Al Dykes Guest

    In article <>,
    <> wrote:
    >In rec.photo.digital JC Dill <> wrote:
    >
    >> My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    >> printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO
    >> color data? Why does the printer think that it should be using
    >> colored ink when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix
    >> of black and white only"?

    >
    >Because to use only the black ink is much worse. The coloured inks
    >give you much better tonality.
    >
    >> I've asked this question before and never received an answer that
    >> makes sense.

    >
    >OK, here's an answer that makes sense: making perfectly neutral
    >greyscale prints on an inkjet is really hard.
    >
    >> I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    >> replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior
    >> unacceptable.

    >
    >There are three ways to fix this:
    >
    >1. Accurate colour profiles. With a good profile for your ink and
    > paper you can get a decent greyscale.
    >
    >2. Print using a RIP. This is expensive, but gives much better
    > control of generation of greyscales.
    >
    >3. Use small gamut inksets. See http://www.lyson.com/small-gamut.html
    >
    >Andrew.




    Ink systems for B&W printing on Epson printers. www.piezography.com
    --

    a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

    Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.
     
    Al Dykes, Mar 10, 2005
    #5
  6. JC  Dill

    rafeb Guest

    Re: Why does the Espon 2200 use colored inks to produce muddy "B/W"prints?

    Owamanga wrote:

    > HEY, SOMEONE SHOULD MAKE THIS CARTRIDGE! - Just make 3 or 5 pigment
    > inks that have the same tonal density as the Yellow, Magenta and Cyan,
    > (more in 6 color systems) but keep them neutral gray and you'll get
    > people buying a second printer just for B&W - no mods to the driver
    > required.



    It's been done. Search for limited-gamut inksets.
    Lyson has them, and I think maybe MIS. Mostly for
    Epsons, though.


    rafe b.
    http://www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    rafeb, Mar 10, 2005
    #6
  7. JC  Dill

    Bubbabob Guest

    lid wrote:

    > In rec.photo.digital JC Dill <> wrote:
    >
    >> My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    >> printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO
    >> color data? Why does the printer think that it should be using
    >> colored ink when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix
    >> of black and white only"?

    >
    > Because to use only the black ink is much worse. The coloured inks
    > give you much better tonality.
    >
    >> I've asked this question before and never received an answer that
    >> makes sense.

    >
    > OK, here's an answer that makes sense: making perfectly neutral
    > greyscale prints on an inkjet is really hard.
    >
    >> I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    >> replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior
    >> unacceptable.

    >
    > There are three ways to fix this:
    >
    > 1. Accurate colour profiles. With a good profile for your ink and
    > paper you can get a decent greyscale.
    >
    > 2. Print using a RIP. This is expensive, but gives much better
    > control of generation of greyscales.
    >
    > 3. Use small gamut inksets. See http://www.lyson.com/small-gamut.html
    >
    > Andrew.
    >


    Check out the QTR rip. A personally prefer to use monochrome inks (UT2
    from MIS) in my 1280 but a lot of people are getting good results with
    stock Epson color inks and the QTR rip in 2200 printers.
     
    Bubbabob, Mar 10, 2005
    #7
  8. JC  Dill

    Bubbabob Guest

    (Al Dykes) wrote:

    >
    > Ink systems for B&W printing on Epson printers. www.piezography.com


    These people have overpriced printer clogging inks and poor customer
    support. I blew hundreds on their stuff and ended up with several dead
    printers and very few prints, most of which have changed noticeably over
    the last 3 years. The MIS UT inks are cheaper and much, much better.
     
    Bubbabob, Mar 10, 2005
    #8
  9. JC  Dill

    Stealth Guest

    Where's the "QTR rip"????


    "Bubbabob" <rnorton@_remove_this_thuntek.net> wrote in message
    news:Xns96158120C63BDdilfjelfoiwepofujsdk@216.168.3.30...
    > lid wrote:
    >
    >> In rec.photo.digital JC Dill <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    >>> printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO
    >>> color data? Why does the printer think that it should be using
    >>> colored ink when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix
    >>> of black and white only"?

    >>
    >> Because to use only the black ink is much worse. The coloured inks
    >> give you much better tonality.
    >>
    >>> I've asked this question before and never received an answer that
    >>> makes sense.

    >>
    >> OK, here's an answer that makes sense: making perfectly neutral
    >> greyscale prints on an inkjet is really hard.
    >>
    >>> I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    >>> replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior
    >>> unacceptable.

    >>
    >> There are three ways to fix this:
    >>
    >> 1. Accurate colour profiles. With a good profile for your ink and
    >> paper you can get a decent greyscale.
    >>
    >> 2. Print using a RIP. This is expensive, but gives much better
    >> control of generation of greyscales.
    >>
    >> 3. Use small gamut inksets. See http://www.lyson.com/small-gamut.html
    >>
    >> Andrew.
    >>

    >
    > Check out the QTR rip. A personally prefer to use monochrome inks (UT2
    > from MIS) in my 1280 but a lot of people are getting good results with
    > stock Epson color inks and the QTR rip in 2200 printers.
     
    Stealth, Mar 10, 2005
    #9
  10. JC  Dill

    Hamish Reid Guest

    In article <>,
    "JC Dill" <> wrote:

    > [...]
    > Since the [B&W] image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
    > why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
    > images.


    Because the colour inks give the print engine greater range and
    flexibility in simulating greyscale. Combinations of the colour and
    black inks can obviously produce a decent range of greys, and -- at
    least for me -- do so, with enough care.

    > If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
    > doesn't.


    Well, *your* process doesn't seem to be producing great images, but that
    doesn't mean the 2200 can't produce some pretty damn good B&W images
    with a suitable colour-managed workflow. I do B&W with the 2200 (and now
    the 4000) and while the results aren't always as good as I used to get
    in a darkroom, they're pretty damn good (the 2200 seems to be better
    than the 4000 at the moment, but I think that's due to the 4000's
    profiles being a little out). B&W is definitely iffier than colour with
    inkjets, but it's getting pretty close.

    The real problem is that the 2200 needs good colour management and
    attention to things like profiles -- as you discovered, you can't just
    throw a greyscale image at it and have it work every time. I actually do
    all my B&W editing in a decent colour space (rather than greyscale), and
    the results are cast-free and not "muddy". But that's my own
    idiosyncracy.

    If you're using an accurate colour-managed workflow (using all the
    correct profiles, etc.) and you're still getting casts, there may in
    fact be something wrong with the printer. But the fact that it's using
    colour ink as well as B&W while printing greyscale isn't a problem, it's
    a feature. One that no doubt helps sell ink cartridges, but still an
    understandable feature.

    > The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious.


    [...]

    > My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    > printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
    > data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
    > when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
    > white only"?
    >
    > I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
    > sense.
    >
    > I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    > replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.


    I'd stop listening to the Epson people -- some of whom *do* know a lot
    about this, but you'll probably never get to talk to them :) -- and
    keep bashing away at this printer (erm, not literally). In my
    experience, the top end Epsons are worth it, especially the 2200, which
    I've used for literally thousands of B&W prints, for clients or for
    myself. It's a nice printer -- and and the prints lining my studio or on
    clients' walls, etc., suggest it's capable of at least decent work.

    Hamish
     
    Hamish Reid, Mar 10, 2005
    #10
  11. JC  Dill

    measekite Guest

    Re: Why does the Espon 2200 use colored inks to produce muddy "B/W"prints?

    I can't help you but I commend you for doing what you did for your father.

    JC Dill wrote:

    >For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
    >life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
    >albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
    >b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
    >cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
    > Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
    >why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
    >images.
    >
    >If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
    >doesn't.
    >
    >The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
    >the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
    >printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
    >"unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
    >Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
    >prints. I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
    >the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
    >thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
    >grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
    >the darker gray fields.
    >
    >My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    >printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
    >data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
    >when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
    >white only"?
    >
    >I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
    >sense.
    >
    >I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    >replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.
    >
    >
    >TIA
    >
    >jc
    >
    >
    >
     
    measekite, Mar 10, 2005
    #11
  12. JC  Dill

    Ron Hunter Guest

    Re: Why does the Espon 2200 use colored inks to produce muddy "B/W"prints?

    JC Dill wrote:
    > For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
    > life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
    > albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
    > b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
    > cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
    > Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
    > why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
    > images.
    >
    > If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
    > doesn't.
    >
    > The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
    > the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
    > printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
    > "unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
    > Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
    > prints. I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
    > the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
    > thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
    > grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
    > the darker gray fields.
    >
    > My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    > printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
    > data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
    > when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
    > white only"?
    >
    > I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
    > sense.
    >
    > I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    > replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.
    >
    >
    > TIA
    >
    > jc
    >


    This is a driver issue. If your driver doesn't have a B&W mode, that
    uses only the black ink, then you will get a mixture of the other
    colors, and if you look closely, will notice a distinct green tinge to
    the picture. Don't blame Epson, it is quite common among color printers.


    --
    Ron Hunter
     
    Ron Hunter, Mar 10, 2005
    #12
  13. JC  Dill

    Hecate Guest

    On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:18:28 -0500, rafeb <> wrote:

    >
    >
    >Owamanga wrote:
    >
    >> HEY, SOMEONE SHOULD MAKE THIS CARTRIDGE! - Just make 3 or 5 pigment
    >> inks that have the same tonal density as the Yellow, Magenta and Cyan,
    >> (more in 6 color systems) but keep them neutral gray and you'll get
    >> people buying a second printer just for B&W - no mods to the driver
    >> required.

    >
    >
    >It's been done. Search for limited-gamut inksets.
    >Lyson has them, and I think maybe MIS. Mostly for
    >Epsons, though.
    >

    Yes. And Permajet.

    --

    Hecate - The Real One

    veni, vidi, reliqui
     
    Hecate, Mar 10, 2005
    #13
  14. JC  Dill

    Hecate Guest

    On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:29:06 -0600, Ron Hunter <>
    wrote:


    >This is a driver issue.


    No it isn't. It's a profile and colour management issue.

    --

    Hecate - The Real One

    veni, vidi, reliqui
     
    Hecate, Mar 10, 2005
    #14
  15. JC  Dill

    Bubbabob Guest

    "Stealth" <> wrote:

    > Where's the "QTR rip"????
    >


    <http://harrington.com/index.shtml>

    I just KNEW when I posted that that everyone would expect me to do their
    Googling for them.
     
    Bubbabob, Mar 10, 2005
    #15
  16. Re: Why does the Espon 2200 use colored inks to produce muddy "B/W"prints?

    measekite wrote:
    > I can't help you but I commend you for doing what you did for your father.
    >
    > JC Dill wrote:
    >
    >> For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
    >> life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
    >> albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
    >> b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
    >> cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
    >> Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
    >> why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
    >> images.
    >>
    >> If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
    >> doesn't.

    [...]

    In the Canon's printer setup menu, one of the choices is "gray scale
    only." IIRC, Epson has a similar choice. Did you use it?

    I wouldn't scan 8bit gray scale, BTW, I would scan full colour, then
    work on the photo, then convert to gray scale. But I would keep the full
    colour scan. I've found that printing full colour in gray scale gives
    somewhat better results (on my Canon i960) than printing a gray scale
    picture in gray scale. IMO that's because a full colour pic has a wider
    black-white range. I don't know if you'd get the same results wth an Epson.

    Another factor in the appearance of b/w images is the paper used.
    Overall, I prefer matte photo paper to glossy, mostly because the ink
    dulls the shine of a glossy papaer, and os none has the same high gloss
    as a real photograph.

    HTH&GL
     
    Wolf Kirchmeir, Mar 11, 2005
    #16
  17. JC  Dill

    CWatters Guest

    "Ron Hunter" <> wrote in message
    news:104Yd.16876$...
    > This is a driver issue. If your driver doesn't have a B&W mode, that
    > uses only the black ink, then you will get a mixture of the other
    > colors, and if you look closely, will notice a distinct green tinge to
    > the picture. Don't blame Epson, it is quite common among color printers.


    He does have a B/W mode but that reduces resolution slightly for well
    understood reasons. The 2200 is capable of producing good B/W prints when
    setup correctly. Experts need the greyscale balancer that comes with the UK
    model but not the USA model for some reason. There is lots of info on the
    web about how to get it.
     
    CWatters, Mar 11, 2005
    #17
  18. JC  Dill

    Guest

    In rec.photo.digital CWatters <> wrote:

    > The 2200 is capable of producing good B/W prints when setup
    > correctly. Experts need the greyscale balancer


    Experts need colour management. The gray balancer is not really a
    substitute. It's better than nothing.

    > that comes with the UK model but not the USA model for some reason.


    Here, from someone who knows: "I was (along with some others) asked by
    Epson America to test it before release. I found it to be one of the
    worst pieces of software in recent memory! This was a key reason why
    the product was never released in the US."

    Andrew.
     
    , Mar 11, 2005
    #18
  19. JC  Dill

    JC Dill Guest

    Owamanga wrote:

    >If you force the printer to use just black ink it'll look even worse,
    >believe me. It does this for resolution/tonal depth reasons.


    You claim "it'll look even worse" but I saw with my OWN eyes that it
    looked much better. The muddy prints were outright embarassing, the
    pure black/white ones were usable.

    jc
     
    JC Dill, Mar 11, 2005
    #19
  20. JC  Dill

    Owamanga Guest

    On 11 Mar 2005 11:14:26 -0800, "JC Dill" <> wrote:

    >Owamanga wrote:
    >
    >>If you force the printer to use just black ink it'll look even worse,
    >>believe me. It does this for resolution/tonal depth reasons.

    >
    >You claim "it'll look even worse" but I saw with my OWN eyes that it
    >looked much better. The muddy prints were outright embarassing, the
    >pure black/white ones were usable.


    Okay, put it this way, a proper color calibrated BW print using color
    inks will look *much* better than the black-only ones. Although
    broadly 'acceptable' I've never been able to match the nutrality of a
    true Black & White digital wet print such as the ones from mpix.

    I don't actually have the 2200, I use a 1270 (it's a 13" wide
    predecessor, using different ink), but the concept is the same.

    --
    Owamanga!
    http://www.pbase.com/owamanga
     
    Owamanga, Mar 11, 2005
    #20
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