why does lcd tv look like crap?

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by outofdate, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. outofdate

    outofdate Guest

    What the hell is going on with lcd tv's, everyone that i have seen in stores
    displays an awful picture whether showing dvd's or digital tv, it looks like
    what you see when you massively overcompress a jpeg picture file. I have
    tried to find out about this on the net but so far have had no luck, it's
    seems unbelievable that it is not an easy topic to find, is everyone
    deluding themselves about lcd tv's, I can't see any other explanation
    because for there to be no explanation at all about something that is so
    obvious to anyone but a blind man makes no sense unless people just don't
    want to know about it, i.e delusion. I am curious to find out what causes
    the problem, do lcd tv's compress the received signal for some reason before
    displaying it. Anyhow as it stands lcd tv's give a worse picture than any
    other tv i have ever seen in my life, yet they are selling well, totally
    amazing. So does anybody here actually know what the story is, obviously i
    am not interested in people that just want to defend their lcd tv with any
    made up explanation.
    outofdate, Jan 3, 2006
    #1
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  2. outofdate

    Richard Guest

    outofdate wrote:
    > What the hell is going on with lcd tv's, everyone that i have seen in stores
    > displays an awful picture whether showing dvd's or digital tv, it looks like
    > what you see when you massively overcompress a jpeg picture file.


    It is showing sky as it is transmitted, DVDs are often quite crap, usually when
    they try to cram 1.5 hours plus onto a single layer disc.

    What you are seeing is not the fault of the TV, a good CRT will show the same
    issues on a shit source too.

    > I have
    > tried to find out about this on the net but so far have had no luck, it's
    > seems unbelievable that it is not an easy topic to find, is everyone
    > deluding themselves about lcd tv's, I can't see any other explanation
    > because for there to be no explanation at all about something that is so
    > obvious to anyone but a blind man makes no sense unless people just don't
    > want to know about it, i.e delusion. I am curious to find out what causes
    > the problem, do lcd tv's compress the received signal for some reason before
    > displaying it. Anyhow as it stands lcd tv's give a worse picture than any
    > other tv i have ever seen in my life, yet they are selling well, totally
    > amazing. So does anybody here actually know what the story is, obviously i
    > am not interested in people that just want to defend their lcd tv with any
    > made up explanation.
    >
    >
    >
    Richard, Jan 3, 2006
    #2
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  3. outofdate

    Geoff@work Guest

    "outofdate" <outofdate@computer> wrote in message
    news:43baff4c$...
    > What the hell is going on with lcd tv's, everyone that i have seen in
    > stores
    > displays an awful picture whether showing dvd's or digital tv, it looks
    > like
    > what you see when you massively overcompress a jpeg picture file. I have
    > tried to find out about this on the net but so far have had no luck, it's
    > seems unbelievable that it is not an easy topic to find, is everyone
    > deluding themselves about lcd tv's, I can't see any other explanation
    > because for there to be no explanation at all about something that is so
    > obvious to anyone but a blind man makes no sense unless people just don't
    > want to know about it, i.e delusion. I am curious to find out what causes
    > the problem, do lcd tv's compress the received signal for some reason
    > before
    > displaying it. Anyhow as it stands lcd tv's give a worse picture than any
    > other tv i have ever seen in my life, yet they are selling well, totally
    > amazing. So does anybody here actually know what the story is, obviously i
    > am not interested in people that just want to defend their lcd tv with any
    > made up explanation.


    More often than not they are displaying a 4x3 picture at the wrong aspect
    ratio - doh. Contrast is nowhere as good as CRT, and some/most are using
    digital trickery to bump up , say 625 lines, to 1024 etc.

    Most say that you should bea t least 5 x the screen size away for suitable
    viewing.

    geoff
    Geoff@work, Jan 3, 2006
    #3
  4. outofdate

    TonyC Guest

    outofdate wrote:
    > What the hell is going on with lcd tv's,


    AAAAAAAARRRGHH! APOSTROPHE!

    > deluding themselves about lcd tv's,


    AAAAAAAARRRGHH! APOSTROPHE!

    > the problem, do lcd tv's compress


    AAAAAAAARRRGHH! APOSTROPHE!

    > Anyhow as it stands lcd tv's


    AAAAAAAARRRGHH! APOSTROPHE!

    AAAAAAAARRRGHH! APOSTROPHE!

    AAAAAAAARRRGHH! APOSTROPHE!
    TonyC, Jan 3, 2006
    #4
  5. Richard wrote:
    > outofdate wrote:
    >> What the hell is going on with lcd tv's, everyone that i have seen in
    >> stores
    >> displays an awful picture whether showing dvd's or digital tv, it
    >> looks like
    >> what you see when you massively overcompress a jpeg picture file.

    >
    > It is showing sky as it is transmitted, DVDs are often quite crap,
    > usually when they try to cram 1.5 hours plus onto a single layer disc.
    >
    > What you are seeing is not the fault of the TV, a good CRT will show the
    > same issues on a shit source too.


    No, the OP is right. LCD TVs look awful. Some are better than others,
    depending on the noise cancellation circuit, but the quality is far from
    that of a good CRT.

    Part of the problem is the fact that LCDs have square pixels and normal
    televisions do not. Possibly due to this, and also because of the
    comparatively slow response time of LCD panels, they cancel a lot of the
    random noise, giving the highly-compressed JPEG look. Also, many panels
    lack colour depth so gradients look bad.

    The Other Guy
    The Other Guy, Jan 3, 2006
    #5
  6. outofdate

    Richard Guest

    The Other Guy wrote:
    > Richard wrote:
    >
    >> outofdate wrote:
    >>
    >>> What the hell is going on with lcd tv's, everyone that i have seen in
    >>> stores
    >>> displays an awful picture whether showing dvd's or digital tv, it
    >>> looks like
    >>> what you see when you massively overcompress a jpeg picture file.

    >>
    >>
    >> It is showing sky as it is transmitted, DVDs are often quite crap,
    >> usually when they try to cram 1.5 hours plus onto a single layer disc.
    >>
    >> What you are seeing is not the fault of the TV, a good CRT will show
    >> the same issues on a shit source too.

    >
    >
    > No, the OP is right. LCD TVs look awful. Some are better than others,
    > depending on the noise cancellation circuit, but the quality is far from
    > that of a good CRT.
    >
    > Part of the problem is the fact that LCDs have square pixels and normal
    > televisions do not. Possibly due to this, and also because of the
    > comparatively slow response time of LCD panels, they cancel a lot of the
    > random noise, giving the highly-compressed JPEG look. Also, many panels
    > lack colour depth so gradients look bad.


    Sky looked just as bad on my crt as it does on a mates LCD. His is a 23" I
    think, and it actually looks pretty damn good on a good dvd or similar.

    One thing I have seen often in the shops is the brightness set too high so all
    the mpeg noise that would normally be below the blacklevel are clearly visable,
    like when you watch some dvds on a computer.

    De-interlacing will make mpeg blocks worse, this isn't a fault of the LCD, it
    affects all progressive displays including decent crts. Actually given the
    choice again I would most likly get a 50Hz tv as the flicker is less offensive
    then the deinterlacing artifacts that you get on TV but hopefully this one will
    last untill we get HD in nz.
    Richard, Jan 4, 2006
    #6
  7. outofdate

    steve Guest

    The Other Guy wrote:

    > Part of the problem is the fact that LCDs have square pixels and normal
    > televisions do not. Possibly due to this, and also because of the
    > comparatively slow response time of LCD panels, they cancel a lot of the
    > random noise, giving the highly-compressed JPEG look. Also, many panels
    > lack colour depth so gradients look bad.


    True.

    LCD is good for clear display of relatively static visuals.....but falls
    over badly when the images become dynamic.

    Anyone who has ever tried to play Unreal Tournament on a laptop knows this
    very well. :)
    steve, Jan 4, 2006
    #7
  8. steve wrote:
    > LCD is good for clear display of relatively static visuals.....but falls
    > over badly when the images become dynamic.
    >
    > Anyone who has ever tried to play Unreal Tournament on a laptop knows this
    > very well. :)


    Newer LCDs (Not LCD TVs) have good response times which just about
    eliminate the problem that you talk about.

    Cheers,
    Nicholas Sherlock
    Nicholas Sherlock, Jan 4, 2006
    #8
  9. outofdate

    ~misfit~ Guest

    TonyC wrote:
    > outofdate wrote:
    >> What the hell is going on with lcd tv's,

    >
    > AAAAAAAARRRGHH! APOSTROPHE!
    >
    >> deluding themselves about lcd tv's,

    >
    > AAAAAAAARRRGHH! APOSTROPHE!
    >
    >> the problem, do lcd tv's compress

    >
    > AAAAAAAARRRGHH! APOSTROPHE!
    >
    >> Anyhow as it stands lcd tv's

    >
    > AAAAAAAARRRGHH! APOSTROPHE!
    >
    > AAAAAAAARRRGHH! APOSTROPHE!
    >
    > AAAAAAAARRRGHH! APOSTROPHE!


    See your doctor, tell them you suffer from a stress disorder and possible
    obsessive/compulsive disorder too. The doctor may be able to help. (Hint:
    Try to avoid SSRI's they aren't that great for GAD or OCD. Try to get
    Benzodiazapienes, they work)

    Either that or accept that this is usenet, not advanced English composition
    class and get on with your life and stop cross-posting the results of your
    psychological condition into computer and tech newsgroups.

    This public service announcement had been bought to you by the letters MD
    and the number 6 (With the last sibilant silent)
    --
    ~misfit~
    ~misfit~, Jan 4, 2006
    #9
  10. Hi there,

    outofdate wrote:
    > What the hell is going on with lcd tv's, everyone that i have seen in stores
    > displays an awful picture whether showing dvd's or digital tv, it looks like
    > what you see when you massively overcompress a jpeg picture file.


    Thats due to the low resolution of budget panels, and a poor quality
    (read cheap) video-scaler. Often the video signal being fed is poor
    quality composite video, that has gathered a heap of noise (you'll
    see a ghosting or shadow effect)...

    I've only seen a handful of plasma or LCD's where I like the picture
    quality. All of those without question were 1920x1080 widescreen. Of
    course they have a price to match their superior image quality. Harvey
    Norman here in Brisbane had a Sharp Aquos 45" LCD panel with 1920x1080
    resolution running from a Media Centre PC. Picture quality was nice
    but it was priced around $10k just for the screen...

    --
    Kind regards,

    Chris Wilkinson, Brisbane, Australia.
    Anyone wishing to email me directly can remove the obvious
    spamblocker, and replace it with t p g <dot> c o m <dot> a u
    Chris Wilkinson, Jan 4, 2006
    #10
  11. outofdate

    outofdate Guest

    "The Other Guy" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:cEuf.12225$...
    > Richard wrote:
    > > outofdate wrote:
    > >> What the hell is going on with lcd tv's, everyone that i have seen in
    > >> stores
    > >> displays an awful picture whether showing dvd's or digital tv, it
    > >> looks like
    > >> what you see when you massively overcompress a jpeg picture file.

    > >
    > > It is showing sky as it is transmitted, DVDs are often quite crap,
    > > usually when they try to cram 1.5 hours plus onto a single layer disc.
    > >
    > > What you are seeing is not the fault of the TV, a good CRT will show the
    > > same issues on a shit source too.

    >
    > No, the OP is right. LCD TVs look awful. Some are better than others,
    > depending on the noise cancellation circuit, but the quality is far from
    > that of a good CRT.
    >
    > Part of the problem is the fact that LCDs have square pixels and normal
    > televisions do not. Possibly due to this, and also because of the
    > comparatively slow response time of LCD panels, they cancel a lot of the
    > random noise, giving the highly-compressed JPEG look. Also, many panels
    > lack colour depth so gradients look bad.
    >
    > The Other Guy


    Thanks a lot for that explanation.
    Actually I do remember seeing one large lcd tv that was not bad, it was
    about a month before xmas and it was the latest model that dse had setup,
    and alongside it was another lcd screen that looked crap, but out of the
    heaps of lcd t.v's I have seen in many different stores this was the only
    one that looked ok, everyother one was incredibly bad so it makes me wonder
    why there was such a big improvement with this one particular tv, is every
    store setting their t.v's up in such a way as to make the problem as bad as
    it possibly can be, I wonder why they don't think what I think when they see
    it with their own 2 eyes and that is that it can't possibly meant to look
    that bad, surely. I was in the warehouse once when i heard some other people
    commenting about how bad the picture was. For those that buy them despite
    how bad they look in the stores i can only think that they are some sort of
    slave to consumerism and must have the latest thing even if it is crap and
    they are paying much more for something inferior to an existing product, i.e
    crt.
    outofdate, Jan 4, 2006
    #11
  12. outofdate

    John B Guest

    "outofdate" <outofdate@computer> wrote in message
    news:43baff4c$...
    > What the hell is going on with lcd tv's, everyone that i have
    > seen in stores
    > displays an awful picture whether showing dvd's or digital tv,
    > it looks like
    > what you see when you massively overcompress a jpeg picture
    > file. I have
    > tried to find out about this on the net but so far have had no
    > luck, it's
    > seems unbelievable that it is not an easy topic to find, is
    > everyone
    > deluding themselves about lcd tv's, I can't see any other
    > explanation
    > because for there to be no explanation at all about something
    > that is so
    > obvious to anyone but a blind man makes no sense unless people
    > just don't
    > want to know about it, i.e delusion. I am curious to find out
    > what causes
    > the problem, do lcd tv's compress the received signal for some
    > reason before
    > displaying it. Anyhow as it stands lcd tv's give a worse
    > picture than any
    > other tv i have ever seen in my life, yet they are selling
    > well, totally
    > amazing. So does anybody here actually know what the story is,
    > obviously i
    > am not interested in people that just want to defend their lcd
    > tv with any
    > made up explanation.


    Our 37" is great. Excellent picture quality. Higher model
    Philips. Much better than the old 29" Sanyo, and that was pretty
    good.
    John B, Jan 4, 2006
    #12
  13. outofdate

    outofdate Guest

    "John B" <> wrote in message
    news:4AFuf.12257$...
    >
    > "outofdate" <outofdate@computer> wrote in message
    > news:43baff4c$...
    > > What the hell is going on with lcd tv's, everyone that i have
    > > seen in stores
    > > displays an awful picture whether showing dvd's or digital tv,
    > > it looks like
    > > what you see when you massively overcompress a jpeg picture
    > > file. I have
    > > tried to find out about this on the net but so far have had no
    > > luck, it's
    > > seems unbelievable that it is not an easy topic to find, is
    > > everyone
    > > deluding themselves about lcd tv's, I can't see any other
    > > explanation
    > > because for there to be no explanation at all about something
    > > that is so
    > > obvious to anyone but a blind man makes no sense unless people
    > > just don't
    > > want to know about it, i.e delusion. I am curious to find out
    > > what causes
    > > the problem, do lcd tv's compress the received signal for some
    > > reason before
    > > displaying it. Anyhow as it stands lcd tv's give a worse
    > > picture than any
    > > other tv i have ever seen in my life, yet they are selling
    > > well, totally
    > > amazing. So does anybody here actually know what the story is,
    > > obviously i
    > > am not interested in people that just want to defend their lcd
    > > tv with any
    > > made up explanation.

    >
    > Our 37" is great. Excellent picture quality. Higher model
    > Philips. Much better than the old 29" Sanyo, and that was pretty
    > good.
    >


    Can I ask what you think of the quality of picture of the lcd t'v's you see
    in store, is it similar to your own tv?
    outofdate, Jan 4, 2006
    #13
  14. outofdate

    Jim F B Guest

    "outofdate" <outofdate@computer> wrote in message
    news:43baff4c$...
    > What the hell is going on with lcd tv's, everyone that i have seen in
    > stores
    > displays an awful picture


    The 17" Sony wide screen TV that I have seen is far superior to any CRT that
    I know of. When you pause a DVD or show digital pictures on it ex your
    camera, there is no flicker on the LCD TV, but noticeable flicker on every
    conventional CRT that I have tried. The colours are brighter and fresher
    also on this LCD TV. A lot depends on the brand, I thought Sony was a lot
    better than the others I saw. This TV is also a great computer monitor,
    better than any CRT I have ever owned. So I think your comments are a bit
    out of date, I would happily get rid of my CRT for a Sony LCD TV!
    Jim F B, Jan 4, 2006
    #14
  15. outofdate

    GraB Guest

    On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:48:12 +1300, "outofdate" <outofdate@computer>
    wrote:

    >What the hell is going on with lcd tv's, everyone that i have seen in stores
    >displays an awful picture whether showing dvd's or digital tv, it looks like
    >what you see when you massively overcompress a jpeg picture file. I have
    >tried to find out about this on the net but so far have had no luck, it's
    >seems unbelievable that it is not an easy topic to find, is everyone
    >deluding themselves about lcd tv's, I can't see any other explanation
    >because for there to be no explanation at all about something that is so
    >obvious to anyone but a blind man makes no sense unless people just don't
    >want to know about it, i.e delusion. I am curious to find out what causes
    >the problem, do lcd tv's compress the received signal for some reason before
    >displaying it. Anyhow as it stands lcd tv's give a worse picture than any
    >other tv i have ever seen in my life, yet they are selling well, totally
    >amazing. So does anybody here actually know what the story is, obviously i
    >am not interested in people that just want to defend their lcd tv with any
    >made up explanation.
    >

    I would have to agree with you. But I would extend it to LCD and
    plasma TV monitors. I have a TV card in my PC and can watch TV and
    DVDs on my 19" CRT monitor, driven by my Radeon video card. No plasma
    or LCD screen I have seen delivers a picture of equal or better
    quality. Period. I suspect in this case the video signal is getting
    better optimised by the video card with its built-in anti-blocking
    coupled with the pixels dithering inbetween on the monitor to smooth
    out jaggies.

    But I saw one very expensive 42" plasma screen fed by an expensive
    state-of-the-art DVD player with HD output, total value, here in NZ,
    $10,000. But you had to get so far back from it to achieve that
    smooth pixel-free look that it is the equivalent of putting the screen
    at the far end ot the lounge and watching it from the kitchen!

    Why is LCD TV better to some people? It is more expensive. It is new
    technology, so it 'must' be better.

    The one and only case I would make for LCD TVs is that they save
    space.
    GraB, Jan 4, 2006
    #15
  16. outofdate

    outofdate Guest

    "Jim F B" <> wrote in message news:43bb2781$...
    >
    > "outofdate" <outofdate@computer> wrote in message
    > news:43baff4c$...
    > > What the hell is going on with lcd tv's, everyone that i have seen in
    > > stores
    > > displays an awful picture

    >
    > The 17" Sony wide screen TV that I have seen is far superior to any CRT

    that
    > I know of. When you pause a DVD or show digital pictures on it ex your
    > camera, there is no flicker on the LCD TV, but noticeable flicker on every
    > conventional CRT that I have tried. The colours are brighter and fresher
    > also on this LCD TV. A lot depends on the brand, I thought Sony was a lot
    > better than the others I saw. This TV is also a great computer monitor,
    > better than any CRT I have ever owned. So I think your comments are a bit
    > out of date, I would happily get rid of my CRT for a Sony LCD TV!
    >


    My comments are completely up to date as it was only 2 days ago that I
    visited 3 different stores with lcd t.v's but I will say that I was looking
    at larger than 17 inch as 17 inch is far too small to be used as a main t.v.
    The smaller lcd t.v's I have seen did seem to be heaps better in regards to
    the problem I am referring to when I say that lcd looks crap but as I said I
    have not really looked at t.v's this size, maybe I should have said that in
    my original post but i thought most people would assume that I was referring
    to screens of a normal tv size. I cannot comment on the positive things of
    lcd that you point out as they have nothing to do with the problem I
    specified, good colour etc.. doesn't change the compression artefacts that
    stand out like a sore thumb but prehaps you would prefer to imagine that
    this problem does not exist.
    outofdate, Jan 4, 2006
    #16
  17. outofdate

    outofdate Guest

    "Richard" <> wrote in message
    news:43bb126c$...
    > The Other Guy wrote:
    > > Richard wrote:

    > One thing I have seen often in the shops is the brightness set too high so

    all
    > the mpeg noise that would normally be below the blacklevel are clearly

    visable,
    > like when you watch some dvds on a computer.
    >

    I had wondered if something like that might be happening although when I
    seen so many t.v's in so many stores I could not believe that they were all
    making this mistake but I guess they were, bloody morons. I presume what
    would be considered normal watching brightness levels will not cause the
    problem because obviously in the shops they feel they need to turn the
    brightness up to the level that causes mpeg noise to show. I have not seen
    any lcd t.v's displaying a normal tv signal, they always have them setup
    with sky digital or dvd's, sky digital looks the worse.
    outofdate, Jan 4, 2006
    #17
  18. outofdate

    Richard Guest

    outofdate wrote:

    > Thanks a lot for that explanation.
    > Actually I do remember seeing one large lcd tv that was not bad, it was
    > about a month before xmas and it was the latest model that dse had setup,
    > and alongside it was another lcd screen that looked crap, but out of the
    > heaps of lcd t.v's I have seen in many different stores this was the only
    > one that looked ok, everyother one was incredibly bad so it makes me wonder
    > why there was such a big improvement with this one particular tv, is every
    > store setting their t.v's up in such a way as to make the problem as bad as
    > it possibly can be, I wonder why they don't think what I think when they see
    > it with their own 2 eyes and that is that it can't possibly meant to look
    > that bad, surely. I was in the warehouse once when i heard some other people
    > commenting about how bad the picture was. For those that buy them despite
    > how bad they look in the stores i can only think that they are some sort of
    > slave to consumerism and must have the latest thing even if it is crap and
    > they are paying much more for something inferior to an existing product, i.e
    > crt.



    One would be on the composite and one on the component output of the player
    mostlilkly.

    There is a hell of a lot of processing to get a zipper-free picture from
    composite and it also has a much lower chroma bandwidth that shows on graphics
    more then it does on convential video.

    Some people have a house that needs a flat panel or it wont fit. People live in
    shoeboxes these days.
    Richard, Jan 4, 2006
    #18
  19. outofdate

    Tony Guest

    outofdate wrote:
    > What the hell is going on with lcd tv's, everyone that i have seen in stores
    > displays an awful picture whether showing dvd's or digital tv, it looks like
    > what you see when you massively overcompress a jpeg picture file. I have
    > tried to find out about this on the net but so far have had no luck, it's
    > seems unbelievable that it is not an easy topic to find, is everyone
    > deluding themselves about lcd tv's, I can't see any other explanation
    > because for there to be no explanation at all about something that is so
    > obvious to anyone but a blind man makes no sense unless people just don't
    > want to know about it, i.e delusion. I am curious to find out what causes
    > the problem, do lcd tv's compress the received signal for some reason before
    > displaying it. Anyhow as it stands lcd tv's give a worse picture than any
    > other tv i have ever seen in my life, yet they are selling well, totally
    > amazing. So does anybody here actually know what the story is, obviously i
    > am not interested in people that just want to defend their lcd tv with any
    > made up explanation.
    >
    >
    >

    I have to say I agree, I was out to get an LCD TV a few months ago and
    was horrified when I looked closer at the quality. The plazma TV's
    looked so much cleaner than the "washed out" and even blurry LCD's that
    I got a 42inch plazma instead and am extremely happy with it.
    Tony, Jan 4, 2006
    #19
  20. outofdate

    Jim F B Guest

    "outofdate" <outofdate@computer> wrote in message
    news:...

    > My comments are completely up to date as it was only 2 days ago that I
    > visited 3 different stores with lcd t.v's but I will say that I was
    > looking
    > at larger than 17 inch as 17 inch is far too small to be used as a main
    > t.v.
    > The smaller lcd t.v's I have seen did seem to be heaps better in regards
    > to
    > the problem I am referring to when I say that lcd looks crap but as I said
    > I
    > have not really looked at t.v's this size, maybe I should have said that
    > in
    > my original post but i thought most people would assume that I was
    > referring
    > to screens of a normal tv size. I cannot comment on the positive things of
    > lcd that you point out as they have nothing to do with the problem I
    > specified, good colour etc.. doesn't change the compression artefacts that
    > stand out like a sore thumb but prehaps you would prefer to imagine that
    > this problem does not exist.
    >


    I don't imagine anything, this problem does not exist with this TV. Have a
    look at this review for example:

    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1820955,00.asp

    Also, I have seen people playing fast moving computer games using this Sony
    LCD monitor, and the 16ms response time is completely adequate for the task,
    there are no noticeable slow response problems. Just looking in shops is one
    thing, but I suggest you also read some of the reviews on internet about the
    better LCD TVs and spend some time at home actually evaluating in detail a
    good LCD TV. The shops often don't tune them in the way you would like, I
    saw some awful pictures in a shop on a 23" Samsung LCD TV, but after playing
    around for a while at my request, the picture was improved dramatically.
    However, I wasn't quite so impressed with some of the lower end Philips LCD
    TVs.
    Jim F B, Jan 4, 2006
    #20
    1. Advertising

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