Why DID lucas make Greedo shoot first anyway?

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by Metlhd3138, Nov 12, 2003.

  1. Metlhd3138

    Metlhd3138 Guest

    I mean, it doesnt add anything to Greedo's character to begin with.
     
    Metlhd3138, Nov 12, 2003
    #1
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  2. Metlhd3138

    RR Guest

    This question, and many others, will be answered on the next episode
    of.....SOAP.

    --
    RR

    We have wandered into a state of prolonged neurosis because
    of the absence of a direct pipeline to the unconscious and we
    have then fallen victim to priestcraft of every conceivable sort.

    - Terence McKenna
     
    RR, Nov 12, 2003
    #2
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  3. Metlhd3138

    Dick Sidbury Guest

    Metlhd3138 wrote:
    > I mean, it doesnt add anything to Greedo's character to begin with.


    Only Lucas knows for sure. However, this is USENet so we can all be
    experts and tell you. My opinion is that Lucas made the entire SW saga
    for children. I'm so old that I saw the first movie when it came out
    and I was an adult, so I don't quite have the attachement to the
    original that many of you do. My nephew, who's about 8 or 9 thinks AOTC
    is the greatest movie ever made.

    Anyhow, my theory is that Lucas sort of made the entire saga up as he
    went along, perhaps having some general idea when he started but perhaps
    not completely fleshed out. At the end of the trilogy he realized that
    Han was a HERO. And when Hero's combat villains, particularly in works
    for children, they do not attack first. So while "fixing" up the
    "flaws" in Star Wars, he repaired Han's heroic image.

    IMHO
    YMMV

    dick
    -- and even though I don't have the love for the original version of the
    trilogy that many of you do, I do have it on Laserdisk, and I have a DVD
    burner. So I'm gonna have the original, even if it's only prologic.
     
    Dick Sidbury, Nov 12, 2003
    #3
  4. Metlhd3138

    RR Guest

    Dick Sidbury wrote:
    > Metlhd3138 wrote:
    >> I mean, it doesnt add anything to Greedo's character to begin with.

    >
    > Only Lucas knows for sure. However, this is USENet so we can all be
    > experts and tell you. My opinion is that Lucas made the entire SW
    > saga for children. I'm so old that I saw the first movie when it
    > came out and I was an adult, so I don't quite have the attachement to
    > the original that many of you do. My nephew, who's about 8 or 9
    > thinks AOTC is the greatest movie ever made.
    >
    > Anyhow, my theory is that Lucas sort of made the entire saga up as he
    > went along, perhaps having some general idea when he started but
    > perhaps not completely fleshed out. At the end of the trilogy he
    > realized that Han was a HERO. And when Hero's combat villains,
    > particularly in works for children, they do not attack first. So
    > while "fixing" up the "flaws" in Star Wars, he repaired Han's heroic
    > image.


    That was much better than my answer.

    --
    RR

    We have wandered into a state of prolonged neurosis because
    of the absence of a direct pipeline to the unconscious and we
    have then fallen victim to priestcraft of every conceivable sort.

    - Terence McKenna
     
    RR, Nov 12, 2003
    #4
  5. Metlhd3138

    Codswallop Guest

    On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 03:25:53 GMT, Dick Sidbury wrote in alt.video.dvd:

    > So while "fixing" up the "flaws" in Star Wars, he repaired Han's
    > heroic image.


    Problem is, most preferred his "anti-hero", or "reluctant hero" image.
    I think he also wanted to make Greedo seem more incompetant.

    --
    - Cods


    (un ROT-13 to email)
     
    Codswallop, Nov 12, 2003
    #5
  6. Metlhd3138

    Max Volume Guest

    In article <bos9as$1i221p$-berlin.de>, Dick Sidbury
    <> wrote:

    > Anyhow, my theory is that Lucas sort of made the entire saga up as he
    > went along, perhaps having some general idea when he started but perhaps
    > not completely fleshed out. At the end of the trilogy he realized that
    > Han was a HERO. And when Hero's combat villains, particularly in works
    > for children, they do not attack first. So while "fixing" up the
    > "flaws" in Star Wars, he repaired Han's heroic image.


    I don't think his vision was that loose, and I'm pretty sure the
    character of Han Solo would have shot first simply because he knew the
    situation he was in, he knew Greedo meant business, etc. However, try
    explaining that to parents groups who complain when a movie is released
    back into theaters that shows someone shooting without it satisfying
    the full legal definition of a "self defense" killing. It could have
    been as simple as one of George's kids asking why Han shot first, and
    of course we'll probably never know. If Greedo shooting first is the
    only problem you have with the Special Editions, you're a lot more
    tolerant than some I've encountered on Usenet.

    Also, like Bugs Bunny cartoons, STAR WARS may have seemed at first
    glance to be for kids, but in both cases the creators were making
    something they'd like to see. Just as we didn't try to strap ourselves
    to rockets and jump off of cliffs when we saw Road Runner cartoons, it
    wouldn't necessarily follow that having Han shoot first would be
    perceived as a *bad* thing back in '77. Twenty years later, I'm afraid
    neither Looney Tunes nor STAR WARS could withstand the scrutiny of
    litigious parents seeking a scapegoat when their kids **** up.
     
    Max Volume, Nov 12, 2003
    #6
  7. Metlhd3138

    buck Guest

    In article <bos9as$1i221p$-berlin.de>, says...
    > Only Lucas knows for sure. However, this is USENet so we can all be
    > experts and tell you. My opinion is that Lucas made the entire SW saga
    > for children. I'm so old that I saw the first movie when it came out
    > and I was an adult, so I don't quite have the attachement to the
    > original that many of you do. My nephew, who's about 8 or 9 thinks AOTC
    > is the greatest movie ever made.
    >
    > Anyhow, my theory is that Lucas sort of made the entire saga up as he
    > went along, perhaps having some general idea when he started but perhaps
    > not completely fleshed out. At the end of the trilogy he realized that
    > Han was a HERO. And when Hero's combat villains, particularly in works
    > for children, they do not attack first. So while "fixing" up the
    > "flaws" in Star Wars, he repaired Han's heroic image.
    >
    > IMHO
    > YMMV
    >
    > dick
    > -- and even though I don't have the love for the original version of the
    > trilogy that many of you do, I do have it on Laserdisk, and I have a DVD
    > burner. So I'm gonna have the original, even if it's only prologic.
    >


    I also saw the Oringinal as an adult, and loved it the way it was...

    My son, who saw it with me (he is now 31) is OUTRAGED about the change, while I give it a
    simple tsk, tsk.(I think GL is a "politicaly Correct ass-hole).

    I think you may have hit the nail on the head with your opinion.

    If you have the "Indiana Jones" trilogy set, I think you should watch the documetary disc
    carefully. In those documentaries you hear thar Lucas sold Spielberg on the Indy story by
    telling him it was a three movie deal and that the were three stories "ready to go". Then
    Spielberg says "When the time came to start "Temple Of Doom" there WASNT any story, George
    had "Made that up" and they needed to "Make it up as we went along".

    As it turns out, "Temple of Doom" is just made up from a lot of action sequences that were
    laid out for "Raiders" but couldn't fit into a 2 hour film. They took those sequences and
    wrote a story around them.


    I like the ORIGINAL Star Wars BEST! Same thing with "Empire" and "Jedi". Will I buy 'em on
    DvD? It depends on the price. Will my son buy them???? Probably not, unless George Lucas
    finds a way to restore them to thier "ORIGINAL CONTENT".

    My son has the original 3 on LD (I forget how many versions but he has ALL of them that were
    issued), and he has 3 LD players, so the originals are available to him at any time.


    --
    Larry Lynch
    Mystic, Ct.
     
    buck, Nov 12, 2003
    #7
  8. Metlhd3138

    Smaug69 Guest

    Max Volume <> wrote in message news:<121120030302492348%>...
    > In article <bos9as$1i221p$-berlin.de>, Dick Sidbury
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > > Anyhow, my theory is that Lucas sort of made the entire saga up as he
    > > went along, perhaps having some general idea when he started but perhaps
    > > not completely fleshed out. At the end of the trilogy he realized that
    > > Han was a HERO. And when Hero's combat villains, particularly in works
    > > for children, they do not attack first. So while "fixing" up the
    > > "flaws" in Star Wars, he repaired Han's heroic image.

    >
    > I don't think his vision was that loose, and I'm pretty sure the
    > character of Han Solo would have shot first simply because he knew the
    > situation he was in, he knew Greedo meant business, etc.


    Han fired first because that was who he was- a mercenary and a survivor.

    > However, try
    > explaining that to parents groups who complain when a movie is released
    > back into theaters that shows someone shooting without it satisfying
    > the full legal definition of a "self defense" killing. It could have
    > been as simple as one of George's kids asking why Han shot first, and
    > of course we'll probably never know.


    We certainly can't believe anything that Lucas says about it.

    Smaug69
     
    Smaug69, Nov 12, 2003
    #8
  9. In article <121120030302492348%>,
    Max Volume <> wrote:
    >In article <bos9as$1i221p$-berlin.de>, Dick Sidbury
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >> Anyhow, my theory is that Lucas sort of made the entire saga up as he
    >> went along, perhaps having some general idea when he started but perhaps
    >> not completely fleshed out. At the end of the trilogy he realized that
    >> Han was a HERO. And when Hero's combat villains, particularly in works
    >> for children, they do not attack first. So while "fixing" up the
    >> "flaws" in Star Wars, he repaired Han's heroic image.

    >
    >I don't think his vision was that loose, and I'm pretty sure the
    >character of Han Solo would have shot first simply because he knew the
    >situation he was in, he knew Greedo meant business, etc. However, try
    >explaining that to parents groups who complain when a movie is released
    >back into theaters that shows someone shooting without it satisfying
    >the full legal definition of a "self defense" killing.


    Han was already "not guilty" by virtue of conventional self-defense
    law, even by today's standards. If someone's pointing a loaded lethal
    weapon at you, you are entitled to use whatever force you need, including
    deadly force, to save yourself (unless the individual pointing the weapon
    at you is a government agent attempting to apprehend you).

    Anyone who believes otherwise is deranged, clinically or otherwise.

    --
    Aaron Brezenski
    Not speaking for my employer in any way.
     
    Aaron Brezenski, Nov 12, 2003
    #9
  10. Metlhd3138

    Justin Guest

    Aaron Brezenski wrote on [Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:44:59 +0000 (UTC)]:
    >
    > Han was already "not guilty" by virtue of conventional self-defense
    > law, even by today's standards. If someone's pointing a loaded lethal
    > weapon at you, you are entitled to use whatever force you need, including
    > deadly force, to save yourself (unless the individual pointing the weapon
    > at you is a government agent attempting to apprehend you).
    >
    > Anyone who believes otherwise is deranged, clinically or otherwise.


    yes, and what makes you think these parents groups aren't deranged in
    the overly simplified poorly though out definitions?
     
    Justin, Nov 12, 2003
    #10
  11. Metlhd3138

    Jordan Lund Guest

    (Metlhd3138) wrote in message news:<>...
    > I mean, it doesnt add anything to Greedo's character to begin with.


    Lucas said that he didn't want Solo, the hero, killing anyone in cold blood.

    - Jordan
     
    Jordan Lund, Nov 12, 2003
    #11
  12. Metlhd3138

    Jordan Lund Guest

    Max Volume <> wrote in message news:<121120030302492348%>...

    > I don't think his vision was that loose, and I'm pretty sure the
    > character of Han Solo would have shot first simply because he knew the
    > situation he was in, he knew Greedo meant business, etc. However, try
    > explaining that to parents groups who complain when a movie is released
    > back into theaters that shows someone shooting without it satisfying
    > the full legal definition of a "self defense" killing.


    Well, to be fair, Greedo is pointing a gun at him the whole time. I'm
    pretty sure that if someone is pointing a gun at you and you shoot
    them it is self defense. I mean, that's how all those police shootings
    seem to resolve themselves when they're "investigated"... "Suspect had
    a weapon... it was self defense..."

    - Jordan
     
    Jordan Lund, Nov 12, 2003
    #12
  13. Metlhd3138

    Max Volume Guest

    In article <>, Smaug69
    <> wrote:

    > We certainly can't believe anything that Lucas says about it.


    Yet somehow I get the impression you believe every malformed word that
    dribbles from the slack-jawed mouth of George W. Bush. You remind me
    of those idiots who think the moon landing was faked but professional
    wrestling is real.
     
    Max Volume, Nov 13, 2003
    #13
  14. Metlhd3138

    Bobcancel Guest

    << In article <>, Smaug69
    <> wrote:

    > We certainly can't believe anything that Lucas says about it.


    Yet somehow I get the impression you believe every malformed word that
    dribbles from the slack-jawed mouth of George W. Bush. You remind me
    of those idiots who think the moon landing was faked but professional
    wrestling is real.
    >>



    It's OK, people. . . . . it's only Max Volume.
    Maxie, Maxie, Maxie. . . . . . . if I beg you to get some therapy, will you do
    it? OK? Here goes. . . . . . . Max, you're such a warm, wonderful human being
    filled with the milk of human understanding, acceptance and kindness that it
    moves me whenever I see you name appear in this newsgroup. Once again, you
    feel an escapable (almost helpless) need to attack people at random whether you
    agree with them or not. I'm so very sorry that each and every one of us is not
    as smart as you, Max. I'm sorry that you find our company in this newsgroup to
    be contemptable, only worthy of your insults and condescending barbs. There's
    only one thing left to do in light of the misery you experience when ever you
    enter this group. Just leave because there's nothing here to discuss. Just
    leave because there's no one here to respect. Just leave, Max.
    But, you're not going to leave. Are you, Max?
    Well, here's a topic for you, Max. . . . . . . .wait for it. . . . . . . . . .
    .. "the sky is blue." I'm ready, Max, give me you're best shot.
     
    Bobcancel, Nov 13, 2003
    #14
  15. Metlhd3138

    Eric R. Guest

    (Jordan Lund) wrote in message

    > Lucas said that he didn't want Solo, the hero, killing anyone in cold blood.


    Does anyone remember when being a hero didn't also have to mean being
    a damn goody-two-shoes? Remember when a hero could smoke, drink, sleep
    around, violate the law, etc. and yet still do a noble task in the
    end?

    I really miss the hey-day of the anti-hero.

    -Eric
     
    Eric R., Nov 13, 2003
    #15
  16. Metlhd3138

    Justin Guest

    Eric R. wrote on [13 Nov 2003 06:40:47 -0800]:
    > (Jordan Lund) wrote in message
    >
    >> Lucas said that he didn't want Solo, the hero, killing anyone in cold blood.

    >
    > Does anyone remember when being a hero didn't also have to mean being
    > a damn goody-two-shoes? Remember when a hero could smoke, drink, sleep
    > around, violate the law, etc. and yet still do a noble task in the
    > end?
    >


    You mean like Bond?
     
    Justin, Nov 13, 2003
    #16
  17. On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:25:53 -0500, Dick Sidbury
    <> wrote:

    >Anyhow, my theory is that Lucas sort of made the entire saga up as he
    >went along, perhaps having some general idea when he started but perhaps
    >not completely fleshed out.


    If you've ever read the novelization of the first movie,
    written by Lucas, you can definitely get that impression. In the book,
    the emperor is described as weak, and actually controlled by the
    people around him. A far cry from ROTJ. And Vader has dreams of taking
    over, not only the galaxy, but the whole universe. Doesn't sound to me
    like someone who'l turn out to be Luke's father.



    Frederick J. Barnett http://www.eatel.net/~fred/
    "Someone's got to take the responsibility if the job's going to get done!! Do you think that's easy?!" Gregory Peck - The Guns Of Navarone
     
    Frederick J. Barnett, Nov 13, 2003
    #17
  18. Metlhd3138

    Invid Fan Guest

    In article <>, Frederick J.
    Barnett <> wrote:

    > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:25:53 -0500, Dick Sidbury
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >Anyhow, my theory is that Lucas sort of made the entire saga up as he
    > >went along, perhaps having some general idea when he started but perhaps
    > >not completely fleshed out.

    >
    > If you've ever read the novelization of the first movie,
    > written by Lucas, you can definitely get that impression. In the book,
    > the emperor is described as weak, and actually controlled by the
    > people around him. A far cry from ROTJ. And Vader has dreams of taking
    > over, not only the galaxy, but the whole universe. Doesn't sound to me
    > like someone who'l turn out to be Luke's father.
    >

    The first novel was ghost written by Alan Dean Foster, iirc. As for
    Vader being Luke's father, here's a quote from 'Star Wars: The
    Annotated Screenplays':

    "In the first draft, durring his training Luke calles Obi-wan Kenobi;
    Ben appears, and explains what has happened to him sice he was struck
    by Vader. He is now in a different part of the universe. Ben says that
    he's brought someone else with him, and Luke's Father appears
    (obviously, in this draft Vader is not Luke's father). He is described
    as a tall, fine-looking man and is referred to as Skywalker. Skywalker
    tells Luke that he has a sister; he won't reveal where she is for fear
    that Vader might be able to find her. This concept of Luke's sister was
    discussed during story conferences: the idea waas that Luke's father
    had twin children and took one of them to an uncle and the second to
    the other side of the universe so that if one was killed, another would
    survive. It was suggested that Luke's twin sister would be going
    through training at the same time that he was and become a Jedi Master
    as well. Eventually, in another episode the story could deal with both
    Luke and his sister as Jedi Knights." -Page 182

    --
    Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
    'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
    -'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
     
    Invid Fan, Nov 13, 2003
    #18
  19. Metlhd3138

    GMAN Guest

    In article <>, (Eric R.) wrote:
    > (Jordan Lund) wrote in message
    >
    >> Lucas said that he didn't want Solo, the hero, killing anyone in cold blood.

    >
    >Does anyone remember when being a hero didn't also have to mean being
    >a damn goody-two-shoes? Remember when a hero could smoke, drink, sleep
    >around, violate the law, etc. and yet still do a noble task in the
    >end?
    >
    >I really miss the hey-day of the anti-hero.
    >
    >-Eric


    Damn, im going to go watch Dirty Harry movies tonight. COOL!!!!!
     
    GMAN, Nov 13, 2003
    #19
  20. Metlhd3138

    Ronald Cole Guest

    Codswallop <> writes:
    > On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 03:25:53 GMT, Dick Sidbury wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    >> So while "fixing" up the "flaws" in Star Wars, he repaired Han's
    >> heroic image.

    >
    > Problem is, most preferred his "anti-hero", or "reluctant hero" image.
    > I think he also wanted to make Greedo seem more incompetant.


    Getting shot first seems pretty damned incompetant to me...

    --
    Forte International, P.O. Box 1412, Ridgecrest, CA 93556-1412
    Ronald Cole <> Phone: (760) 499-9142
    President, CEO Fax: (760) 499-9152
    My GPG fingerprint: C3AF 4BE9 BEA6 F1C2 B084 4A88 8851 E6C8 69E3 B00B
     
    Ronald Cole, Nov 14, 2003
    #20
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