Why can't I find a camera like this?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Prime, Mar 27, 2006.

  1. Prime

    Prime Guest

    All I want is:

    - A superzoom camera with the design and lens of the Panasonic Lumix FZ5 or
    FZ7
    - At least 7mp
    - Optical Image Stabilization
    - A low noise sensor like that in the Fuji F10

    It seems doable, just nobody has done it.

    - Pannys are great cameras but lots of image noise.
    - Few superzooms seem to be over 6mp.
    - Fuji has a superzoom but it doesn't have OIS.
    - Sony has a new OIS superzoom coming out >7mp, but it's kind of big. They
    are usually better in the low noise department, though.
    Prime, Mar 27, 2006
    #1
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  2. Prime

    jean Guest

    Not me, what I want is a point and shoot without a zoom, with a fast prime
    with an equivalent focal lenght of 50mm and with a noiseless sensor like the
    one in a 10/20/30D. It would have to be thin and light and use compact
    flash cards.

    Jean

    "Prime" <> a écrit dans le message de
    news:Xns9792C0C45E045PrimeFactor@216.196.97.142...
    > All I want is:
    >
    > - A superzoom camera with the design and lens of the Panasonic Lumix FZ5

    or
    > FZ7
    > - At least 7mp
    > - Optical Image Stabilization
    > - A low noise sensor like that in the Fuji F10
    >
    > It seems doable, just nobody has done it.
    >
    > - Pannys are great cameras but lots of image noise.
    > - Few superzooms seem to be over 6mp.
    > - Fuji has a superzoom but it doesn't have OIS.
    > - Sony has a new OIS superzoom coming out >7mp, but it's kind of big. They
    > are usually better in the low noise department, though.
    jean, Mar 27, 2006
    #2
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  3. Prime

    l e o Guest

    Prime wrote:
    > All I want is:
    >
    > - A superzoom camera with the design and lens of the Panasonic Lumix FZ5 or
    > FZ7
    > - At least 7mp
    > - Optical Image Stabilization
    > - A low noise sensor like that in the Fuji F10
    >
    > It seems doable, just nobody has done it.
    >
    > - Pannys are great cameras but lots of image noise.
    > - Few superzooms seem to be over 6mp.
    > - Fuji has a superzoom but it doesn't have OIS.
    > - Sony has a new OIS superzoom coming out >7mp, but it's kind of big. They
    > are usually better in the low noise department, though.



    I want one. But, make sure the noise level can match Canon 20D and the
    dynamic range can be as good as Fujifilm S3 and the OIS is at least 3
    stops and be 10MP like the Nikon D200. The price should be like
    Panasonic FZ5.
    l e o, Mar 27, 2006
    #3
  4. jean wrote:
    > Not me, what I want is a point and shoot without a zoom, with a fast prime
    > with an equivalent focal lenght of 50mm and with a noiseless sensor like the
    > one in a 10/20/30D. It would have to be thin and light and use compact
    > flash cards.


    Noise is related to pixel size because the sensors are photon
    noise limited for their rated quantum efficiencies, at least
    in decent cameras, even point and shoots (it can only get
    worse; photon noise limited is the best one can do). The
    smaller compact cameras with small pixels collect fewer photons.
    Noise is the square root of the number of collected photons.
    It is fundamental physics and the only real thing that could
    change is increasing quantum efficiency (about 2x to 3x is possible)
    but not likely soon in cheap cameras.

    See: Digital Cameras: Does Pixel Size Matter?
    Factors in Choosing a Digital Camera
    http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter

    Roger

    >
    > Jean
    >
    > "Prime" <> a écrit dans le message de
    > news:Xns9792C0C45E045PrimeFactor@216.196.97.142...
    >
    >>All I want is:
    >>
    >>- A superzoom camera with the design and lens of the Panasonic Lumix FZ5

    >
    > or
    >
    >>FZ7
    >>- At least 7mp
    >>- Optical Image Stabilization
    >>- A low noise sensor like that in the Fuji F10
    >>
    >>It seems doable, just nobody has done it.
    >>
    >>- Pannys are great cameras but lots of image noise.
    >>- Few superzooms seem to be over 6mp.
    >>- Fuji has a superzoom but it doesn't have OIS.
    >>- Sony has a new OIS superzoom coming out >7mp, but it's kind of big. They
    >>are usually better in the low noise department, though.
    Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark), Mar 27, 2006
    #4
  5. Prime

    Prime Guest

    l e o <> posted the exciting message
    news:TVIVf.108$:

    > Prime wrote:
    >> All I want is:
    >>
    >> - A superzoom camera with the design and lens of the Panasonic Lumix
    >> FZ5 or FZ7
    >> - At least 7mp
    >> - Optical Image Stabilization
    >> - A low noise sensor like that in the Fuji F10
    >>
    >> It seems doable, just nobody has done it.
    >>
    >> - Pannys are great cameras but lots of image noise.
    >> - Few superzooms seem to be over 6mp.
    >> - Fuji has a superzoom but it doesn't have OIS.
    >> - Sony has a new OIS superzoom coming out >7mp, but it's kind of big.
    >> They are usually better in the low noise department, though.

    >
    >
    > I want one. But, make sure the noise level can match Canon 20D and the
    > dynamic range can be as good as Fujifilm S3 and the OIS is at least 3
    > stops and be 10MP like the Nikon D200. The price should be like
    > Panasonic FZ5.
    >


    I know my original post looks like a wild wish list. But I don't think it
    is out of the current technical realm.

    I love the FZ5 size and format, but I don't like the noise I've seen on
    sample pictures.
    The Fuji F10 is widely admired for having very low noise due to Fuji's
    superior sensor technology. Not as good as a larger SLR sensor, but
    approaching that quality. But Fuji's superzoom doesn't have OIS!

    It just seems that each manufacturer has strengths, but nobody has all of
    them:

    Panasonic - great size and design; great lens; great OIS
    Fuji - great sensor technology, but no OIS
    Sony - great cameras with relatively low noise, but too big. Plus those
    annoying memory sticks.
    I'd rather not get a DSLR, I don't want the size, cost of lenses, or
    potential dust.
    Prime, Mar 27, 2006
    #5
  6. Prime

    l e o Guest

    Prime wrote:
    > l e o <> posted the exciting message
    > news:TVIVf.108$:
    >
    >> Prime wrote:
    >>> All I want is:
    >>>
    >>> - A superzoom camera with the design and lens of the Panasonic Lumix
    >>> FZ5 or FZ7
    >>> - At least 7mp
    >>> - Optical Image Stabilization
    >>> - A low noise sensor like that in the Fuji F10
    >>>
    >>> It seems doable, just nobody has done it.
    >>>
    >>> - Pannys are great cameras but lots of image noise.
    >>> - Few superzooms seem to be over 6mp.
    >>> - Fuji has a superzoom but it doesn't have OIS.
    >>> - Sony has a new OIS superzoom coming out >7mp, but it's kind of big.
    >>> They are usually better in the low noise department, though.

    >>
    >> I want one. But, make sure the noise level can match Canon 20D and the
    >> dynamic range can be as good as Fujifilm S3 and the OIS is at least 3
    >> stops and be 10MP like the Nikon D200. The price should be like
    >> Panasonic FZ5.
    >>

    >
    > I know my original post looks like a wild wish list. But I don't think it
    > is out of the current technical realm.
    >
    > I love the FZ5 size and format, but I don't like the noise I've seen on
    > sample pictures.
    > The Fuji F10 is widely admired for having very low noise due to Fuji's
    > superior sensor technology. Not as good as a larger SLR sensor, but
    > approaching that quality. But Fuji's superzoom doesn't have OIS!
    >
    > It just seems that each manufacturer has strengths, but nobody has all of
    > them:
    >
    > Panasonic - great size and design; great lens; great OIS
    > Fuji - great sensor technology, but no OIS
    > Sony - great cameras with relatively low noise, but too big. Plus those
    > annoying memory sticks.
    > I'd rather not get a DSLR, I don't want the size, cost of lenses, or
    > potential dust.



    Solution: buy all the companies you mentioned! We have to face the
    blu-ray and HD-DVD war, so you think the camera manufacturers are any
    different?
    l e o, Mar 27, 2006
    #6
  7. Prime

    cjcampbell Guest

    Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:
    > jean wrote:
    > > Not me, what I want is a point and shoot without a zoom, with a fast prime
    > > with an equivalent focal lenght of 50mm and with a noiseless sensor like the
    > > one in a 10/20/30D. It would have to be thin and light and use compact
    > > flash cards.

    >
    > Noise is related to pixel size because the sensors are photon
    > noise limited for their rated quantum efficiencies, at least
    > in decent cameras, even point and shoots (it can only get
    > worse; photon noise limited is the best one can do).


    Okay. You have convinced me. The ideal camera has only one pixel and
    that pixel must be six feet across....
    cjcampbell, Mar 27, 2006
    #7
  8. Prime wrote:
    > All I want is:
    >
    > - A superzoom camera with the design and lens of the Panasonic Lumix
    > FZ5 or FZ7
    > - At least 7mp
    > - Optical Image Stabilization
    > - A low noise sensor like that in the Fuji F10
    >
    > It seems doable, just nobody has done it.
    >
    > - Pannys are great cameras but lots of image noise.
    > - Few superzooms seem to be over 6mp.


    Little reason to be. Superzoom lenses by their nature are very
    difficult to make and maintain high quality imaging capability. So why have
    over 6mp? If the lens can't produce the quality why pay for a sensor that
    can record it? The "superzoom" lenses on DSLRs are fine. The do a good job
    but they don't match the imaging capability of the sensors, however you can
    buy other lenses that will.

    > - Fuji has a superzoom but it doesn't have OIS.
    > - Sony has a new OIS superzoom coming out >7mp, but it's kind of big.
    > They are usually better in the low noise department, though.


    I don't think you noted it, but it sounds like you also want a small
    camera, that eliminates the superzoom and larger sensor as they by nature
    will be larger.

    --
    Joseph Meehan

    Dia duit
    Joseph Meehan, Mar 27, 2006
    #8
  9. Prime

    Bruce Hoult Guest

    In article <>,
    "jean" <> wrote:

    > Not me, what I want is a point and shoot without a zoom, with a fast prime
    > with an equivalent focal lenght of 50mm and with a noiseless sensor like the
    > one in a 10/20/30D. It would have to be thin and light and use compact
    > flash cards.


    If it's a fixed lens then I want 28mm, not 50mm -- though a 28mm/56mm
    two position lens would be good too :)

    I don't care what type of card it uses, they're so cheap now.

    --
    Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
    Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------
    Bruce Hoult, Mar 27, 2006
    #9
  10. On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 22:09:28 -0500, "jean" <> wrote:

    >Not me, what I want is a point and shoot without a zoom, with a fast prime
    >with an equivalent focal lenght of 50mm and with a noiseless sensor like the
    >one in a 10/20/30D. It would have to be thin and light and use compact
    >flash cards.


    Here is what you want.

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/DMD.shtml


    ******************************************************

    "I have been a witness, and these pictures are
    my testimony. The events I have recorded should
    not be forgotten and must not be repeated."

    -James Nachtwey-
    http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/
    John A. Stovall, Mar 27, 2006
    #10
  11. Prime

    jean Guest

    "John A. Stovall" <> a écrit dans le message de
    news:...
    > On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 22:09:28 -0500, "jean" <> wrote:
    >
    > >Not me, what I want is a point and shoot without a zoom, with a fast

    prime
    > >with an equivalent focal lenght of 50mm and with a noiseless sensor like

    the
    > >one in a 10/20/30D. It would have to be thin and light and use compact
    > >flash cards.

    >
    > Here is what you want.
    >
    > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/DMD.shtml


    See, I'm not alone ;-) The Ricoh GR Digital
    (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Ricoh/ricoh_grdigital.asp) would be
    great IF it had a better sensor.

    Jean
    jean, Mar 28, 2006
    #11
  12. Prime

    Kent Clarke Guest

    In article <>,
    "cjcampbell" <> wrote:

    > Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:
    > > jean wrote:
    > > > Not me, what I want is a point and shoot without a zoom, with a fast
    > > > prime
    > > > with an equivalent focal lenght of 50mm and with a noiseless sensor like
    > > > the
    > > > one in a 10/20/30D. It would have to be thin and light and use compact
    > > > flash cards.

    > >
    > > Noise is related to pixel size because the sensors are photon
    > > noise limited for their rated quantum efficiencies, at least
    > > in decent cameras, even point and shoots (it can only get
    > > worse; photon noise limited is the best one can do).

    >
    > Okay. You have convinced me. The ideal camera has only one pixel and
    > that pixel must be six feet across....


    Nah, they'd still blow it up to 200% on the screen and see noise in the
    shadow...
    Kent Clarke, Mar 28, 2006
    #12
  13. Prime

    U-Know-Who Guest

    "Prime" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns9792C0C45E045PrimeFactor@216.196.97.142...
    > All I want is:
    >
    > - A superzoom camera with the design and lens of the Panasonic Lumix FZ5
    > or
    > FZ7
    > - At least 7mp
    > - Optical Image Stabilization
    > - A low noise sensor like that in the Fuji F10
    >
    > It seems doable, just nobody has done it.
    >
    > - Pannys are great cameras but lots of image noise.
    > - Few superzooms seem to be over 6mp.
    > - Fuji has a superzoom but it doesn't have OIS.
    > - Sony has a new OIS superzoom coming out >7mp, but it's kind of big. They
    > are usually better in the low noise department, though.


    Quit counting pixels and just buy one. I actually own a Sony DSC-H1 and it
    has taken pics that rival my Rebel XT with the 70-300 lens attached.
    U-Know-Who, Mar 28, 2006
    #13
  14. Prime

    U-Know-Who Guest

    "Joseph Meehan" <> wrote in message
    news:JDQVf.59720$...
    > Prime wrote:
    >> All I want is:
    >>
    >> - A superzoom camera with the design and lens of the Panasonic Lumix
    >> FZ5 or FZ7
    >> - At least 7mp
    >> - Optical Image Stabilization
    >> - A low noise sensor like that in the Fuji F10
    >>
    >> It seems doable, just nobody has done it.
    >>
    >> - Pannys are great cameras but lots of image noise.
    >> - Few superzooms seem to be over 6mp.

    >
    > Little reason to be. Superzoom lenses by their nature are very
    > difficult to make and maintain high quality imaging capability. So why
    > have over 6mp? If the lens can't produce the quality why pay for a sensor
    > that can record it? The "superzoom" lenses on DSLRs are fine. The do a
    > good job but they don't match the imaging capability of the sensors,
    > however you can buy other lenses that will.
    >
    >> - Fuji has a superzoom but it doesn't have OIS.
    >> - Sony has a new OIS superzoom coming out >7mp, but it's kind of big.
    >> They are usually better in the low noise department, though.

    >
    > I don't think you noted it, but it sounds like you also want a small
    > camera, that eliminates the superzoom and larger sensor as they by nature
    > will be larger.
    >
    > --
    > Joseph Meehan
    >
    > Dia duit
    >


    Really? http://www.pbase.com/randyc2800/image/54413727&exif=Y
    U-Know-Who, Mar 28, 2006
    #14
  15. Kent Clarke wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > "cjcampbell" <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:
    >>
    >>>jean wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>Not me, what I want is a point and shoot without a zoom, with a fast
    >>>>prime
    >>>>with an equivalent focal lenght of 50mm and with a noiseless sensor like
    >>>>the
    >>>>one in a 10/20/30D. It would have to be thin and light and use compact
    >>>>flash cards.
    >>>
    >>>Noise is related to pixel size because the sensors are photon
    >>>noise limited for their rated quantum efficiencies, at least
    >>>in decent cameras, even point and shoots (it can only get
    >>>worse; photon noise limited is the best one can do).

    >>
    >>Okay. You have convinced me. The ideal camera has only one pixel and
    >>that pixel must be six feet across....

    >
    >
    > Nah, they'd still blow it up to 200% on the screen and see noise in the
    > shadow...


    You can make fun of it, but your position is just as extreme
    as those wanting a gazillion pixels in a tiny camera the size
    of a button.

    When one considers lens aberrations, collecting photons, and
    the technology required to make reasonably cost camera
    systems, the sweet spot is in the 6 to 9 micron pixel range
    to produce optimum image quality. Smaller than about 6 microns,
    and you get less photons, and more difficult lenses for
    the full range from wide angle to long telephoto. Larger than
    9 microns and cameras become too big. Most DSLRs fit
    into this optimum range (I include the Nikon DSLRs with 5.5 micron
    pixels, as that is close the the 6 micron lower end, but pushing
    it a little).

    Roger
    Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark), Mar 28, 2006
    #15
  16. jean wrote:

    > See, I'm not alone ;-) The Ricoh GR Digital
    > (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Ricoh/ricoh_grdigital.asp) would be
    > great IF it had a better sensor.


    With 2.7 micron pixels, you can't collect as many photons as larger
    pixel cameras, and that is not a fault of the sensor.
    Just like with a pie, the more you slice the pie into smaller
    pieces, the less pie you get per slice. Same with a sensor.
    Same with a sensor: slice it into smaller pixels and you
    get less photons per pixel. Noise is the square root of the
    number of converted photons in each pixel.
    When people finally realize this, and the fact that the number
    of photons hitting the earth from the sun are finite, as are
    the number of photons from any artificial light source, they
    might stop wishing for the pie in the sky.

    Digital Cameras: Does Pixel Size Matter?
    Factors in Choosing a Digital Camera
    http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter

    Roger
    Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark), Mar 28, 2006
    #16
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