Why are external vendor exams so expensive?

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Waylon Kenning, Sep 19, 2004.

  1. I've recently become a first year BIT student at WelTec. It's a good
    degree, covers A+ in the first year. Now, the first year's fees are
    something like $3700 or so. That's pretty cheap for a degree, so I'm
    not complaining even though I have $11 to my name, and pay day is like
    5 days away. But that's student life. However, if I want to sit the
    official A+ exams at a Prometric testing centre, they're $317 an exam,
    and two a required for A+, so that's $634! I can't even afford 2
    minute noodles let alone $634! Now, these exams are (often) multi
    choice exams done over the internet. Why are they so expensive? No
    doubt there are feeds in creating the questions, testing their
    effectiveness etc..., but $634's a bit rich I think. So far here is
    my list of external vendor exams I'd like to sit, and their prices...

    A+: $317 x 2 = $634
    Network+: $484
    CCNA: $240
    Citrix CCA: $158 + $80(US) = $320

    Giving a grand total of $1678, or nearly half my degree costs for the
    first year! I guess the reason why I'm moaning is just because it's
    soo hard being a student these days in IT, and I wouldn't even want to
    think about what dental students are going through!

    Apparently the government wants to build a knowledge economy, however,
    they wont do it without IT graduates, which are at the lowest levels
    in 15 years (source NZ Herald). I'm contemplating going overseas too
    once my degree finishes simply because the government has done
    *nothing* to entice or even help me out while studying. No allowance
    because my parents ear to much (though they spend it all on their
    mortgage). No accommodation supplement for the same reason. All they
    gave me is a stupid student loan. No wonder students are bitter and
    are leaving for greener (money wise) pastures.
    --
    Regards,
    Waylon Kenning.

    1st Year B.I.T. WelTec
     
    Waylon Kenning, Sep 19, 2004
    #1
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  2. Waylon Kenning

    Collector-NZ Guest

    Waylon Kenning said the following on 19/09/2004 11:10:
    > I've recently become a first year BIT student at WelTec. It's a good
    > degree, covers A+ in the first year. Now, the first year's fees are
    > something like $3700 or so. That's pretty cheap for a degree, so I'm
    > not complaining even though I have $11 to my name, and pay day is like
    > 5 days away. But that's student life. However, if I want to sit the
    > official A+ exams at a Prometric testing centre, they're $317 an exam,
    > and two a required for A+, so that's $634! I can't even afford 2
    > minute noodles let alone $634! Now, these exams are (often) multi
    > choice exams done over the internet. Why are they so expensive? No
    > doubt there are feeds in creating the questions, testing their
    > effectiveness etc..., but $634's a bit rich I think. So far here is
    > my list of external vendor exams I'd like to sit, and their prices...
    >
    > A+: $317 x 2 = $634
    > Network+: $484
    > CCNA: $240
    > Citrix CCA: $158 + $80(US) = $320
    >
    > Giving a grand total of $1678, or nearly half my degree costs for the
    > first year! I guess the reason why I'm moaning is just because it's
    > soo hard being a student these days in IT, and I wouldn't even want to
    > think about what dental students are going through!
    >
    > Apparently the government wants to build a knowledge economy, however,
    > they wont do it without IT graduates, which are at the lowest levels
    > in 15 years (source NZ Herald). I'm contemplating going overseas too
    > once my degree finishes simply because the government has done
    > *nothing* to entice or even help me out while studying. No allowance
    > because my parents ear to much (though they spend it all on their
    > mortgage). No accommodation supplement for the same reason. All they
    > gave me is a stupid student loan. No wonder students are bitter and
    > are leaving for greener (money wise) pastures.


    The cost of Exams in the IT industry is nothing new, they have always
    been expensive. (As have courses)

    I know the exam centre kicks a fair part of the fee to MS for there
    exams and I would suspect the sme for other companies.
     
    Collector-NZ, Sep 19, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. It seems like Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:19:06 +1200 was when Collector-NZ
    <> said Blah blah blah...

    >The cost of Exams in the IT industry is nothing new, they have always
    >been expensive. (As have courses)


    Yeah, my question is why? Financial exclusivity?
    --
    Regards,
    Waylon Kenning.

    1st Year B.I.T. WelTec
     
    Waylon Kenning, Sep 19, 2004
    #3
  4. Waylon Kenning

    Barry Guest

    Waylon Kenning wrote:

    > I've recently become a first year BIT student at WelTec. It's a good
    > degree, covers A+ in the first year. Now, the first year's fees are
    > something like $3700 or so. That's pretty cheap for a degree, so I'm
    > not complaining even though I have $11 to my name, and pay day is like
    > 5 days away. But that's student life. However, if I want to sit the
    > official A+ exams at a Prometric testing centre, they're $317 an exam,
    > and two a required for A+, so that's $634! I can't even afford 2
    > minute noodles let alone $634! Now, these exams are (often) multi
    > choice exams done over the internet. Why are they so expensive? No
    > doubt there are feeds in creating the questions, testing their
    > effectiveness etc..., but $634's a bit rich I think. So far here is
    > my list of external vendor exams I'd like to sit, and their prices...
    >
    > A+: $317 x 2 = $634
    > Network+: $484
    > CCNA: $240
    > Citrix CCA: $158 + $80(US) = $320
    >
    > Giving a grand total of $1678, or nearly half my degree costs for the
    > first year! I guess the reason why I'm moaning is just because it's
    > soo hard being a student these days in IT, and I wouldn't even want to
    > think about what dental students are going through!
    >
    > Apparently the government wants to build a knowledge economy, however,
    > they wont do it without IT graduates, which are at the lowest levels
    > in 15 years (source NZ Herald). I'm contemplating going overseas too
    > once my degree finishes simply because the government has done
    > *nothing* to entice or even help me out while studying. No allowance
    > because my parents ear to much (though they spend it all on their
    > mortgage). No accommodation supplement for the same reason. All they
    > gave me is a stupid student loan. No wonder students are bitter and
    > are leaving for greener (money wise) pastures.


    When you have graduated $634 == one days work.
    Wouldn't that be a good investment?
     
    Barry, Sep 19, 2004
    #4
  5. In article <>, wrote:
    >Waylon Kenning wrote:

    *SNIP*
    >When you have graduated $634 == one days work.
    >Wouldn't that be a good investment?
    >

    Like hell it does. You don't get paid anything like that until you've
    got a lot of experience under your belt, unless you're very, very, very
    good - In which case you were probably working as a teenager, and never
    bothered with tertiary education anyway.

    --
    Matthew Poole Auckland, New Zealand
    "Veni, vidi, velcro...
    I came, I saw, I stuck around"

    My real e-mail is mattATp00leDOTnet
     
    Matthew Poole, Sep 19, 2004
    #5
  6. Waylon Kenning

    Collector-NZ Guest

    Waylon Kenning said the following on 19/09/2004 11:42:
    > It seems like Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:19:06 +1200 was when Collector-NZ
    > <> said Blah blah blah...
    >
    >
    >>The cost of Exams in the IT industry is nothing new, they have always
    >>been expensive. (As have courses)

    >
    >
    > Yeah, my question is why? Financial exclusivity?

    Kick Backs to the company whos name isused as in MS Novelle Cisco etc
     
    Collector-NZ, Sep 19, 2004
    #6
  7. Waylon Kenning

    JedMeister Guest

    and, you may find you spend all this cash, and the technologies change after
    you enter the workforce.


    "Waylon Kenning" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I've recently become a first year BIT student at WelTec. It's a good
    > degree, covers A+ in the first year. Now, the first year's fees are
    > something like $3700 or so. That's pretty cheap for a degree, so I'm
    > not complaining even though I have $11 to my name, and pay day is like
    > 5 days away. But that's student life. However, if I want to sit the
    > official A+ exams at a Prometric testing centre, they're $317 an exam,
    > and two a required for A+, so that's $634! I can't even afford 2
    > minute noodles let alone $634! Now, these exams are (often) multi
    > choice exams done over the internet. Why are they so expensive? No
    > doubt there are feeds in creating the questions, testing their
    > effectiveness etc..., but $634's a bit rich I think. So far here is
    > my list of external vendor exams I'd like to sit, and their prices...
    >
    > A+: $317 x 2 = $634
    > Network+: $484
    > CCNA: $240
    > Citrix CCA: $158 + $80(US) = $320
    >
    > Giving a grand total of $1678, or nearly half my degree costs for the
    > first year! I guess the reason why I'm moaning is just because it's
    > soo hard being a student these days in IT, and I wouldn't even want to
    > think about what dental students are going through!
    >
    > Apparently the government wants to build a knowledge economy, however,
    > they wont do it without IT graduates, which are at the lowest levels
    > in 15 years (source NZ Herald). I'm contemplating going overseas too
    > once my degree finishes simply because the government has done
    > *nothing* to entice or even help me out while studying. No allowance
    > because my parents ear to much (though they spend it all on their
    > mortgage). No accommodation supplement for the same reason. All they
    > gave me is a stupid student loan. No wonder students are bitter and
    > are leaving for greener (money wise) pastures.
    > --
    > Regards,
    > Waylon Kenning.
    >
    > 1st Year B.I.T. WelTec
     
    JedMeister, Sep 19, 2004
    #7
  8. Waylon Kenning

    Kerry Guest

    JedMeister wrote:

    > and, you may find you spend all this cash, and the technologies change
    > after you enter the workforce.
    >


    Most training is really about learning to learn.
    So that shouldn't be a problem. Just a normal part of the cycle
    that everyone has to deal with all of the time.
     
    Kerry, Sep 19, 2004
    #8
  9. Waylon Kenning

    Collector-NZ Guest

    Kerry said the following on 19/09/2004 12:24:
    > JedMeister wrote:
    >
    >
    >>and, you may find you spend all this cash, and the technologies change
    >>after you enter the workforce.
    >>

    >
    >
    > Most training is really about learning to learn.
    > So that shouldn't be a problem. Just a normal part of the cycle
    > that everyone has to deal with all of the time.
    >
    >

    If that is the case why did MS threaten to and IIRC actually cancel the
    MS Certifications of people who completed before Win 2K unless they did
    Win2k Courses
     
    Collector-NZ, Sep 19, 2004
    #9
  10. Waylon Kenning

    Kerry Guest

    Collector-NZ wrote:

    > Kerry said the following on 19/09/2004 12:24:
    >> JedMeister wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>and, you may find you spend all this cash, and the technologies change
    >>>after you enter the workforce.
    >>>

    >>
    >>
    >> Most training is really about learning to learn.
    >> So that shouldn't be a problem. Just a normal part of the cycle
    >> that everyone has to deal with all of the time.
    >>
    >>

    > If that is the case why did MS threaten to and IIRC actually cancel the
    > MS Certifications of people who completed before Win 2K unless they did
    > Win2k Courses


    Oh, I thought the discussion was about IT - not Microsoft.
    Does IT equate to a Microsoft certified course these days?
    If so, then it should be called an MW course.

    A proper IT course would go a bit further than teaching how
    to put the latest MS cd in your computer and following the
    instructions.
     
    Kerry, Sep 19, 2004
    #10
  11. In article <>,
    Waylon Kenning <> wrote:

    >I've recently become a first year BIT student at WelTec. It's a good
    >degree, covers A+ in the first year. Now, the first year's fees are
    >something like $3700 or so. That's pretty cheap for a degree, so I'm
    >not complaining even though I have $11 to my name, and pay day is like
    >5 days away. But that's student life. However, if I want to sit the
    >official A+ exams at a Prometric testing centre, they're $317 an exam,
    >and two a required for A+, so that's $634! I can't even afford 2
    >minute noodles let alone $634!


    Think about what someone with that kind of knowledge can earn per day
    applying it. Now think about the tutors for those courses--they have to
    be paid something to make it worth their while to impart that knowledge
    instead of earning money applying it.

    You do the math.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 19, 2004
    #11
  12. It seems like Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:54:10 +1200 was when Lawrence
    D'Oliveiro <_zealand> said Blah blah blah...

    >Think about what someone with that kind of knowledge can earn per day
    >applying it. Now think about the tutors for those courses--they have to
    >be paid something to make it worth their while to impart that knowledge
    >instead of earning money applying it.


    But take a company such as Cisco. They would need CCNAs (and higher of
    course) out in the workforce else no one would understand how Cisco
    Routers were configured, except those people who either trained by
    themselves or through some third party vendor that Cisco had no
    quality control over. Therefore, it would be in Cisco's best
    interests to start an educational program so there were people around
    to service their products. And as an incentive to those people who
    wish to learn about Cisco's IOS for example, wouldn't you think exam
    fees would be as low as possible?

    This doesn't of course apply to say Comptia exams, but certainly Red
    Hat/Cisco/Microsoft/SCO etc...

    Also, I was referring specifically to tutors teaching classes face to
    face, I have no problems with that. I was talking more about courses
    taught online, thorough the reading of materials and doing interactive
    activities. Once this content has been created, it can be used with
    millions of people, so in effect, the cost per student for an e-course
    should be very very low I would think.
    --
    Regards,
    Waylon Kenning.

    1st Year B.I.T. WelTec
     
    Waylon Kenning, Sep 19, 2004
    #12
  13. Waylon Kenning

    EMB Guest

    Waylon Kenning wrote:
    <snip>

    As usual it's the laws of supply and demand - if you're the only
    provider of the qualification, and there's a demand for it in the
    marketplace you'll price gouge for all that you're worth.

    SAP are even worse. Their courses run AU$600-$800+GST per day, run for
    between 2 and 5 days, then if you want the certification, you get to sit
    the exams for either AU$400 or $700+GST per exam, and they only run most
    of them in Aus now. A quick add up of the courses and exams I want to
    do runs to $12K+, will entail 5 trips to Aussie (at least another $4K)
    and will mean taking a month off work.

    Looks like I need to find an employer that will pick up the tab.

    --
    EMB
    change two to the number to reply
     
    EMB, Sep 19, 2004
    #13
  14. Waylon Kenning

    Kerry Guest

    Matthew Poole wrote:

    > In article <>, wrote:
    >>Waylon Kenning wrote:

    > *SNIP*
    >>When you have graduated $634 == one days work.
    >>Wouldn't that be a good investment?
    >>

    > Like hell it does. You don't get paid anything like that until you've
    > got a lot of experience under your belt, unless you're very, very, very
    > good - In which case you were probably working as a teenager, and never
    > bothered with tertiary education anyway.
    >


    That last sentence doesn't make a lot of sense.
     
    Kerry, Sep 19, 2004
    #14
  15. Waylon Kenning

    David Preece Guest

    Waylon Kenning wrote:
    > I've recently become a first year BIT student at WelTec.


    I've seen your posts on nz.comp over the years and think you're aiming
    too low. Although I do understand concerns over the costs of the more
    pretentious degrees and find this to be a failing of our education
    system rather than anything else. Still, rant over.

    > Apparently the government wants to build a knowledge economy


    More of one, yes. The clichéd figures are 10% of GDP in ten years, or
    100 companies of 100M turnover each. Whether this is an annualised
    turnover or merely their total turnover before falling over one
    afternoon is a different story.

    But, yes, a knowledge economy.

    > however,
    > they wont do it without IT graduates, which are at the lowest levels
    > in 15 years (source NZ Herald).


    I'm sick of hearing this, and it's bullshit. I'm sure they're at their
    lowest levels in 15 years (it's 2004, today's graduates will have
    entered their courses *just* as the dotcom bubble burst), but I don't
    see - and have never seen - just what we need IT graduates for.

    I, for instance, seem to hold down what mostly passes for a career in
    the IT industry without once having had any formal training. Oh, we had
    a bloke come in and spend three days teaching us COM once but that's not
    quite what I meant. I have no degree in IT. I have no certification of
    any form or description. It has never hurt me.

    In fact it doesn't appear to have hurt any of the people around me, and
    the only guys I know that did do 'computing' at University spent a
    couple of years coding in the bowels of a corporation (name witheld to
    protect the innocent) before leaving and forming their own business.
    That had nothing to do with programming at all.

    I worked in a software company in London once where we had a policy of
    specifically not employing IT graduates. Engineers, mathematicians - all
    much better at writing code than IT graduates.

    Incidentally most of this "more graduates" noise is being made by the
    Universities - the same people who grab $shitloads of our fine taxpayer
    dollars, the same again from their "revenue earning units" (students),
    and then use this money to employ people to go and scrounge for more. Go
    find some of the moaning about how they need a "next generation
    Internet" meaning "we want the taxpayer to shell out so we can run 10Gig
    pipes up and down the country".

    Arseholes. I don't get on well with NZ Universities.

    > I'm contemplating going overseas too
    > once my degree


    Do it. You'll have a great time.

    > No allowance
    > because my parents ear to much (though they spend it all on their
    > mortgage).


    Scarcely the government's problem.

    Dave
     
    David Preece, Sep 19, 2004
    #15
  16. Waylon Kenning

    Tim Guest

    Yes and if you do that, you can start your own business and be earning
    $200,000 pa.
    So is it worth Your while?
    - Tim

    "EMB" <> wrote in message
    news:ciis2b$apa$...
    > Waylon Kenning wrote:
    > <snip>
    >
    > As usual it's the laws of supply and demand - if you're the only provider
    > of the qualification, and there's a demand for it in the marketplace
    > you'll price gouge for all that you're worth.
    >
    > SAP are even worse. Their courses run AU$600-$800+GST per day, run for
    > between 2 and 5 days, then if you want the certification, you get to sit
    > the exams for either AU$400 or $700+GST per exam, and they only run most
    > of them in Aus now. A quick add up of the courses and exams I want to do
    > runs to $12K+, will entail 5 trips to Aussie (at least another $4K) and
    > will mean taking a month off work.
    >
    > Looks like I need to find an employer that will pick up the tab.
    >
    > --
    > EMB
    > change two to the number to reply
     
    Tim, Sep 19, 2004
    #16
  17. Waylon Kenning

    Kerry Guest

    David Preece wrote:

    > Waylon Kenning wrote:
    >> I've recently become a first year BIT student at WelTec.

    >
    > I've seen your posts on nz.comp over the years and think you're aiming
    > too low. Although I do understand concerns over the costs of the more
    > pretentious degrees and find this to be a failing of our education
    > system rather than anything else. Still, rant over.
    >
    >> Apparently the government wants to build a knowledge economy

    >
    > More of one, yes. The clichéd figures are 10% of GDP in ten years, or
    > 100 companies of 100M turnover each. Whether this is an annualised
    > turnover or merely their total turnover before falling over one
    > afternoon is a different story.
    >
    > But, yes, a knowledge economy.
    >
    >> however,
    >> they wont do it without IT graduates, which are at the lowest levels
    >> in 15 years (source NZ Herald).

    >
    > I'm sick of hearing this, and it's bullshit. I'm sure they're at their
    > lowest levels in 15 years (it's 2004, today's graduates will have
    > entered their courses *just* as the dotcom bubble burst), but I don't
    > see - and have never seen - just what we need IT graduates for.
    >
    > I, for instance, seem to hold down what mostly passes for a career in
    > the IT industry without once having had any formal training. Oh, we had
    > a bloke come in and spend three days teaching us COM once but that's not
    > quite what I meant. I have no degree in IT. I have no certification of
    > any form or description. It has never hurt me.


    Exactly!

    >
    > In fact it doesn't appear to have hurt any of the people around me, and
    > the only guys I know that did do 'computing' at University spent a
    > couple of years coding in the bowels of a corporation (name witheld to
    > protect the innocent) before leaving and forming their own business.
    > That had nothing to do with programming at all.
    >
    > I worked in a software company in London once where we had a policy of
    > specifically not employing IT graduates. Engineers, mathematicians - all
    > much better at writing code than IT graduates.


    That matches my own experience (as a math honors graduate).

    >
    > Incidentally most of this "more graduates" noise is being made by the
    > Universities - the same people who grab $shitloads of our fine taxpayer
    > dollars, the same again from their "revenue earning units" (students),
    > and then use this money to employ people to go and scrounge for more. Go
    > find some of the moaning about how they need a "next generation
    > Internet" meaning "we want the taxpayer to shell out so we can run 10Gig
    > pipes up and down the country".
    >
    > Arseholes. I don't get on well with NZ Universities.
    >
    >> I'm contemplating going overseas too
    >> once my degree

    >
    > Do it. You'll have a great time.
    >
    >> No allowance
    >> because my parents ear to much (though they spend it all on their
    >> mortgage).

    >
    > Scarcely the government's problem.


    That was what I call a very sound well-thought-out reply.
    On behalf of all sensible people, thank you very much.
     
    Kerry, Sep 19, 2004
    #17
  18. Waylon Kenning

    Collector-NZ Guest

    David Preece said the following on 19/09/2004 17:23:
    > Waylon Kenning wrote:
    >
    >> I've recently become a first year BIT student at WelTec.

    >
    >
    > I've seen your posts on nz.comp over the years and think you're aiming
    > too low. Although I do understand concerns over the costs of the more
    > pretentious degrees and find this to be a failing of our education
    > system rather than anything else. Still, rant over.
    >
    >> Apparently the government wants to build a knowledge economy

    >
    >
    > More of one, yes. The clichéd figures are 10% of GDP in ten years, or
    > 100 companies of 100M turnover each. Whether this is an annualised
    > turnover or merely their total turnover before falling over one
    > afternoon is a different story.
    >
    > But, yes, a knowledge economy.
    >
    >> however,
    >> they wont do it without IT graduates, which are at the lowest levels
    >> in 15 years (source NZ Herald).

    >
    >
    > I'm sick of hearing this, and it's bullshit. I'm sure they're at their
    > lowest levels in 15 years (it's 2004, today's graduates will have
    > entered their courses *just* as the dotcom bubble burst), but I don't
    > see - and have never seen - just what we need IT graduates for.
    >
    > I, for instance, seem to hold down what mostly passes for a career in
    > the IT industry without once having had any formal training. Oh, we had
    > a bloke come in and spend three days teaching us COM once but that's not
    > quite what I meant. I have no degree in IT. I have no certification of
    > any form or description. It has never hurt me.
    >
    > In fact it doesn't appear to have hurt any of the people around me, and
    > the only guys I know that did do 'computing' at University spent a
    > couple of years coding in the bowels of a corporation (name witheld to
    > protect the innocent) before leaving and forming their own business.
    > That had nothing to do with programming at all.
    >
    > I worked in a software company in London once where we had a policy of
    > specifically not employing IT graduates. Engineers, mathematicians - all
    > much better at writing code than IT graduates.
    >
    > Incidentally most of this "more graduates" noise is being made by the
    > Universities - the same people who grab $shitloads of our fine taxpayer
    > dollars, the same again from their "revenue earning units" (students),
    > and then use this money to employ people to go and scrounge for more. Go
    > find some of the moaning about how they need a "next generation
    > Internet" meaning "we want the taxpayer to shell out so we can run 10Gig
    > pipes up and down the country".
    >
    > Arseholes. I don't get on well with NZ Universities.
    >
    >> I'm contemplating going overseas too
    >> once my degree

    >
    >
    > Do it. You'll have a great time.
    >
    >> No allowance
    >> because my parents ear to much (though they spend it all on their
    >> mortgage).

    >
    >
    > Scarcely the government's problem.
    >
    > Dave

    I have not snipped your post because it is exactly what the IT industry
    in NZ is.

    I have a degree, but not in IT, while IT is my field now and has been
    for a while.

    The issue of qualification in IT actually goes to the fact that the IT
    industry is a young profession and life experiance and age do not count
    anymore.

    When you reach the age of about 40ish then you would find it very
    difficult to enter a new job.

    After a long discussion with someone today it became even more apparant
    to me that the IT industry in NZ has matured as the older identities in
    the industry are struggling.
     
    Collector-NZ, Sep 19, 2004
    #18
  19. Waylon Kenning

    Kerry Guest

    Collector-NZ wrote:

    > David Preece said the following on 19/09/2004 17:23:
    >> Waylon Kenning wrote:
    >>
    >>> I've recently become a first year BIT student at WelTec.

    >>
    >>
    >> I've seen your posts on nz.comp over the years and think you're aiming
    >> too low. Although I do understand concerns over the costs of the more
    >> pretentious degrees and find this to be a failing of our education
    >> system rather than anything else. Still, rant over.
    >>
    >>> Apparently the government wants to build a knowledge economy

    >>
    >>
    >> More of one, yes. The clichéd figures are 10% of GDP in ten years, or
    >> 100 companies of 100M turnover each. Whether this is an annualised
    >> turnover or merely their total turnover before falling over one
    >> afternoon is a different story.
    >>
    >> But, yes, a knowledge economy.
    >>
    >>> however,
    >>> they wont do it without IT graduates, which are at the lowest levels
    >>> in 15 years (source NZ Herald).

    >>
    >>
    >> I'm sick of hearing this, and it's bullshit. I'm sure they're at their
    >> lowest levels in 15 years (it's 2004, today's graduates will have
    >> entered their courses *just* as the dotcom bubble burst), but I don't
    >> see - and have never seen - just what we need IT graduates for.
    >>
    >> I, for instance, seem to hold down what mostly passes for a career in
    >> the IT industry without once having had any formal training. Oh, we had
    >> a bloke come in and spend three days teaching us COM once but that's not
    >> quite what I meant. I have no degree in IT. I have no certification of
    >> any form or description. It has never hurt me.
    >>
    >> In fact it doesn't appear to have hurt any of the people around me, and
    >> the only guys I know that did do 'computing' at University spent a
    >> couple of years coding in the bowels of a corporation (name witheld to
    >> protect the innocent) before leaving and forming their own business.
    >> That had nothing to do with programming at all.
    >>
    >> I worked in a software company in London once where we had a policy of
    >> specifically not employing IT graduates. Engineers, mathematicians - all
    >> much better at writing code than IT graduates.
    >>
    >> Incidentally most of this "more graduates" noise is being made by the
    >> Universities - the same people who grab $shitloads of our fine taxpayer
    >> dollars, the same again from their "revenue earning units" (students),
    >> and then use this money to employ people to go and scrounge for more. Go
    >> find some of the moaning about how they need a "next generation
    >> Internet" meaning "we want the taxpayer to shell out so we can run 10Gig
    >> pipes up and down the country".
    >>
    >> Arseholes. I don't get on well with NZ Universities.
    >>
    >>> I'm contemplating going overseas too
    >>> once my degree

    >>
    >>
    >> Do it. You'll have a great time.
    >>
    >>> No allowance
    >>> because my parents ear to much (though they spend it all on their
    >>> mortgage).

    >>
    >>
    >> Scarcely the government's problem.
    >>
    >> Dave

    > I have not snipped your post because it is exactly what the IT industry
    > in NZ is.
    >
    > I have a degree, but not in IT, while IT is my field now and has been
    > for a while.
    >
    > The issue of qualification in IT actually goes to the fact that the IT
    > industry is a young profession and life experiance and age do not count
    > anymore.


    Yes they do.
    Experience is the most valued commodity, in my experience.

    People say to me "The way you can make things happen and how
    bullet proof the code is you write give me an unreal expectation of how
    all development should be".

    >
    > When you reach the age of about 40ish then you would find it very
    > difficult to enter a new job.


    Bullshit. I have never had a problem.

    >
    > After a long discussion with someone today it became even more apparant
    > to me that the IT industry in NZ has matured as the older identities in
    > the industry are struggling.


    You will get young people who struggle too.
     
    Kerry, Sep 19, 2004
    #19
  20. It seems like Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:23:40 +1200 was when David Preece
    <> said Blah blah blah...

    >Waylon Kenning wrote:
    >> I've recently become a first year BIT student at WelTec.

    >
    >I've seen your posts on nz.comp over the years and think you're aiming
    >too low. Although I do understand concerns over the costs of the more
    >pretentious degrees and find this to be a failing of our education
    >system rather than anything else. Still, rant over.


    There is a method to my madness though, WelTec's degree is based
    around industry courses such as A+, Network+ MCSA, and Allied Telesyn
    (sp?) papers. So I figures, why not kill two birds with one stone,
    learn the same content and get a degree and external certs for it.
    And anyways, if the degree turns out being too easy, with B passes it
    allows entry into a Master of Computing at Unitec, which with an A
    pass in the Masters, allows entry into New Zealand's only (to my
    knowledge) Doctorate of Computing.

    <snip>

    >> however,
    >> they wont do it without IT graduates, which are at the lowest levels
    >> in 15 years (source NZ Herald).


    <snip>

    >I, for instance, seem to hold down what mostly passes for a career in
    >the IT industry without once having had any formal training. Oh, we had
    >a bloke come in and spend three days teaching us COM once but that's not
    >quite what I meant. I have no degree in IT. I have no certification of
    >any form or description. It has never hurt me.


    My dad has that arguement. But really, even though in the past people
    could leave school and get a job, odds are these days people who have
    degrees can't get those same jobs as easily. It seems the IT industry
    likes people with degrees and certs, but loves experience. So
    everyone wants experience, but where are you supposed to get this
    experience if no one wants a graduate without experience?

    >I worked in a software company in London once where we had a policy of
    >specifically not employing IT graduates. Engineers, mathematicians - all
    >much better at writing code than IT graduates.


    How I see it, is that you have to learn new information to be useful
    in a job, so why not at the same time get external certificates, and
    hell, while you're there, why not get a degree on top? Learning's the
    push, but a degree's a nice thing ya'know, it looks good on the wall I
    guess, and when I see my friends they can call me "Waylon Kenning
    Bach. InfoTech." or something, I dunno.

    <snip>

    >> No allowance
    >> because my parents ear to much (though they spend it all on their
    >> mortgage).

    >
    >Scarcely the government's problem.


    Well, lets see, the government looks at a parent's pay for a person
    under 25, but doesn't take into account their expenses (say power,
    food, phone and a morgage). So, in essence, my parents could be worse
    off than parents who earn less but have less costs, so their child
    gets an allowance, but not I? Now where's the consistancy in that?

    >Dave


    --
    Regards,
    Waylon Kenning.

    1st Year B.I.T. WelTec
     
    Waylon Kenning, Sep 19, 2004
    #20
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