Who said you couldn't keep detain in strong light?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Foto Ryadia's Studio, Jul 19, 2005.

  1. The contrast range which a sensor will record data in both highlights
    and deep shadow is quite narrow compared to what negative film will
    record and that in turn is very narrow compared to what the eye can see.

    A lot of otherwise nice photos are often lost to either blown highlights
    or blocked shadows. Nothing is much worse than the beach in strong,
    midday sun. The Panasonic FZ20 surprised this DSLR owner with it's
    ability to record detail in dark areas and highlights at the same time.
    http://www.ryadia.com/sailor_lost.htm
    --
    Douglas,
    Zero care factor for negative responses
    from anonymous posters.
    Foto Ryadia's Studio, Jul 19, 2005
    #1
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  2. Foto Ryadia's Studio

    Paul Heslop Guest

    Foto Ryadia's Studio wrote:
    >
    > The contrast range which a sensor will record data in both highlights
    > and deep shadow is quite narrow compared to what negative film will
    > record and that in turn is very narrow compared to what the eye can see.
    >
    > A lot of otherwise nice photos are often lost to either blown highlights
    > or blocked shadows. Nothing is much worse than the beach in strong,
    > midday sun. The Panasonic FZ20 surprised this DSLR owner with it's
    > ability to record detail in dark areas and highlights at the same time.
    > http://www.ryadia.com/sailor_lost.htm
    > --
    > Douglas,
    > Zero care factor for negative responses
    > from anonymous posters.


    impressive
    --
    Paul (And I'm, like, "yeah, whatever!")
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Stop and Look
    http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
    Paul Heslop, Jul 19, 2005
    #2
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  3. Foto Ryadia's Studio

    Jer Guest

    Foto Ryadia's Studio wrote:
    > The contrast range which a sensor will record data in both highlights
    > and deep shadow is quite narrow compared to what negative film will
    > record and that in turn is very narrow compared to what the eye can see.
    >
    > A lot of otherwise nice photos are often lost to either blown highlights
    > or blocked shadows. Nothing is much worse than the beach in strong,
    > midday sun. The Panasonic FZ20 surprised this DSLR owner with it's
    > ability to record detail in dark areas and highlights at the same time.
    > http://www.ryadia.com/sailor_lost.htm



    Nice image, but where's the beef^H^H^H^Hbeach? That image (cropped?)
    seems an even blend of dark/light areas. An event at the beach, but not
    one grain of bright sand do I see.

    --
    jer
    email reply - I am not a 'ten'
    Jer, Jul 19, 2005
    #3
  4. Foto Ryadia's Studio

    Dimitris M Guest

    There may be a new generation of compact digitals that have fast processors
    that can manage the levels and the curves and can improve the detail in
    shadow and highlights. This is equivalent as if we have record the photo in
    raw and post processed in PS in 12 bit, only it is automatic, better for
    amateur use. New Nikons S2 and others have a feature called D-Lighting that
    can equalize the curve like this, but I don't believe that process the photo
    before compression. I think that may be other new cameras as a very thin
    Sony I have recently seen that may use a more or less similar process.

    The benefit of using this process IN the camera and BEFORE jpg compression
    is that the photo is in 12 bit, so the dark and highlight details have 4
    more bits to develop detail (4096 levels instead of 256 in full spectrum),
    so if this equalization takes place before convert to 8 bit, the final
    result will be much-much better.
    --
    Dimitris M

    >
    > The contrast range which a sensor will record data in both highlights
    > and deep shadow is quite narrow compared to what negative film will
    > record and that in turn is very narrow compared to what the eye can see.
    >
    > A lot of otherwise nice photos are often lost to either blown highlights
    > or blocked shadows. Nothing is much worse than the beach in strong,
    > midday sun. The Panasonic FZ20 surprised this DSLR owner with it's
    > ability to record detail in dark areas and highlights at the same time.
    > http://www.ryadia.com/sailor_lost.htm
    >
    Dimitris M, Jul 19, 2005
    #4
  5. Jer wrote:
    > Foto Ryadia's Studio wrote:
    >
    >> The contrast range which a sensor will record data in both highlights
    >> and deep shadow is quite narrow compared to what negative film will
    >> record and that in turn is very narrow compared to what the eye can see.
    >>
    >> A lot of otherwise nice photos are often lost to either blown
    >> highlights or blocked shadows. Nothing is much worse than the beach in
    >> strong, midday sun. The Panasonic FZ20 surprised this DSLR owner with
    >> it's ability to record detail in dark areas and highlights at the same
    >> time.
    >> http://www.ryadia.com/sailor_lost.htm

    >
    >
    >
    > Nice image, but where's the beef^H^H^H^Hbeach? That image (cropped?)
    > seems an even blend of dark/light areas. An event at the beach, but not
    > one grain of bright sand do I see.
    >


    Not cropped... Full frame of the shot.

    --
    Douglas,
    Zero care factor for negative responses
    from anonymous posters.
    Foto Ryadia's Studio, Jul 19, 2005
    #5
  6. Dimitris M wrote:
    > There may be a new generation of compact digitals that have fast processors
    > that can manage the levels and the curves and can improve the detail in
    > shadow and highlights. This is equivalent as if we have record the photo in
    > raw and post processed in PS in 12 bit, only it is automatic, better for
    > amateur use. New Nikons S2 and others have a feature called D-Lighting that
    > can equalize the curve like this, but I don't believe that process the photo
    > before compression. I think that may be other new cameras as a very thin
    > Sony I have recently seen that may use a more or less similar process.
    >
    > The benefit of using this process IN the camera and BEFORE jpg compression
    > is that the photo is in 12 bit, so the dark and highlight details have 4
    > more bits to develop detail (4096 levels instead of 256 in full spectrum),
    > so if this equalization takes place before convert to 8 bit, the final
    > result will be much-much better.


    That shot was captured in TIFF mode. Using JPG mode on the same scene
    produces blown highlights.

    --
    Douglas,
    Zero care factor for negative responses
    from anonymous posters.
    Foto Ryadia's Studio, Jul 19, 2005
    #6
  7. Foto Ryadia's Studio

    Paul Heslop Guest

    Foto Ryadia's Studio wrote:
    >


    > That shot was captured in TIFF mode. Using JPG mode on the same scene
    > produces blown highlights.
    >
    > --

    now that's interesting. why would that be? could this be true of other
    cams?

    --
    Paul (And I'm, like, "yeah, whatever!")
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Stop and Look
    http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
    Paul Heslop, Jul 19, 2005
    #7
  8. Foto Ryadia's Studio

    per Guest

    "Foto Ryadia's Studio" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:42dcded4$...
    > The contrast range which a sensor will record data in both highlights and
    > deep shadow is quite narrow compared to what negative film will record and
    > that in turn is very narrow compared to what the eye can see.
    >
    > A lot of otherwise nice photos are often lost to either blown highlights
    > or blocked shadows. Nothing is much worse than the beach in strong, midday
    > sun. The Panasonic FZ20 surprised this DSLR owner with it's ability to
    > record detail in dark areas and highlights at the same time.
    > http://www.ryadia.com/sailor_lost.htm
    > --
    > Douglas,


    And all the people in the scene has a very purple-reddish skin tone.
    Can anyone show a set of portraits with decent skin tones from a Panny,
    please?
    /per
    per, Jul 19, 2005
    #8
  9. Foto Ryadia's Studio

    Guest

    In message <42dcded4$>,
    Foto Ryadia's Studio <> wrote:

    >The contrast range which a sensor will record data in both highlights
    >and deep shadow is quite narrow compared to what negative film will
    >record and that in turn is very narrow compared to what the eye can see.


    Not really; 12-bit digitization is the real limit, at least with current
    DSLRs, at their lowest ISOs. If this were not true, there wouldn't be
    much point in shooting at the higher ISOs.

    Whatever image quality you get out of your 20D at ISO 1600, that's what
    the 12 least significant bits would be, from the same sensor, if the
    camera cleanly digitized at 16 bits at ISO 100.

    >A lot of otherwise nice photos are often lost to either blown highlights
    >or blocked shadows. Nothing is much worse than the beach in strong,
    >midday sun. The Panasonic FZ20 surprised this DSLR owner with it's
    >ability to record detail in dark areas and highlights at the same time.
    >http://www.ryadia.com/sailor_lost.htm


    What the hell are you talking about? Even in this downsized image,
    there is absolutely *Z E R O* detail in those shadows; just 8*8 blocks
    of dark, solid color. The highlights are clipped, and blocky as well.

    Again, you have proven absolutely nothing.
    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
    , Jul 19, 2005
    #9
  10. Foto Ryadia's Studio

    Guest

    In message <>,
    Paul Heslop <> wrote:

    >impressive


    How so?
    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
    , Jul 19, 2005
    #10
  11. Foto Ryadia's Studio

    Paul Heslop Guest

    wrote:
    >
    > In message <>,
    > Paul Heslop <> wrote:
    >
    > >impressive

    >
    > How so?
    > --
    >
    > <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    > John P Sheehy <>
    > ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><


    okay, I should have said

    "In comparison to my Oly c-725"

    I can see details in all the right places.
    --
    Paul (And I'm, like, "yeah, whatever!")
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Stop and Look
    http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
    Paul Heslop, Jul 19, 2005
    #11
  12. "Foto Ryadia's Studio" <> wrote:
    >
    > That shot was captured in TIFF mode. Using JPG mode on the same scene
    > produces blown highlights.


    If you look at the histogram, you'll see that the highlights are blown on
    that image.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
    David J. Littleboy, Jul 19, 2005
    #12
  13. Foto Ryadia's Studio

    Guest

    In message <dbjvgn$p1r$>,
    "David J. Littleboy" <> wrote:

    >"Foto Ryadia's Studio" <> wrote:


    >> That shot was captured in TIFF mode. Using JPG mode on the same scene
    >> produces blown highlights.


    >If you look at the histogram, you'll see that the highlights are blown on
    >that image.


    The shadows are completely featureless, too. If you paste the image
    into an editor, and change the gamma, you can see solid 8*8 tiles of
    dark color (total JPEG compression) in the shadows, and if you move the
    gamma slider the other way, you see the same featureless squares at the
    edges of the blown-out area.

    Doug is out on a limb once again.
    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
    , Jul 20, 2005
    #13
  14. wrote:

    > What the hell are you talking about? Even in this downsized image,
    > there is absolutely *Z E R O* detail in those shadows; just 8*8 blocks
    > of dark, solid color. The highlights are clipped, and blocky as well.
    >
    > Again, you have proven absolutely nothing.


    And you are stupid enough to argue about nothing?

    --
    Douglas,
    Zero care factor for negative responses
    from anonymous posters.
    Foto Ryadia's Studio, Jul 20, 2005
    #14
  15. Foto Ryadia's Studio

    Boat Guest

    "per" <> wrote in message
    news:42dd6343$...
    > And all the people in the scene has a very purple-reddish skin tone.
    > Can anyone show a set of portraits with decent skin tones from a Panny,
    > please?


    The skin tones are pretty ghastly. Those look to be Canadians. Not at all
    surprising how the pre-melanoma renders. Just the same, I wouldn't be
    altogether displeased if a P/S rendered a scene this way straight out of the
    camera. The 9 or 10 stops of brightness range we see is about all that tiny
    sensors can image.

    Can't tell from the context, but this could be an inland body of water, or
    at least the horizon wasn't visible in the direction of the sun. Cap'n Bligh
    is shooting his noonshot downward at an artificial horizon. Also, the noon
    sun seems pretty low; not just Canadian, but pretty high latitudes at that.
    Boat, Jul 20, 2005
    #15
  16. Boat wrote:
    > "per" <> wrote in message
    > news:42dd6343$...
    >
    >> And all the people in the scene has a very purple-reddish skin tone.
    >> Can anyone show a set of portraits with decent skin tones from a
    >> Panny, please?

    >
    >
    > The skin tones are pretty ghastly. Those look to be Canadians. Not at
    > all surprising how the pre-melanoma renders. Just the same, I wouldn't
    > be altogether displeased if a P/S rendered a scene this way straight out
    > of the camera. The 9 or 10 stops of brightness range we see is about all
    > that tiny sensors can image.
    >
    > Can't tell from the context, but this could be an inland body of water,
    > or at least the horizon wasn't visible in the direction of the sun.
    > Cap'n Bligh is shooting his noonshot downward at an artificial horizon.
    > Also, the noon sun seems pretty low; not just Canadian, but pretty high
    > latitudes at that.
    >

    Very well guessed Boat.
    Artificial horizon of mercury because the suns rays distort the true
    horizon. Not Canada but Australia. In the middle of winter. Matthew
    Flinders landing re-enactment on the "6th Island" on Moreton bay,
    Southern Queensland. The ghastly skin tones are probably from all the rum!

    --
    Douglas,
    Zero care factor for negative responses
    from anonymous posters.
    Foto Ryadia's Studio, Jul 20, 2005
    #16
  17. Foto Ryadia's Studio

    Don Stauffer Guest

    To me, there is another issue with strong light, especially very high
    contrast scenes, that is completely optical, not electronic.

    I am disappointed with the flare performance of most cameras and lenses
    (especially zoom lenses) these days.

    Long time ago, most folks disapproved of flare. Then, it became a fad,
    with filters available to add flare and ghosts :-( I suspect camera
    mfgs at that point said, "hey, folks no longer object to flare, so why
    should we spend a lot of resources minimizing it?"

    Ray tracing flare is extremely computationally intensive, and I don't
    believe there is any practical way to do it in camera processing. Now
    that there ARE tools around to design around it in the camera or lens,
    it seems like mfgs don't make much use of these tools.
    Don Stauffer, Jul 20, 2005
    #17
  18. Foto Ryadia's Studio

    Guest

    In message <42ddc47e$>,
    Foto Ryadia's Studio <> wrote:

    > wrote:


    >> What the hell are you talking about? Even in this downsized image,
    >> there is absolutely *Z E R O* detail in those shadows; just 8*8 blocks
    >> of dark, solid color. The highlights are clipped, and blocky as well.

    >
    >> Again, you have proven absolutely nothing.


    >And you are stupid enough to argue about nothing?


    Everything I said above is true; there is no detail in the shadows;
    there is no detail in the highlights, and your images show nothing about
    the camera, only something about the post-processing.

    The FZ20 is certainly one of the best small-sensor digitals. Please
    don't muddy its reputation by making claims and doctoring images to
    prove them.
    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
    , Jul 20, 2005
    #18
  19. Foto Ryadia's Studio

    Stacey Guest


    > Foto Ryadia's Studio wrote:
    >>
    >> The contrast range which a sensor will record data in both highlights
    >> and deep shadow is quite narrow compared to what negative film will
    >> record and that in turn is very narrow compared to what the eye can see.
    >>



    This is for the OP, can't respond because he pulled his original post.


    Why does this guy post controversial things, then pull the post and remove
    the files from his website when people don't like what he said? Like duh
    what do you think people are going to say to these posts?
    --

    Stacey
    Stacey, Jul 21, 2005
    #19
  20. Foto Ryadia's Studio

    ASAAR Guest

    On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:39:52 -0400, Stacey wrote:

    > This is for the OP, can't respond because he pulled his original post.


    Are you sure? I deleted it, emptied the trash and then reloaded
    it again from my newsserver. If he did try to cancel his OP, my
    server didn't honor the request. Most newsservers don't.


    > Why does this guy post controversial things, then pull the post and
    > remove the files from his website when people don't like what he said?


    If he did engage in "doctoring images" as JPS claimed, that could
    explain the hasty retreat of the files from his website. :)
    ASAAR, Jul 21, 2005
    #20
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