White-balance preset question

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Cooter, Jun 21, 2004.

  1. Cooter

    Cooter Guest

    My Nikon CP5700 manual says to use a white card for white-balance preset. My
    wife's CP 3200 manual says to use a gray card. Is this: (1) A difference in
    camera operation, (2) Updated thinking since the 3200 is newer, or (3) does
    it make any difference? I can see where one camera (5700) might be setting
    balance via the highlights while the other might be setting the mid-point
    balance. Just curious.
    Cooter, Jun 21, 2004
    #1
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  2. A white card and a grey card have the same color balance....strange but
    true!


    "Cooter" <> wrote in message
    news:hoDBc.64309$...
    > My Nikon CP5700 manual says to use a white card for white-balance preset.

    My
    > wife's CP 3200 manual says to use a gray card. Is this: (1) A difference

    in
    > camera operation, (2) Updated thinking since the 3200 is newer, or (3)

    does
    > it make any difference? I can see where one camera (5700) might be setting
    > balance via the highlights while the other might be setting the mid-point
    > balance. Just curious.
    >
    >
    Gene Palmiter, Jun 21, 2004
    #2
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  3. "Gene Palmiter" <> wrote in message
    news:SADBc.13279$...
    > A white card and a grey card have the same color balance....strange but
    > true!


    Indeed they can have. When shot upclose, the exposure will be adjusted so
    that both will be rendered approx. mid-gray. The only thing to avoid from
    there, is fluorescent white.

    A gray card produced for the purpose of measuring refectance will probably
    be okay on both the white (no smudges) and the gray side. A piece of
    ordinary paper may have optical brighteners added, avoid those (if needed
    check for fluorescence with a "black light" that emits large amounts of near
    UV).

    Bart
    Bart van der Wolf, Jun 21, 2004
    #3
  4. Ignore that man! White, Grey, and black are NOT colors! The white balance
    for all are the same! (ok...don't know what black will do) White balancing
    measures the color temperature of the light.....look....its all too much for
    a quick post. Go look it up! And Bart...your bit...that is for measuring the
    amount of light...not the temp of it.




    "Bart van der Wolf" <> wrote in message
    news:40d7216b$0$35145$4all.nl...
    >
    > "Gene Palmiter" <> wrote in message
    > news:SADBc.13279$...
    > > A white card and a grey card have the same color balance....strange but
    > > true!

    >
    > Indeed they can have. When shot upclose, the exposure will be adjusted so
    > that both will be rendered approx. mid-gray. The only thing to avoid from
    > there, is fluorescent white.
    >
    > A gray card produced for the purpose of measuring refectance will probably
    > be okay on both the white (no smudges) and the gray side. A piece of
    > ordinary paper may have optical brighteners added, avoid those (if needed
    > check for fluorescence with a "black light" that emits large amounts of

    near
    > UV).
    >
    > Bart
    >
    Gene Palmiter, Jun 21, 2004
    #4
  5. It looks to me like you didn't understand the gist of my post.

    Besides, white gray and black ARE colors, but with zero saturation, and they
    are supposed to reflect all wavelights of the spectrum with equal intensity
    to the incident spectrum's composition. If the reflection adds blue/green
    due to fluorecence, the whitebalancing will be off the mark.

    Bart

    "Gene Palmiter" <> wrote in message
    news:5SGBc.16860$...
    > Ignore that man! White, Grey, and black are NOT colors! The white balance
    > for all are the same! (ok...don't know what black will do) White balancing
    > measures the color temperature of the light.....look....its all too much

    for
    > a quick post. Go look it up! And Bart...your bit...that is for measuring

    the
    > amount of light...not the temp of it.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > "Bart van der Wolf" <> wrote in message
    > news:40d7216b$0$35145$4all.nl...
    > >
    > > "Gene Palmiter" <> wrote in message
    > > news:SADBc.13279$...
    > > > A white card and a grey card have the same color balance....strange

    but
    > > > true!

    > >
    > > Indeed they can have. When shot upclose, the exposure will be adjusted

    so
    > > that both will be rendered approx. mid-gray. The only thing to avoid

    from
    > > there, is fluorescent white.
    > >
    > > A gray card produced for the purpose of measuring refectance will

    probably
    > > be okay on both the white (no smudges) and the gray side. A piece of
    > > ordinary paper may have optical brighteners added, avoid those (if

    needed
    > > check for fluorescence with a "black light" that emits large amounts of

    > near
    > > UV).
    > >
    > > Bart
    > >

    >
    >
    Bart van der Wolf, Jun 21, 2004
    #5
  6. "Bart van der Wolf" <> wrote in message
    news:40d763a7$0$35145$4all.nl...
    > It looks to me like you didn't understand the gist of my post.
    >
    > Besides, white gray and black ARE colors, but with zero saturation, and

    they
    > are supposed to reflect all wavelights of the spectrum with equal

    intensity
    > to the incident spectrum's composition. If the reflection adds

    blue/green
    > due to fluorecence, the whitebalancing will be off the mark.
    >
    > Bart


    Essentially, the more you pay for a grey-card or white-card, the closer
    they will be to a true uniform reflection, where all wavelengths of light
    are reflected equally. But even the most enpensive vard will not be
    perfect, and will therefore have a colour, albeit a colour of a very low
    saturation (colour intensity).

    What you (the OP) are looking for is uniformity. Whether you are more
    likely to get this is a special-purpose photographic card, or in some
    "white" paper, is something the group might like to discuss....

    Cheers,
    David
    David J Taylor, Jun 22, 2004
    #6
  7. Cooter

    Terry Guest

    David J Taylor wrote:

    >Essentially, the more you pay for a grey-card or white-card, the closer
    >they will be to a true uniform reflection, where all wavelengths of light
    >are reflected equally. But even the most enpensive vard will not be
    >perfect, and will therefore have a colour, albeit a colour of a very low
    >saturation (colour intensity).


    I have a minolta A2, and use the white side of a Kodak gray card for
    color balance. This works well. However, in very bright sun, the A2
    gives an error message. The manual says this is normal, and to use a
    gray card for color balance in this situation. I have tried this, and
    I don't get the error, but the color rendition is bad (too blue). I
    get much better color balance in bright sun using the fixed Daylight
    setting than using a custom balance off the gray card. That's an
    acceptable solution (for me), but any thoughts for why this might be?

    Terry
    Terry, Jun 22, 2004
    #7
  8. "Terry" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    []
    > I have a minolta A2, and use the white side of a Kodak gray card for
    > color balance. This works well. However, in very bright sun, the A2
    > gives an error message. The manual says this is normal, and to use a
    > gray card for color balance in this situation. I have tried this, and
    > I don't get the error, but the color rendition is bad (too blue). I
    > get much better color balance in bright sun using the fixed Daylight
    > setting than using a custom balance off the gray card. That's an
    > acceptable solution (for me), but any thoughts for why this might be?
    >
    > Terry


    I once used a Minolta A2, but rejected it in part because the firmware
    defects of the A1 had not been fixed in the A2.

    It sounds as if the dynamic range of the sensor is limited in bright
    sunlight. I have also seen this on other digital cameras (the lens is not
    allowed to stop down to a small enough value, because that would cause
    diffraction effects to limit the resolution....).

    Perhaps your grey card is not as grey as you thought, or perhaps the
    Minolta firmware actually can't handle the bright sun situation correctly,
    even with a grey rather than a white card? The other classic effect in
    bright sunlight conditions is when the scene is exposed just to blue sky,
    with no direct sunlight - a north facing scene for example. Is that
    causing your problem?

    Cheers,
    David
    David J Taylor, Jun 22, 2004
    #8
  9. Cooter

    Terry Guest

    David J Taylor wrote:

    >"Terry" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >[]
    >> I have a minolta A2, and use the white side of a Kodak gray card for
    >> color balance. This works well. However, in very bright sun, the A2
    >> gives an error message. The manual says this is normal, and to use a
    >> gray card for color balance in this situation. I have tried this, and
    >> I don't get the error, but the color rendition is bad (too blue). I
    >> get much better color balance in bright sun using the fixed Daylight
    >> setting than using a custom balance off the gray card. That's an
    >> acceptable solution (for me), but any thoughts for why this might be?

    >
    >It sounds as if the dynamic range of the sensor is limited in bright
    >sunlight. I have also seen this on other digital cameras (the lens is not
    >allowed to stop down to a small enough value, because that would cause
    >diffraction effects to limit the resolution....).


    No, the camera is exposing things properly in the bright sunlight.
    And, as I say, if I select Daylight mode, the color balance is good.

    >Perhaps your grey card is not as grey as you thought, or perhaps the
    >Minolta firmware actually can't handle the bright sun situation correctly,
    >even with a grey rather than a white card?


    Could be either of these. I thought the Kodak card would be reliable,
    but... And since the camera manual mentioned to use a gray card in
    bright light, I thought they would have tested it, but... :)

    >The other classic effect in
    >bright sunlight conditions is when the scene is exposed just to blue sky,
    >with no direct sunlight - a north facing scene for example. Is that
    >causing your problem?


    No, happens on all shots, in all directions. And again, it doesn't
    happen when you select Daylight setting.

    Terry
    Terry, Jun 22, 2004
    #9
  10. "Terry" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    []
    > No, happens on all shots, in all directions. And again, it doesn't
    > happen when you select Daylight setting.
    >
    > Terry


    It would be interesting to hear from another A2 owner. I was so disgusted
    with mine I sent it back. I did see a firmware update announced recently,
    though.

    Cheers,
    David
    David J Taylor, Jun 22, 2004
    #10
  11. Cooter

    Donald Gray Guest

    On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:39:37 +0200, "Bart van der Wolf"
    <> wrote:

    >It looks to me like you didn't understand the gist of my post.
    >
    >Besides, white gray and black ARE colors,

    []

    White & Grey are combinations of colours in equal proportions but
    black is definitely not a colour - It is the absence of all colours!


    --
    Donald Gray
    Putting ODCOMBE on the Global Village Map!
    www.odcombe.demon.co.uk
    You do not have to email me, but if you wish to...
    Please remove the SafetyPin from my email address first
    Thanks
    Donald Gray, Jun 22, 2004
    #11
  12. "Donald Gray" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:39:37 +0200, "Bart van der Wolf"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >It looks to me like you didn't understand the gist of my post.
    > >
    > >Besides, white gray and black ARE colors,

    > []
    >
    > White & Grey are combinations of colours in equal proportions but
    > black is definitely not a colour - It is the absence of all colours!


    Actually it is defined as zero Luminance, with ANY color. Besides, true
    black only exists in a theoretical Blackbody object.

    Bart
    Bart van der Wolf, Jun 23, 2004
    #12
  13. Cooter

    Donald Gray Guest

    On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 01:07:20 +0200, "Bart van der Wolf"
    <> wrote:

    >
    >"Donald Gray" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:39:37 +0200, "Bart van der Wolf"
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >It looks to me like you didn't understand the gist of my post.
    >> >
    >> >Besides, white gray and black ARE colors,

    >> []
    >>
    >> White & Grey are combinations of colours in equal proportions but
    >> black is definitely not a colour - It is the absence of all colours!

    >
    >Actually it is defined as zero Luminance, with ANY color. Besides, true
    >black only exists in a theoretical Blackbody object.
    >
    >Bart

    Not that I want to contradict you Bart, but your statement is
    contradictory itself; "A true black."

    Black is black. If it were not "true black" it would not be black, as
    you put it.

    Black is:
    1) the visual representation of the absence of ALL colours.
    2) the total absorbtion of all colours of the spectrum

    (By 'white light' I infer a pure unadulterated white. White is white.)

    Black does exist in the real world - It is not theoretical 'blackbody
    object' EG: place yourself in a perfect darkroom. open your eyes. what
    do you see: Nix, nowt, nuffink, bugger all.... Now, THATS BLACK!
    --
    Donald Gray
    Putting ODCOMBE on the Global Village Map!
    www.odcombe.demon.co.uk
    You do not have to email me, but if you wish to...
    Please remove the SafetyPin from my email address first
    Thanks
    Donald Gray, Jun 24, 2004
    #13
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