Which Switch? 6500--4500--3750

Discussion in 'Cisco' started by David Wood, Dec 22, 2005.

  1. David Wood

    David Wood Guest

    The company I work for is currently planning to upgrade existing switches -
    Catalyst 5000 & 5500 - to more modern technology. The plan is to replace
    all with 6500 chassis units-but these seem to be very high priced and are
    they suited to plug in end user computers? My understanding is that the
    6500 would be used as a core switch - maybe with high speed fiber modules to
    other switches.

    The alternatives are the 4500 range & 3750 stackable. I'd be interested in
    anyone's implementations using the 3 switch types and recommendations of
    suitability. We plan to use VOIP sometime soon so this is also a
    consideration.
     
    David Wood, Dec 22, 2005
    #1
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  2. David Wood

    karateD Guest

    Re: Which Switch? 6500--4500--3750

    if you can afford it, the 6500 switches are a great choice for the
    expandability, the port density available, the many types of modules
    and tecnologies supported. In my workplace, our 65xx are acting as all
    3 - core, access, and edge. We have MSFC's - key for speed troughout.
    We also have VoIP - we have modules supporting T1's coming in, we are
    using a firewall module to separate voice from data traffic (this was a
    litle buggy at first), and on our 6513's, wich are jampacked, we have
    phones on over half the ports. Traffic on the switch never goes above
    20percent. If you have the money, this is a great solution.
    At other sites where we are not using VoIP we are using 3550's ...
    The price was better although. Wehad to get multiple for more ports.

    Hth
     
    karateD, Dec 22, 2005
    #2
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  3. David Wood

    Guest

    Re: Which Switch? 6500--4500--3750

    All of the above are great solutions - you just need to do some network
    capacity planning.



    Macroscape Solutions, Inc
    http://www.macroscape.com
     
    , Dec 23, 2005
    #3
  4. David Wood

    Hansang Bae Guest

    Re: Which Switch? 6500--4500--3750

    David Wood wrote:
    > The company I work for is currently planning to upgrade existing
    > switches - Catalyst 5000 & 5500 - to more modern technology. The
    > plan is to replace all with 6500 chassis units-but these seem to be
    > very high priced and are they suited to plug in end user computers?
    > My understanding is that the 6500 would be used as a core switch -
    > maybe with high speed fiber modules to other switches.
    >
    > The alternatives are the 4500 range & 3750 stackable. I'd be
    > interested in anyone's implementations using the 3 switch types and
    > recommendations of suitability. We plan to use VOIP sometime soon so
    > this is also a consideration.


    Haven't used 4500's so I can't comment. But 3750 stackable were
    lacking key SNMP monitoring capabilities so we punted on those. If PoE
    is a consideration, make sure you do the power calculation. You'll
    have to decide between Cisco power and af compliant power ratings. So
    plan your power supplies accordingly.

    --

    hsb


    "Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding" Calvin
    **************************ROT13 MY ADDRESS*************************
    Due to the volume of email that I receive, I may not be able to
    reply to emails sent to my account. Please post a followup instead.
    ********************************************************************
     
    Hansang Bae, Dec 23, 2005
    #4
  5. David Wood

    Merv Guest

    Re: Which Switch? 6500--4500--3750

    Typically 6500 would be overkill for anything but core switches in most
    networks.

    Many networks would be just fine using the 4500 with SUP V engine as
    core switches

    For access switches looks at the security features you need to protect
    your network.

    Also think long and hard about have layer 3 access switches instead of
    layer 2...

    I would certainly consider the 3750 stackables as layer 3 accesss
    switches
     
    Merv, Dec 23, 2005
    #5
  6. David Wood

    slim Guest

    Re: Which Switch? 6500--4500--3750

    Hansang Bae wrote:
    > David Wood wrote:
    >
    >>The company I work for is currently planning to upgrade existing
    >>switches - Catalyst 5000 & 5500 - to more modern technology. The
    >>plan is to replace all with 6500 chassis units-but these seem to be
    >>very high priced and are they suited to plug in end user computers?
    >>My understanding is that the 6500 would be used as a core switch -
    >>maybe with high speed fiber modules to other switches.
    >>
    >>The alternatives are the 4500 range & 3750 stackable. I'd be
    >>interested in anyone's implementations using the 3 switch types and
    >>recommendations of suitability. We plan to use VOIP sometime soon so
    >>this is also a consideration.

    >
    >
    > Haven't used 4500's so I can't comment. But 3750 stackable were
    > lacking key SNMP monitoring capabilities so we punted on those. If PoE
    > is a consideration, make sure you do the power calculation. You'll
    > have to decide between Cisco power and af compliant power ratings. So
    > plan your power supplies accordingly.
    >


    Hansang -

    Could you elaborate on what you meant by the 3750's not supporting key
    SNMP features? We just finished our core upgrade design, and one of the
    final designs called for 3750's in the server farm and closet
    aggregation modules. We went with a 6500-based solution, but I'm
    interested in hearing what limitations you've seen.

    Good SNMP support is important for us too...we don't run any commercial
    network management apps. We use NMIS, Cacti, Nedi, Cisco SDM and Network
    Assistant, and other opensource tools. BTW, thanks for the comments on
    the cert forum a couple of weeks back. :)
     
    slim, Dec 23, 2005
    #6
  7. David Wood

    Steinar Haug Guest

    Re: Which Switch? 6500--4500--3750

    > Could you elaborate on what you meant by the 3750's not supporting key
    > SNMP features? We just finished our core upgrade design, and one of
    > the final designs called for 3750's in the server farm and closet
    > aggregation modules. We went with a 6500-based solution, but I'm
    > interested in hearing what limitations you've seen.


    As far as I know the 3750 has the same problem as the 3550 - if you have
    vlan-based IP interfaces (SVIs) you can't get SNMP statistics for these.
    I don't know if this is what Hansang Bae was referring to.

    Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting,
     
    Steinar Haug, Dec 23, 2005
    #7
  8. David Wood

    karateD Guest

    Re: Which Switch? 6500--4500--3750

    David,

    Sorry, I should of mentioned the fact that all of the cabling from my
    office comes into one main computer room. There are no hall wiring
    closets! Obviously this influenced our decision to go with a few big
    chasses versus a number of smaller switches. It is easier for our cable
    mgmt. - As for wiring closets in a hallway, 65xx's seem like overkill.
    Good luck ...
     
    karateD, Dec 23, 2005
    #8
  9. Hi,

    The answer; it depends :)

    In your case I would go for the 4500's with SupII+ or SupV supervisors. If
    you're going to use them as access switches you'll probably not need the
    brute performance of the 6500's, certainly not if you're going to implement
    VoIP with 100Mbps ethernet ports on the phones. As for the 6500's options to
    add special blades like firewalls and stuff, it depends if you need these
    options. The 3750's are a little more expensive if you need more ports w/
    PoE than buying PoE line cards for the 4500's. Besides this, the 3750's
    offer good performance and features comparable to the 4500's. The 3750 does
    offer more redundancy if used in a stack than the 450(3/6)'s do because of
    the redundant switch engine you get when combining 3750's in a stack. The
    same level of redundancy can be accomplished using 4507's with two
    supervisors.
    Maybe a combination of 3750's and 4500's ? Do you have multiple patch
    locations? Do they all require the as many ports? Smaller locations could be
    equiped with 3750's more cost-effectively.

    Erik

    "David Wood" <> wrote in message
    news:doeqtp$3su$2surf.net...
    >
    > The company I work for is currently planning to upgrade existing
    > switches - Catalyst 5000 & 5500 - to more modern technology. The plan is
    > to replace all with 6500 chassis units-but these seem to be very high
    > priced and are they suited to plug in end user computers? My
    > understanding is that the 6500 would be used as a core switch - maybe with
    > high speed fiber modules to other switches.
    >
    > The alternatives are the 4500 range & 3750 stackable. I'd be interested
    > in anyone's implementations using the 3 switch types and recommendations
    > of suitability. We plan to use VOIP sometime soon so this is also a
    > consideration.
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
    Erik Tamminga, Dec 30, 2005
    #9
  10. David Wood

    David Wood Guest

    Regarding patch locations they are located one per floor in a tower block
    with the core at ground level and WAN connection
    Another building has only 2 closets for 5 floors and some of the lengths are
    over 90meters!

    This might be of interest-comparison document of the relative backplane
    speed

    5000
    Modular
    Shared bus
    1.2 Gbps

    5500
    Modular
    Crossbar
    3.6 Gbps

    6000
    Modular
    Shared bus
    32 Gbps

    6500 with SFM
    Modular
    Crossbar
    256 Gbps

    6500 with Supervisor 720
    Modular
    Crossbar
    360 Gbps (720 full duplex)

    4500
    Modular
    Centralized
    64 Gbps

    3750
    Fixed-Stackable
    Dual Ring
    32 Gbps







    "Erik Tamminga" <> wrote in message
    news:dp36u9$r5k$1.ov.home.nl...
    > Hi,
    >
    > The answer; it depends :)
    >
    > In your case I would go for the 4500's with SupII+ or SupV supervisors. If
    > you're going to use them as access switches you'll probably not need the
    > brute performance of the 6500's, certainly not if you're going to
    > implement VoIP with 100Mbps ethernet ports on the phones. As for the
    > 6500's options to add special blades like firewalls and stuff, it depends
    > if you need these options. The 3750's are a little more expensive if you
    > need more ports w/ PoE than buying PoE line cards for the 4500's. Besides
    > this, the 3750's offer good performance and features comparable to the
    > 4500's. The 3750 does offer more redundancy if used in a stack than the
    > 450(3/6)'s do because of the redundant switch engine you get when
    > combining 3750's in a stack. The same level of redundancy can be
    > accomplished using 4507's with two supervisors.
    > Maybe a combination of 3750's and 4500's ? Do you have multiple patch
    > locations? Do they all require the as many ports? Smaller locations could
    > be equiped with 3750's more cost-effectively.
    >
    > Erik
    >
    > "David Wood" <> wrote in message
    > news:doeqtp$3su$2surf.net...
    >>
    >> The company I work for is currently planning to upgrade existing
    >> switches - Catalyst 5000 & 5500 - to more modern technology. The plan is
    >> to replace all with 6500 chassis units-but these seem to be very high
    >> priced and are they suited to plug in end user computers? My
    >> understanding is that the 6500 would be used as a core switch - maybe
    >> with high speed fiber modules to other switches.
    >>
    >> The alternatives are the 4500 range & 3750 stackable. I'd be interested
    >> in anyone's implementations using the 3 switch types and recommendations
    >> of suitability. We plan to use VOIP sometime soon so this is also a
    >> consideration.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
     
    David Wood, Dec 30, 2005
    #10
  11. Hi David,

    Backplane speed is always a discussion; but in my opinion; how ofter are you
    getting anywhere near the backplane-speed offered by mothern switches. For
    example; if you take the 4500's with their 64Gbps backplane speed; that
    would take 64 hosts connected to a single switch at full blast to get there.
    Or when using only 100Mbps desktop connections 640 hosts.
    Given the fact you have multiple patch locations, I would consider two
    4500's (SupV) at the core and stacks of a couple 3750's at each floor.
    Dual-interconnect the floors to the core with fiber patches. As soon as
    you're hitting 3750 stacks of 3 or more units it might be worth
    investigating 4500's (Sup II+) (looking at price per port).

    Erik

    "David Wood" <> wrote in message
    news:dp3f3m$518$2surf.net...
    > Regarding patch locations they are located one per floor in a tower block
    > with the core at ground level and WAN connection
    > Another building has only 2 closets for 5 floors and some of the lengths
    > are over 90meters!
    >
    > This might be of interest-comparison document of the relative backplane
    > speed
    >
    > 5000
    > Modular
    > Shared bus
    > 1.2 Gbps
    >
    > 5500
    > Modular
    > Crossbar
    > 3.6 Gbps
    >
    > 6000
    > Modular
    > Shared bus
    > 32 Gbps
    >
    > 6500 with SFM
    > Modular
    > Crossbar
    > 256 Gbps
    >
    > 6500 with Supervisor 720
    > Modular
    > Crossbar
    > 360 Gbps (720 full duplex)
    >
    > 4500
    > Modular
    > Centralized
    > 64 Gbps
    >
    > 3750
    > Fixed-Stackable
    > Dual Ring
    > 32 Gbps
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > "Erik Tamminga" <> wrote in message
    > news:dp36u9$r5k$1.ov.home.nl...
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> The answer; it depends :)
    >>
    >> In your case I would go for the 4500's with SupII+ or SupV supervisors.
    >> If you're going to use them as access switches you'll probably not need
    >> the brute performance of the 6500's, certainly not if you're going to
    >> implement VoIP with 100Mbps ethernet ports on the phones. As for the
    >> 6500's options to add special blades like firewalls and stuff, it depends
    >> if you need these options. The 3750's are a little more expensive if you
    >> need more ports w/ PoE than buying PoE line cards for the 4500's. Besides
    >> this, the 3750's offer good performance and features comparable to the
    >> 4500's. The 3750 does offer more redundancy if used in a stack than the
    >> 450(3/6)'s do because of the redundant switch engine you get when
    >> combining 3750's in a stack. The same level of redundancy can be
    >> accomplished using 4507's with two supervisors.
    >> Maybe a combination of 3750's and 4500's ? Do you have multiple patch
    >> locations? Do they all require the as many ports? Smaller locations could
    >> be equiped with 3750's more cost-effectively.
    >>
    >> Erik
    >>
    >> "David Wood" <> wrote in message
    >> news:doeqtp$3su$2surf.net...
    >>>
    >>> The company I work for is currently planning to upgrade existing
    >>> switches - Catalyst 5000 & 5500 - to more modern technology. The plan
    >>> is to replace all with 6500 chassis units-but these seem to be very high
    >>> priced and are they suited to plug in end user computers? My
    >>> understanding is that the 6500 would be used as a core switch - maybe
    >>> with high speed fiber modules to other switches.
    >>>
    >>> The alternatives are the 4500 range & 3750 stackable. I'd be interested
    >>> in anyone's implementations using the 3 switch types and recommendations
    >>> of suitability. We plan to use VOIP sometime soon so this is also a
    >>> consideration.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
     
    Erik Tamminga, Dec 30, 2005
    #11
  12. David Wood

    Guest

    Re: Which Switch? 6500--4500--3750


    >> 5500
    >> Modular
    >> Shared bus -- not Crossbar
    >> 3 x 1.2 Gbps busses -- not 3.6 Gbps
    >> groups of slots attach to each bus


    >> 6000
    >> Modular
    >> Shared bus
    >> 16 Gbps -- 32 MktGbps (Mkt = Marketing)



    >> 4500
    >> Modular
    >> Centralized
    >> 64 Gbps -- yes but each linecard has 6 x 1Gbps Full Duplex
    >> e.g. 48 port card, ports 1 - 8 use same 1G to backplane



    > Backplane speed is always a discussion; but in my opinion; how ofter are you
    > getting anywhere near the backplane-speed offered by mothern switches. For
    > example; if you take the 4500's with their 64Gbps backplane speed


    See edits in list at top

    With respect to the 4500 the limitations are not entirely academic.

    C4500#sh int cou det | beg Rx-No-Pkt-Buff
    Port Rx-No-Pkt-Buff
    Gi1/1 0
    Gi1/2 0
    Gi3/1 0
    Gi3/2 688
    Gi3/3 144558
    Gi3/4 0
    Gi3/5 249
    Gi3/6 10
    Gi3/7 0
    Gi3/8 0
    Gi3/9 0
    Gi3/10 22
    Gi3/11 0
    Gi3/12 0
    Gi3/13 19811
    Gi3/14 112546 <------
    Gi3/15 0
    Gi3/16 0
    Gi3/17 0
    Gi3/18 0
    Gi3/19 0
    Gi3/20 0
    Gi3/21 0
    Gi3/22 20552
    Gi3/23 2768


    Description: BACKUP1
    Full-duplex, 1000Mb/s, link type is auto, media type is
    10/100/1000-TX

    Input queue: 0/2000/0/0 (size/max/drops/flushes); Total output drops:
    0

    288959233 packets input, 430793718944 bytes, 0 no buffer
    Received 38632 broadcasts (0 multicast)
    0 runts, 0 giants, 0 throttles
    112546 input errors <-------

    This is a production box and I assume that these
    counters indicate that we are oversubscribing the
    1G paths to the fabric from the linecards.

    This is not unlikely since we have loads of meaty 1G
    servers on these ports.
     
    , Dec 30, 2005
    #12
  13. David Wood

    Hansang Bae Guest

    Re: Which Switch? 6500--4500--3750

    > Could you elaborate on what you meant by the 3750's not supporting
    > key SNMP features? We just finished our core upgrade design, and one
    > of the final designs called for 3750's in the server farm and closet
    > aggregation modules. We went with a 6500-based solution, but I'm
    > interested in hearing what limitations you've seen.
    >
    > Good SNMP support is important for us too..

    [snip]


    When you power down the master, the management IP stops responding for
    a few seconds, but SNMP agent will report it's down for about 30
    seconds. This can cause false triggers depending on one's threshold

    After removing a stack member, you can still configure it via the
    master as if it were still there. SNMP host reports the removed switch
    ports with status of "admin up" (hardware present) & "operation down"
    (not connected). If SNMP is configured to keep polling the ports of the
    removed stack member, it'll continue to get generate false alarms
    (unless you go in and run the "shutdown" commands on the removed
    interfaces).

    Also, you get conflicting information via IFTable MIB and STACK MIBs.
    so this too can generate false information.


    > BTW, thanks
    > for the comments on the cert forum a couple of weeks back. :)


    Anytime!

    --

    hsb


    "Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding" Calvin
    **************************ROT13 MY ADDRESS*************************
    Due to the volume of email that I receive, I may not be able to
    reply to emails sent to my account. Please post a followup instead.
    ********************************************************************
     
    Hansang Bae, Dec 31, 2005
    #13
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