Which D-SLR would you choose?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Chuck Taylor, Nov 30, 2005.

  1. Chuck Taylor

    Chuck Taylor Guest

    I'm a neophyte digital camera user, trying to decide which digital SLR
    camera to buy. I am considering two options, both priced roughly the
    same:

    1) A friend's used Fujifilm Finepix S2 Pro w/ Nikon Zoom Telephoto
    70-210mm f/4.5-5.6
    2) A brand-new Canon EOS Digital Rebel XT w/ Canon EF-S 18-85mm f/4-5.6
    lens

    Which would you choose? Which Canon or Nikon digital camera models are
    the closest comparisons to the Fujifilm Finepix S2 Pro camera?

    Thanks, in advance, for your advice. I value your opinions.
     
    Chuck Taylor, Nov 30, 2005
    #1
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  2. Chuck Taylor

    Paul Rubin Guest

    "Chuck Taylor" <> writes:
    > I'm a neophyte digital camera user, trying to decide which digital SLR
    > camera to buy.


    If you're a neophyte, why do you think a DSLR is right for you? I'm
    not saying it isn't, but if you have a reason to think it is, you
    probably also know your own requirements well enough to decide for
    yourself.

    > Which would you choose? Which Canon or Nikon digital camera models are
    > the closest comparisons to the Fujifilm Finepix S2 Pro camera?


    There aren't any that are really close. Better read the S2 reviews
    carefully. The S2 is kind of a weird camera. It might be super for
    you or it might not be what you want at all. With the Canon, you
    can't go too far wrong.
     
    Paul Rubin, Nov 30, 2005
    #2
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  3. Chuck Taylor

    uw_wayne Guest

    Understand that Canon lens will not fit on the S2. It was made from a
    Nikon body and will accept only Nikon lenses and not all of them at
    that. The 70-200 lens is a telephoto allowing you to shoot pictures far
    away and making them look close up. The 18-85 is a wide angle lens
    allowing to you to capture everything you see from close up. Do a
    little more home work before you spend your money. It will be worth
    your time to do so. Have fun.
     
    uw_wayne, Nov 30, 2005
    #3
  4. "Chuck Taylor" <> writes:

    > I'm a neophyte digital camera user, trying to decide which digital SLR
    > camera to buy. I am considering two options, both priced roughly the
    > same:
    >
    > 1) A friend's used Fujifilm Finepix S2 Pro w/ Nikon Zoom Telephoto
    > 70-210mm f/4.5-5.6
    > 2) A brand-new Canon EOS Digital Rebel XT w/ Canon EF-S 18-85mm f/4-5.6
    > lens
    >
    > Which would you choose? Which Canon or Nikon digital camera models are
    > the closest comparisons to the Fujifilm Finepix S2 Pro camera?


    Well, I've *got* a Fuji S2 currently, and it's a great camera. I
    chose it in preference to the Nikon D100 (a near-twin; in fact it's
    the same camera body, just different electronics in it). But I was
    already a Nikon system user with a lot of lenses, so I wasn't looking
    at the Canon side of the house.

    In *current* models the Nikon D70 is probably the best analogy to the
    S2. In Canon models, perhaps the 10D (not really quite a current
    model; but then neither is the S2).

    A Rebel XT is a *current* generation low end DSLR. I'd describe the
    S2 as a previous-generaion semi-pro model (I've sure seen a lot of
    pros using them, but that N80 body it's based on sure isn't a
    pro-level body). On the individual cameras, there are benefits
    advantages and disadvantages both ways.

    In addition, you're choosing between the Canon and Nikon lens systems,
    and future bodies (to some extent; you *can* always switch later, but
    it's kinda expensive). Right this instant the Canon system of bodies
    has some definite advantages in the high-end professional models
    (though the Nikon D2X is a fine camera for many environments).
    However, I wouldn't count on it staying that way forever. And how
    many high-end professional bodies are you planning to buy? So far in
    *my* crazed amateur photography career (spanning 36 years), the only
    pro-level cameras I've owned I bought 20 or more years after they were
    current, which hardly counts.

    The question of full-frame vs. cropped sensor is highly religious. If
    you're the sort of photographer who *needs* a 14mm rectilinear lens on
    your 35mm camera, and are perhaps seriously considering a 12mm, then
    the cropped sensors are not for you.

    If you're the sort who needs a 300mm f2.8, lusts after a 400mm f2.8,
    and would kill for a 600mm f4, the cropped sensors are your best
    friends (and there are special lenses from Nikon, Canon, and
    independent lens manufacturers that get you out to 15mm equiv. on a
    1.5x sensor, 16mm equiv. on a 1.6x sensor, so you don't lose that
    severely on the wide end if you're willing to buy *one* more lens).

    Between these extremes, there's a huge range where either one could
    make sense. Note what the Canon 1Ds mk II full-frame body costs; or
    even what the 5D body costs.

    Be realistic. Note what the Nikon 14mm lens costs, or (much worse)
    any of the 400mm f2.8 lenses. No point driving your whole decision by
    something you're never going to actually own.

    Both Canon and Nikon equipment is easily capable of taking *really
    incredibly HORRIBLE* photos; *you* are the most important component in
    the photographic system. The Canon Rebel XT, the Nikon D70, or that
    used Fuji S2 are all very versatile and good photographic tools. None
    of them are *as* powerful or versatile as a Nikon D2x or a Canon 1Ds
    mk II, in various ways (they're not as heavy, or as expensive,
    either). From the information you have put forward, I wouldn't say
    that any one of those three would be a bad choice for you.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Nov 30, 2005
    #4
  5. Paul Rubin <http://> writes:

    > "Chuck Taylor" <> writes:
    > > I'm a neophyte digital camera user, trying to decide which digital SLR
    > > camera to buy.

    >
    > If you're a neophyte, why do you think a DSLR is right for you? I'm
    > not saying it isn't, but if you have a reason to think it is, you
    > probably also know your own requirements well enough to decide for
    > yourself.


    That's a good point to raise, that I skipped over. I just assumed he
    wanted what he wanted, but in fact questioning it is worth doing.

    > > Which would you choose? Which Canon or Nikon digital camera models are
    > > the closest comparisons to the Fujifilm Finepix S2 Pro camera?

    >
    > There aren't any that are really close. Better read the S2 reviews
    > carefully. The S2 is kind of a weird camera. It might be super for
    > you or it might not be what you want at all. With the Canon, you
    > can't go too far wrong.


    The S2 isn't *that* weird. It's nearly identical to the Nikon D100,
    making it very similar to the D70, I'd say.

    I'd say with the S2 he can't go too far wrong either. Other than the
    obvious (takes Canon lenses instead of Nikon), what does the Rebel XT
    do clearly better than the S2? (I'm not suggesting there's *nothing*
    it does better; I just can't think of anything off the top of my head,
    which may be because I'm not very knowledgable about the Canon
    cameras).

    Coming up with a list of things the S2 and the Rebel XT can do that
    the other can't is an interesting exercise, and seems very relevant to
    the original question.

    Let's see. I think the S2 handles TTL flash exposure quite poorly (it
    doesn't speak the iTTL protocol, and in my experience tends to expose
    flash somewhat randomly; I use manual or exposure compensation A LOT
    when shooting flash with my S2). I wouldn't be at all surprised if
    the Rebel XT handled TTL flash automation better than the S2 (I hear
    that the modern Nikon digitals handle flash generally significantly
    better than the modern Canons, but as we have already agreeed, the
    Fuji S2 is not a modern Nikon digital :)).

    That exhausts the things I know enough about both cameras to have an
    opinion on. Anybody else?
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Nov 30, 2005
    #5
  6. "uw_wayne" <> writes:

    > Understand that Canon lens will not fit on the S2. It was made from a
    > Nikon body and will accept only Nikon lenses and not all of them at
    > that.


    It will accept a far, far larger percentage of Nikon lenses than the
    Rebel XT will of Canon lenses. Because Canon orphaned their old lens
    mount when they introduced the autofocus EOS camera series in the
    1980s, and Nikon did not. I'm still using Nikon lenses I bought in
    the very early 1980s on my Fuji S2, they work fine.

    > The 70-200 lens is a telephoto allowing you to shoot pictures far
    > away and making them look close up. The 18-85 is a wide angle lens
    > allowing to you to capture everything you see from close up. Do a
    > little more home work before you spend your money. It will be worth
    > your time to do so. Have fun.


    The 18mm end is a fairly wide wideangle, but the 85 end is solidly
    into medium telephoto territory on a 1.5/1.6x sensor camera.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Nov 30, 2005
    #6
  7. Chuck Taylor

    Paul Rubin Guest

    David Dyer-Bennet <> writes:
    > Coming up with a list of things the S2 and the Rebel XT can do that
    > the other can't is an interesting exercise, and seems very relevant to
    > the original question.


    The S2 is much bigger, heavier, handles more slowly (I think), has
    Firewire instead of USB(?), etc. It has the weird hexagonal CCD so
    the output files have more pixels than the sensor itself has. Also,
    it's an older camera and doesn't have a warranty.
     
    Paul Rubin, Nov 30, 2005
    #7
  8. Chuck Taylor

    Paul Rubin Guest

    David Dyer-Bennet <> writes:
    > I'm still using Nikon lenses I bought in the very early 1980s on my
    > Fuji S2, they work fine.


    Can you use the exposure meter at all with those lenses? I thought
    the S2 used the F80 metering system, like the D100 did.
     
    Paul Rubin, Nov 30, 2005
    #8
  9. Chuck Taylor

    Guest

    The answer for me is simple. I buy Nikon - period! I have been buying
    Nikon since 1959 when I bought my first Nikon F. In August 2004 I
    switched to digital. I now have a D70 and a D70S and sold all my old
    Nikon lenses and Nikon film cameras. I now have the Nikon: 12-24mm,
    28-200mm "G", 200mm f4 "macro", and the 80-400mm VR. The lenses are all
    superb.

    I don't shoot sports so have no need for a "fast" lens. When shooting
    nature, most of what I shoot these days, I shut down to a minimum of
    f5.6 so have no need for the super fast, super expensive Nikon lenses.

    If I were starting fresh, or if someone asks me, I would advise them to
    buy Canon. I think they are more innovative and have some great
    products - especially a super macro lens [close-up only - it won't
    focus at infinity but goes to 5X without bellows, extension tubes or
    other such artifacts and for which Nikon has nothing similar], and
    unlike the old days [1960s] make reliable products. I have never had a
    Nikon that broke except through MY misuse [dropping it in a mountain
    stream, shoving the memory card in the wrong way and bending the pins].

    I will buy the D200 the second it is available. The sensor technology
    and internal software algorithms just keep improving!

    Another horrid thing about Nikon is their idiotic policy, which MAYBE
    they are revising, where their RAW images can't be processed by
    Photoshop CS2. While there is now a fix from Adobe for the D70S, you
    may be forced to buy the absolute crap software Nikon shoves down your
    throat so you can deal with their proprietary RAW format. Grow up
    Nikon. Idiotic policies like this are partially responsible for why I
    recommend Canon for newbies. Installing the Nikon software actually
    screws up your Photoshop CS2. Shame on Nikon!!

    Tom Roach
     
    , Nov 30, 2005
    #9
  10. On 30 Nov 2005 05:15:37 -0800, ""
    <> wrote:

    >The answer for me is simple. I buy Nikon - period! I have been buying
    >Nikon since 1959 when I bought my first Nikon F. In August 2004 I
    >switched to digital. I now have a D70 and a D70S and sold all my old
    >Nikon lenses and Nikon film cameras. I now have the Nikon: 12-24mm,
    >28-200mm "G", 200mm f4 "macro", and the 80-400mm VR. The lenses are all
    >superb.
    >
    >I don't shoot sports so have no need for a "fast" lens. When shooting
    >nature, most of what I shoot these days, I shut down to a minimum of
    >f5.6 so have no need for the super fast, super expensive Nikon lenses.
    >
    >If I were starting fresh, or if someone asks me, I would advise them to
    >buy Canon. I think they are more innovative and have some great
    >products - especially a super macro lens [close-up only - it won't
    >focus at infinity but goes to 5X without bellows, extension tubes or
    >other such artifacts and for which Nikon has nothing similar], and
    >unlike the old days [1960s] make reliable products. I have never had a
    >Nikon that broke except through MY misuse [dropping it in a mountain
    >stream, shoving the memory card in the wrong way and bending the pins].
    >
    >I will buy the D200 the second it is available. The sensor technology
    >and internal software algorithms just keep improving!
    >
    >Another horrid thing about Nikon is their idiotic policy, which MAYBE
    >they are revising, where their RAW images can't be processed by
    >Photoshop CS2. While there is now a fix from Adobe for the D70S, you
    >may be forced to buy the absolute crap software Nikon shoves down your
    >throat so you can deal with their proprietary RAW format. Grow up
    >Nikon. Idiotic policies like this are partially responsible for why I
    >recommend Canon for newbies. Installing the Nikon software actually
    >screws up your Photoshop CS2. Shame on Nikon!!


    CS2 has supported the DX2 and D70S RAW since 3.2. and the others since
    3.1.

    http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/cameraraw.html

    Nikon and Adobe have kissed and made up...

    http://www.dpreview.com/news/0509/05090601nikon_adobe.asp


    *********************************************************

    "I have been a witness, and these pictures are
    my testimony. The events I have recorded should
    not be forgotten and must not be repeated."

    -James Nachtwey-
    http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/
     
    John A. Stovall, Nov 30, 2005
    #10
  11. Chuck Taylor

    Cuz Guest

    Chuck Taylor <> wrote:
    || I'm a neophyte digital camera user, trying to decide which
    || digital SLR camera to buy. I am considering two options,
    || both priced roughly the same:
    ||
    || 1) A friend's used Fujifilm Finepix S2 Pro w/ Nikon Zoom
    || Telephoto 70-210mm f/4.5-5.6
    || 2) A brand-new Canon EOS Digital Rebel XT w/ Canon EF-S
    || 18-85mm f/4-5.6 lens
    ||
    || Which would you choose? Which Canon or Nikon digital camera
    || models are the closest comparisons to the Fujifilm Finepix S2
    || Pro camera?
    ||
    || Thanks, in advance, for your advice. I value your opinions.

    I would choose the Canon EOS Digital Rebel XT. Of course I
    have a healthy investment in Canon AF lens accumulated over
    the years of owning Canon EOS film cameras.

    Cuz
     
    Cuz, Nov 30, 2005
    #11
  12. Chuck Taylor

    TJ Guest

    Been thru 2 Fuji Fine Pix digitals, one was an A310 and the other was a
    3800, both crapped out after about 14 months or so, and were WELL taken care
    of. Run as fast as U can from a Fuji...
     
    TJ, Nov 30, 2005
    #12
  13. Paul Rubin <http://> writes:

    > David Dyer-Bennet <> writes:
    > > Coming up with a list of things the S2 and the Rebel XT can do that
    > > the other can't is an interesting exercise, and seems very relevant to
    > > the original question.

    >
    > The S2 is much bigger, heavier, handles more slowly (I think), has
    > Firewire instead of USB(?), etc. It has the weird hexagonal CCD so
    > the output files have more pixels than the sensor itself has. Also,
    > it's an older camera and doesn't have a warranty.


    The S2 has both Firewire and USB for upload. Firewire only for camera
    control.

    The output files don't have more pixels than the sensor has, unless
    you select that option on the camera. Except possibly the RAW files;
    I haven't investigated their internal structure, and I can't make the
    numbers add up right *either* way. But they come out about 12MB.
    That's wrong for 12MP (too small) because they need more than 8 bits
    per pixel. It's wrong for 6MP (too big) because they shouldn't
    require a full 16 bits per pixel (they don't claim that many in the
    specs).

    What specifics of "slow handling"? I've touched a Rebel but not a
    Rebel XT, I think it is; but not enough to have any feel for
    productive use.

    Another good point that, in the particular situation, he's considering
    a *used* S2 against new cameras elsewhere.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Nov 30, 2005
    #13
  14. Paul Rubin <http://> writes:

    > David Dyer-Bennet <> writes:
    > > I'm still using Nikon lenses I bought in the very early 1980s on my
    > > Fuji S2, they work fine.

    >
    > Can you use the exposure meter at all with those lenses? I thought
    > the S2 used the F80 metering system, like the D100 did.


    The S2 specifically doesn't meter with non-chipped lenses, which
    includes essentially all the pre-AF lenses (unless modified).
    However, on a digital body, the lack of metering doesn't strike me as
    a particularly serious problem, and I use a old 24mm f2, a 58mm f1.2 NOCT,
    and a 135mm f2 quite frequently, and a 300mm f2.8 and a 105mm f2.5 now
    and then.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Nov 30, 2005
    #14
  15. "TJ" <> writes:

    > Been thru 2 Fuji Fine Pix digitals, one was an A310 and the other was a
    > 3800, both crapped out after about 14 months or so, and were WELL taken care
    > of. Run as fast as U can from a Fuji...


    I've had my S2 since December of 2002, almost three years now, and it
    works like new. Don't base your evaluations of a company on
    drastically different products!
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Nov 30, 2005
    #15
  16. Chuck Taylor

    Paul Rubin Guest

    "" <> writes:
    > Another horrid thing about Nikon is their idiotic policy, which MAYBE
    > they are revising, where their RAW images can't be processed by
    > Photoshop CS2. While there is now a fix from Adobe for the D70S, you
    > may be forced to buy the absolute crap software Nikon shoves down your
    > throat so you can deal with their proprietary RAW format. Grow up
    > Nikon. Idiotic policies like this are partially responsible for why I
    > recommend Canon for newbies. Installing the Nikon software actually
    > screws up your Photoshop CS2. Shame on Nikon!!


    Looks like the D200 will also use a proprietary RAW format that's
    maybe even worse than the D70S/D2X's. Nikon and Adobe have, as
    someone said, kissed up, which is to say they're now colluding against
    the consumer. That means Photoshop (at least with some new patch or
    in the next version) will surely support the D200. I'm waiting to see
    if the D200 seriously obstructs dcraw from supporting it.
     
    Paul Rubin, Nov 30, 2005
    #16
  17. Chuck Taylor

    ASAAR Guest

    On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:38:13 GMT, TJ wrote:

    > Been thru 2 Fuji Fine Pix digitals, one was an A310 and the other was a
    > 3800, both crapped out after about 14 months or so, and were WELL taken
    > care of. Run as fast as U can from a Fuji...


    I know of one Fuji A310 that still worked well after being
    mistreated (a Radio Shack demo camera). My own Fuji S5100 is about
    a year old and works as well as the first day I used it. The only
    abuse it has suffered is that I'll infrequently turn it on to
    "record" (take pictures) mode with the lens cap still on. That
    produces an error message but has never harmed anything. A couple
    of seconds after powering it off and back on (and removing the lens
    cap) and it's back in business. If Fujis are as unreliable as you
    seem to think they are, I might just have to get an S5200, in case
    the S5100 ever stops working. <g>
     
    ASAAR, Nov 30, 2005
    #17
  18. Am 29 Nov 2005 19:56:27 -0800 schrieb Chuck Taylor:

    > Thanks, in advance, for your advice. I value your opinions.


    For what kinda photography you want to use this camera mainly? People,
    landscape, sports, animal, children, travelling?

    The camera you mentioned cannot be compared, the lens range is way too
    different. Isn' the Canon lens the 17-85 with IS?

    There is no "generally best" camera covering every possible usage
    perfectly.

    Regards,
    Andi
     
    Andreas Buchner, Nov 30, 2005
    #18
  19. In article <>,
    Paul Rubin <http://> wrote:
    >Looks like the D200 will also use a proprietary RAW format that's
    >maybe even worse than the D70S/D2X's.


    It would make an excellent target for a boycott. But I guess that 99% of
    the potential buyers are going to buy one anyhow. It will not be until
    people figure out that they have no longer access to the images in their
    RAW files, that they start thinking about these issues.

    Do Adobe's RAW converters convert to DNG as well?


    --
    That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
    could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
    by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
     
    Philip Homburg, Nov 30, 2005
    #19
  20. Chuck Taylor

    Paul Rubin Guest

    (Philip Homburg) writes:
    > >Looks like the D200 will also use a proprietary RAW format that's
    > >maybe even worse than the D70S/D2X's.

    >
    > It would make an excellent target for a boycott.


    It's too early to tell whether the new RAW format will be harder
    to crack than the old.

    > But I guess that 99% of the potential buyers are going to buy one
    > anyhow.


    Then they're not really potential buyers.

    > It will not be until people figure out that they have no longer
    > access to the images in their RAW files, that they start thinking
    > about these issues.


    Most of them use software from companies in bed with Nikon
    (that now includes Adobe) so they won't notice any problem.

    > Do Adobe's RAW converters convert to DNG as well?


    They don't on my Linux box, that's for sure.
     
    Paul Rubin, Nov 30, 2005
    #20
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