Where is this going now!

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Jerry, Oct 1, 2004.

  1. Jerry

    Jerry Guest

    Today we were going to take pictures of our grandchild at a school award
    program , and we were informed that some new rules are in effect and NO
    pictures could be taken at any school functions anymore, unless we had
    permission from all the other parents. Some pictures was going to be taken
    in his classroom, but not now. It looks like Homeland security has taken
    things way too far as all the so called rule makers are going crazy. It
    seems like stupid ideas gets out of hand and snowballs.
    Lets see, if you take a picture of a scenic Downtown area, you are
    questioned as if you were a terrorist, if you take any pictures around or
    inside a school, your a pervert. If this keeps going someday you will need
    papers to walk down the street, Freedom gone.

    People go crazy on rumors, and they go overboard on them. Cell Phones will
    cause a GAS Station to blow up, Black mold is going to kill you, Lead paint
    inside of some 50 plus year old houses is going to kill you. Asbestos in 40
    plus old Schools is going to kill all the kids.
    All a bunch of Bull Shit.
    Jerry, Oct 1, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Jerry

    F I Nishing Guest

    Jerry wrote:
    > Today we were going to take pictures of our grandchild at a school award
    > program , and we were informed that some new rules are in effect and NO
    > pictures could be taken at any school functions anymore, unless we had
    > permission from all the other parents. Some pictures was going to be taken
    > in his classroom, but not now. It looks like Homeland security has taken
    > things way too far as all the so called rule makers are going crazy. It
    > seems like stupid ideas gets out of hand and snowballs.
    > Lets see, if you take a picture of a scenic Downtown area, you are
    > questioned as if you were a terrorist, if you take any pictures around or
    > inside a school, your a pervert. If this keeps going someday you will need
    > papers to walk down the street, Freedom gone.
    >

    I can understand all of that. There are a great many pervs about.

    > People go crazy on rumors, and they go overboard on them. Cell Phones will
    > cause a GAS Station to blow up, Black mold is going to kill you, Lead paint
    > inside of some 50 plus year old houses is going to kill you. Asbestos in 40
    > plus old Schools is going to kill all the kids.
    > All a bunch of Bull Shit.
    >


    Your phone COULD ignite the fumes at the petrol station, no doubt on
    that one.
    I don't know a lot about mold, but it doesn't sound ideal.
    Lead paint is very dangerous and COULD certainly harm, if not kill, you.
    There is no question that asbestos can cause serious lung problems.
    No bull shit. Research your facts before moaning.

    Fi.
    F I Nishing, Oct 1, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Jerry

    GT40 Guest

    On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 20:39:33 +0100, F I Nishing <>
    wrote:

    >Your phone COULD ignite the fumes at the petrol station, no doubt on
    >that one.


    They can't and its been proven. Its just an urban myth.
    GT40, Oct 1, 2004
    #3
  4. Jerry

    Dave Guest

    Maybe there is something to this...

    I live in the UK, a guest American here, you might say. In the musical
    recitals here, it is custom to NOT make videotapes or use still cameras
    during the performances. If you want a tape, you hope the teacher is going
    to make one by having someone come in, and you can buy a copy. Reason -
    because they have over the years found it (all the cameras) distracting to
    the people watching the performance, maybe to the performers, too.

    "Jerry" <> wrote in message
    news:Aug7d.157412$D%.128010@attbi_s51...
    > Today we were going to take pictures of our grandchild at a school award
    > program , and we were informed that some new rules are in effect and NO
    > pictures could be taken at any school functions anymore, unless we had
    > permission from all the other parents. Some pictures was going to be taken
    > in his classroom, but not now. It looks like Homeland security has taken
    > things way too far as all the so called rule makers are going crazy. It
    > seems like stupid ideas gets out of hand and snowballs.
    > Lets see, if you take a picture of a scenic Downtown area, you are
    > questioned as if you were a terrorist, if you take any pictures around or
    > inside a school, your a pervert. If this keeps going someday you will need
    > papers to walk down the street, Freedom gone.
    >
    > People go crazy on rumors, and they go overboard on them. Cell Phones will
    > cause a GAS Station to blow up, Black mold is going to kill you, Lead
    > paint
    > inside of some 50 plus year old houses is going to kill you. Asbestos in
    > 40
    > plus old Schools is going to kill all the kids.
    > All a bunch of Bull Shit.
    >
    >
    Dave, Oct 1, 2004
    #4
  5. Jerry

    Jerry Guest

    "F I Nishing" <> wrote in message
    news:415db260$0$17396$...
    > Jerry wrote:
    > > Today we were going to take pictures of our grandchild at a school

    award
    > > program , and we were informed that some new rules are in effect and NO
    > > pictures could be taken at any school functions anymore, unless we had
    > > permission from all the other parents. Some pictures was going to be

    taken
    > > in his classroom, but not now. It looks like Homeland security has

    taken
    > > things way too far as all the so called rule makers are going crazy. It
    > > seems like stupid ideas gets out of hand and snowballs.
    > > Lets see, if you take a picture of a scenic Downtown area, you are
    > > questioned as if you were a terrorist, if you take any pictures around

    or
    > > inside a school, your a pervert. If this keeps going someday you will

    need
    > > papers to walk down the street, Freedom gone.
    > >

    > I can understand all of that. There are a great many pervs about.


    Your nuts and must be one. If that was the case the pictures could be taken
    outside of the school anywhere else.
    Even down the block.What about football games, socrer games.
    >
    > > People go crazy on rumors, and they go overboard on them. Cell Phones

    will
    > > cause a GAS Station to blow up, Black mold is going to kill you, Lead

    paint
    > > inside of some 50 plus year old houses is going to kill you. Asbestos in

    40
    > > plus old Schools is going to kill all the kids.
    > > All a bunch of Bull Shit.
    > >

    >
    > Your phone COULD ignite the fumes at the petrol station, no doubt on
    > that one.


    You are nuts again , you must be one of the rumor creaters also. It has been
    shown that Police cars, Fire trucks, any Public service vecicale, CBers or
    Hams using over 100 watts on any band has never caused a gas fire. Thats
    over 300 times stronger than any cell phone. Just another myth.



    > I don't know a lot about mold, but it doesn't sound ideal.


    Its all around you. Go live in a plastic bubble.

    > Lead paint is very dangerous and COULD certainly harm, if not kill, you.

    I do not drink paint it has never been shown that even touching it has never
    caused any illness, just created for Lawyers to make money.
    I have worked with LEAD for thirty years touching it everyday NO PROBLEMS..

    > There is no question that asbestos can cause serious lung problems.


    So does cigarrets and other causes.
    It has been showh that the money spent on removing the asbestos from
    buildings has caused a even bigger problem.
    It should have been just left alone. It was sealed up and was not going
    anywhere.

    So do your own research, dont just listen, and beleave everything on TV.
    Simple people do.
    People like you keep this kind of crap going on with their heads in the
    sand.
    I bet you also only Eat in restruants that have a no smoking area.

    > No bull shit. Research your facts before moaning.
    >
    > Fi.


    > I knew that there would be some dumb ass come back with the same dumb

    Ideas.
    Jerry, Oct 2, 2004
    #5
  6. Jerry

    Hunt Guest

    In article <Aug7d.157412$D%.128010@attbi_s51>, says...
    >
    > Today we were going to take pictures of our grandchild at a school award
    >program , and we were informed that some new rules are in effect and NO
    >pictures could be taken at any school functions anymore, unless we had
    >permission from all the other parents. Some pictures was going to be taken
    >in his classroom, but not now. It looks like Homeland security has taken
    >things way too far as all the so called rule makers are going crazy. It
    >seems like stupid ideas gets out of hand and snowballs.
    >Lets see, if you take a picture of a scenic Downtown area, you are
    >questioned as if you were a terrorist, if you take any pictures around or
    >inside a school, your a pervert. If this keeps going someday you will need
    >papers to walk down the street, Freedom gone.

    [SNIP]

    I believe that the ban on photography at the school is NOT a Homeland Security
    issue, but a privacy issue, and probably dictated to the school board by the
    parents. When I shoot architectural photographs of schools with children
    present, I have to blurr all traces of faces, as we do not have model releases
    from the students. In the stated case, it is more likely, that the parents do
    not want images of their children being used any place without their expressed
    consent, so a all-encompassing ban has been initiated. With the exception of
    "security" for the children, it's a privacy issue. Here, you can blame the
    parents, trial attorneys, but not Homeland Security.

    Hunt
    Hunt, Oct 2, 2004
    #6
  7. >>>>> Today we were going to take pictures of our grandchild at a school
    >>>>> award program , and we were informed that some new rules are in effect
    >>>>> and NO pictures could be taken at any school functions anymore, unless
    >>>>> we had permission from all the other parents.


    It is a growing trend, and it is grows from two prime concerns:

    * Some children have had legal or custodial parents/guardians specify that
    all images and data be restricted from public access--all parents (in the
    U.S. to start) have this option, and they specify their prefences on a
    data-release waiver form--the most pertinent rationale being that some
    children are being sheltered from non-custodial parents who might learn
    where to find them; although this is an extceedingly spurious possibility,
    parents have the right to demand that their children be protected from this
    very rare possibility;

    * Some cultures and/or religions do not condone the appearance of their
    children (or adults, for that matter) in any kind of celebratory or
    performance-related way.

    There are other concerns about school district liability in the case of
    images that become public without parental authorization (and other
    fine-points of liability concern that may be an over-reaction), but the
    whole matter is such a sticky wicket (and school districts are so eager to
    avoid any lawsuits or other legal ramifications) that it is simpler, simply,
    to forbid it.
    Douglas W. Hoyt, Oct 2, 2004
    #7
  8. Jerry

    TRR Guest

    Don't forget. Leisure suits cause cancer. Ya just can't be too careful
    these days !!!


    F I Nishing wrote:
    >
    > Your phone COULD ignite the fumes at the petrol station, no doubt on
    > that one.
    > I don't know a lot about mold, but it doesn't sound ideal.
    > Lead paint is very dangerous and COULD certainly harm, if not kill, you.
    > There is no question that asbestos can cause serious lung problems.
    > No bull shit. Research your facts before moaning.
    >
    > Fi.
    >
    TRR, Oct 2, 2004
    #8
  9. Jerry

    Jerry Guest

    "Douglas W. Hoyt" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > >>>>> Today we were going to take pictures of our grandchild at a school
    > >>>>> award program , and we were informed that some new rules are in

    effect
    > >>>>> and NO pictures could be taken at any school functions anymore,

    unless
    > >>>>> we had permission from all the other parents.

    >
    > It is a growing trend, and it is grows from two prime concerns:
    >
    > * Some children have had legal or custodial parents/guardians specify

    that
    > all images and data be restricted from public access--all parents (in the
    > U.S. to start) have this option, and they specify their prefences on a
    > data-release waiver form--the most pertinent rationale being that some
    > children are being sheltered from non-custodial parents who might learn
    > where to find them; although this is an extceedingly spurious

    possibility,
    > parents have the right to demand that their children be protected from

    this
    > very rare possibility;
    >
    > * Some cultures and/or religions do not condone the appearance of their
    > children (or adults, for that matter) in any kind of celebratory or
    > performance-related way.
    >
    > There are other concerns about school district liability in the case of
    > images that become public without parental authorization (and other
    > fine-points of liability concern that may be an over-reaction), but the
    > whole matter is such a sticky wicket (and school districts are so eager to
    > avoid any lawsuits or other legal ramifications) that it is simpler,

    simply,
    > to forbid it.
    >
    >
    Jerry, Oct 2, 2004
    #9
  10. Jerry

    Guest

    On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 20:39:33 +0100, F I Nishing <>
    wrote:

    >Jerry wrote:
    >> Today we were going to take pictures of our grandchild at a school award
    >> program , and we were informed that some new rules are in effect and NO
    >> pictures could be taken at any school functions anymore, unless we had
    >> permission from all the other parents. Some pictures was going to be taken
    >> in his classroom, but not now. It looks like Homeland security has taken
    >> things way too far as all the so called rule makers are going crazy. It
    >> seems like stupid ideas gets out of hand and snowballs.
    >> Lets see, if you take a picture of a scenic Downtown area, you are
    >> questioned as if you were a terrorist, if you take any pictures around or
    >> inside a school, your a pervert. If this keeps going someday you will need
    >> papers to walk down the street, Freedom gone.
    >>

    >I can understand all of that. There are a great many pervs about.


    So the entire nation is to be considered a bunch of pervs???
    Go out and purchase a sense of perspective.

    >
    >> People go crazy on rumors, and they go overboard on them. Cell Phones will
    >> cause a GAS Station to blow up, Black mold is going to kill you, Lead paint
    >> inside of some 50 plus year old houses is going to kill you. Asbestos in 40
    >> plus old Schools is going to kill all the kids.
    >> All a bunch of Bull Shit.
    >>

    >
    >Your phone COULD ignite the fumes at the petrol station, no doubt on
    >that one.


    Total horseshit -- read up on it before shooting from the lip.

    >I don't know a lot about mold, but it doesn't sound ideal.
    >Lead paint is very dangerous and COULD certainly harm, if not kill, you.


    If you like to eat the walls, sure.

    >There is no question that asbestos can cause serious lung problems.
    >No bull shit. Research your facts before moaning.


    It was hard enough for asbestos workers in daily contact with
    large volumes of the dust to make their claim. Yes, it was dangerous
    for them at those levels and they should be compensated for their
    resulting health problems. If your total exposure consists of walking
    by a little of the stuff, you're not going to keel over from it.
    , Oct 2, 2004
    #10
  11. Jerry

    Guest

    On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 20:12:24 GMT, "Dave" <>
    wrote:

    >Maybe there is something to this...
    >
    >I live in the UK, a guest American here, you might say. In the musical
    >recitals here, it is custom to NOT make videotapes or use still cameras
    >during the performances. If you want a tape, you hope the teacher is going
    >to make one by having someone come in, and you can buy a copy. Reason -
    >because they have over the years found it (all the cameras) distracting to
    >the people watching the performance, maybe to the performers, too.



    Come on -- this is a school recital, not the London Symphony
    at $250 a seat. The attendees are mostly parents and other relatives.
    It's expected that everyone will want their own ideal picture of their
    kids in action. Personally, in such an environment, I'd not like to be
    told I should worry that the other parents around me are pervs. Nopr
    should they think that I am.


    >"Jerry" <> wrote in message
    >news:Aug7d.157412$D%.128010@attbi_s51...
    >> Today we were going to take pictures of our grandchild at a school award
    >> program , and we were informed that some new rules are in effect and NO
    >> pictures could be taken at any school functions anymore, unless we had
    >> permission from all the other parents. Some pictures was going to be taken
    >> in his classroom, but not now. It looks like Homeland security has taken
    >> things way too far as all the so called rule makers are going crazy. It
    >> seems like stupid ideas gets out of hand and snowballs.
    >> Lets see, if you take a picture of a scenic Downtown area, you are
    >> questioned as if you were a terrorist, if you take any pictures around or
    >> inside a school, your a pervert. If this keeps going someday you will need
    >> papers to walk down the street, Freedom gone.
    >>
    >> People go crazy on rumors, and they go overboard on them. Cell Phones will
    >> cause a GAS Station to blow up, Black mold is going to kill you, Lead
    >> paint
    >> inside of some 50 plus year old houses is going to kill you. Asbestos in
    >> 40
    >> plus old Schools is going to kill all the kids.
    >> All a bunch of Bull Shit.
    >>
    >>

    >
    , Oct 2, 2004
    #11
  12. Jerry

    zeitgeist Guest


    > Today we were going to take pictures of our grandchild at a school award
    > program , and we were informed that some new rules are in effect and NO
    > pictures could be taken at any school functions anymore, unless we had
    > permission from all the other parents. Some pictures was going to be taken
    > in his classroom, but not now. It looks like Homeland security has taken
    > things way too far as all the so called rule makers are going crazy. It
    > seems like stupid ideas gets out of hand and snowballs.
    > Lets see, if you take a picture of a scenic Downtown area, you are
    > questioned as if you were a terrorist, if you take any pictures around or
    > inside a school, your a pervert. If this keeps going someday you will need
    > papers to walk down the street, Freedom gone.


    actually a photographer could use this to their advantage. Find parents to
    announce to the other parents that you will shooting and making the images
    available.

    >
    > People go crazy on rumors, and they go overboard on them. Cell Phones will
    > cause a GAS Station to blow up, Black mold is going to kill you, Lead

    paint
    > inside of some 50 plus year old houses is going to kill you. Asbestos in

    40
    > plus old Schools is going to kill all the kids.
    > All a bunch of Bull Shit.
    >


    Lead paint is a serious problem, it was basically a bucket of powered lead
    suspended in the oil, it dried and left a coating of metal behind, you rub
    your hands on the window sill, kids do so more so, put their mouth on the
    edge, get a small but significant dose. But the cell phone thing didn't
    work, but they haven't banned them either.
    zeitgeist, Oct 2, 2004
    #12
  13. Jerry

    Charlie Self Guest

    Zeitgeist responds:

    >Lead paint is a serious problem, it was basically a bucket of powered lead
    >suspended in the oil, it dried and left a coating of metal behind, you rub
    >your hands on the window sill, kids do so more so, put their mouth on the
    >edge, get a small but significant dose.


    Lead paint WAS a modest problem. There are trace amounts of lead left in the
    paint when it dries, and kids CHEW on the damned windowsills to get a dose that
    affects them, and is nearly harmless to adults. Adults usually picked i tup in
    the workplace, maybe making the paint, or welding, or in similar ways.

    Lead paint was banned in '78, but still remains on many old structures. Some
    paint removal methods can create a health hazard and pass the hazard on to
    other areas (windblown paint dust).

    Be glad you're not an ancient Roman: their aqueducts fed into lead piping. In
    fact, much plumbingware was lead or lead line until fairly recently in history.


    Charlie Self
    "Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles."
    Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
    Charlie Self, Oct 2, 2004
    #13
  14. Jerry

    YoYo Guest

    Stick to Macro Photography because the
    insects and flowers wont call the
    police.


    "Jerry" <> wrote in
    message
    news:Aug7d.157412$D%.128010@attbi_s51...
    > Today we were going to take pictures

    of our grandchild at a school award
    > program , and we were informed that

    some new rules are in effect and NO
    > pictures could be taken at any school

    functions anymore, unless we had
    > permission from all the other parents.

    Some pictures was going to be taken
    > in his classroom, but not now. It

    looks like Homeland security has taken
    > things way too far as all the so

    called rule makers are going crazy. It
    > seems like stupid ideas gets out of

    hand and snowballs.
    > Lets see, if you take a picture of a

    scenic Downtown area, you are
    > questioned as if you were a terrorist,

    if you take any pictures around or
    > inside a school, your a pervert. If

    this keeps going someday you will need
    > papers to walk down the street,

    Freedom gone.
    >
    > People go crazy on rumors, and they go

    overboard on them. Cell Phones will
    > cause a GAS Station to blow up, Black

    mold is going to kill you, Lead paint
    > inside of some 50 plus year old houses

    is going to kill you. Asbestos in 40
    > plus old Schools is going to kill all

    the kids.
    > All a bunch of Bull Shit.
    >
    >
    YoYo, Oct 2, 2004
    #14
  15. Jerry

    Charlie Self Guest

    YoYo writes:

    >Stick to Macro Photography because the
    >insects and flowers wont call the
    >police.


    No, but the neighbors might if they see you in the yard hunched over the
    begonias, with tripod, camera, remote release and all kinds of reflector cards.

    Charlie Self
    "Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles."
    Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
    Charlie Self, Oct 2, 2004
    #15
  16. "zeitgeist" <> writes:

    > > Today we were going to take pictures of our grandchild at a school award
    > > program , and we were informed that some new rules are in effect and NO
    > > pictures could be taken at any school functions anymore, unless we had
    > > permission from all the other parents. Some pictures was going to be taken
    > > in his classroom, but not now. It looks like Homeland security has taken
    > > things way too far as all the so called rule makers are going crazy. It
    > > seems like stupid ideas gets out of hand and snowballs.
    > > Lets see, if you take a picture of a scenic Downtown area, you are
    > > questioned as if you were a terrorist, if you take any pictures around or
    > > inside a school, your a pervert. If this keeps going someday you will need
    > > papers to walk down the street, Freedom gone.

    >
    > actually a photographer could use this to their advantage. Find parents to
    > announce to the other parents that you will shooting and making the images
    > available.


    One thought is that the school is hopping to provide a new income stream by
    banning parents from photographing the recital, and then selling prints at
    inflated prices.

    --
    Michael Meissner
    email:
    http://www.the-meissners.org
    Michael Meissner, Oct 2, 2004
    #16
  17. Jerry

    Jer Guest

    Charlie Self wrote:

    > YoYo writes:
    >
    >
    >>Stick to Macro Photography because the
    >>insects and flowers wont call the
    >>police.

    >
    >
    > No, but the neighbors might if they see you in the yard hunched over the
    > begonias, with tripod, camera, remote release and all kinds of reflector cards.



    Fine, let 'em, I'll take their picture when they show up. :)

    --
    jer email reply - I am not a 'ten'
    Jer, Oct 2, 2004
    #17
  18. Jerry

    Ken Weitzel Guest

    Charlie Self wrote:
    > Zeitgeist responds:
    >
    >
    >>Lead paint is a serious problem, it was basically a bucket of powered lead
    >>suspended in the oil, it dried and left a coating of metal behind, you rub
    >>your hands on the window sill, kids do so more so, put their mouth on the
    >>edge, get a small but significant dose.

    >
    >
    > Lead paint WAS a modest problem. There are trace amounts of lead left in the
    > paint when it dries, and kids CHEW on the damned windowsills to get a dose that
    > affects them, and is nearly harmless to adults. Adults usually picked i tup in
    > the workplace, maybe making the paint, or welding, or in similar ways.
    >
    > Lead paint was banned in '78, but still remains on many old structures. Some
    > paint removal methods can create a health hazard and pass the hazard on to
    > other areas (windblown paint dust).
    >
    > Be glad you're not an ancient Roman: their aqueducts fed into lead piping. In
    > fact, much plumbingware was lead or lead line until fairly recently in history.
    >


    Hi...

    Todays copper pipes are soldered (lead/tin)

    Ken
    Ken Weitzel, Oct 2, 2004
    #18
  19. Jerry

    Ken Weitzel Guest

    Michael Meissner wrote:
    > "zeitgeist" <> writes:
    >
    >
    >>> Today we were going to take pictures of our grandchild at a school award
    >>>program , and we were informed that some new rules are in effect and NO
    >>>pictures could be taken at any school functions anymore, unless we had
    >>>permission from all the other parents. Some pictures was going to be taken
    >>>in his classroom, but not now. It looks like Homeland security has taken
    >>>things way too far as all the so called rule makers are going crazy. It
    >>>seems like stupid ideas gets out of hand and snowballs.
    >>>Lets see, if you take a picture of a scenic Downtown area, you are
    >>>questioned as if you were a terrorist, if you take any pictures around or
    >>>inside a school, your a pervert. If this keeps going someday you will need
    >>>papers to walk down the street, Freedom gone.

    >>
    >>actually a photographer could use this to their advantage. Find parents to
    >>announce to the other parents that you will shooting and making the images
    >>available.

    >
    >
    > One thought is that the school is hopping to provide a new income stream by
    > banning parents from photographing the recital, and then selling prints at
    > inflated prices.
    >


    Hi...

    Perhaps. But the school pictures that virtually all of
    us got - order as many pics of "your" kid as you wanted -
    always included a cardboard framed group shot of the
    class and teacher...

    The class shot (at least here) isn't available
    anymore.

    Ken
    Ken Weitzel, Oct 2, 2004
    #19
  20. Jerry

    Charlie Self Guest

    Ken Weitzel responds:

    >> Lead paint was banned in '78, but still remains on many old structures.

    >Some
    >> paint removal methods can create a health hazard and pass the hazard on to
    >> other areas (windblown paint dust).
    >>
    >> Be glad you're not an ancient Roman: their aqueducts fed into lead piping.

    >In
    >> fact, much plumbingware was lead or lead line until fairly recently in

    >history.
    >>

    >
    >Hi...
    >
    >Todays copper pipes are soldered (lead/tin)


    As a matter of fact, no. A few years ago, solder used for plumbing (acid core)
    was changed to a non-lead formula. It is a bitch to use, too, compared to lead
    solder.

    Charlie Self
    "Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles."
    Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
    Charlie Self, Oct 2, 2004
    #20
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