Where do you want to go tomorrow?

Discussion in 'Wireless Networking' started by Pavel A., May 6, 2010.

  1. Hector Santos wrote:
    > John John - MVP wrote:
    >
    >> hector wrote:
    >>
    >>> Of course there is a MAIN source. It has to start from somewhere.
    >>> Most PEERS are going to start with the MAIN source, others will use a
    >>> mirror. The topology is more like a star network where you main have
    >>> many hubs. But there is a main HUB source which is not going to be
    >>> gating to other servers.

    >>
    >> That is certainly not my (and many others, I'm sure) understanding of
    >> the Usenet network. It may have been a star network in the very early
    >> days but it is now, and has for quite a while been described as a mesh
    >> network.

    >
    >
    > Ok, first, the microsoft.public.* newsgroups are not usenet.


    Gee, I wonder why Microsoft themselves refer to them as Usenet groups...

    http://www.microsoft.com/communities/guide/newsgroupfaq.mspx

    > {snip]
    >
    > Well, #1 once the MS servers goes down, Google will not be able to pull
    > from TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl! It will have find some thing else.
    >
    > #2, you won't have MS server to post, and if you found another, you
    > don't know if Google will be pulling from it or that your Serer will be
    > posting to GOOGLE.


    People post to the groups from all kinds of different servers, when the
    Microsoft servers are down these other servers still synchronize between
    themselves without any problem and these folks who post on other servers
    can still post and read without the intermediary of Microsoft servers.
    We have often seen this in the past when outages of a few hours or more
    at the Microsoft servers have happened and some of us use other servers
    to keep on posting, when the Microsoft servers come back only line they
    then "catch-up" and then all the posts show up many hours latter on
    these servers. This is obvious enough when you use non Microsoft
    servers to read the posts in Microsoft groups, all kinds of posts which
    have not made it to the MS servers, or posts which have been removed
    from the MS servers are on the other servers for all to see and read.

    John
     
    John John - MVP, May 7, 2010
    #21
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  2. Pavel A.

    LD5SZRA Guest

    Most probably you won't be able to move to anywhere else; not even
    on forums because Microsoft hasn't got any plans to open forums
    for Windows XP and earlier technology. Somebody suggested that
    you can go to other P2P newsgroups like Google or aioe.org. This
    again won't be possible because microsoft may force them to close
    their newsgroups bearing Micro$hit name.

    The only alternative I can think of is for somebody to organize a
    group of about 10 individuals to come together and start their own
    newsgroups to be financed by advertising and volunteers. I am
    willing to put my name forward for this project provided there are
    individuals who have some basic knowledge of hosting NNTPs which
    can be expanded further as time goes by. I am good at programming
    and developing websites using Java, Javascript and ASP and perhaps
    some networking skills and SQL servers. that is all I know at
    present.

    hth


    "Pavel A." wrote:
    >
    > Dear users of msnews.microsoft.com,
    >
    > There are rumors that Microsoft plans to shut down this nntp server.
    >
    > See this for example:
    > http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-20004109-56.html
    >
    > Any thoughts on where we can migrate from here - besides of the web-based
    > MSDN forums?.
    > To Google groups, maybe?
    >
    > Regards,
    > -- pa
    >


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    LD5SZRA, May 7, 2010
    #22
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  3. > Gee, I wonder why Microsoft themselves refer to them as Usenet groups...


    This is, as Hector correctly told us, "Microsoft's Usenet" :)

    Usenet technically, but is not set up to be the part of the public Usenet.

    Well, there are comp.xxx public Usenet newsgroups, which duplicate most microsoft.xxx ones.

    Probably those of us who hate the web interfaces should move there.

    Anyway for my area of interest - Windows kernel - we have excellent OSROnline forums, where the traffic is around 4 times more then on microsoft.xxx

    --
    Maxim S. Shatskih
    Windows DDK MVP

    http://www.storagecraft.com
     
    Maxim S. Shatskih, May 7, 2010
    #23
  4. John John - MVP wrote:

    >
    >
    > Hector Santos wrote:
    >> Ok, first, the microsoft.public.* newsgroups are not usenet.

    >
    > Gee, I wonder why Microsoft themselves refer to them as Usenet groups...
    >
    > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/guide/newsgroupfaq.mspx



    Unfortunately, another case of Microsoft creating user confusion in
    this regard.

    Microsoft.public.* are *not* part of the usenet backbone newsgroup
    listing nor backbone stream.

    Check it out yourself. If you have access to a major ISP where you
    have a high trunk line backwidth such as a T1 or T3, you will see that
    the usenet feed newsgroup listing does not include microsoft.public.*

    If a smaller ISP is showing microsoft.public.*, then they are directly
    or indirectly going to Microsoft servers and are MERGING it with the
    usenet listing. But they are two different sources of feeds.

    >> #2, you won't have MS server to post, and if you found another, you
    >> don't know if Google will be pulling from it or that your Serer will
    >> be posting to GOOGLE.

    >
    > People post to the groups from all kinds of different servers, when the
    > Microsoft servers are down these other servers still synchronize between
    > themselves without any problem and these folks who post on other servers
    > can still post and read without the intermediary of Microsoft servers.
    > We have often seen this in the past when outages of a few hours or more
    > at the Microsoft servers have happened and some of us use other servers
    > to keep on posting, when the Microsoft servers come back only line they
    > then "catch-up" and then all the posts show up many hours latter on
    > these servers. This is obvious enough when you use non Microsoft
    > servers to read the posts in Microsoft groups, all kinds of posts which
    > have not made it to the MS servers, or posts which have been removed
    > from the MS servers are on the other servers for all to see and read.


    All that will change one MS pulls the plug from the wall.

    While you might find another site that keeps the newsgroups and they
    still remain relatively active, that is only because the site itself
    have become the MAIN source for others to feed into - a large part of
    the chain. But those chains that feed off Microsoft only are lost
    unless they feed into someone else.

    --
    HLS
     
    Hector Santos, May 7, 2010
    #24
  5. LD5SZRA wrote:

    > Most probably you won't be able to move to anywhere else; not even
    > on forums because Microsoft hasn't got any plans to open forums
    > for Windows XP and earlier technology. Somebody suggested that
    > you can go to other P2P newsgroups like Google or aioe.org. This
    > again won't be possible because microsoft may force them to close
    > their newsgroups bearing Micro$hit name.
    >
    > The only alternative I can think of is for somebody to organize a
    > group of about 10 individuals to come together and start their own
    > newsgroups to be financed by advertising and volunteers. I am
    > willing to put my name forward for this project provided there are
    > individuals who have some basic knowledge of hosting NNTPs which
    > can be expanded further as time goes by. I am good at programming
    > and developing websites using Java, Javascript and ASP and perhaps
    > some networking skills and SQL servers. that is all I know at
    > present.




    Yes, I agree.

    This would be a good idea but it starts with a new "main source" or
    feed coordination. There will be a lot of nodes lost once the MS NNTP
    servers are shut off and they need to be told who they can link up to.

    How successful that all be, might be another thing.

    You need a "ground zero" whether its one site or a group of sites as a
    whole - they all need to know they can feed off each other. Once that
    is established, then the rest of the world can feed of them.

    That or someone at Microsoft "donates" the name sake
    "microsoft.public.*" to the backbone usenet feed to it becomes part of
    it the usenet listing.

    The point?

    When a NNTP client issues the command at any of the "New Feeds":

    NEWSGROUP

    the NNTP SERVER will show:

    microsoft.public.*

    as part of the result.

    --
    HLS
     
    Hector Santos, May 7, 2010
    #25
  6. Pavel A.

    Lem Guest

    Hector Santos wrote:
    <snip>
    >
    > Check it out yourself. If you have access to a major ISP where you have
    > a high trunk line backwidth such as a T1 or T3, you will see that the
    > usenet feed newsgroup listing does not include microsoft.public.*
    >
    > If a smaller ISP is showing microsoft.public.*, then they are directly
    > or indirectly going to Microsoft servers and are MERGING it with the
    > usenet listing. But they are two different sources of feeds.
    >

    <snip>

    I have no expertise at all in newsgroup management, but just to inject a
    fact into all of this speculation, Earthlink (which I would characterize
    as a "major ISP") includes the microsoft.public.* groups on its news
    servers. Whether it will continue to do so after Microsoft discontinues
    its support for the newsgroups is, of course, is another story.
    --
    Lem

    Apollo 11 - 40 years ago:
    http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/apollo/40th/index.html
     
    Lem, May 8, 2010
    #26
  7. Lem wrote:

    > Hector Santos wrote:
    > <snip>
    >>
    >> Check it out yourself. If you have access to a major ISP where you
    >> have a high trunk line backwidth such as a T1 or T3, you will see that
    >> the usenet feed newsgroup listing does not include microsoft.public.*
    >>
    >> If a smaller ISP is showing microsoft.public.*, then they are directly
    >> or indirectly going to Microsoft servers and are MERGING it with the
    >> usenet listing. But they are two different sources of feeds.
    >>

    > <snip>
    >
    > I have no expertise at all in newsgroup management, but just to inject a
    > fact into all of this speculation, Earthlink (which I would characterize
    > as a "major ISP") includes the microsoft.public.* groups on its news
    > servers. Whether it will continue to do so after Microsoft discontinues
    > its support for the newsgroups is, of course, is another story.



    If you see microsoft.* feeds in your Earthlink ISP NNTP news service,
    then you they are directly or indirectly getting it from somewhere
    that provides microsoft.public.* but theses groups are not part of the
    usenet backbone.

    There are merged from your view point, as a user of earthlink.

    For example:

    If you go to a news server XYZ.COM, and telnet it it on port 119.

    Telnet xyz.com 119

    You might see this:

    200 Server Site Name version, posting allowed

    Type HELP

    and among the listing, you see the LIST command

    100 Legal commands are :
    article [MessageID|Number]
    authinfo [user|pass|generic|transact] <data>
    body [MessageID|Number]
    check <message-id>
    date
    group newsgroup
    head [MessageID|Number]
    help
    ihave <message-id>
    last
    list
    [active|newsgroups[wildmat]|srchfields|searchable|prettynames[wildmat]]
    listgroup [newsgroup]
    mode stream|reader
    newgroups yymmdd hhmmss ["GMT"] [<distributions>]
    newnews wildmat yymmdd hhmmss ["GMT"] [<distributions>]
    next
    post
    quit
    search
    stat [MessageID|number]
    xhdr header [range|MessageID]
    xover [range]
    xpat header range|MessageID pat [morepat ...]
    xreplic newsgroup/message-number[,newsgroup/message-number...]
    takethis <message-id>
    ..

    If you type LIST NEWSGROUPS

    you will get the listing of the news groups that is available on that
    server.

    Among the list, you will see a MERGE of usenet plus private newsgroups

    alt.* << - USENET, thousands of these
    comp.* << - USENET, thousands of these
    Earthlink.* << - a few of these for EarthLink techncal support
    microsoft.* << - plus the private Microsoft groups.

    The listing might stay after MS pulls the plug, but you won't see any
    new mail unless EarthLink goes to another source (assuming they go
    directly to microsoft for the news). But that new source might be
    dependent on getting mail from msnews.microsoft.com. So its like an
    old telephone listing - call it and no one is there.

    So the listing might remain, but it will remain quite.

    EARTHLINK connects to where they get the usenet BACKBONE feeds. They
    are a big "major" ISP, but there are bigger ones - they pay backbone
    companies, the Telcos. They are not AT&T, Verizon (formerly, MCI/
    UUNET), the guys who own the "wires" - the infrastructure.

    --
    HLS
     
    Hector Santos, May 8, 2010
    #27
  8. Hector Santos wrote:
    > John John - MVP wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>
    >> Hector Santos wrote:
    >>> Ok, first, the microsoft.public.* newsgroups are not usenet.

    >>
    >> Gee, I wonder why Microsoft themselves refer to them as Usenet groups...
    >>
    >> http://www.microsoft.com/communities/guide/newsgroupfaq.mspx

    >
    >
    > Unfortunately, another case of Microsoft creating user confusion in this
    > regard.
    >
    > Microsoft.public.* are *not* part of the usenet backbone newsgroup
    > listing nor backbone stream.
    >
    > Check it out yourself. If you have access to a major ISP where you have
    > a high trunk line backwidth such as a T1 or T3, you will see that the
    > usenet feed newsgroup listing does not include microsoft.public.*
    >
    > If a smaller ISP is showing microsoft.public.*, then they are directly
    > or indirectly going to Microsoft servers and are MERGING it with the
    > usenet listing. But they are two different sources of feeds.
    >
    >>> #2, you won't have MS server to post, and if you found another, you
    >>> don't know if Google will be pulling from it or that your Serer will
    >>> be posting to GOOGLE.

    >>
    >> People post to the groups from all kinds of different servers, when
    >> the Microsoft servers are down these other servers still synchronize
    >> between themselves without any problem and these folks who post on
    >> other servers can still post and read without the intermediary of
    >> Microsoft servers. We have often seen this in the past when outages of
    >> a few hours or more at the Microsoft servers have happened and some of
    >> us use other servers to keep on posting, when the Microsoft servers
    >> come back only line they then "catch-up" and then all the posts show
    >> up many hours latter on these servers. This is obvious enough when
    >> you use non Microsoft servers to read the posts in Microsoft groups,
    >> all kinds of posts which have not made it to the MS servers, or posts
    >> which have been removed from the MS servers are on the other servers
    >> for all to see and read.

    >
    > All that will change one MS pulls the plug from the wall.
    >
    > While you might find another site that keeps the newsgroups and they
    > still remain relatively active, that is only because the site itself
    > have become the MAIN source for others to feed into - a large part of
    > the chain. But those chains that feed off Microsoft only are lost
    > unless they feed into someone else.


    The groups are on *many* usenet servers, majors like Giganews as well as
    small guys like aioe carry them. If these guys refuse to honor the
    remove group notices the groups will continue to exist on these servers
    and peerage will continue between any and all who decide to keep on
    carrying the groups. There is no denying that a majority of the posts
    originates from the Microsoft servers and that without these servers the
    groups may or will probably wither and die but the death will not be
    because Microsoft servers are not there to act as a peerage "hub".

    John
     
    John John - MVP, May 8, 2010
    #28
  9. John John - MVP wrote:

    > Hector Santos wrote:
    >> John John - MVP wrote:
    >>
    >> All that will change one MS pulls the plug from the wall.
    >>
    >> While you might find another site that keeps the newsgroups and they
    >> still remain relatively active, that is only because the site itself
    >> have become the MAIN source for others to feed into - a large part of
    >> the chain. But those chains that feed off Microsoft only are lost
    >> unless they feed into someone else.

    >
    > The groups are on *many* usenet servers, majors like Giganews as well as
    > small guys like aioe carry them. If these guys refuse to honor the
    > remove group notices the groups will continue to exist on these servers
    > and peerage will continue between any and all who decide to keep on
    > carrying the groups. There is no denying that a majority of the posts
    > originates from the Microsoft servers and that without these servers the
    > groups may or will probably wither and die but the death will not be
    > because Microsoft servers are not there to act as a peerage "hub".


    Right, the death will be relative to the users of where they decide to
    reconnect.

    The fact is that many sites and end users use msnews.microsoft.com as
    their site feed and now they will need to go to other sites. The
    issue is that those other sites might also had been using Microsoft.

    So sure, they will need to change to new site so that a link won't be
    broken. As long as there remain a common list of newsgroups
    available, and it includes microsoft.*, its all good as far as getting
    it going.

    --
    HLS
     
    Hector Santos, May 8, 2010
    #29
  10. Just wish to note the actually Live ID authentication process is
    internally done over SSL.

    Hector Santos wrote:

    > Yes, I did noticed that, and AFAICT, the REST requests are all HTTP.
    >
    > Note: the correct url is:
    > http://services.social.microsoft.com/forumsServicePreview/ForumsService.svc
    >
    > This is a primitive 3rd party program. The author seems to be new at
    > communications requirements. It uses the Live ID Framework Client SDK
    > for this.
    >
    > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb404791.aspx
    >
    > And it comes with a C# example illustrating the authentication.
    >
    > For me, since my live id account is a junk account anyway, I don't worry
    > about it - although they are beginning to force me to use it more now.
    >




    --
    HLS
     
    Hector Santos, May 8, 2010
    #30
  11. There are rumors that Microsoft plans to shut down this nntp server.



    Ahem!&nbsp; "This NNTP server" is a phrase that means different things to different people.&nbsp; This is Usenet, remember.&nbsp; There isn't just one node.&nbsp; There are thousands of them.&nbsp; Microsoft has no plans to shut down my Usenet node, which carries this and several other newsgroups in the microsoft.* hierarchy.&nbsp; It couldn't do so even if it wanted to.&nbsp; It's my node, not Microsoft's.
     
    Jonathan de Boyne Pollard, May 8, 2010
    #31
  12. I share concerns expressed by Hector Santos, [...]



    You shouldn't.&nbsp; Hector Santos is talking rubbish.&nbsp; Again.




    The distributed and free Usenet has its merits, [...]



    ... and is how many people have been accessing these newsgroups for many years, including anyone posting from Google Groups.&nbsp; This is Usenet, and these are Usenet newsgroups.




    If we can continue to use newsreaders rather than web interface (with all due respect to AJAX....) and still conect to the central MS server, then this bridge indeed looks like a good solution for me.



    You're still making the fundamental mistake of thinking that there's a "central server".&nbsp; Ignore the Sanotosisms.&nbsp; Xyr description of what happens is wrong on about six or seven different counts.&nbsp; Listen to Jochen Kalmbach.&nbsp; Xe has far more clue, here.&nbsp; Here's some irony for you:&nbsp; If you did what M. Santos said to do and went to your ISP and looked, you'll probably find that (presuming that it actually runs a Usenet node at all, of course) your ISP does, indeed, carry the entire microsoft.* newsgroup hierarchy, and you could have obtained it from your ISP's Usenet node all along.&nbsp;




    Most commercial Usenet nodes run by ISPs have, historically, carried many of these big non-Big8 newsgroup hierarchies.&nbsp; Usenet isn't just, and never has been, the Big 8.&nbsp; The question is whether ISPs will continue to carry the microsoft.* hierarchy in the future.&nbsp; It's more likely, nowadays, given the trend of recent years, that they'll just discontinue Usenet service outright than fiddle with adjusting a few lines in active files for one hierarchy, to be blunt.
     
    Jonathan de Boyne Pollard, May 8, 2010
    #32
  13. Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:

    >
    >>
    >> There are rumors that Microsoft plans to shut down this nntp server.
    >>

    > Ahem! "This NNTP server" is a phrase that means different things to
    > different people. This is Usenet, remember. There /isn't/ just one
    > node. There are thousands of them. Microsoft has no plans to shut down
    > /my/ Usenet node, which carries this and several other newsgroups in the
    > |microsoft.*| hierarchy. It couldn't do so even if it wanted to. It's
    > my node, not Microsoft's.
    >



    But no one is going to connect to a Troll's node.

    --
    HLS
     
    Hector Santos, May 8, 2010
    #33
  14. Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:

    >> If we can continue to use newsreaders rather than web interface (with
    >> all due respect to AJAX....) and still conect to the central MS
    >> server, then this bridge indeed looks like a good solution for me.
    >>

    > You're still making the fundamental mistake of thinking that there's a
    > "central server". Ignore the Sanotosisms. Xyr description of what
    > happens is wrong on about six or seven different counts. Listen to
    > Jochen Kalmbach. Xe has far more clue, here. Here's some irony for
    > you: If you did what M. Santos said to do and went to your ISP and
    > looked, you'll probably find that (presuming that it actually runs a
    > Usenet node at all, of course) your ISP does, indeed, carry the entire
    > |microsoft.*| newsgroup hierarchy, and you could have obtained it from
    > your ISP's Usenet node all along.



    Ahh, hence the erroneous presumption that every node carries the
    entire usenet feed. WRONG!

    Again the TROLL is missing the point.

    Once the MS NNTP Server goes down, its chain of nodes including
    end-users will no longer get its exchange of microsoft.* only mail.
    They have to go else where and thats a MAJOR lost of information and
    users and active user support people.

    PS: There is one good thing about the MS Forums! No more trolls such
    as the Jonathans - which I am sure you won't mind as you won't be able
    to handle anything you can't cross post all over the place.

    --
    HLS
     
    Hector Santos, May 8, 2010
    #34
  15. Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:

    >
    >>>
    >>> Gee, I wonder why Microsoft themselves refer to them as Usenet groups...
    >>>

    >> This is, as Hector correctly told us, "Microsoft's Usenet" :)
    >>

    > No. It's just Usenet. It's a |microsoft.*| hierarchy of newsgroups,
    > but that doesn't make it owned, or run, by Microsoft. Much of what M.
    > Santos is writing in this thread about star networks, hubs, "backbone
    > listings", and so forth is just complete unadulterated twaddle. The
    > statements about "owners of newsgroups" are more of the same, alas.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet

    Looks like a star topology

    Microsoft "owns" the microsoft.* groups. Whether they wish keep it
    listed on the backbone listing, its up to them and yes, there is a
    "administrator" that issues controls.

    > Of course, the fact that this is Usenet is almost certainly part of the
    > problem for Microsoft. It has no control.



    Not true, they can ask to get it remove. If they don't others have
    the power (IETF, ISC.ORG) to remove it from the listing.

    That doesn't mean other usenet feed sites has to honor a change
    request or new listing. Thats up to them. But if they want to be in
    sync with the rest of the feeds, they will work with the new listing.

    As Russ Allbery clearly stated here in response to Julien's plan to
    have the microsoft.* newsgroups remove from the usenet BACKBONE listing:

    http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.news.server/msg/6cf4bbc6284d92a3

    The whole point of that hierarchy was that it was
    synchronized with Microsoft; without that point, there are lots of
    other hierarchies that can absorb the traffic, and without
    spreading it across way more groups than the residual traffic is
    likely to require.

    Look at the word *synchronized with Microsoft" - study what it means.

    As soon as MS pulls the plug, Julien plans to remove the groups from
    the listings.

    I just wanted to let you know that I will issue rmgroup
    control articles, reflecting the changes that are bound to
    happen on msnews.microsoft.com, when they occur.



    --
    HLS
     
    Hector Santos, May 8, 2010
    #35
  16. Hector Santos wrote:
    > Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>>>
    >>>> Gee, I wonder why Microsoft themselves refer to them as Usenet
    >>>> groups...
    >>>>
    >>> This is, as Hector correctly told us, "Microsoft's Usenet" :)
    >>>

    >> No. It's just Usenet. It's a |microsoft.*| hierarchy of newsgroups,
    >> but that doesn't make it owned, or run, by Microsoft. Much of what M.
    >> Santos is writing in this thread about star networks, hubs, "backbone
    >> listings", and so forth is just complete unadulterated twaddle. The
    >> statements about "owners of newsgroups" are more of the same, alas.

    >
    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet
    >
    > Looks like a star topology


    How can you look at a portion of the network, a partial sketch of 3
    servers amongst thousands, and declare this to be a star network? Maybe
    you should have read instead of just looking at pictures:

    "One notable difference between a BBS or web forum and Usenet is the
    absence of a central server and dedicated administrator. Usenet is
    distributed among a large, constantly changing conglomeration of servers
    that store and forward messages to one another. These servers are
    loosely connected in a variable mesh. This is similar to the complex
    transportation plan of a city. There are multiple ways to get to any
    point in the city. If one of those ways is blocked for some reason,
    there is always another avenue available to get there. In this manner,
    the User Network or Usenet allows newsgroup postings to reach their many
    destinations robustly."

    This is what a star network looks like:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_network

    It is completely unsuitable for Usenet robustness, as mentioned in the
    article:

    "The primary disadvantage of a star topology is the high dependence of
    the system on the functioning of the central hub. While the failure of
    an individual link only results in the isolation of a single node, the
    failure of the central hub renders the network inoperable, immediately
    isolating all nodes. The performance and scalability of the network also
    depend on the capabilities of the hub."

    >
    > Microsoft "owns" the microsoft.* groups. Whether they wish keep it
    > listed on the backbone listing, its up to them and yes, there is a
    > "administrator" that issues controls.
    >
    >> Of course, the fact that this is Usenet is almost certainly part of
    >> the problem for Microsoft. It has no control.

    >
    >
    > Not true, they can ask to get it remove. If they don't others have the
    > power (IETF, ISC.ORG) to remove it from the listing.


    IETF? ISC.ORG? Do you even know what are the missions and mandates of
    these organizations? Here is a hint, it has to do with protocols and
    technical aspects of Usenet/Internet traffic, they don't have any powers
    whatsoever to force anyone to do anything and they certainly wouldn't
    get involved in any squabbles between individuals or entities about
    newsgroups!

    John
     
    John John - MVP, May 8, 2010
    #36
  17. John John - MVP wrote:

    > Hector Santos wrote:


    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet
    >>
    >> Looks like a star topology

    >
    > How can you look at a portion of the network, a partial sketch of 3
    > servers amongst thousands, and declare this to be a star network? Maybe
    > you should have read instead of just looking at pictures:



    As I stated in the beginning of your onslaught:

    A mesh is just a form of a star network.

    And I further added:

    Now, in a mesh, redundancy may be part of the expectation with
    duplicity considered a lower overhead operation then it was in
    older days where hardware did not allow for such low efficiency
    however it still needed to be checked.

    But you probably don't know what that means.

    >>> Of course, the fact that this is Usenet is almost certainly part of
    >>> the problem for Microsoft. It has no control.

    >>
    >> Not true, they can ask to get it remove. If they don't others have
    >> the power (IETF, ISC.ORG) to remove it from the listing.

    >
    > IETF? ISC.ORG? Do you even know what are the missions and mandates of
    > these organizations? Here is a hint, it has to do with protocols and
    > technical aspects of Usenet/Internet traffic, they don't have any powers
    > whatsoever to force anyone to do anything



    HA! well, you don't seem to be have been involved much around the
    IETF then!

    > and they certainly wouldn't get involved in any squabbles between


    > individuals or entities about newsgroups!


    You are right, they will do want they want. They don't need to explain
    anything to you.

    Go get your current usenet listing at:

    ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/CONFIG/newsgroups

    And see if you can POLITELY ask to manage it yourself.

    http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.news.server/msg/6cf4bbc6284d92a3

    But you are certainly welcome to maintain your own list and share it
    among your network of friends who know about you.

    If there is one thing about the old guards, including the old Fidonet,
    they LOVE to maintain LIST. Oh its FREE - now go try to take control
    of it.

    --
    HLS
     
    Hector Santos, May 8, 2010
    #37
  18. John John - MVP wrote:

    > Hector Santos wrote:



    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet
    >>
    >> Looks like a star topology

    >
    > How can you look at a portion of the network, a partial sketch of 3
    > servers amongst thousands, and declare this to be a star network? Maybe
    > you should have read instead of just looking at pictures:
    >
    > "One notable difference between a BBS or web forum and Usenet is the
    > absence of a central server and dedicated administrator. Usenet is
    > distributed among a large, constantly changing conglomeration of servers
    > that store and forward messages to one another. These servers are
    > loosely connected in a variable mesh. This is similar to the complex
    > transportation plan of a city. There are multiple ways to get to any
    > point in the city. If one of those ways is blocked for some reason,
    > there is always another avenue available to get there. In this manner,
    > the User Network or Usenet allows newsgroup postings to reach their many
    > destinations robustly."
    >
    > This is what a star network looks like:
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_network
    >
    > It is completely unsuitable for Usenet robustness, as mentioned in the
    > article:
    >
    > "The primary disadvantage of a star topology is the high dependence of
    > the system on the functioning of the central hub. While the failure of
    > an individual link only results in the isolation of a single node, the
    > failure of the central hub renders the network inoperable, immediately
    > isolating all nodes. The performance and scalability of the network also
    > depend on the capabilities of the hub."




    Whats funny about this is that you really don't know what it means
    because you probably never operated or hosted a server.

    I'll try to explain it to you:

    Its relative - think of yourself as a HOST operator.

    When you first install whatever hosting software you have, it begins
    EMPTY!

    Now YOU, as a HUMAN have to decide where you will get your feeds for
    whatever information you wish to provide for your users and/or LOCALLY
    HOSTED host operator.

    Old school operators will understand terms like users as POINTS

    HOST-JOHN <---> USER-A

    The key point is that the USER is not hosting anyone else. But maybe
    you are going to like to host other sites, free or fee or whatever:

    HOST-JOHN <---> USER-A
    |
    HOST-BIZ-CUSTOMER

    Relative to USER-A and the BIZ customer, YOUR are their HUB and its an
    the form of a STAR.

    In the old days, it was more of a locality, distance issue simply
    because of the networking. But the internet allows you to go to other
    HUBs now who offer the same feeds that you wanted.

    There are MANY reasons, seriously, why users and nodes go to different
    sources or multiple different sources.

    Assuming you have access to anyone you are working with, its possible
    to download form one host and upload to another. Its akin to reading
    on this server and for some reason, you decide to post a reply via
    google or some other site.

    But keep in mind that USER and a HOST are different when it comes to
    redundancy and duplicity.

    If a HOST is going to go different multiple HOST for the same feeds,
    the NNTP protocol has logic to check for dupes.

    The point is today, you don't even think about it anymore. The
    hardware, the bandwidth and software are that good to completely
    automated it. It is still overhead, but its not something that was a
    BIG BIG concern in the past where FEEDS are large and expensive. The
    dupes where still there but if there was a real big issue, someone
    traced it down to the problem node.

    Lets put it this way, if you became an ISP - you will think STAR
    network relative to yourself; you will sell services to NODES off your
    hub - users and other hosting sites. You normally will not have any
    control what this nodes will do themselves, but if one of your nodes
    where getting duplicate feeds from someone else, and you UPLOADED it
    to the hub, do you think they will accept it?

    --
    HLS
     
    Hector Santos, May 8, 2010
    #38
  19. Hector Santos wrote:
    > John John - MVP wrote:
    >
    >> Hector Santos wrote:

    >
    >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet
    >>>
    >>> Looks like a star topology

    >>
    >> How can you look at a portion of the network, a partial sketch of 3
    >> servers amongst thousands, and declare this to be a star network?
    >> Maybe you should have read instead of just looking at pictures:

    >
    >
    > As I stated in the beginning of your onslaught:
    >
    > A mesh is just a form of a star network.


    Sheesh, now you are trying to backpeddle! Read here:
    http://www.myreader.co.uk/msg/12534.aspx

    "Although the UK Network may once have been a star network, this is no
    longer the case. There are many news servers each of which has multiple
    connections to others forming a mesh-like network. There are no central
    sites in a position to control what comes in and out of the network as a
    whole."

    It's the same thing worldwide, trying to imply that the Usenet is a star
    network in an effort to bolster your claim that the MS servers are a
    mandatory and necessary "hub" in the distribution of the microsoft.*
    hierarchy is lame to say the least!

    I'm done with this thread, good bye!

    John
     
    John John - MVP, May 8, 2010
    #39
  20. John John - MVP wrote:

    > Hector Santos wrote:
    >> John John - MVP wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hector Santos wrote:

    >>
    >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet
    >>>>
    >>>> Looks like a star topology
    >>>
    >>> How can you look at a portion of the network, a partial sketch of 3
    >>> servers amongst thousands, and declare this to be a star network?
    >>> Maybe you should have read instead of just looking at pictures:

    >>
    >>
    >> As I stated in the beginning of your onslaught:
    >>
    >> A mesh is just a form of a star network.

    >
    > Sheesh, now you are trying to backpeddle! Read here:
    > http://www.myreader.co.uk/msg/12534.aspx
    >
    > "Although the UK Network may once have been a star network, this is no
    > longer the case. There are many news servers each of which has multiple
    > connections to others forming a mesh-like network. There are no central
    > sites in a position to control what comes in and out of the network as a
    > whole."
    >
    > It's the same thing worldwide, trying to imply that the Usenet is a star
    > network in an effort to bolster your claim that the MS servers are a
    > mandatory and necessary "hub" in the distribution of the microsoft.*
    > hierarchy is lame to say the least!
    >
    > I'm done with this thread, good bye!


    You're right, you should because you twisted words to suit whatever
    purpose you had here.

    To indicate that me referencing a picture of "three" nodes in a usenet
    network is not representative of the "thousands" of nodes in the
    network is ludicrous and a lame attempt of trolling for an nonsense
    argument.

    The above does not change the fact that a node relative to itself
    operates like a star and as I stated in my last post, you have no
    control of what your nodes and points off your server will do. In
    other words, you don't need to go to a main hub to get your feeds.
    That still doesn't eliminate the idea each node itself operates as a star.

    What? You think you can just post in UK node and it will magically
    appear in some far distance USA node without some form of organized
    uplink/downlink transport system? Are you broadcasting by posting the
    article at different servers crossing your fingers that at least ONE
    will make and the others will by rejected as DUPES?

    And again, unless you UNDERSTAND the intricacies of developing hosting
    software especially for all hosting operationally needs when it comes
    to distribution, then yes, you should say good bye and shut up.

    --
    HLS
     
    Hector Santos, May 8, 2010
    #40
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