When do you lose Resolution?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Denny B, Oct 24, 2006.

  1. Denny B

    Denny B Guest

    I have a Nikon D70S. After I do a picture
    taking session, I remove my memory card from
    the camera. Insert it in my built in memory
    card reader in the computer and burn the
    pictures directly onto a CD-R.

    Now as I understand it you can never change
    the resolution of the pictures on the CD-R
    ( and please don't lets get into what will happen
    20 or 50 years hence)
    I read in this newsgroup that every time you open
    a file and close it you lose resolution. I can
    understand if you open and close a file from
    a folder this can happen.

    However you cannot alter a file burned to the CD-R.
    Am I correct in what I state? If not please correct me.

    Thanks in advance
    Denny B.
    Denny B, Oct 24, 2006
    #1
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  2. Denny B

    Annika1980 Guest

    Denny B wrote:
    > I read in this newsgroup that every time you open
    > a file and close it you lose resolution. I can
    > understand if you open and close a file from
    > a folder this can happen.



    You only lose some quality when you re-save a file as a JPG since the
    file is then re-compressed. And of course you couldn't do that to
    files on a CD anyway.
    And it isn't "resolution" that you are losing since resolution refers
    to the pixel size of the photo, which doesn't change. Just opening a
    file and closing it again without saving does nothing to the original
    data in the file.
    Annika1980, Oct 24, 2006
    #2
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  3. Denny B

    AustinMN Guest

    Denny B wrote:
    > I have a Nikon D70S. After I do a picture
    > taking session, I remove my memory card from
    > the camera. Insert it in my built in memory
    > card reader in the computer and burn the
    > pictures directly onto a CD-R.
    >
    > Now as I understand it you can never change
    > the resolution of the pictures on the CD-R
    > ( and please don't lets get into what will happen
    > 20 or 50 years hence)
    > I read in this newsgroup that every time you open
    > a file and close it you lose resolution.


    Not when you close it; it's when you *save* it. Technically, it's not
    resolution that is lost, it's picture information. Oh, and this only
    applies to lossy compression, such as .JPG. It doesn't happen with RAW
    files.

    > However you cannot alter a file burned to the CD-R.
    > Am I correct in what I state? If not please correct me.


    With a CD-RW you can open, save, and close (but I don't reccomend it
    normally).

    Austin
    AustinMN, Oct 24, 2006
    #3
  4. Denny B wrote:
    > I have a Nikon D70S. After I do a picture
    > taking session, I remove my memory card from
    > the camera. Insert it in my built in memory
    > card reader in the computer and burn the
    > pictures directly onto a CD-R.
    >
    > Now as I understand it you can never change
    > the resolution of the pictures on the CD-R
    > ( and please don't lets get into what will happen
    > 20 or 50 years hence)
    > I read in this newsgroup that every time you open
    > a file and close it you lose resolution. I can
    > understand if you open and close a file from
    > a folder this can happen.
    >
    > However you cannot alter a file burned to the CD-R.
    > Am I correct in what I state? If not please correct me.
    >
    > Thanks in advance
    > Denny B.


    A couple of things. First, it is only a JPEG that loses QUALITY with
    successive saves. It does not lose resolution, it essentially loses
    color accuracy and fidelity. The effect is similar to reducing bit
    depth, although the 8 bit depth is not actually reduced. It is only
    the SAVE function that does this. You can open and close the file as
    many times as you like without changing the quality. Save is different
    than Close.

    Second, while you cannot alter the file ON THE CD, you can alter the
    file in an editing program and save it as an altered file on your hard
    drive, or burn it to a new CD.
    Don Stauffer in Minnesota, Oct 24, 2006
    #4
  5. Denny B

    jeremy Guest

    "Don Stauffer in Minnesota" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > Denny B wrote:
    >> I have a Nikon D70S. After I do a picture
    >> taking session, I remove my memory card from
    >> the camera. Insert it in my built in memory
    >> card reader in the computer and burn the
    >> pictures directly onto a CD-R.
    >>
    >> Now as I understand it you can never change
    >> the resolution of the pictures on the CD-R
    >> ( and please don't lets get into what will happen
    >> 20 or 50 years hence)
    >> I read in this newsgroup that every time you open
    >> a file and close it you lose resolution. I can
    >> understand if you open and close a file from
    >> a folder this can happen.
    >>
    >> However you cannot alter a file burned to the CD-R.
    >> Am I correct in what I state? If not please correct me.
    >>
    >> Thanks in advance
    >> Denny B.

    >
    > A couple of things. First, it is only a JPEG that loses QUALITY with
    > successive saves. It does not lose resolution, it essentially loses
    > color accuracy and fidelity. The effect is similar to reducing bit
    > depth, although the 8 bit depth is not actually reduced. It is only
    > the SAVE function that does this. You can open and close the file as
    > many times as you like without changing the quality. Save is different
    > than Close.
    >
    > Second, while you cannot alter the file ON THE CD, you can alter the
    > file in an editing program and save it as an altered file on your hard
    > drive, or burn it to a new CD.
    >


    Just one more note:

    To ensure no loss of image data, files should not be edited as JPGs. Even
    if one's camera or scanner outputs files as JPGs, the first step is to save
    those files as TIFF, Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro or some other non-lossy
    format. Do all editing in the non-lossy format. Convert back to JPG when
    all editing is done, if you want to use JPG as your viewing format--which is
    what it was really intended to be used as.

    Also, editing software typically has a default compression for JPG files,
    and the amount of compression can usually be changed by the user. I always
    make it a point to use minimum compression as my default, just to ensure
    that I don't accidentally lose data when saving a JPG. In PSP XI and
    earlier versions, there is a feature called JPG Optimizer, where one can
    determine in advance exactly how much compression should be applied to any
    given file before it is saved, and it shows what the file will look like at
    that resolution, before it is saved. I normally use that feature when
    making my final saves in JPG formatted files.

    The simplest rule that I use, with regard to JPG files, is to use them only
    as final viewing format, never as a format to be used during editing.
    jeremy, Oct 24, 2006
    #5
  6. Denny B

    Denny B Guest

    jeremy wrote:
    > "Don Stauffer in Minnesota" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Denny B wrote:
    >>> I have a Nikon D70S. After I do a picture
    >>> taking session, I remove my memory card from
    >>> the camera. Insert it in my built in memory
    >>> card reader in the computer and burn the
    >>> pictures directly onto a CD-R.
    >>>
    >>> Now as I understand it you can never change
    >>> the resolution of the pictures on the CD-R
    >>> ( and please don't lets get into what will happen
    >>> 20 or 50 years hence)
    >>> I read in this newsgroup that every time you open
    >>> a file and close it you lose resolution. I can
    >>> understand if you open and close a file from
    >>> a folder this can happen.
    >>>
    >>> However you cannot alter a file burned to the CD-R.
    >>> Am I correct in what I state? If not please correct me.
    >>>
    >>> Thanks in advance
    >>> Denny B.

    >> A couple of things. First, it is only a JPEG that loses QUALITY with
    >> successive saves. It does not lose resolution, it essentially loses
    >> color accuracy and fidelity. The effect is similar to reducing bit
    >> depth, although the 8 bit depth is not actually reduced. It is only
    >> the SAVE function that does this. You can open and close the file as
    >> many times as you like without changing the quality. Save is different
    >> than Close.
    >>
    >> Second, while you cannot alter the file ON THE CD, you can alter the
    >> file in an editing program and save it as an altered file on your hard
    >> drive, or burn it to a new CD.
    >>

    >
    > Just one more note:
    >
    > To ensure no loss of image data, files should not be edited as JPGs. Even
    > if one's camera or scanner outputs files as JPGs, the first step is to save
    > those files as TIFF, Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro or some other non-lossy
    > format. Do all editing in the non-lossy format. Convert back to JPG when
    > all editing is done, if you want to use JPG as your viewing format--which is
    > what it was really intended to be used as.
    >
    > Also, editing software typically has a default compression for JPG files,
    > and the amount of compression can usually be changed by the user. I always
    > make it a point to use minimum compression as my default, just to ensure
    > that I don't accidentally lose data when saving a JPG. In PSP XI and
    > earlier versions, there is a feature called JPG Optimizer, where one can
    > determine in advance exactly how much compression should be applied to any
    > given file before it is saved, and it shows what the file will look like at
    > that resolution, before it is saved. I normally use that feature when
    > making my final saves in JPG formatted files.
    >
    > The simplest rule that I use, with regard to JPG files, is to use them only
    > as final viewing format, never as a format to be used during editing.
    >
    >

    Thank you all regarding your input
    into this matter. I have learned much
    from your replies, particularly that
    opening and closing a file is NOT saving it.

    Thank you kindly.
    Denny B
    Denny B, Oct 25, 2006
    #6
  7. In fact, I strongly advise using the photo editor's native file format
    for all saves while you are editing. No other format will retain ALL
    of the editing info. So if you are editing in Photoshop, save as a .PS
    file, .PSP for Paint Shop Pro, etc. Yeah, the files are large saved in
    those formats, but you won't be editing that many images at one time.
    When you are sure you are done editing, save as a jpeg or some other
    compressed format, and delete the version in the editor's format.


    jeremy wrote:

    >
    > To ensure no loss of image data, files should not be edited as JPGs. Even
    > if one's camera or scanner outputs files as JPGs, the first step is to save
    > those files as TIFF, Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro or some other non-lossy
    > format. Do all editing in the non-lossy format. Convert back to JPG when
    > all editing is done, if you want to use JPG as your viewing format--which is
    > what it was really intended to be used as.
    >
    > Also, editing software typically has a default compression for JPG files,
    > and the amount of compression can usually be changed by the user. I always
    > make it a point to use minimum compression as my default, just to ensure
    > that I don't accidentally lose data when saving a JPG. In PSP XI and
    > earlier versions, there is a feature called JPG Optimizer, where one can
    > determine in advance exactly how much compression should be applied to any
    > given file before it is saved, and it shows what the file will look like at
    > that resolution, before it is saved. I normally use that feature when
    > making my final saves in JPG formatted files.
    >
    > The simplest rule that I use, with regard to JPG files, is to use them only
    > as final viewing format, never as a format to be used during editing.
    Don Stauffer in Minnesota, Oct 25, 2006
    #7
  8. Denny B

    timeOday Guest

    Denny B wrote:
    > I have a Nikon D70S. After I do a picture
    > taking session, I remove my memory card from
    > the camera. Insert it in my built in memory
    > card reader in the computer and burn the
    > pictures directly onto a CD-R.
    >
    > Now as I understand it you can never change
    > the resolution of the pictures on the CD-R
    > ( and please don't lets get into what will happen
    > 20 or 50 years hence)
    > I read in this newsgroup that every time you open
    > a file and close it you lose resolution. I can
    > understand if you open and close a file from
    > a folder this can happen.
    >
    > However you cannot alter a file burned to the CD-R.
    > Am I correct in what I state? If not please correct me.
    >
    > Thanks in advance
    > Denny B.


    As everybody is saying, you can repeatedly view digital files without
    wearing them out.

    Still, I *do* still see value in storing backups on a read-only media,
    just as you suggested. Otherwise, there is still some risk of
    accidental deletion. Or perhaps even accidental modification. For
    instance, I have accidentally destroyed filenames by copying the files
    to old disks that could only handle filenames 8 characters in length.
    Or, Windows Media Player has an option to automatically download track
    info (like artist and title) and store it in your music files. It's
    only trying to be helpful, but that would scare me if an image viewing
    program did something like that to my pictures in order to implement
    some value-added feature. Or maybe a virus will one day infect image
    files and inject spam onto the pictures. Who knows?

    So, periodically making a backup on read-only media is still a good idea.
    timeOday, Oct 25, 2006
    #8
  9. Denny B

    Maurice Hood Guest

    "timeOday" <> wrote in message
    news:

    So if I read it correctly the best thing to do is save as
    jpeg direct from the camera/card but also save as tiff at the same time.
    This should not be a problem with the state and price of hard drives.


    --
    Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
    Maurice Hood, Oct 27, 2006
    #9
  10. Maurice Hood wrote:
    > "timeOday" <> wrote in message
    > news:
    >
    > So if I read it correctly the best thing to do is save as
    > jpeg direct from the camera/card but also save as tiff at the same time.
    > This should not be a problem with the state and price of hard drives.


    The very best is to shoot in RAW format, convert to Photoshop files, and
    make edits, resaving to PS format. The RAW file is the negative, so to
    speak, and contains the most information.

    OTOH, much paranoia is attached to the minute quality that is lost in
    saving changes via JPEG. Tests have been done in the past that showed
    that even after a half dozen or more resaves, the *apparent* quality
    hadn't changed. Of course, mileage varies, and the worse quality you
    start with, the more you have cause to be concerned about multiple edits
    and resave via JPEG.

    --
    John McWilliams
    John McWilliams, Oct 27, 2006
    #10
  11. Denny B

    timeOday Guest

    Maurice Hood wrote:
    > "timeOday" <> wrote in message
    > news:
    >
    > So if I read it correctly the best thing to do is save as
    > jpeg direct from the camera/card but also save as tiff at the same time.
    > This should not be a problem with the state and price of hard drives.
    >
    >


    If they come off the camera as jpeg, there is no value on converting
    them straight to TIFF and storing them that way, that's just a waste of
    space. Just store them exactly as they come off the camera without
    altering them and you will be preserving everything you can.

    It's only after *altering* an image that you gain anything by saving it
    as TIFF rather than JPEG.

    You should definitely do a little experimentation with your own software
    and hardware to determine whether any of this even matters to you.
    We're talking about things that you generally have to look very closely
    to see.
    timeOday, Oct 28, 2006
    #11
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