What's wrong ...?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by BrJohan, Dec 24, 2012.

  1. BrJohan

    BrJohan Guest

    Yesterday I returned home after a trip, carrying with me some 1500 DNG-images on a SDXC-card. After importing to LR4, I saw that ~200 of the imagefiles were corrupt (See attached screenshot). The corrupt images were spread out (seemingly at random) over the days of the journey.

    I have tried reading with different cardreaders and also direct from camerato USB. Same result. Embedded JPEG-previews are OK.

    I have used that particular card-camera combination before without troubles..

    Is the SDXC-card or the camera the primary suspect?
     
    BrJohan, Dec 24, 2012
    #1
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  2. BrJohan

    ray Guest

    On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 06:39:02 -0800, BrJohan wrote:

    > Yesterday I returned home after a trip, carrying with me some 1500
    > DNG-images on a SDXC-card. After importing to LR4, I saw that ~200 of
    > the imagefiles were corrupt (See attached screenshot). The corrupt
    > images were spread out (seemingly at random) over the days of the
    > journey.
    >
    > I have tried reading with different cardreaders and also direct from
    > camera to USB. Same result. Embedded JPEG-previews are OK.
    >
    > I have used that particular card-camera combination before without
    > troubles.
    >
    > Is the SDXC-card or the camera the primary suspect?


    Before I'd consign either to the trash heap, I'd try another computer -
    preferably with a different OS.
     
    ray, Dec 24, 2012
    #2
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  3. BrJohan

    Alex Monro Guest

    BrJohan wrote:

    > Yesterday I returned home after a trip, carrying with me some 1500
    > DNG-images on a SDXC-card. After importing to LR4, I saw that ~200 of

    the
    > imagefiles were corrupt (See attached screenshot). The corrupt images

    were
    > spread out (seemingly at random) over the days of the journey.
    >
    > I have tried reading with different cardreaders and also direct from
    > camera to USB. Same result. Embedded JPEG-previews are OK.
    >
    > I have used that particular card-camera combination before without
    > troubles.
    >
    > Is the SDXC-card or the camera the primary suspect?


    Normally, when you've uploaded your images into your computer with LR,
    how do you clear the card for re-use? Do you delete the files from the
    card using the computer? Reformat the card in the computer? Delete
    all or just some of the files in the camera? Or reformat the card in
    the camera?

    I ask because on several occasions I've seen people report similar
    problems with corrupted memory cards, on this newsgroup and on other
    photography forums, and it seems that the thing most in common is that
    they delete files or reformat the card on the computer. Sometimes a
    problem is reported when individual images are deleted in the camera.

    It appears that people who re-format the card in camera seldom have
    corrupted memory card problems. My theory is that the firmware in some
    cameras has a slightly imperfect implementation of the FAT filing
    system used on memory cards, and the differences between the camera's
    and computer's implementations can lead to corruption in rare
    pathological cases.

    I always re-format cards in the camera, and the only time I've
    experienced corruption is when I used a brand new card without in
    camera formatting. I also have a portable card copier / viewer
    (Vosonic) that I use to make daily backups when I'm on a long trip.

    You could try recovery software as suggested by Savageduck. If the
    Sandisk software doesn't work, you could try a Google search for
    "memory card recovery software" - there are several free programs out
    there, and you may find one that works. One I've used sometimes for
    general file recovery is TestDisk:

    http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk
    --
    Alex Monro
    Exeter, UK
    Running on Linux (Kubuntu 10.04)
     
    Alex Monro, Dec 24, 2012
    #3
  4. BrJohan

    Rob Guest

    On 25/12/2012 2:41 AM, ray wrote:
    > On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 06:39:02 -0800, BrJohan wrote:
    >
    >> Yesterday I returned home after a trip, carrying with me some 1500
    >> DNG-images on a SDXC-card. After importing to LR4, I saw that ~200 of
    >> the imagefiles were corrupt (See attached screenshot). The corrupt
    >> images were spread out (seemingly at random) over the days of the
    >> journey.
    >>
    >> I have tried reading with different cardreaders and also direct from
    >> camera to USB. Same result. Embedded JPEG-previews are OK.
    >>
    >> I have used that particular card-camera combination before without
    >> troubles.
    >>
    >> Is the SDXC-card or the camera the primary suspect?

    >
    > Before I'd consign either to the trash heap, I'd try another computer -
    > preferably with a different OS.
    >


    Ill second that - I have had this type of problem which was PC related
    not the card.

    big files slow transfer will cause problems.

    try another card reader as well.
     
    Rob, Dec 24, 2012
    #4
  5. BrJohan

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 22:15:16 +0100, Alfred Molon <>
    wrote:
    : In article <>,
    : BrJohan says...
    : > Yesterday I returned home after a trip, carrying with me some 1500 DNG-images on a SDXC-card. After importing to LR4, I saw that ~200 of the imagefiles were corrupt (See attached screenshot). The corrupt images were spread out (seemingly at random) over the days of the journey.
    : >
    : > I have tried reading with different cardreaders and also direct from camera to USB. Same result. Embedded JPEG-previews are OK.
    : >
    : > I have used that particular card-camera combination before without troubles.
    : >
    : > Is the SDXC-card or the camera the primary suspect?
    :
    : Probably more likely the memory card, although it's hard to guess what
    : exactly went wrong.
    :
    : On longer trips I usually carry a notebook computer with me and review
    : the images in the evenings. Therefore the problem you are reporting
    : can't happen to me, because I would detect it in the evening of the
    : first day when reviewing the images. I also review some images during
    : the day when I'm out shooting, to check for instance if they are sharp.
    :
    : Some call this image review 'chimping', claiming that real photographers
    : just shoot and don't review in the field. But the reality is that it is
    : unwise to shoot and blindly rely on the equipment used.

    I hadn't realized that "chimping" is a pejorative term. But in any case, few
    of the pompous pronouncements one hears about what "real photographers" do
    actually come from real photographers.

    : There are so many possible reasons for which an image may not be what
    : you would imagine it should be. We all use very capable, very high-tech
    : equipment which is able to do things which people would have considered
    : unimaginable just 10 or 20 years ago. But the technology it not that
    : mature and can fail occasionally for a multitude of reasons.
    :
    : Better to do random checks at every step of the image creation process,
    : from the image capture, to the storage, conversion, processing etc.
    : Better being a bit paranoid than sorry.

    Exactly. If you're too careful, who's going to know? If you're not careful
    enough, everyone will know.

    : I'm currently on a trip in southern Italy and you wouldn't believe how
    : often I check things. In the evenings, I review all images taken during
    : the day, delete the double or blurred ones, and make two backups on two
    : separate USB HDDs (in addition to the copy on the notebook computer).

    If I'm doing a long or especially important shoot, I like to use more than one
    card, whether I need to or not. If the worst happens and a card goes bad, at
    least I haven't lost everything. A high-quality card going bad is a rare
    event; and if two cards appear to go bad in the same shoot, the problem is
    almost certainly elsewhere in your equipment. And nobody who's serious enough
    about photography to read these newsgroups is likely to use anything but
    high-quality cards.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Dec 25, 2012
    #5
  6. Re: What's wrong ...? (More details)

    BrJohan skrev 2012-12-24 15:39:
    > Yesterday I returned home after a trip, carrying with me some 1500 DNG-images on a SDXC-card. After importing to LR4, I saw that ~200 of the imagefiles were corrupt (See attached screenshot). The corrupt images were spread out (seemingly at random) over the days of the journey.
    >
    > I have tried reading with different cardreaders and also direct from camera to USB. Same result. Embedded JPEG-previews are OK.
    >
    > I have used that particular card-camera combination before without troubles.
    >
    > Is the SDXC-card or the camera the primary suspect?
    >

    Camera: Pentax K-5
    Card: SanDisk Ultra® SDXC™ card 64GB

    My ordinary work flow for cards:
    Copying from card to computer with Ingestamatic.
    Importing to LR.
    Deleting 'bad' pictures from computer disk.
    Backing up remaining pictures.
    If remaining space on card is considered 'too small' I delete all
    files on the card (from the computer)
    Every time I insert a card in camera I check if it is empty. If so, I
    format it.

    In this particular case, I am rather confident that I did format the
    card in the camera, although not 100%.

    Screenshot:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/thoknq5h4j3g7mc/Snap 2012-12-24 at 15.19.20.jpg
     
    Bror Johansson, Dec 25, 2012
    #6
  7. BrJohan

    Robert Coe Guest

    Re: What's wrong ...? (More details)

    On Tue, 25 Dec 2012 16:49:13 +0100, Bror Johansson <> wrote:
    : BrJohan skrev 2012-12-24 15:39:
    : > Yesterday I returned home after a trip, carrying with me some 1500 DNG-images on a SDXC-card. After importing to LR4, I saw that ~200 of the imagefiles were corrupt (See attached screenshot). The corrupt images were spread out (seemingly at random) over the days of the journey.
    : >
    : > I have tried reading with different cardreaders and also direct from camera to USB. Same result. Embedded JPEG-previews are OK.
    : >
    : > I have used that particular card-camera combination before without troubles.
    : >
    : > Is the SDXC-card or the camera the primary suspect?
    : >
    : Camera: Pentax K-5
    : Card: SanDisk Ultra® SDXC™ card 64GB
    :
    : My ordinary work flow for cards:
    : Copying from card to computer with Ingestamatic.
    : Importing to LR.
    : Deleting 'bad' pictures from computer disk.
    : Backing up remaining pictures.
    : If remaining space on card is considered 'too small' I delete all
    : files on the card (from the computer)
    : Every time I insert a card in camera I check if it is empty. If so, I
    : format it.
    :
    : In this particular case, I am rather confident that I did format the
    : card in the camera, although not 100%.
    :
    : Screenshot:
    : https://www.dropbox.com/s/thoknq5h4j3g7mc/Snap 2012-12-24 at 15.19.20.jpg

    Can you say with absolute certainty that Ingestamatic doesn't modify the
    contents of the memory card in any way? If not, I'd worry that that's where
    the problem lies. Getting the data from the card to the computer is the most
    vulnerable step in anyone's workflow, since there's no backup of any kind
    until it's done. IMO, the best practice is to do the initial copy step in the
    simplest manner available and start the tricky stuff only when you know you
    have something to revert to. IOW copy with the OS's copy-and-paste or
    drag-and-drop or with a highly regarded, industrial-strength photo editor. (I
    do my copies with Canon's Digital Photo Professional, and I avoid even
    renaming the image files on the card itself.)

    I have nothing bad to say about Ingestamatic. (I never heard of it until you
    mantioned it above and I googled it a few minutes ago.) But it appears to be
    the work of a single author and implements a number of complex features that
    may have obscure side effects. I'd be extremely wary of giving such a program
    direct access to my memory cards. I might feel that way even if I'd written
    the program myself.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Dec 25, 2012
    #7
  8. BrJohan

    nospam Guest

    Re: What's wrong ...? (More details)

    In article <2012122511112477923-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
    Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

    > > You can still recover images from a re-formatted drive using tools such
    > > as RescuePRO.
    > >
    > > Reformatting doesn't do much to a card except setup the origin file
    > > structure. It definitely does not erase the card (some formatting
    > > utilities will do so, but the in-camera "format" just sets up the card.
    > > Why it takes only a second or 2 to complete).

    >
    > That depends on camera. RescuePro notes:
    > "Some cameras wipe the images during delete/format and cannot be recovered."


    almost none do, as it would take a *lot* of time to overwrite every
    single image, especially on a high capacity card full of hundreds of
    photos.

    instead, cameras just zero out the directory, which takes a couple of
    seconds.
     
    nospam, Dec 25, 2012
    #8
  9. BrJohan

    Rob Guest

    Re: What's wrong ...? (More details)

    On 26/12/2012 2:49 AM, Bror Johansson wrote:
    > BrJohan skrev 2012-12-24 15:39:
    >> Yesterday I returned home after a trip, carrying with me some 1500
    >> DNG-images on a SDXC-card. After importing to LR4, I saw that ~200 of
    >> the imagefiles were corrupt (See attached screenshot). The corrupt
    >> images were spread out (seemingly at random) over the days of the
    >> journey.
    >>
    >> I have tried reading with different cardreaders and also direct from
    >> camera to USB. Same result. Embedded JPEG-previews are OK.
    >>
    >> I have used that particular card-camera combination before without
    >> troubles.
    >>
    >> Is the SDXC-card or the camera the primary suspect?
    >>

    > Camera: Pentax K-5
    > Card: SanDisk Ultra® SDXC™ card 64GB
    >
    > My ordinary work flow for cards:
    > Copying from card to computer with Ingestamatic.
    > Importing to LR.
    > Deleting 'bad' pictures from computer disk.
    > Backing up remaining pictures.
    > If remaining space on card is considered 'too small' I delete all
    > files on the card (from the computer)
    > Every time I insert a card in camera I check if it is empty. If so, I
    > format it.
    >
    > In this particular case, I am rather confident that I did format the
    > card in the camera, although not 100%.
    >
    > Screenshot:
    > https://www.dropbox.com/s/thoknq5h4j3g7mc/Snap 2012-12-24 at 15.19.20.jpg
    >
    >


    The camera K-5 when you read the specs is it recommended that you can
    use a 64Gb card?

    Would not be at all surprised if its too big and starting to cause problems.
     
    Rob, Dec 25, 2012
    #9
  10. BrJohan

    Rob Guest

    Re: What's wrong ...? (More details)

    On 26/12/2012 4:25 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
    > On 2012.12.25 12:07 , Savageduck wrote:
    >> On 2012-12-25 07:49:13 -0800, Bror Johansson <> said:

    >
    >>> Every time I insert a card in camera I check if it is empty. If so, I
    >>> format it.

    >>
    >> My thinking is somewhat different. I reformat full, or partially full
    >> cards once I have assured myself that I have my triple redundant backup
    >> completed. I never delete image files using the computer.

    >
    > You can still recover images from a re-formatted drive using tools such
    > as RescuePRO.
    >


    That will also depend on the method which you formatted the card.


    > Reformatting doesn't do much to a card except setup the origin file
    > structure. It definitely does not erase the card (some formatting
    > utilities will do so, but the in-camera "format" just sets up the card.
    > Why it takes only a second or 2 to complete).
    >
    >
     
    Rob, Dec 25, 2012
    #10
  11. BrJohan

    Rob Guest

    Re: What's wrong ...? (More details)

    On 26/12/2012 9:51 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
    > On 2012.12.25 17:30 , Rob wrote:
    >> On 26/12/2012 4:25 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
    >>> On 2012.12.25 12:07 , Savageduck wrote:
    >>>> On 2012-12-25 07:49:13 -0800, Bror Johansson <> said:
    >>>
    >>>>> Every time I insert a card in camera I check if it is empty. If
    >>>>> so, I
    >>>>> format it.
    >>>>
    >>>> My thinking is somewhat different. I reformat full, or partially full
    >>>> cards once I have assured myself that I have my triple redundant backup
    >>>> completed. I never delete image files using the computer.
    >>>
    >>> You can still recover images from a re-formatted drive using tools such
    >>> as RescuePRO.
    >>>

    >>
    >> That will also depend on the method which you formatted the card.

    >
    > For most cameras it's no issue - eg: if you format the card and it is
    > ready in a couple seconds, then it hasn't affected the files at all. And
    > that is every digital camera I've ever used.
    >
    > The 'duck points out that one of his cameras will _optionally_ do a full
    > erase format - but it's not the usual mode.
    >
    >



    If I format the card in the camera its readable but if I quick format in
    the PC its not recoverable.
     
    Rob, Dec 26, 2012
    #11
  12. BrJohan

    nospam Guest

    Re: What's wrong ...? (More details)

    In article <kbdqvf$q6f$>, Rob
    <> wrote:

    > If I format the card in the camera its readable but if I quick format in
    > the PC its not recoverable.


    then you need a better recovery utility.

    a 'quick format' of a card will still be recoverable. all that does is
    overwrite the directory. the actual photos are still there. that's why
    it's quick.
     
    nospam, Dec 26, 2012
    #12
  13. BrJohan

    Rob Guest

    Re: What's wrong ...? (More details)

    On 26/12/2012 7:44 PM, nospam wrote:
    > In article <kbdqvf$q6f$>, Rob
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> If I format the card in the camera its readable but if I quick format in
    >> the PC its not recoverable.

    >
    > then you need a better recovery utility.
    >
    > a 'quick format' of a card will still be recoverable. all that does is
    > overwrite the directory. the actual photos are still there. that's why
    > it's quick.
    >



    Not if you are using the for mentioned file recovery programme.
     
    Rob, Dec 26, 2012
    #13
  14. Re: What's wrong ...? (More details)

    Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    > On 2012-12-25 07:49:13 -0800, Bror Johansson <> said:


    >> If remaining space on card is considered 'too small' I delete all
    >> files on the card (from the computer)


    > Not a particularly good idea. The thing to remember is, no two image
    > files are the same file size and that is but one reason random deletion
    > by computer can result in subsequent corrupted files on the card.


    And in how far does that differ when the camera is the one deleting the files
    (which in both cases just means marking the blocks as unused and setting
    the first character of the file name to a reserved special value)?

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Dec 27, 2012
    #14
  15. Robert Coe <> wrote:
    > On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 22:15:16 +0100, Alfred Molon <>
    > wrote:
    > : In article <>,
    > : BrJohan says...


    > : > Yesterday I returned home after a trip, carrying with me some 1500 DNG-images on a SDXC-card. After importing to LR4, I saw that ~200 of the imagefiles were corrupt (See attached screenshot). The corrupt images were spread out (seemingly at random) over the days of the journey.
    > : >
    > : > I have tried reading with different cardreaders and also direct from camera to USB. Same result. Embedded JPEG-previews are OK.
    > : >
    > : > I have used that particular card-camera combination before without troubles.
    > : >
    > : > Is the SDXC-card or the camera the primary suspect?
    > :
    > : Probably more likely the memory card, although it's hard to guess what
    > : exactly went wrong.
    > :
    > : On longer trips I usually carry a notebook computer with me and review
    > : the images in the evenings. Therefore the problem you are reporting
    > : can't happen to me, because I would detect it in the evening of the
    > : first day when reviewing the images. I also review some images during
    > : the day when I'm out shooting, to check for instance if they are sharp.
    > :
    > : Some call this image review 'chimping', claiming that real photographers
    > : just shoot and don't review in the field. But the reality is that it is
    > : unwise to shoot and blindly rely on the equipment used.


    > I hadn't realized that "chimping" is a pejorative term. But in any case, few
    > of the pompous pronouncements one hears about what "real photographers" do
    > actually come from real photographers.


    I don't think chimping is a necessarily pejorative term, although it's
    true that some who disapprove of it use it pejoratively. There are
    plenty of good professional photographers and photography bloggers who
    use the term non-pejoratively. I don't recall any photographer whose
    opinions I respect using "chimping" pejoratively :)

    --
    Chris Malcolm
     
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 27, 2012
    #15
  16. Re: What's wrong ...? (More details)

    Robert Coe <> wrote:

    > Can you say with absolute certainty that Ingestamatic doesn't modify the
    > contents of the memory card in any way?


    Noone can say that, not even the programmer:
    - Non-trivial programs reuse code (libraries, DLLs, ...) which
    would need to be checked.
    - The compiler could carry a backdoor which causes it to modify
    the contents of the memory card.
    - No, checking the compiler sources doesn't help, since you could
    put code in it that detects if a compiler is being compiled,
    in which case the "if a compiler is being compiled" and the
    "if memory cards are accessed" code is put into the new compiler
    binary. Then you can excise that part of the source code again,
    but the compiler will still carry that backdoor --- and so will
    any compiler compiled by it.
    - You'd need to check the firmware in the CPU, for it too can
    randomly execute embedded code to give compilers a little extra
    or to modify the contents of the memory card.
    - No, even the write protection on the SDxx card doesn't help.
    That's only obeyed in firmware --- which you'd have to check.
    Needless to say, said firmware could randomly modify the contents
    of the memory card ...
    - The SDxx cards do have a flash abstraction layer (FAL), which
    does things like wear leveling, ECC handling, clearing whole
    erase blocks, remapping real flash write blocks to whatever it
    presents the SDxx card reader. Guess what --- it's firmware,
    and of course it can modify the contents of the memory card
    ... oh, and that SECURE in SD means that you're not supposed
    to access the secure content (think worried music industry)
    which also means they make it hard to read out the firmware
    (otherwise you'd know how to access and decode such content ...)
    - Let's not forget hard drives --- their firmware can decide
    not to deliver exactly what what stored and not to store
    exactly what was delivered. So even reading the raw
    magnetized domains from the platters of the hard drive
    doesn't give you the binary code that's then run on the
    computer ...

    You'd need to examine every last bit of all of the software and
    firmware which compose the complete system you use --- in binary
    --- and understand it thoroughly and completely to have any idea
    whether there is a modification of the contents of the memory
    card *on purpose*. For that purpose, you'd need to understand the
    hardware as implemented (with all documented and still undocumented
    or even unknown errors), too. Do you have anything urgent to do
    in the next couple centuries?

    And even then you still can't rule out an α-particle flipped a
    DRAM cell (which --- unfortunately --- are about the only part in
    your normal computer that doesn't use ECC or even a parity bit,
    which would lower (but not eliminate) the chance of that having
    an effect)) which caused a unwanted change in the SD card.

    > If not, I'd worry that that's where
    > the problem lies.


    Because?

    > Getting the data from the card to the computer is the most
    > vulnerable step in anyone's workflow, since there's no backup of any kind
    > until it's done.


    Ah --- no. You can use a camera with 2 cards and write
    simultaneously. You can use an image tank. etc.

    > IMO, the best practice is to do the initial copy step in the
    > simplest manner available


    which means
    $ cp -av /media/card/DCIM/* ~/Pictures/$EVENT/

    Or maybe compute and compare checksums to ensure the copy seems
    correct (and automatically correct it if not):
    $ rsync -cav /media/card/DCIM/* ~/Pictures/$EVENT/
    (run it until it reports no more files being changed)
    instead of using LR or Ingestamatic or whatever else.

    > (I
    > do my copies with Canon's Digital Photo Professional, and I avoid even
    > renaming the image files on the card itself.)


    I use cp, and of course, I don't touch the files on the card.
    Oh, and my software uses sidecar files, never writing to the RAWs
    even further down in the workflow.

    > I have nothing bad to say about Ingestamatic. (I never heard of it until you
    > mantioned it above and I googled it a few minutes ago.) But it appears to be
    > the work of a single author and implements a number of complex features that
    > may have obscure side effects. I'd be extremely wary of giving such a program
    > direct access to my memory cards. I might feel that way even if I'd written
    > the program myself.


    Well, it certainly tries to be a jack of all trades instead a
    master of one.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Dec 27, 2012
    #16
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