what range would you expect from a 820.11/g router/card

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Peter Huebner, Jul 9, 2005.

  1. I am just wondering if it is at all feasible to network with my
    neighbour's lan. They just got ADSL and will need a router for it, and I
    am wondering if it would be a good idea to try to combine forces, and
    get one with a wireless port :)

    Their house is about 100-150m away, no buildings in between, they are on
    a slight rise so ground interference is about as minimal as you can get;
    would it work?

    I am sure that this can be done with external arials et cetera, but
    that seems a bit further than I really want to go (and probably further
    than they would be prepared to).

    -Peter
     
    Peter Huebner, Jul 9, 2005
    #1
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  2. Peter Huebner

    Richard Guest

    Peter Huebner wrote:
    > I am just wondering if it is at all feasible to network with my
    > neighbour's lan. They just got ADSL and will need a router for it, and I
    > am wondering if it would be a good idea to try to combine forces, and
    > get one with a wireless port :)
    >
    > Their house is about 100-150m away, no buildings in between, they are on
    > a slight rise so ground interference is about as minimal as you can get;
    > would it work?
    >
    > I am sure that this can be done with external arials et cetera, but
    > that seems a bit further than I really want to go (and probably further
    > than they would be prepared to).


    If you have line of sight between the routers it should be doable over that
    distance. If not then a small patch antenna is cheap and will give you a good
    10dB over the stock stick antenna. Also upping the power to 80mw or so will help
    somewhat.
     
    Richard, Jul 9, 2005
    #2
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  3. Peter Huebner

    thing Guest

    Richard wrote:
    > Peter Huebner wrote:
    >
    >> I am just wondering if it is at all feasible to network with my
    >> neighbour's lan. They just got ADSL and will need a router for it, and
    >> I am wondering if it would be a good idea to try to combine forces,
    >> and get one with a wireless port :)
    >>
    >> Their house is about 100-150m away, no buildings in between, they are
    >> on a slight rise so ground interference is about as minimal as you can
    >> get;
    >> would it work?
    >>
    >> I am sure that this can be done with external arials et cetera, but
    >> that seems a bit further than I really want to go (and probably
    >> further than they would be prepared to).

    >
    >
    > If you have line of sight between the routers it should be doable over
    > that distance. If not then a small patch antenna is cheap and will give
    > you a good 10dB over the stock stick antenna. Also upping the power to
    > 80mw or so will help somewhat.


    This is one of those suck it and see's we have some wi-fi kit
    registering line of sight in the wgtn cbd at 3km+ odd (in fact some
    moron was complainig we were over power and damaging his setup, yet we
    were within spec so told him to take a running jump), yet in the same
    direction but at a steeper drop (from on a hill) it wont do the distance
    you describe.....the stuffs damn weird.......

    The other alternative is Cat5e, if its below 100m, if over you will need
    to do power over ethernet and a cheap 5 port switch 1/2 way....
    depends on the lay of the land on just how practical cabling is.

    If it was me and I wanted performance I'd go cat5e and see if it worked
    as is. If it was too far I would cable tie 12v power to the cat5e and
    have a $60 switch or hub (only 10 half duplex) half way in a water tight
    box....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Jul 9, 2005
    #3
  4. Peter Huebner

    Richard Guest

    thing wrote:

    > This is one of those suck it and see's we have some wi-fi kit
    > registering line of sight in the wgtn cbd at 3km+ odd (in fact some
    > moron was complainig we were over power and damaging his setup, yet we
    > were within spec so told him to take a running jump), yet in the same
    > direction but at a steeper drop (from on a hill) it wont do the distance
    > you describe.....the stuffs damn weird.......


    Yeah, and some people manage to get incredible links out of crap they have made,
    and a proper antenna cant link at half the distance etc.

    > The other alternative is Cat5e, if its below 100m, if over you will need
    > to do power over ethernet and a cheap 5 port switch 1/2 way....
    > depends on the lay of the land on just how practical cabling is.


    10 meg full duplex will go thru a whole box of cat-5e (305m) without problem.

    100 meg was iffy but was faster then 10, not the full 100 meg tho.

    > If it was me and I wanted performance I'd go cat5e and see if it worked
    > as is. If it was too far I would cable tie 12v power to the cat5e and
    > have a $60 switch or hub (only 10 half duplex) half way in a water tight
    > box....
     
    Richard, Jul 9, 2005
    #4
  5. Peter Huebner

    Mercury Guest

    google on Pringles Can Antena.
    A guy in Wellington (uni team) was making long range connections using
    chinese deep frying scoops. This may be what thing was refering to.

    fact is that they work. Physics doesn't care about RRP, Make etc.


    "Richard" <> wrote in message
    news:42cfacdb$...
    > thing wrote:
    >
    >> This is one of those suck it and see's we have some wi-fi kit registering
    >> line of sight in the wgtn cbd at 3km+ odd (in fact some moron was
    >> complainig we were over power and damaging his setup, yet we were within
    >> spec so told him to take a running jump), yet in the same direction but
    >> at a steeper drop (from on a hill) it wont do the distance you
    >> describe.....the stuffs damn weird.......

    >
    > Yeah, and some people manage to get incredible links out of crap they have
    > made, and a proper antenna cant link at half the distance etc.
    >
    >> The other alternative is Cat5e, if its below 100m, if over you will need
    >> to do power over ethernet and a cheap 5 port switch 1/2 way....
    >> depends on the lay of the land on just how practical cabling is.

    >
    > 10 meg full duplex will go thru a whole box of cat-5e (305m) without
    > problem.
    >
    > 100 meg was iffy but was faster then 10, not the full 100 meg tho.
    >
    >> If it was me and I wanted performance I'd go cat5e and see if it worked
    >> as is. If it was too far I would cable tie 12v power to the cat5e and
    >> have a $60 switch or hub (only 10 half duplex) half way in a water tight
    >> box....
     
    Mercury, Jul 9, 2005
    #5
  6. Peter Huebner

    Bob McLellan Guest

    Linksys claim 500m for their new AP

    Peter Huebner wrote:
    > I am just wondering if it is at all feasible to network with my
    > neighbour's lan. They just got ADSL and will need a router for it, and I
    > am wondering if it would be a good idea to try to combine forces, and
    > get one with a wireless port :)
    >
    > Their house is about 100-150m away, no buildings in between, they are on
    > a slight rise so ground interference is about as minimal as you can get;
    > would it work?
    >
    > I am sure that this can be done with external arials et cetera, but
    > that seems a bit further than I really want to go (and probably further
    > than they would be prepared to).
    >
    > -Peter
     
    Bob McLellan, Jul 10, 2005
    #6
  7. Richard wrote:
    >> The other alternative is Cat5e, if its below 100m, if over you will
    >> need to do power over ethernet and a cheap 5 port switch 1/2 way....
    >> depends on the lay of the land on just how practical cabling is.


    > 10 meg full duplex will go thru a whole box of cat-5e (305m) without
    > problem.


    You should be able to get ~400M with it, not sure of the exact figure,
    but I'm sure Mr Google knows.

    > 100 meg was iffy but was faster then 10, not the full 100 meg tho.


    I've used 100Mbit Full Duplex over 125M, but that was about it.

    --
    http://dave.net.nz <- My personal site.
    http://synaptic.net.nz <- Dunedin Based IT and ISP services
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jul 10, 2005
    #7
  8. Peter Huebner

    Geoff M Guest

    On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:53:21 +1200, Peter Huebner wrote:

    > I am just wondering if it is at all feasible to network with my
    > neighbour's lan. They just got ADSL and will need a router for it, and I
    > am wondering if it would be a good idea to try to combine forces, and
    > get one with a wireless port :)
    >
    > Their house is about 100-150m away, no buildings in between, they are on
    > a slight rise so ground interference is about as minimal as you can get;
    > would it work?
    >
    > I am sure that this can be done with external arials et cetera, but
    > that seems a bit further than I really want to go (and probably further
    > than they would be prepared to).
    >
    > -Peter


    I have heard of people using old Sky or Ihug sat dishes for directional
    anntenae for WiFi. If anyone wants an Ihug Starnet dish, I have one on the
    house I made the mistke of paying $800 for when they first came out...
    Geoff
     
    Geoff M, Jul 12, 2005
    #8
  9. Geoff M wrote:
    > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:53:21 +1200, Peter Huebner wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I am just wondering if it is at all feasible to network with my
    >>neighbour's lan. They just got ADSL and will need a router for it, and I
    >>am wondering if it would be a good idea to try to combine forces, and
    >>get one with a wireless port :)
    >>
    >>Their house is about 100-150m away, no buildings in between, they are on
    >>a slight rise so ground interference is about as minimal as you can get;
    >>would it work?
    >>
    >> I am sure that this can be done with external arials et cetera, but
    >>that seems a bit further than I really want to go (and probably further
    >>than they would be prepared to).
    >>
    >>-Peter

    >
    >
    > I have heard of people using old Sky or Ihug sat dishes for directional
    > anntenae for WiFi. If anyone wants an Ihug Starnet dish, I have one on the
    > house I made the mistke of paying $800 for when they first came out...
    > Geoff

    I'm using old sky dishes retro fitted with a Biquad feeder. Getting
    1.5kms+ LOS. I haven't tried optimising my hack and would be interested
    to know how far other people are getting with a similar setup. I'm
    getting approx -70dB level @1.5km with 28mW. Upping the power on my
    WRT54g doesn't seem to improve the range. :(
     
    MaximumDamage, Jul 12, 2005
    #9
  10. Peter Huebner

    PAM. Guest

    > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:53:21 +1200, Peter Huebner wrote:
    >
    > > I am just wondering if it is at all feasible to network with my
    > > neighbour's lan. They just got ADSL and will need a router for it, and I
    > > am wondering if it would be a good idea to try to combine forces, and
    > > get one with a wireless port :)
    > >
    > > Their house is about 100-150m away, no buildings in between, they are on
    > > a slight rise so ground interference is about as minimal as you can get;
    > > would it work?
    > >
    > > I am sure that this can be done with external arials et cetera, but
    > > that seems a bit further than I really want to go (and probably further
    > > than they would be prepared to).


    How about looking at the newest technologies. There's WiMax (which does not
    connect to 802.11g IIRC) but there are others that do. Not sure what they're
    called. Click Online (BBC tech show) did a brief mention of them 1-2 weeks
    ago.
    I'm about 10 metres away from my access point which has to go through 3
    walls in a direct line of sight. I get around a 10% signal most of the time
    but it still works OK. Around 50% external noise.
    Definitely slower than my partners PC which is about 30cm away from the
    access point and is lightning fast :)

    PAM.
     
    PAM., Jul 12, 2005
    #10
  11. Peter Huebner

    Mercury Guest

    I think it was Massey that has a project for long distance wifi - several
    km's on several legs.

    "MaximumDamage" <> wrote in message
    news:dav216$vun$...
    > Geoff M wrote:
    >> On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:53:21 +1200, Peter Huebner wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>I am just wondering if it is at all feasible to network with my
    >>>neighbour's lan. They just got ADSL and will need a router for it, and I
    >>>am wondering if it would be a good idea to try to combine forces, and get
    >>>one with a wireless port :)
    >>>
    >>>Their house is about 100-150m away, no buildings in between, they are on
    >>>a slight rise so ground interference is about as minimal as you can get;
    >>>would it work?
    >>>
    >>> I am sure that this can be done with external arials et cetera, but that
    >>> seems a bit further than I really want to go (and probably further than
    >>> they would be prepared to).
    >>>-Peter

    >>
    >>
    >> I have heard of people using old Sky or Ihug sat dishes for directional
    >> anntenae for WiFi. If anyone wants an Ihug Starnet dish, I have one on
    >> the
    >> house I made the mistke of paying $800 for when they first came out...
    >> Geoff

    > I'm using old sky dishes retro fitted with a Biquad feeder. Getting
    > 1.5kms+ LOS. I haven't tried optimising my hack and would be interested
    > to know how far other people are getting with a similar setup. I'm
    > getting approx -70dB level @1.5km with 28mW. Upping the power on my
    > WRT54g doesn't seem to improve the range. :(
     
    Mercury, Jul 12, 2005
    #11
  12. Peter Huebner

    Don Hills Guest

    In article <dav216$vun$>, MaximumDamage <> wrote:
    >I'm using old sky dishes retro fitted with a Biquad feeder. Getting
    >1.5kms+ LOS. I haven't tried optimising my hack and would be interested
    >to know how far other people are getting with a similar setup. I'm
    >getting approx -70dB level @1.5km with 28mW. Upping the power on my
    >WRT54g doesn't seem to improve the range. :(


    A group of radio amateurs (hams) in the USA have achieved over 100 Km range
    with commercially available 24 dBi antennas and amplifiers, and over 50 Km
    without amplifiers (40 mW). They found that there is a built-in limitation
    in that the default 802.11 timeout values for retries only allow 15 to 20 Km
    distance before the link goes into lost packet retry and drops the
    throughput considerably. They found some cards that allow changing the timer
    settings via software to allow full throughput on the longer connections. It
    was an article in QST magazine - sorry, don't know the issue number, I
    browsed it yesterday at the public library.

    --
    Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand
    "New interface closely resembles Presentation Manager,
    preparing you for the wonders of OS/2!"
    -- Microsoft advertisement on the box for Windows 2.11 for 286
     
    Don Hills, Jul 13, 2005
    #12
  13. Don Hills wrote:
    >>I'm using old sky dishes retro fitted with a Biquad feeder. Getting
    >>1.5kms+ LOS. I haven't tried optimising my hack and would be interested
    >>to know how far other people are getting with a similar setup. I'm
    >>getting approx -70dB level @1.5km with 28mW. Upping the power on my
    >>WRT54g doesn't seem to improve the range. :(


    > A group of radio amateurs (hams) in the USA have achieved over 100 Km range
    > with commercially available 24 dBi antennas and amplifiers, and over 50 Km
    > without amplifiers (40 mW). They found that there is a built-in limitation
    > in that the default 802.11 timeout values for retries only allow 15 to 20 Km
    > distance before the link goes into lost packet retry and drops the
    > throughput considerably. They found some cards that allow changing the timer
    > settings via software to allow full throughput on the longer connections. It
    > was an article in QST magazine - sorry, don't know the issue number, I
    > browsed it yesterday at the public library.


    The longest link I have helped setup was from rudd rd in Dunedin to Toko
    Mouth(south of dunedin), that was ~24KMs in length, we initially used
    19db antennas with wrt54g routers(un-hacked firmware, set to max) on
    each end, but switched to 24dB on the rudd rd end due to a bit of
    interferrence we were getting(the extra 5dB "got rid of" the noise :)

    --
    http://dave.net.nz <- My personal site.
    http://synaptic.net.nz <- Dunedin Based IT and ISP services
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jul 13, 2005
    #13
  14. Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:
    > Don Hills wrote:
    >
    >>> I'm using old sky dishes retro fitted with a Biquad feeder. Getting
    >>> 1.5kms+ LOS. I haven't tried optimising my hack and would be interested
    >>> to know how far other people are getting with a similar setup. I'm
    >>> getting approx -70dB level @1.5km with 28mW. Upping the power on my
    >>> WRT54g doesn't seem to improve the range. :(

    >
    >
    >> A group of radio amateurs (hams) in the USA have achieved over 100 Km
    >> range
    >> with commercially available 24 dBi antennas and amplifiers, and over
    >> 50 Km
    >> without amplifiers (40 mW). They found that there is a built-in
    >> limitation
    >> in that the default 802.11 timeout values for retries only allow 15 to
    >> 20 Km
    >> distance before the link goes into lost packet retry and drops the
    >> throughput considerably. They found some cards that allow changing the
    >> timer
    >> settings via software to allow full throughput on the longer
    >> connections. It
    >> was an article in QST magazine - sorry, don't know the issue number, I
    >> browsed it yesterday at the public library.

    >
    >
    > The longest link I have helped setup was from rudd rd in Dunedin to Toko
    > Mouth(south of dunedin), that was ~24KMs in length, we initially used
    > 19db antennas with wrt54g routers(un-hacked firmware, set to max) on

    At 2.4G a 24dbi dish is damn big.
    > each end, but switched to 24dB on the rudd rd end due to a bit of
    > interferrence we were getting(the extra 5dB "got rid of" the noise :)
    >

    I'd expect that the sky dishes will go a good deal further than 1.5km.
    I'm happy with their present range, it fulfills my requiremnets, but am
    curious as to their full potential.
    I found a dish calculator on the internet that suggested that at 2.4Ghz
    a sky dish had a gain of around 19dbi and a beam width of 15 degrees or so.
    I don't have a commercial 19-20dBi antenna to compare them to.
    Does anyone have a 20dbi dish pair and can give me transmission power,
    distance and signal levels (in dB) that I could go from.
    Considering that the commercial units cost in excess of $150 (vs used
    sky dishes cost me $10 each plus fittings) I won't be buying one just
    for curiosity sake.
    At the moment I have 5 dishes in operation and LOTS of cash saved :)
     
    MaximumDamage, Jul 13, 2005
    #14
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