what is the deal with nonopay

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by nospam, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. nospam

    nospam Guest

    nospam, Feb 3, 2013
    #21
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  2. nospam

    EMB Guest

    On 3/02/2013 9:26 p.m., Crash McBash wrote:

    > Understood EMB - but 'good job' and 'thieving fsckers' often go
    > together in business in that those who provide an excellent service
    > demand and get premium pricing. Remember though that Datacom pitched
    > an alternative and presumably as the incumbent would have delivered a
    > more reliable service. Hindsight is unfair but it would seem that
    > Datacom might have been a better choice perhaps. I have not seen any
    > examination of this angle in the news media to date. Also I would
    > rather that MoE payments went to a kiwi 'thieving fscker' (with
    > associated IRD PAYE and income tax payments) than to an ozzie company.
    >

    There is charging a premium price for premium service, and there is
    charging at a level that can only be described as taking the piss -
    Datacom regularly fall into the latter category.

    I agree with your sentiments about the money staying within in NZ, but
    yet again we seem to have a NZ company feeling that they have a captive
    audience, showing contempt for their clients, and price gouging as much
    as they can. Much like the way our tourist industry works (but that's a
    different rant for a different forum).
     
    EMB, Feb 3, 2013
    #22
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  3. nospam

    Guest

    On Saturday, 2 February 2013 17:46:45 UTC+13, geoff wrote:
    [snip]
    > I'd like to see which ministers have an interest in, or
    > croinies in, Talent(less)3.


    Ask Chris Carter, who signed off on the deal in 2008 as one of his acts as Minister of Education, and the Secretary of Education, Karen Sewell.
     
    , Feb 4, 2013
    #23
  4. nospam

    JohnO Guest

    On Monday, 4 February 2013 13:15:33 UTC+13, wrote:
    > On Saturday, 2 February 2013 17:46:45 UTC+13, geoff wrote:
    >
    > [snip]
    >
    > > I'd like to see which ministers have an interest in, or

    >
    > > croinies in, Talent(less)3.

    >
    >
    >
    > Ask Chris Carter, who signed off on the deal in 2008 as one of his acts as Minister of Education, and the Secretary of Education, Karen Sewell.


    Carter's partner is/was a school principal. How ironic.
     
    JohnO, Feb 4, 2013
    #24
  5. nospam

    EMB Guest

    On 4/02/2013 4:08 p.m., JohnO wrote:
    > On Monday, 4 February 2013 13:15:33 UTC+13, wrote:
    >> On Saturday, 2 February 2013 17:46:45 UTC+13, geoff wrote:
    >>
    >> [snip]
    >>
    >>> I'd like to see which ministers have an interest in, or

    >>
    >>> croinies in, Talent(less)3.

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Ask Chris Carter, who signed off on the deal in 2008 as one of his acts as Minister of Education, and the Secretary of Education, Karen Sewell.

    >
    > Carter's partner is/was a school principal. How ironic.
    >

    I guess Carter's fucking him at work and at home. ;-)
     
    EMB, Feb 4, 2013
    #25
  6. nospam

    victor Guest

    On 3/02/2013 9:26 p.m., Crash McBash wrote:
    > On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 18:52:30 +1300, EMB <> wrote:
    >
    >> On 3/02/2013 2:56 p.m., Crash McBash wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>> I would also hope this inquiry would look into why Talent2 was chosen
    >>> over the previous system (supplied by Datacom IIRC). Datacom has been
    >>> around since the 60s, and operating payroll systems for much of that
    >>> time. It is also 100% NZ-owned. There must be a story behind taking
    >>> this contract away from Datacom to Talent2.
    >>>

    >> We have a significant relationship with Datacom. They do a good job
    >> too. However Datacom can in no way described as cheap - in fact I have
    >> trouble not describing them as a pack of thieving fsckers. In light of
    >> this we will not be doing business with them much beyond the short term,
    >> despite a 20 year history of dealing with them.
    >>
    >> I expect that they treated MoE in a similar manner and got a similar
    >> outcome.

    >
    > Understood EMB - but 'good job' and 'thieving fsckers' often go
    > together in business in that those who provide an excellent service
    > demand and get premium pricing. Remember though that Datacom pitched
    > an alternative and presumably as the incumbent would have delivered a
    > more reliable service. Hindsight is unfair but it would seem that
    > Datacom might have been a better choice perhaps. I have not seen any
    > examination of this angle in the news media to date. Also I would
    > rather that MoE payments went to a kiwi 'thieving fscker' (with
    > associated IRD PAYE and income tax payments) than to an ozzie company.
    >


    Datacom were offering the Peoplesoft payroll system.
    Owned by Oracle.
     
    victor, Feb 4, 2013
    #26
  7. nospam

    John S Guest

    On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 12:44:52 +1300, Gib Bogle wrote:

    > On 2/02/2013 11:27 a.m., nospam wrote:
    >>
    >> Anyone know what is the deal with Novopay?
    >>
    >> I heard Marcus Lush going crazy on Radio Live yesterday expressing his
    >> frustration at not understanding why they can't just "fix" the Novopay
    >> problems. I am equally frustrated at the huge lack of details on what
    >> exactly the problem is with Novopay. Apparently the problem is NOT
    >> software bugs. It is more to do with the complexity of the system and
    >> the fact that the people using it don't know how to use it properly.
    >>
    >> Presumably the Govt / Ministry agreed to and approved the basic design
    >> and functionality of the system. If it has the functionality they
    >> asked for and signed off on then they have only themselves to blame if
    >> it doesn't do the job adequately. If it does have the functionality
    >> required then they should put more resources into teaching people to
    >> use it properly.
    >>
    >> There is a large amount of publicity about the Novopay problems and
    >> the country deserves a proper explanation of what exactly is the cause
    >> of the errors.
    >>

    >
    > According to the radio news this morning, the problem is that the online
    > data entry system is unfriendly, and many schools have resorted to
    > sending info by email. No doubt this allows many errors to be
    > introduced when the info is manually entered by some low-paid peons
    > (maybe in India).


    There were also reports of some staff being paid ridiculous amounts - like
    hundreds of thousands of dollars instead of their normal pay.

    If this is the case, then the software developers missed out on one of the
    basic requirements of sound software - the provision of built-in checking
    and error flagging. There should have been a permissible range for
    expected salary payments, and anything outside the range should have been
    flagged for attention instead of simply being paid into the staff member's
    bank account.

    John S
     
    John S, Feb 5, 2013
    #27
  8. nospam

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Somewhere on teh intarwebs victor wrote:
    > On 3/02/2013 9:26 p.m., Crash McBash wrote:
    >> On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 18:52:30 +1300, EMB <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> On 3/02/2013 2:56 p.m., Crash McBash wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>> I would also hope this inquiry would look into why Talent2 was
    >>>> chosen over the previous system (supplied by Datacom IIRC). Datacom has
    >>>> been around since the 60s, and operating payroll
    >>>> systems for much of that time. It is also 100% NZ-owned. There
    >>>> must be a story behind taking this contract away from Datacom to
    >>>> Talent2.
    >>> We have a significant relationship with Datacom. They do a good job
    >>> too. However Datacom can in no way described as cheap - in fact I
    >>> have trouble not describing them as a pack of thieving fsckers. In
    >>> light of this we will not be doing business with them much beyond
    >>> the short term, despite a 20 year history of dealing with them.
    >>>
    >>> I expect that they treated MoE in a similar manner and got a similar
    >>> outcome.

    >>
    >> Understood EMB - but 'good job' and 'thieving fsckers' often go
    >> together in business in that those who provide an excellent service
    >> demand and get premium pricing. Remember though that Datacom pitched
    >> an alternative and presumably as the incumbent would have delivered a
    >> more reliable service. Hindsight is unfair but it would seem that
    >> Datacom might have been a better choice perhaps. I have not seen any
    >> examination of this angle in the news media to date. Also I would
    >> rather that MoE payments went to a kiwi 'thieving fscker' (with
    >> associated IRD PAYE and income tax payments) than to an ozzie
    >> company.

    >
    > Datacom were offering the Peoplesoft payroll system.
    > Owned by Oracle.


    That explains why it worked so well then. Larry didn't get to be that rich
    by offering shoddy products.
    --
    /Shaun.

    "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
    cozy little classification in the DSM."
    David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
     
    ~misfit~, Feb 5, 2013
    #28
  9. nospam

    Gib Bogle Guest

    On 5/02/2013 8:31 p.m., John S wrote:
    > On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 12:44:52 +1300, Gib Bogle wrote:
    >
    >> According to the radio news this morning, the problem is that the online
    >> data entry system is unfriendly, and many schools have resorted to
    >> sending info by email. No doubt this allows many errors to be
    >> introduced when the info is manually entered by some low-paid peons
    >> (maybe in India).

    >
    > There were also reports of some staff being paid ridiculous amounts - like
    > hundreds of thousands of dollars instead of their normal pay.
    >
    > If this is the case, then the software developers missed out on one of the
    > basic requirements of sound software - the provision of built-in checking
    > and error flagging. There should have been a permissible range for
    > expected salary payments, and anything outside the range should have been
    > flagged for attention instead of simply being paid into the staff member's
    > bank account.
    >
    > John S
    >


    Seems pretty basic.
     
    Gib Bogle, Feb 5, 2013
    #29
  10. nospam

    victor Guest

    On 6/02/2013 2:12 a.m., ~misfit~ wrote:
    > Somewhere on teh intarwebs victor wrote:


    >> Datacom were offering the Peoplesoft payroll system.
    >> Owned by Oracle.

    >
    > That explains why it worked so well then. Larry didn't get to be that rich
    > by offering shoddy products.
    >


    Datacom offered it for the new tender, not their old system.
     
    victor, Feb 5, 2013
    #30
  11. nospam

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Somewhere on teh intarwebs victor wrote:
    > On 6/02/2013 2:12 a.m., ~misfit~ wrote:
    >> Somewhere on teh intarwebs victor wrote:

    >
    >>> Datacom were offering the Peoplesoft payroll system.
    >>> Owned by Oracle.

    >>
    >> That explains why it worked so well then. Larry didn't get to be
    >> that rich by offering shoddy products.
    >>

    >
    > Datacom offered it for the new tender, not their old system.


    Thanks.
    --
    /Shaun.

    "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
    cozy little classification in the DSM."
    David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
     
    ~misfit~, Feb 7, 2013
    #31
  12. On Feb 6, 11:36 am, victor <> wrote:
    > On 6/02/2013 2:12 a.m., ~misfit~ wrote:
    >
    > > Somewhere on teh intarwebs victor wrote:
    > >> Datacom were offering the Peoplesoft payroll system.
    > >> Owned by Oracle.

    >
    > > That explains why it worked so well then. Larry didn't get to be that rich
    > > by offering shoddy products.

    >
    > Datacom offered it for the new tender, not their old system.


    I had heard this reported and I have to assume it was an error. I
    would be surprised if Datacom decided to offer a competitors product
    instead of their own. Do you have a reference?

    Datacom writes their own payroll software. Why wouldn't they sell the
    MoE systems successor - the flash new payroll system they wrote only a
    few years ago?
     
    David Goodwin, Feb 7, 2013
    #32
  13. nospam

    victor Guest

    On 7/02/2013 6:51 p.m., David Goodwin wrote:
    > On Feb 6, 11:36 am, victor <> wrote:
    >> On 6/02/2013 2:12 a.m., ~misfit~ wrote:
    >>
    >>> Somewhere on teh intarwebs victor wrote:
    >>>> Datacom were offering the Peoplesoft payroll system.
    >>>> Owned by Oracle.

    >>
    >>> That explains why it worked so well then. Larry didn't get to be that rich
    >>> by offering shoddy products.

    >>
    >> Datacom offered it for the new tender, not their old system.

    >
    > I had heard this reported and I have to assume it was an error. I
    > would be surprised if Datacom decided to offer a competitors product
    > instead of their own. Do you have a reference?
    >
    > Datacom writes their own payroll software. Why wouldn't they sell the
    > MoE systems successor - the flash new payroll system they wrote only a
    > few years ago?
    >


    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/8256637/Ongoing-friction-revealed-in-Novopay-fiasco
    "... according to briefing documents, emails and memos released on
    Friday under the Official Information Act."

    "TIMELINE . . .

    In 2004 the ministry requested tenders for a new schools payroll
    provider after a 2003 review of operations found the current provider
    Datacom posed a high risk.

    The contract was given to Talent2 in 2005. An independent review the
    same year found Datacom's payroll had been upgraded and was no longer
    "high risk", so plans were scrapped.

    Tenders were requested again in 2007 when Datacom announced it would not
    be maintaining its payroll after 2011.

    Eleven tenders were received for the $30 million contract including
    Datacom which proposed the Peoplesoft payroll, and Talent2, which
    proposed its own Novopay system and subsequently took the
    taxpayer-funded contract in 2008."
     
    victor, Feb 7, 2013
    #33
  14. nospam

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Somewhere on teh intarwebs victor wrote:
    > On 7/02/2013 6:51 p.m., David Goodwin wrote:
    >> On Feb 6, 11:36 am, victor <> wrote:
    >>> On 6/02/2013 2:12 a.m., ~misfit~ wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Somewhere on teh intarwebs victor wrote:
    >>>>> Datacom were offering the Peoplesoft payroll system.
    >>>>> Owned by Oracle.
    >>>
    >>>> That explains why it worked so well then. Larry didn't get to be
    >>>> that rich by offering shoddy products.
    >>>
    >>> Datacom offered it for the new tender, not their old system.

    >>
    >> I had heard this reported and I have to assume it was an error. I
    >> would be surprised if Datacom decided to offer a competitors product
    >> instead of their own. Do you have a reference?
    >>
    >> Datacom writes their own payroll software. Why wouldn't they sell the
    >> MoE systems successor - the flash new payroll system they wrote only
    >> a few years ago?
    >>

    >
    > http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/8256637/Ongoing-friction-revealed-in-Novopay-fiasco
    > "... according to briefing documents, emails and memos released on
    > Friday under the Official Information Act."
    >
    > "TIMELINE . . .
    >
    > In 2004 the ministry requested tenders for a new schools payroll
    > provider after a 2003 review of operations found the current provider
    > Datacom posed a high risk.
    >
    > The contract was given to Talent2 in 2005. An independent review the
    > same year found Datacom's payroll had been upgraded and was no longer
    > "high risk", so plans were scrapped.
    >
    > Tenders were requested again in 2007 when Datacom announced it would
    > not be maintaining its payroll after 2011.
    >
    > Eleven tenders were received for the $30 million contract including
    > Datacom which proposed the Peoplesoft payroll, and Talent2, which
    > proposed its own Novopay system and subsequently took the
    > taxpayer-funded contract in 2008."


    Thanks for that. So it's going to cost $100 million (minister, on news a few
    days ago) to fix a $30 million system? Crazy!
    --
    /Shaun.

    "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
    cozy little classification in the DSM."
    David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
     
    ~misfit~, Feb 8, 2013
    #34
  15. nospam

    JohnO Guest

    On Monday, 4 February 2013 21:55:19 UTC+13, EMB wrote:
    > On 4/02/2013 4:08 p.m., JohnO wrote:
    >
    > > On Monday, 4 February 2013 13:15:33 UTC+13, wrote:

    >
    > >> On Saturday, 2 February 2013 17:46:45 UTC+13, geoff wrote:

    >
    > >>

    >
    > >> [snip]

    >
    > >>

    >
    > >>> I'd like to see which ministers have an interest in, or

    >
    > >>

    >
    > >>> croinies in, Talent(less)3.

    >
    > >>

    >
    > >>

    >
    > >>

    >
    > >> Ask Chris Carter, who signed off on the deal in 2008 as one of his acts as Minister of Education, and the Secretary of Education, Karen Sewell.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > Carter's partner is/was a school principal. How ironic.

    >
    > >

    >
    > I guess Carter's fucking him at work and at home. ;-)


    Now now!

    Last I heard Carter had weedled his way into a UN job and got posted to Afghanistan. Be nasty if he fell into the hands of the Taliban - those chappies are a bit on the homophobic side.
     
    JohnO, Feb 8, 2013
    #35
  16. On Feb 8, 3:19 pm, "~misfit~" <> wrote:
    > Somewhere on teh intarwebs victor wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On 7/02/2013 6:51 p.m., David Goodwin wrote:
    > >> On Feb 6, 11:36 am, victor <> wrote:
    > >>> On 6/02/2013 2:12 a.m., ~misfit~ wrote:

    >
    > >>>> Somewhere on teh intarwebs victor wrote:
    > >>>>> Datacom were offering the Peoplesoft payroll system.
    > >>>>> Owned by Oracle.

    >
    > >>>> That explains why it worked so well then. Larry didn't get to be
    > >>>> that rich by offering shoddy products.

    >
    > >>> Datacom offered it for the new tender, not their old system.

    >
    > >> I had heard this reported and I have to assume it was an error. I
    > >> would be surprised if Datacom decided to offer a competitors product
    > >> instead of their own. Do you have a reference?

    >
    > >> Datacom writes their own payroll software. Why wouldn't they sell the
    > >> MoE systems successor - the flash new payroll system they wrote only
    > >> a few years ago?

    >
    > >http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/8256637/Ongoing-friction-re...
    > > "... according to briefing documents, emails and memos released on
    > > Friday under the Official Information Act."

    >
    > > "TIMELINE . . .

    >
    > > In 2004 the ministry requested tenders for a new schools payroll
    > > provider after a 2003 review of operations found the current provider
    > > Datacom posed a high risk.

    >
    > > The contract was given to Talent2 in 2005. An independent review the
    > > same year found Datacom's payroll had been upgraded and was no longer
    > > "high risk", so plans were scrapped.

    >
    > > Tenders were requested again in 2007 when Datacom announced it would
    > > not be maintaining its payroll after 2011.

    >
    > > Eleven tenders were received for the $30 million contract including
    > > Datacom which proposed the Peoplesoft payroll, and Talent2, which
    > > proposed its own Novopay system and subsequently took the
    > > taxpayer-funded contract in 2008."

    >
    > Thanks for that. So it's going to cost $100 million (minister, on news a few
    > days ago) to fix a $30 million system? Crazy!


    I believe the $100m covered implementing and operating the system for
    the next 10 years or something. Actually getting the system running
    properly is separate (but I'd hope it comes out of the $30m
    implementation cost).
     
    David Goodwin, Feb 9, 2013
    #36
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