what is the deal with nonopay

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by nospam, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. nospam

    nospam Guest

    Anyone know what is the deal with Novopay?

    I heard Marcus Lush going crazy on Radio Live yesterday expressing his
    frustration at not understanding why they can't just "fix" the Novopay
    problems. I am equally frustrated at the huge lack of details on what
    exactly the problem is with Novopay. Apparently the problem is NOT
    software bugs. It is more to do with the complexity of the system and
    the fact that the people using it don't know how to use it properly.

    Presumably the Govt / Ministry agreed to and approved the basic design
    and functionality of the system. If it has the functionality they
    asked for and signed off on then they have only themselves to blame if
    it doesn't do the job adequately. If it does have the functionality
    required then they should put more resources into teaching people to
    use it properly.

    There is a large amount of publicity about the Novopay problems and
    the country deserves a proper explanation of what exactly is the cause
    of the errors.
    nospam, Feb 1, 2013
    #1
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  2. nospam

    Gib Bogle Guest

    On 2/02/2013 11:27 a.m., nospam wrote:
    >
    > Anyone know what is the deal with Novopay?
    >
    > I heard Marcus Lush going crazy on Radio Live yesterday expressing his
    > frustration at not understanding why they can't just "fix" the Novopay
    > problems. I am equally frustrated at the huge lack of details on what
    > exactly the problem is with Novopay. Apparently the problem is NOT
    > software bugs. It is more to do with the complexity of the system and
    > the fact that the people using it don't know how to use it properly.
    >
    > Presumably the Govt / Ministry agreed to and approved the basic design
    > and functionality of the system. If it has the functionality they
    > asked for and signed off on then they have only themselves to blame if
    > it doesn't do the job adequately. If it does have the functionality
    > required then they should put more resources into teaching people to
    > use it properly.
    >
    > There is a large amount of publicity about the Novopay problems and
    > the country deserves a proper explanation of what exactly is the cause
    > of the errors.
    >


    According to the radio news this morning, the problem is that the online
    data entry system is unfriendly, and many schools have resorted to
    sending info by email. No doubt this allows many errors to be
    introduced when the info is manually entered by some low-paid peons
    (maybe in India).
    Gib Bogle, Feb 1, 2013
    #2
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  3. nospam

    Me Guest

    On 2/02/2013 11:27 a.m., nospam wrote:
    >
    > Apparently the problem is NOT
    > software bugs. It is more to do with the complexity of the system and
    > the fact that the people using it don't know how to use it properly.
    >


    That scenario /is/ a software bug.
    That's why /good/ software companies employ experts to design human
    interface solutions.
    Me, Feb 1, 2013
    #3
  4. nospam

    bugalugs Guest

    On 2/02/2013 12:51 p.m., Crash McBash wrote:
    > On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 11:27:29 +1300, nospam <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> Anyone know what is the deal with Novopay?
    >>
    >> I heard Marcus Lush going crazy on Radio Live yesterday expressing his
    >> frustration at not understanding why they can't just "fix" the Novopay
    >> problems. I am equally frustrated at the huge lack of details on what
    >> exactly the problem is with Novopay. Apparently the problem is NOT
    >> software bugs. It is more to do with the complexity of the system and
    >> the fact that the people using it don't know how to use it properly.
    >>
    >> Presumably the Govt / Ministry agreed to and approved the basic design
    >> and functionality of the system. If it has the functionality they
    >> asked for and signed off on then they have only themselves to blame if
    >> it doesn't do the job adequately. If it does have the functionality
    >> required then they should put more resources into teaching people to
    >> use it properly.
    >>
    >> There is a large amount of publicity about the Novopay problems and
    >> the country deserves a proper explanation of what exactly is the cause
    >> of the errors.

    >
    > Yep - the publicity has been all about stuff-ups and nothing about
    > what caused them or why they are continuing to happen.
    >

    You'll probably find that a large part of the problem is "garbage in--
    garbage out" There are hundreds and hundreds of people doing the input
    and a great many of them are not too sure what the hell they are doing.

    --
    Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
    bugalugs, Feb 2, 2013
    #4
  5. On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 11:27:29 +1300, nospam <> wrote:

    >
    >Anyone know what is the deal with Novopay?
    >
    >I heard Marcus Lush going crazy on Radio Live yesterday expressing his
    >frustration at not understanding why they can't just "fix" the Novopay
    >problems. I am equally frustrated at the huge lack of details on what
    >exactly the problem is with Novopay. Apparently the problem is NOT
    >software bugs. It is more to do with the complexity of the system and
    >the fact that the people using it don't know how to use it properly.
    >
    >Presumably the Govt / Ministry agreed to and approved the basic design
    >and functionality of the system. If it has the functionality they
    >asked for and signed off on then they have only themselves to blame if
    >it doesn't do the job adequately. If it does have the functionality
    >required then they should put more resources into teaching people to
    >use it properly.
    >
    >There is a large amount of publicity about the Novopay problems and
    >the country deserves a proper explanation of what exactly is the cause
    >of the errors.



    Its no Deal its a utter Flop like most IT projects over the years, MP's
    don't have a clue about IT..
    Frank Williams, Feb 2, 2013
    #5
  6. nospam

    Gib Bogle Guest

    On 2/02/2013 2:50 p.m., Frank Williams wrote:
    > On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 11:27:29 +1300, nospam <> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> Anyone know what is the deal with Novopay?
    >>
    >> I heard Marcus Lush going crazy on Radio Live yesterday expressing his
    >> frustration at not understanding why they can't just "fix" the Novopay
    >> problems. I am equally frustrated at the huge lack of details on what
    >> exactly the problem is with Novopay. Apparently the problem is NOT
    >> software bugs. It is more to do with the complexity of the system and
    >> the fact that the people using it don't know how to use it properly.
    >>
    >> Presumably the Govt / Ministry agreed to and approved the basic design
    >> and functionality of the system. If it has the functionality they
    >> asked for and signed off on then they have only themselves to blame if
    >> it doesn't do the job adequately. If it does have the functionality
    >> required then they should put more resources into teaching people to
    >> use it properly.
    >>
    >> There is a large amount of publicity about the Novopay problems and
    >> the country deserves a proper explanation of what exactly is the cause
    >> of the errors.

    >
    >
    > Its no Deal its a utter Flop like most IT projects over the years, MP's
    > don't have a clue about IT..
    >


    You don't have a clue about the English language. The apostrophe
    denotes possession.
    Gib Bogle, Feb 2, 2013
    #6
  7. nospam

    nospam Guest

    On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 11:27:29 +1300, nospam <>
    wrote:

    >
    >Anyone know what is the deal with Novopay?
    >


    Just rang TVNZ news and they said that the Government won't say what's
    wrong with the system until they've finished their enquiry. Maybe
    they could ask the schools what's wrong with it.
    nospam, Feb 2, 2013
    #7
  8. On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:58:08 +1300, Gib Bogle <>
    wrote:

    >On 2/02/2013 2:50 p.m., Frank Williams wrote:
    >> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 11:27:29 +1300, nospam <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>> Anyone know what is the deal with Novopay?
    >>>
    >>> I heard Marcus Lush going crazy on Radio Live yesterday expressing his
    >>> frustration at not understanding why they can't just "fix" the Novopay
    >>> problems. I am equally frustrated at the huge lack of details on what
    >>> exactly the problem is with Novopay. Apparently the problem is NOT
    >>> software bugs. It is more to do with the complexity of the system and
    >>> the fact that the people using it don't know how to use it properly.
    >>>
    >>> Presumably the Govt / Ministry agreed to and approved the basic design
    >>> and functionality of the system. If it has the functionality they
    >>> asked for and signed off on then they have only themselves to blame if
    >>> it doesn't do the job adequately. If it does have the functionality
    >>> required then they should put more resources into teaching people to
    >>> use it properly.
    >>>
    >>> There is a large amount of publicity about the Novopay problems and
    >>> the country deserves a proper explanation of what exactly is the cause
    >>> of the errors.

    >>
    >>
    >> Its no Deal its a utter Flop like most IT projects over the years, MP's
    >> don't have a clue about IT..
    >>

    >
    >You don't have a clue about the English language. The apostrophe
    >denotes possession.



    Tell me what has that do with nz.comp these nasty little people that
    like to pick on grammar and spelling, cant they post a thing of value or
    are they just very hollow, or just a empty vessel that makes the most
    noise..?
    Frank Williams, Feb 2, 2013
    #8
  9. nospam

    nospam Guest

    On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 18:41:28 +1300, Frank Williams
    <> wrote:

    >On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:58:08 +1300, Gib Bogle <>
    >>>
    >>> Its no Deal its a utter Flop like most IT projects over the years, MP's
    >>> don't have a clue about IT..
    >>>

    >>
    >>You don't have a clue about the English language. The apostrophe
    >>denotes possession.

    >
    >
    >Tell me what has that do with nz.comp these nasty little people that
    >like to pick on grammar and spelling, cant they post a thing of value or
    >are they just very hollow, or just a empty vessel that makes the most
    >noise..?


    You're the one that makes noise. Your comment was completely
    worthless and got what it deserved.
    nospam, Feb 2, 2013
    #9
  10. On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 18:56:18 +1300, nospam <> wrote:

    >On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 18:41:28 +1300, Frank Williams
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:58:08 +1300, Gib Bogle <>
    >>>>
    >>>> Its no Deal its a utter Flop like most IT projects over the years, MP's
    >>>> don't have a clue about IT..
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>You don't have a clue about the English language. The apostrophe
    >>>denotes possession.

    >>
    >>
    >>Tell me what has that do with nz.comp these nasty little people that
    >>like to pick on grammar and spelling, cant they post a thing of value or
    >>are they just very hollow, or just a empty vessel that makes the most
    >>noise..?

    >
    >You're the one that makes noise. Your comment was completely
    >worthless and got what it deserved.



    Seems like you are another one with a Empty head, no Wonder why NZ has
    gone to the Dogs..
    Frank Williams, Feb 2, 2013
    #10
  11. nospam

    nospam Guest

    Found this article
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/7984916/Novopay-boss-infuriates-teachers

    Teachers say the system doesn't work

    <quote> "It was erroring all the time, postings wouldn't validate, it
    would dump you out, and nothing would work so we had to resort to
    paper, which then overloaded the poor people </>

    and they reject Talent2 boss assertion that teachers' lack of training
    is causing the errors.


    >
    >
    >On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 11:27:29 +1300, nospam <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>Anyone know what is the deal with Novopay?
    >>

    >
    >Just rang TVNZ news and they said that the Government won't say what's
    >wrong with the system until they've finished their enquiry. Maybe
    >they could ask the schools what's wrong with it.
    nospam, Feb 2, 2013
    #11
  12. nospam

    nospam Guest

    And looking at this article
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/7980254/Talent2-stands-behind-Novopay-system

    and reading the comments posted by people like the President of the
    School Executive Officers' Association Chris Johnston

    1. the system doesn't work well enough to use the online data entry
    2. even if it worked, it's hard to use and it doesn't process the data
    correctly
    3. some schools weren't given any training
    4. the payroll is complicated with many different employee situations/
    categories

    So how come in all the many media reports about this there's nothing
    said about the need for Talent2 to change the software so that it
    works reliably and accurately?
    nospam, Feb 2, 2013
    #12
  13. nospam

    EMB Guest

    On 2/02/2013 2:50 p.m., Frank Williams wrote:

    > Its no Deal its a utter Flop like most IT projects over the years, MP's
    > don't have a clue about IT..
    >

    They know more about IT (and the English language) than you do Woger.
    EMB, Feb 2, 2013
    #13
  14. nospam

    victor Guest

    On 2/02/2013 11:56 p.m., nospam wrote:
    >
    > Found this article
    > http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/7984916/Novopay-boss-infuriates-teachers
    >
    > Teachers say the system doesn't work
    >
    > <quote> "It was erroring all the time, postings wouldn't validate, it
    > would dump you out, and nothing would work so we had to resort to
    > paper, which then overloaded the poor people </>
    >
    > and they reject Talent2 boss assertion that teachers' lack of training
    > is causing the errors.
    >
    >
    >>
    >>
    >> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 11:27:29 +1300, nospam <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>> Anyone know what is the deal with Novopay?
    >>>

    >>
    >> Just rang TVNZ news and they said that the Government won't say what's
    >> wrong with the system until they've finished their enquiry. Maybe
    >> they could ask the schools what's wrong with it.


    Just guessing.
    The online input system probably works but has faults that need
    correcting then testing then rolling out and user training.
    The process of attempting to enter info then giving up and phoning or
    faxing info to a limited number of new call centre staff probably
    introduces more errors.
    It was probably tested but without the impact of the manual entry
    contingency, the year end, the politics etc factored in.
    After missing milestones which may be due to the goalposts shifting,
    ultimatums may have been issued and penalties applied which gave an
    incentive to premature full deployment.
    Also running the old system and the new system in trial means less staff
    available for both.
    Most likely is they will stay the course. The Alesco platform is widely
    used and the same factors may have had a similar impact on any other
    outsourcing payroll service provider.
    victor, Feb 2, 2013
    #14
  15. nospam

    nospam Guest

    On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 14:56:57 +1300, Crash McBash
    <> wrote:

    >I would also hope this inquiry would look into why Talent2 was chosen
    >over the previous system (supplied by Datacom IIRC). Datacom has been
    >around since the 60s, and operating payroll systems for much of that
    >time. It is also 100% NZ-owned. There must be a story behind taking
    >this contract away from Datacom to Talent2.


    The Ministry of Education wanted a system where schools could enter
    their data online themselves instead of faxing, phoning or emailing in
    the data for the data center to enter - saves money. Datacom
    tendered for it but Talent2 got the job, most likely coz they were
    cheaper and the National Govt was cost cutting.

    This is interesting
    http://www.minedu.govt.nz/~/media/M...Correspondence/MemoNovopayBriefing22Nov12.pdf
    nospam, Feb 3, 2013
    #15
  16. nospam

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Somewhere on teh intarwebs nospam wrote:
    > And looking at this article
    > http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/7980254/Talent2-stands-behind-Novopay-system
    >
    > and reading the comments posted by people like the President of the
    > School Executive Officers' Association Chris Johnston
    >
    > 1. the system doesn't work well enough to use the online data entry
    > 2. even if it worked, it's hard to use and it doesn't process the data
    > correctly
    > 3. some schools weren't given any training
    > 4. the payroll is complicated with many different employee situations/
    > categories
    >
    > So how come in all the many media reports about this there's nothing
    > said about the need for Talent2 to change the software so that it
    > works reliably and accurately?


    Beacause they supplied what they were paid for? The government really cut
    back on their spend on teachers payrolls, taking the lowest tender knowing
    that, for that price they couldn't supply more than a very baic system?

    Informed guesswork. <shrug>
    --
    /Shaun.

    "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
    cozy little classification in the DSM."
    David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
    ~misfit~, Feb 3, 2013
    #16
  17. nospam

    EMB Guest

    On 3/02/2013 2:56 p.m., Crash McBash wrote:

    >
    > I would also hope this inquiry would look into why Talent2 was chosen
    > over the previous system (supplied by Datacom IIRC). Datacom has been
    > around since the 60s, and operating payroll systems for much of that
    > time. It is also 100% NZ-owned. There must be a story behind taking
    > this contract away from Datacom to Talent2.
    >

    We have a significant relationship with Datacom. They do a good job
    too. However Datacom can in no way described as cheap - in fact I have
    trouble not describing them as a pack of thieving fsckers. In light of
    this we will not be doing business with them much beyond the short term,
    despite a 20 year history of dealing with them.

    I expect that they treated MoE in a similar manner and got a similar
    outcome.
    EMB, Feb 3, 2013
    #17
  18. nospam

    nospam Guest

    On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 17:56:18 +1300, "~misfit~"
    <> wrote:

    >> So how come in all the many media reports about this there's nothing
    >> said about the need for Talent2 to change the software so that it
    >> works reliably and accurately?

    >
    >Beacause they supplied what they were paid for? The government really cut
    >back on their spend on teachers payrolls, taking the lowest tender knowing
    >that, for that price they couldn't supply more than a very baic system?


    In my other post I quoted

    <quote> "It was erroring all the time, postings wouldn't validate, it
    would dump you out, and nothing would work so we had to resort to
    paper, which then overloaded the poor people </>

    The online data entry didn't work properly to start with, how well
    it's working now is unknown but presumably some of the problems have
    been fixed. When data entry did actually work, the system didn't
    process it correctly a lot of the time.

    My frustration is that the media e.g. John Campbell, give lots of
    reports about how bad the system is and how much teachers hate it but
    give no details on what's actually wrong with. All the media has to
    do is ask the schools what the problems are and then we wouldn't all
    be left in the dark.

    How in the world could it take two years to fix? If the
    infrastructure has glitches it should take a few weeks at most to fix.
    If the problem is the "10000 variables" as described here

    http://www.minedu.govt.nz/~/media/M...Correspondence/MemoNovopayBriefing22Nov12.pdf

    then they ought to be able to identify the people whose pay needs to
    be handled "manually" for the time being, instead of getting lots of
    pay errors.

    I'd like to know whose job it was to collect the information relating
    to the "10000 variables" in the original tender/ specification. I'm
    guessing it was these details that lead to Talent2 asking for more
    money. If this was a grey area in the spec. then I would think that
    Talent2 have a case for more money. But who knows.

    Anyway, Stephen Joyce has already admitted there were problems with
    the spec. and that all parties are partly at fault.
    nospam, Feb 3, 2013
    #18
  19. nospam

    Titus G Guest

    Titus G, Feb 3, 2013
    #19
  20. nospam

    victor Guest

    On 3/02/2013 8:37 p.m., Allistar wrote:
    > Me wrote:
    >
    >> On 2/02/2013 11:27 a.m., nospam wrote:
    >>>
    >>> Apparently the problem is NOT
    >>> software bugs. It is more to do with the complexity of the system and
    >>> the fact that the people using it don't know how to use it properly.
    >>>

    >>
    >> That scenario /is/ a software bug.
    >> That's why /good/ software companies employ experts to design human
    >> interface solutions.

    >
    > Exactly. Any software that allows this sort of issue to develop is either
    > poorly designed or poorly implemented, and probably both.
    >


    They aren't selling software.
    victor, Feb 3, 2013
    #20
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