What does your monitor show you?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Mark², Apr 4, 2007.

  1. Mark²

    Mark² Guest

    I'm curious to discover what people's monitors are registering/not
    registering in terms of shadow details and highlight details.

    Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the following:

    Dark image sample:
    http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original
    Light image sample:
    http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original

    This becomes significant when discussing some aspets of photos that are
    shared here.

    Thanks for you input...and...no cheating! :)

    Mark

    --
    Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
    www.pbase.com/markuson
     
    Mark², Apr 4, 2007
    #1
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  2. Mark²

    Justin C Guest

    In article <LvBQh.90622$>,
    "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:

    > I'm curious to discover what people's monitors are registering/not
    > registering in terms of shadow details and highlight details.
    >
    > Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the following:
    >
    > Dark image sample:
    > http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original


    That was easy! No problem at all.


    > Light image sample:
    > http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original


    At first I couldn't see anything in this, while I was waiting for PS to
    start up I started discerning something but not enough to read it.
    However I adjust my screen, I can' read that. Only PS lets me adjust it
    enough to read.

    Using a MBP, default settings.
     
    Justin C, Apr 4, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 16:34:06 -0700, in rec.photo.digital "Mark²"
    <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:

    >I'm curious to discover what people's monitors are registering/not
    >registering in terms of shadow details and highlight details.
    >
    >Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the following:
    >
    >Dark image sample:
    >http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original
    >Light image sample:
    >http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original
    >
    >This becomes significant when discussing some aspets of photos that are
    >shared here.
    >
    >Thanks for you input...and...no cheating! :)


    The first question to ask is what you want us to view this in as most all
    web browsers are not color managed. Do you want them viewed in one's
    browser or dl'd and viewed in a color managed app for your course of
    discussion?
    --
    Ed Ruf ()
    http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
     
    Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!), Apr 4, 2007
    #3
  4. Mark²

    Mark² Guest

    Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) wrote:
    > On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 16:34:06 -0700, in rec.photo.digital "Mark²"
    > <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:
    >
    >> I'm curious to discover what people's monitors are registering/not
    >> registering in terms of shadow details and highlight details.
    >>
    >> Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the
    >> following:
    >>
    >> Dark image sample:
    >> http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original
    >> Light image sample:
    >> http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original
    >>
    >> This becomes significant when discussing some aspets of photos that
    >> are shared here.
    >>
    >> Thanks for you input...and...no cheating! :)

    >
    > The first question to ask is what you want us to view this in as most
    > all web browsers are not color managed. Do you want them viewed in
    > one's browser or dl'd and viewed in a color managed app for your
    > course of discussion?


    I'm interested in both, but the relevance for shared image viewing revolves
    around browsers...so that's the first question. While it's true that most
    browsers aren't color-managed specifically, a calibrated monitor will also
    have a positive impact on web-viewing color/brightness/etc. as well.

    In any event... All three of my calibrated monitors see the text within
    color-aware apps...but also in I.E. and Firefox.

    Any comments are welcome. I'm really trying to get a feel for what people
    are seeing...or not seeing.

    --
    Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
    www.pbase.com/markuson
     
    Mark², Apr 4, 2007
    #4
  5. Mark²

    frederick Guest

    Mark² wrote:

    > In any event... All three of my calibrated monitors see the text within
    > color-aware apps...but also in I.E. and Firefox.
    >

    Hang on...
    I can't read the text in the light image when viewing in a non
    colour-aware application. It has sRGB embedded. If I open it in
    photoshop and allow PS to convert the image from sRGB to aRGB, then I
    can see it.
    But I'm struggling to see how this relates to anything useful, as that's
    surely just more to do with the way colour conversion engine used by
    Adobe in PS works, than any measurement of monitor qualities.
     
    frederick, Apr 4, 2007
    #5
  6. "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:
    > I'm curious to discover what people's monitors are registering/not
    > registering in terms of shadow details and highlight details.
    >
    > Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the following:
    >
    > Dark image sample:
    > http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original
    > Light image sample:
    > http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original
    >
    > This becomes significant when discussing some aspets of photos that are
    > shared here.
    >
    > Thanks for you input...and...no cheating! :)


    Hehe. Nasty test. Thanks for putting those up: it got me thinking about how
    to test my printer.

    Without cheating, I can't see either.

    With cheating (looking at the values), I don't see any problem with not
    being able to see either.

    Rambling follows, but feel free to flame or comment.

    In Zone System terms, anything under 10% luminosity is pure black (your
    black image is 5%), and anything over 90% luminosity is pure white (your
    light image is 99%).

    (The Zone System divides the world into nine Zones, zones I to IX, with zone
    V being 18% gray. This maps directly onto luminosity percentages in a gamma
    correct image as 10% to 90% with 50% being 18% gray. Very convenient. Less
    convenient is using a 5 (or is it 7?) stop gray scale recommended for
    digital imaging by this guy's books: http://www.spotmetering.com/)

    Getting 9 zones (10% to 90% luminosity in 10% steps*, Doh!) on a print is
    the holy grail in the Zone System, and expecting more than that is a tad
    unreasonable. (I need to make test patterns with various numbers of zones to
    see how well my printers do.)

    *: Looking at things this way, the +/- 5% band around each of the 10% to 90%
    points are the nine zones of the Zone System. Well, not really. A region of
    an image that you intend to place on a given zone should have an average
    luminosity of that zone.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Apr 4, 2007
    #6
  7. Mark²

    frederick Guest

    frederick wrote:
    > Mark² wrote:
    >
    >> In any event... All three of my calibrated monitors see the text
    >> within color-aware apps...but also in I.E. and Firefox.
    >>

    > Hang on...
    > I can't read the text in the light image when viewing in a non
    > colour-aware application. It has sRGB embedded. If I open it in
    > photoshop and allow PS to convert the image from sRGB to aRGB, then I
    > can see it.
    > But I'm struggling to see how this relates to anything useful, as that's
    > surely just more to do with the way colour conversion engine used by
    > Adobe in PS works, than any measurement of monitor qualities.


    No, I take that back. Although I could read it in PS, and thought that
    I couldn't read it in my web browser, if I looked more closely then I
    could read it just as well in my web browser. The difficulty reading it
    was more to do with my eyes than monitor or application used to view
    it. You've just got to look closely.
    Incidentally, the colour conversion from sRGB to aRGB results in the
    same displayed value for the text - 253/253/253.
     
    frederick, Apr 4, 2007
    #7
  8. "Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!)" <> wrote:
    > On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 16:34:06 -0700, in rec.photo.digital "Mark²"
    > <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:


    >>Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the following:
    >>
    >>Dark image sample:
    >>http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original
    >>Light image sample:
    >>http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original

    >
    > The first question to ask is what you want us to view this in as most all
    > web browsers are not color managed. Do you want them viewed in one's
    > browser or dl'd and viewed in a color managed app for your course of
    > discussion?


    Color management shouldn't make a difference: these are B&W images. What
    should make a difference is gamma (there used to be a Mac/peecee difference
    here).

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Apr 4, 2007
    #8
  9. Mark²

    Mark² Guest

    David J. Littleboy wrote:
    > "Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!)" <> wrote:
    >> On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 16:34:06 -0700, in rec.photo.digital "Mark²"
    >> <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:

    >
    >>> Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the
    >>> following: Dark image sample:
    >>> http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original
    >>> Light image sample:
    >>> http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original

    >>
    >> The first question to ask is what you want us to view this in as
    >> most all web browsers are not color managed. Do you want them viewed
    >> in one's browser or dl'd and viewed in a color managed app for your
    >> course of discussion?

    >
    > Color management shouldn't make a difference: these are B&W images.
    > What should make a difference is gamma (there used to be a Mac/peecee
    > difference here).
    >
    > David J. Littleboy
    > Tokyo, Japan


    Calibrating a monitor should take contrast and brightness into account,
    though, which will definitely effect this image.
    Issues have come up where some people are seeing no shadow detail in
    someone's images...while others do. This is why I'm curious to see how
    sensitive people's monitors are...

    --
    Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
    www.pbase.com/markuson
     
    Mark², Apr 4, 2007
    #9
  10. Mark²

    Mark² Guest

    David J. Littleboy wrote:
    > "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:
    >> I'm curious to discover what people's monitors are registering/not
    >> registering in terms of shadow details and highlight details.
    >>
    >> Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the
    >> following: Dark image sample:
    >> http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original
    >> Light image sample:
    >> http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original
    >>
    >> This becomes significant when discussing some aspets of photos that
    >> are shared here.
    >>
    >> Thanks for you input...and...no cheating! :)

    >
    > Hehe. Nasty test. Thanks for putting those up: it got me thinking
    > about how to test my printer.
    >
    > Without cheating, I can't see either.
    >
    > With cheating (looking at the values), I don't see any problem with
    > not being able to see either.
    >
    > Rambling follows, but feel free to flame or comment.
    >
    > In Zone System terms, anything under 10% luminosity is pure black
    > (your black image is 5%), and anything over 90% luminosity is pure
    > white (your light image is 99%).
    >
    > (The Zone System divides the world into nine Zones, zones I to IX,
    > with zone V being 18% gray. This maps directly onto luminosity
    > percentages in a gamma correct image as 10% to 90% with 50% being 18%
    > gray. Very convenient. Less convenient is using a 5 (or is it 7?)
    > stop gray scale recommended for digital imaging by this guy's books:
    > http://www.spotmetering.com/)
    > Getting 9 zones (10% to 90% luminosity in 10% steps*, Doh!) on a
    > print is the holy grail in the Zone System, and expecting more than
    > that is a tad unreasonable. (I need to make test patterns with
    > various numbers of zones to see how well my printers do.)
    >
    > *: Looking at things this way, the +/- 5% band around each of the 10%
    > to 90% points are the nine zones of the Zone System. Well, not
    > really. A region of an image that you intend to place on a given zone
    > should have an average luminosity of that zone.
    >
    > David J. Littleboy
    > Tokyo, Japan


    Hehe... I should have expected you to start throwing numbers around. :) I
    always enjoy you input.
    It's just interesting to me...since some claim other's posted images either
    lack...or include detail that others do/don't see. Obviously there will be
    wide ranging differences via internet viewing, since most monitors aren't
    calibrated at all...but for those who do calibrate...it's an interesting
    exercise.

    --
    Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
    www.pbase.com/markuson
     
    Mark², Apr 4, 2007
    #10
  11. Mark²

    Mark² Guest

    Justin C wrote:
    > In article <LvBQh.90622$>,
    > "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:
    >
    >> I'm curious to discover what people's monitors are registering/not
    >> registering in terms of shadow details and highlight details.
    >>
    >> Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the
    >> following:
    >>
    >> Dark image sample:
    >> http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original

    >
    > That was easy! No problem at all.


    Here's a tougher one:
    http://upload.pbase.com/image/76631423/original

    >> Light image sample:
    >> http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original

    >
    > At first I couldn't see anything in this, while I was waiting for PS
    > to start up I started discerning something but not enough to read it.
    > However I adjust my screen, I can' read that. Only PS lets me adjust
    > it enough to read.
    >
    > Using a MBP, default settings.


    I can only barely read the white, but I can read it in both Photoshop and on
    the web (Firefox).

    Thanks for responding.

    --
    Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
    www.pbase.com/markuson
     
    Mark², Apr 4, 2007
    #11
  12. Mark²

    ray Guest

    On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:34:06 -0700, Mark² wrote:

    > I'm curious to discover what people's monitors are registering/not
    > registering in terms of shadow details and highlight details.
    >
    > Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the following:
    >
    > Dark image sample:
    > http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original
    > Light image sample:
    > http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original
    >
    > This becomes significant when discussing some aspets of photos that are
    > shared here.
    >
    > Thanks for you input...and...no cheating! :)
    >
    > Mark


    On the first one I see "if you can't read this your monitor needs
    adjusting" or whatever it was - very readable when I set the monitor
    properly. Second one - I see nothing.
     
    ray, Apr 4, 2007
    #12
  13. "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:
    > David J. Littleboy wrote:
    >> "Ed Ruf wrote:
    >>> "Mark²" wrote:

    >>
    >>>> Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the
    >>>> following: Dark image sample:
    >>>> http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original
    >>>> Light image sample:
    >>>> http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original
    >>>
    >>> The first question to ask is what you want us to view this in as
    >>> most all web browsers are not color managed. Do you want them viewed
    >>> in one's browser or dl'd and viewed in a color managed app for your
    >>> course of discussion?

    >>
    >> Color management shouldn't make a difference: these are B&W images.
    >> What should make a difference is gamma (there used to be a Mac/peecee
    >> difference here).

    >
    > Calibrating a monitor should take contrast and brightness into account,
    > though, which will definitely effect this image.


    Of course. But color management shouldn't.

    > Issues have come up where some people are seeing no shadow detail in
    > someone's images...while others do. This is why I'm curious to see how
    > sensitive people's monitors are...


    I think that this sort of testing is a good idea. My axe to grind is how to
    set up one's system relative to prints, so I was changing the subject
    somewhat. Splitting hairs that can't be split in an R2400 print doesn't make
    sense for my purposes, but is useful for web display.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Apr 4, 2007
    #13
  14. Mark²

    ray Guest

    On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:57:56 -0600, ray wrote:

    > On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:34:06 -0700, Mark² wrote:
    >
    >> I'm curious to discover what people's monitors are registering/not
    >> registering in terms of shadow details and highlight details.
    >>
    >> Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the following:
    >>
    >> Dark image sample:
    >> http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original
    >> Light image sample:
    >> http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original
    >>
    >> This becomes significant when discussing some aspets of photos that are
    >> shared here.
    >>
    >> Thanks for you input...and...no cheating! :)
    >>
    >> Mark

    >
    > On the first one I see "if you can't read this your monitor needs
    > adjusting" or whatever it was - very readable when I set the monitor
    > properly. Second one - I see nothing.


    Saving the file and playing with hilights in GIMP - I see the answer is 4.
     
    ray, Apr 4, 2007
    #14
  15. Mark²

    Mark² Guest

    ray wrote:
    > On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:57:56 -0600, ray wrote:
    >
    >> On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:34:06 -0700, Mark² wrote:
    >>
    >>> I'm curious to discover what people's monitors are registering/not
    >>> registering in terms of shadow details and highlight details.
    >>>
    >>> Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the
    >>> following:
    >>>
    >>> Dark image sample:
    >>> http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original
    >>> Light image sample:
    >>> http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original
    >>>
    >>> This becomes significant when discussing some aspets of photos that
    >>> are shared here.
    >>>
    >>> Thanks for you input...and...no cheating! :)
    >>>
    >>> Mark

    >>
    >> On the first one I see "if you can't read this your monitor needs
    >> adjusting" or whatever it was - very readable when I set the monitor
    >> properly. Second one - I see nothing.

    >
    > Saving the file and playing with hilights in GIMP - I see the answer
    > is 4.


    Cheater.
    :)

    --
    Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
    www.pbase.com/markuson
     
    Mark², Apr 4, 2007
    #15
  16. Mark²

    Jim Guest

    On 2007-04-03 19:34:06 -0400, "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number
    here)@cox..net> said:

    > I'm curious to discover what people's monitors are registering/not
    > registering in terms of shadow details and highlight details.
    >
    > Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the following:
    >
    > Dark image sample:
    > http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original
    > Light image sample:
    > http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original
    >
    > This becomes significant when discussing some aspets of photos that are
    > shared here.
    >
    > Thanks for you input...and...no cheating! :)
    >
    > Mark


    Not much..... without cheating. ... but If I bump up
    he contrast and brightness, well, I can see something.. but then I
    will need to back and recalibrate my monitor.

    --
    Jim <jen....not....home..remvdots...@....yahoo
     
    Jim, Apr 4, 2007
    #16
  17. Mark²

    Skip Guest

    "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote in message
    news:LvBQh.90622$...
    > I'm curious to discover what people's monitors are registering/not
    > registering in terms of shadow details and highlight details.
    >
    > Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the following:
    >
    > Dark image sample:
    > http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original
    > Light image sample:
    > http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original
    >
    > This becomes significant when discussing some aspets of photos that are
    > shared here.
    >
    > Thanks for you input...and...no cheating! :)
    >
    > Mark


    The dark image I could see, the light image I could not.

    --
    Skip Middleton
    www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
    www.pbase.com/skipm
     
    Skip, Apr 4, 2007
    #17
  18. Skip wrote:
    > "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote in message
    > news:LvBQh.90622$...
    >> I'm curious to discover what people's monitors are registering/not
    >> registering in terms of shadow details and highlight details.
    >>
    >> Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the following:
    >>
    >> Dark image sample:
    >> http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original
    >> Light image sample:
    >> http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original
    >>
    >> This becomes significant when discussing some aspets of photos that are
    >> shared here.
    >>
    >> Thanks for you input...and...no cheating! :)
    >>
    >> Mark

    >
    > The dark image I could see, the light image I could not.


    Same here on my laptop. (macbookpro). The third image as well as the
    white one with red type I couldn't make out, I can see from above at
    about a 70 degree angle. As Johnny used to say, "I did not know that."

    --
    john mcwilliams
     
    John McWilliams, Apr 4, 2007
    #18
  19. Mark²

    Mark² Guest

    John McWilliams wrote:
    > Skip wrote:
    >> "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote in message
    >> news:LvBQh.90622$...
    >>> I'm curious to discover what people's monitors are registering/not
    >>> registering in terms of shadow details and highlight details.
    >>>
    >>> Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the
    >>> following: Dark image sample:
    >>> http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original
    >>> Light image sample:
    >>> http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original
    >>>
    >>> This becomes significant when discussing some aspets of photos that
    >>> are shared here.
    >>>
    >>> Thanks for you input...and...no cheating! :)
    >>>
    >>> Mark

    >>
    >> The dark image I could see, the light image I could not.

    >
    > Same here on my laptop. (macbookpro). The third image as well as the
    > white one with red type I couldn't make out, I can see from above at
    > about a 70 degree angle. As Johnny used to say, "I did not know that."


    Except that there's no red type. It's light (super light) grey.
    ?

    --
    Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
    www.pbase.com/markuson
     
    Mark², Apr 4, 2007
    #19
  20. Mark²

    Bob Williams Guest

    Mark² wrote:
    > I'm curious to discover what people's monitors are registering/not
    > registering in terms of shadow details and highlight details.
    >
    > Please indicate a whether you can read the text in each of the following:
    >
    > Dark image sample:
    > http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/76619046/original
    > Light image sample:
    > http://upload.pbase.com/markuson/image/76628594/original
    >
    > This becomes significant when discussing some aspets of photos that are
    > shared here.
    >
    > Thanks for you input...and...no cheating! :)
    >
    > Mark
    >

    At first, I thought I could not see anything in either box.
    Then I turned out the lights in my office and I could read the message
    in the black box.

    I could see that there was some writing in the white box but I could not
    make out what it said. Then I opened it in PS and tweaked the levels
    ever so slightly until I could see "What is 2+2"

    Part of this may be due to my lack of visual acuity.
    I am 77 years young and one requires 4-5 times as much light at this age
    than one does at say 30 years, for the same visual acuity.

    I suspect that if I darken my screen enough to see the contents of the
    white box, I'll no longer be able to see the contents of the black box.
    I'm on the hairy edge right now.
    What the hell, I'll give it a try. What can I lose?
    Bob Williams
     
    Bob Williams, Apr 4, 2007
    #20
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