What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera coming out are?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by John Doe, Dec 28, 2003.

  1. John Doe

    John Doe Guest

    What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera
    coming out are?
     
    John Doe, Dec 28, 2003
    #1
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  2. John Doe

    james roboto Guest

    they are already out. The sd9 and sd10


    "John Doe" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera
    > coming out are?
     
    james roboto, Dec 28, 2003
    #2
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  3. John Doe

    John Doe Guest

    How about a compact point and shoot camera?
     
    John Doe, Dec 28, 2003
    #3
  4. John Doe

    james roboto Guest

    just cut the lens in half


    "John Doe" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > How about a compact point and shoot camera?
    >
     
    james roboto, Dec 28, 2003
    #4
  5. John Doe

    Tony Spadaro Guest

    Tony Spadaro, Dec 28, 2003
    #5
  6. "John Doe" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera
    > coming out are?


    Lots of speculation, that's about it. This happened...

    http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1070562816.html

    Personally I think Foveon has slowly come to release that the general public
    can't grasp the concept behind their technology as most have been very well
    conditioned to believe Bayers have full color MPs, so the 5M is quite risky.
    Rumors of Kodak linking up with Foveon have been around forever, possibly
    for a P&S. They really should've put the Pro 10M in the 14n.
     
    George Preddy, Dec 28, 2003
    #6
  7. John Doe

    PhotoMan Guest

    "james roboto" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > they are already out. The sd9 and sd10
    >


    I thought they were disposables.
     
    PhotoMan, Dec 28, 2003
    #7
  8. John Doe

    Azzz1588 Guest

    Re: What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera coming

    In article <PDuHb.2226$>, "PhotoMan"
    <> writes:

    >> they are already out. The sd9 and sd10
    >>

    >
    >I thought they were disposables.





    They are to everyone except George Preddy............................
























    "Only a Gentleman can insult me, and a true Gentleman never will..."
     
    Azzz1588, Dec 28, 2003
    #8
  9. On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:43:39 -0700, John Doe <>
    wrote:

    >What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera
    >coming out are?


    Realistically, and joking about setting a Sigma into fully automatic
    mode aside? It's possible, but who from?

    The Foveon sensor range is supposedly scalable from cellphone/PDA
    cameras right up to SLRs. So far, the only manufacturer with product
    is Sigma with the SD9 and SD10, and there are *rumours* the SD9 is out
    of production. It is entirely possible that there are other devices
    using the tech are out there but have not announced a Foveon tie-up;
    there's certainly nothing on Foveon's website. However, there is a
    VAR program getting into gear and Foveon's FAQ (Q14) states that their
    current focus is the consumer market, citing Sigma's SD9 as a
    "specialized application", so this implies a non-DSLR product in the
    near future. So yes, it's possible. But who is going to make the
    thing?

    Canon and Sony dominate the digital camera market by percentage, and
    they both make sensors for their own use and by others (some Nikons
    use Sony sensors for example), so they are unlikely to turn to Foveon.
    Fuji and Kodak also make sensors that are used by several other
    players besides their manufacturers (some Olympus cameras use Kodak),
    so we are left with three possibilities:

    One of the "also rans" is going to make a wholesale switch to Foveon.
    Someone will release a Foveon based P&S camera alongside their Bayers.
    We'll get the P&S Foveon, but it'll be by Nokia and double as a phone.

    I'm leaning toward the last one.

    Andy
     
    Andy Blanchard, Dec 28, 2003
    #9
  10. On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:55:06 +0900, "George Preddy"
    <> wrote:

    >Personally I think Foveon has slowly come to release that the general public
    >can't grasp the concept behind their technology as most have been very well
    >conditioned to believe Bayers have full color MPs, so the 5M is quite risky.
    >Rumors of Kodak linking up with Foveon have been around forever, possibly
    >for a P&S. They really should've put the Pro 10M in the 14n.


    I think that's a some what bogus line of reasoning. It's pretty much
    a given that the _typical_ P&S buyer doesn't even know what "Bayer"
    means, or even that it has something to do with digital cameras for
    that matter. Far more likely they look at the bottom line of their
    "Which Camera" magazine and see which has the highest score and number
    of megapixels at a price they can afford. That's not a DSLR, and by
    implication since the only cameras using the Foveon are the Sigma
    DSLRs, it's not a Foveon based camera - the technology doesn't even
    get to enter the equation, let alone play a significant part of it.

    I don't think Foveon's issues are with the end-user perception of the
    technology at all; I think it's more to do with the fact that there is
    no way that a DSLR, even at the $500 you mentioned the other day, is
    going to get the kind of volume a popular P&S camera can. Sigma does
    not appear to have any interest in a P&S, which is not suprising since
    you can't sell lenses with a P&S and lenses are still Sigma's biggest
    revenue maker. To get volume from the camera market Foveon needs
    either a conventional P&S camera or a built-in on another device like
    a PDA or a phone.

    It's the latter that seems likely to me given the *huge* amount of
    time that has passed with no P&S Foveon, despite the sensor hardware
    being readily available. Nokia has been talking about multi-megapixel
    camera phones for a while, Sony has them in its higher end CliƩ PDAs
    right now and both those markets have more potential to be the real
    death knell for consumer film photography than P&S digicams.

    For another view on this, take a look at Foveon's FAQ in the "Consumer
    and Professional Products" section. Below all the stuff about the
    Sigma deal and the reference to "Foveon is actively engaged with
    other major digital camera manufacturers" which has been up there
    "forever", as you say in reference to the Kodak rumour, is some more
    interesting text.

    Firstly, any imminent announcements about video cameras seem to be out
    of the equation (Q9), ditto for scanners (Q13). The real meat however
    is Q14 - Foveon is currently focused on the "mass market", and does
    not include Sigma in this - they are cited as a "specialized
    application". I read this as saying a DSLR is specialized, which I
    agree with since if you are not prepared to put the effort into
    learning to drive a DSLR, then you would probably be better with a
    P&S. Then they announce a VAR program targetted at the "industrial
    and scientific imaging market", it looks to me like they may have
    written off the camera market as a revenue stream.

    I'd have really liked to see a non-Sigma Foveon based DSLR to get
    something else to critique the technology with, but my hopes of that
    ever coming to pass are all but gone. Right now, I doubt we'll even
    see it in a non-Sigma camera.

    Andy
     
    Andy Blanchard, Dec 28, 2003
    #10
  11. John Doe

    Zack Guest

    On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:55:06 +0900, "George Preddy"
    <> wrote:

    >
    >"John Doe" <> wrote in message
    >news:p...
    >> What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera
    >> coming out are?

    >
    >Lots of speculation, that's about it. This happened...
    >
    >http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1070562816.html
    >
    >Personally I think Foveon has slowly come to release that the general public
    >can't grasp the concept behind their technology as most have been very well
    >conditioned to believe Bayers have full color MPs, so the 5M is quite risky.
    >Rumors of Kodak linking up with Foveon have been around forever, possibly
    >for a P&S. They really should've put the Pro 10M in the 14n.
    >

    Sounds AOK there GP ...looking forward to NFS(new-fun-stuff) on the
    DGCs in 04 ! MC & HNY everyone!!
     
    Zack, Dec 29, 2003
    #11
  12. John Doe

    Steve Young Guest

    > > "John Doe" <> wrote
    > > What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera
    > > coming out are?


    > "George Preddy" <> wrote
    > Personally I think Foveon has slowly come to release that the general public
    > can't grasp the concept behind their technology as most have been very well
    > conditioned to believe Bayers have full color MPs, so the 5M is quite risky.


    I don't think it matters squat to the public, what it is that makes the
    beautiful pictures. They just want to point, shoot and be dazzled

    Recall what many technologists said about the CMOS sensor a decade ago?
     
    Steve Young, Dec 29, 2003
    #12
  13. "Andy Blanchard" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:55:06 +0900, "George Preddy"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >Personally I think Foveon has slowly come to release that the general

    public
    > >can't grasp the concept behind their technology as most have been very

    well
    > >conditioned to believe Bayers have full color MPs, so the 5M is quite

    risky.
    > >Rumors of Kodak linking up with Foveon have been around forever, possibly
    > >for a P&S. They really should've put the Pro 10M in the 14n.

    >
    > I think that's a some what bogus line of reasoning. It's pretty much
    > a given that the _typical_ P&S buyer doesn't even know what "Bayer"
    > means, or even that it has something to do with digital cameras for
    > that matter. Far more likely they look at the bottom line of their
    > "Which Camera" magazine and see which has the highest score and number
    > of megapixels at a price they can afford. That's not a DSLR, and by
    > implication since the only cameras using the Foveon are the Sigma
    > DSLRs, it's not a Foveon based camera - the technology doesn't even
    > get to enter the equation, let alone play a significant part of it.


    I'd agree but for one thing, the 5M will be categorized and rated as a 1MP
    camera. Obviously that is silly as it would be a killer P&S, but that
    doesn't matter.

    > I don't think Foveon's issues are with the end-user perception of the
    > technology at all; I think it's more to do with the fact that there is
    > no way that a DSLR, even at the $500 you mentioned the other day, is
    > going to get the kind of volume a popular P&S camera can. Sigma does
    > not appear to have any interest in a P&S, which is not suprising since
    > you can't sell lenses with a P&S and lenses are still Sigma's biggest
    > revenue maker. To get volume from the camera market Foveon needs
    > either a conventional P&S camera or a built-in on another device like
    > a PDA or a phone.


    Yes, I agree. Sigma's grand plan centers on two things: not having a
    vested interest in the P&S market, and they are a lens maker not a camera
    maker, primarily. Both facts together put them in a very unique position
    to sell DSLR bodies below cost and recoup all and more on lens sales, and
    they can do it without shooting their own prosumer line in the foot. The
    other DSLRs makers are being forced into a very tough position. It's very
    smart on Sigma's part, and the ball and chain they are placing on other DSLR
    prices also works very much to their advantage to sell high value lenses in
    other mounts.

    It's brilliant, really, regardless of what one thinks of them. Probably the
    most overtly aggressive marketing strategy we've seen since digital cameras
    came out.

    > It's the latter that seems likely to me given the *huge* amount of
    > time that has passed with no P&S Foveon, despite the sensor hardware
    > being readily available. Nokia has been talking about multi-megapixel
    > camera phones for a while, Sony has them in its higher end CliƩ PDAs
    > right now and both those markets have more potential to be the real
    > death knell for consumer film photography than P&S digicams.
    >
    > For another view on this, take a look at Foveon's FAQ in the "Consumer
    > and Professional Products" section. Below all the stuff about the
    > Sigma deal and the reference to "Foveon is actively engaged with
    > other major digital camera manufacturers" which has been up there
    > "forever", as you say in reference to the Kodak rumour, is some more
    > interesting text.


    Yes, they've always said they want to follow an inclusive business model.
    At one point (first Foveon prototype) the NSC CEO said they weren't
    interested in selling thousands of cameras, but milions He specifically
    referred to their new Foveon CMOS processes as facilitating disposable
    digital cameras selling in the few dollar range.

    But...

    I personally think that is NSC talking. I think Foveon is at its heart a
    high tech co., and they don't want to be type cast as low end, at least not
    yet. I think you'll see a higher end sensor released before, or as a
    minimum along with, the adoption of the 5M in a P&S model. Unless the price
    point for a Foveon 5MP P&S is really earth shattering, like $150 or so, and
    thus highlights their technological prowess in some round about way. That
    could appease NSC too.

    The risk is that it will be categorized as a 1MP camera. Then again, if the
    image quality is actually tested and acknowledged, it could be a boon as
    P&S'ers might gravitate toward the naturally lower bandwidth of Foveon
    sensors.

    > Firstly, any imminent announcements about video cameras seem to be out
    > of the equation (Q9), ditto for scanners (Q13). The real meat however
    > is Q14 - Foveon is currently focused on the "mass market", and does
    > not include Sigma in this - they are cited as a "specialized
    > application". I read this as saying a DSLR is specialized, which I
    > agree with since if you are not prepared to put the effort into
    > learning to drive a DSLR, then you would probably be better with a
    > P&S. Then they announce a VAR program targetted at the "industrial
    > and scientific imaging market", it looks to me like they may have
    > written off the camera market as a revenue stream.
    >
    > I'd have really liked to see a non-Sigma Foveon based DSLR to get
    > something else to critique the technology with, but my hopes of that
    > ever coming to pass are all but gone. Right now, I doubt we'll even
    > see it in a non-Sigma camera.


    I don't know. It'll be very interesting to see unfold. Contrary to common
    trolling, Sigma has a real hit on their hand with the SDs. I'm certain what
    they have managed to accomplish, in such a short period of time, amazes even
    them. The SDs are terrific DSLRs. The 10 is hard to fault for anything,
    which is why most of the big-money-sponsored pro review sites and magazines
    are taking the old "maybe if we ignore it it will go away" approach.

    Personally, I think Foveon owes a special debt of gratitude to Sigma, so I
    think they'll will have first hack at the next gen Foveon chip, if only for
    a short period of time.
     
    George Preddy, Dec 29, 2003
    #13
  14. John Doe

    Guest

    In message <>,
    John Doe <> wrote:

    >How about a compact point and shoot camera?


    There was one announced at dpreview.com back in the spring, but it never
    materialized.
    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
     
    , Dec 31, 2003
    #14
  15. <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In message <>,
    > John Doe <> wrote:
    >
    > >How about a compact point and shoot camera?

    >
    > There was one announced at dpreview.com back in the spring, but it never
    > materialized.


    Link?
     
    George Preddy, Dec 31, 2003
    #15
  16. John Doe

    John Doe Guest

    Thanks Andy. That was very informative.

    On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:38:30 +0000, Andy Blanchard wrote:
    > ...snip...
    > Firstly, any imminent announcements about video cameras seem to be out
    > of the equation (Q9), ditto for scanners (Q13). The real meat however
    > is Q14 - Foveon is currently focused on the "mass market", and does
    > not include Sigma in this - they are cited as a "specialized
    > application". I read this as saying a DSLR is specialized, which I
    > agree with since if you are not prepared to put the effort into
    > learning to drive a DSLR, then you would probably be better with a
    > P&S. Then they announce a VAR program targetted at the "industrial
    > and scientific imaging market", it looks to me like they may have
    > written off the camera market as a revenue stream.
    >
    > I'd have really liked to see a non-Sigma Foveon based DSLR to get
    > something else to critique the technology with, but my hopes of that
    > ever coming to pass are all but gone. Right now, I doubt we'll even
    > see it in a non-Sigma camera.
    >
    > Andy
     
    John Doe, Dec 31, 2003
    #16
  17. John Doe

    Guest

    In message <bstaiq$t6p$>,
    "George Preddy" <> wrote:

    ><> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> In message <>,
    >> John Doe <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >How about a compact point and shoot camera?

    >>
    >> There was one announced at dpreview.com back in the spring, but it never
    >> materialized.

    >
    >Link?


    No. Search.
    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
     
    , Dec 31, 2003
    #17
  18. John Doe

    DJ Guest

    On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:53:10 -0500, "james roboto" <>
    wrote:

    >they are already out. The sd9 and sd10


    LOL. That's cruel!

    >
    >
    >"John Doe" <> wrote in message
    >news:p...
    >> What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera
    >> coming out are?

    >
     
    DJ, Dec 31, 2003
    #18
  19. <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In message <bstaiq$t6p$>,
    > "George Preddy" <> wrote:
    >
    > ><> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >> In message <>,
    > >> John Doe <> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >How about a compact point and shoot camera?
    > >>
    > >> There was one announced at dpreview.com back in the spring, but it

    never
    > >> materialized.

    > >
    > >Link?

    >
    > No. Search.


    Nothing there.
     
    George Preddy, Dec 31, 2003
    #19
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