What Determines When a Message on a NG is Deleted?

Discussion in 'Computer Information' started by Edge, Jan 19, 2004.

  1. Edge

    Edge Guest

    Is there a standard time-out on all NG servers that delete a message after x
    amount of time? Is there a way to delete a message after you've posted? I'm
    running OE 5.5. The file delete command is grayed out on NGs.

    TIA
     
    Edge, Jan 19, 2004
    #1
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  2. Edge

    DeMoN LaG Guest

    "Edge" <> wrote in
    news:YWZOb.34909$:

    > Is there a standard time-out on all NG servers that delete a message
    > after x amount of time? Is there a way to delete a message after
    > you've posted? I'm running OE 5.5. The file delete command is grayed
    > out on NGs.


    You can't delete a newsgroup message. They expire from the server when the
    server's spool fills up (ie, it runs out of space). New messages move in
    and replace the oldest, repeat forever.

    --
    AIM: FrznFoodClerk
    email: de_on-lag@co_cast.net (_ = m)
    website: under construction
    Need a technician in the south Jersey area?
    email/IM for rates/services
     
    DeMoN LaG, Jan 20, 2004
    #2
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  3. DeMoN LaG wrote:
    > "Edge" <> wrote in
    > news:YWZOb.34909$:
    >
    >
    >>Is there a standard time-out on all NG servers that delete a message
    >>after x amount of time? Is there a way to delete a message after
    >>you've posted? I'm running OE 5.5. The file delete command is grayed
    >>out on NGs.

    >
    >
    > You can't delete a newsgroup message. They expire from the server when the
    > server's spool fills up (ie, it runs out of space). New messages move in
    > and replace the oldest, repeat forever.
    >

    Don't some NG's also have an aging feature? It seems like I've heard
    statements like "this NG keeps messages for 6 weeks". Or is that simply
    a paraphrase of the actuality "this NG is allocated enough space for 6
    weeks worth of expected messages"?
     
    Calvin Crumrine, Jan 20, 2004
    #3
  4. Edge

    DeMoN LaG Guest

    Calvin Crumrine <> wrote in news:100qlvnom0bj6d9
    @corp.supernews.com:

    > Don't some NG's also have an aging feature? It seems like I've heard
    > statements like "this NG keeps messages for 6 weeks". Or is that simply
    > a paraphrase of the actuality "this NG is allocated enough space for 6
    > weeks worth of expected messages"?


    There is no aging. Usenet is decentralized, we all read and write from
    different servers. Well, me and you are on the same server, Supernews, but
    you get my point. Each server has different sized spools for different
    things. Supernews' spools currently hold about 260 days of text retention,
    35 to 40 days of binary group retention, and 10 to 15 days of multipart
    binary retention (files posted in multiple parts, instead of one big post).
    Depending on where you read that, it may be complete crap. No person can
    post that and be right about it. Some servers (like those run by ISPs
    themselves instead of outsourcing) usually get like 5 days of text
    retention and 6 to 12 hours of binary retention. Supernews or Giganews
    will give you over 30 weeks of text retention.

    --
    AIM: FrznFoodClerk
    email: de_on-lag@co_cast.net (_ = m)
    website: under construction
    Need a technician in the south Jersey area?
    email/IM for rates/services
     
    DeMoN LaG, Jan 20, 2004
    #4
  5. DeMoN LaG wrote:
    > Calvin Crumrine <> wrote in news:100qlvnom0bj6d9
    > @corp.supernews.com:
    >
    >
    >>Don't some NG's also have an aging feature? It seems like I've heard
    >>statements like "this NG keeps messages for 6 weeks". Or is that simply
    >>a paraphrase of the actuality "this NG is allocated enough space for 6
    >>weeks worth of expected messages"?

    >
    >
    > There is no aging. Usenet is decentralized, we all read and write from
    > different servers. Well, me and you are on the same server, Supernews, but
    > you get my point. Each server has different sized spools for different
    > things. Supernews' spools currently hold about 260 days of text retention,
    > 35 to 40 days of binary group retention, and 10 to 15 days of multipart
    > binary retention (files posted in multiple parts, instead of one big post).
    > Depending on where you read that, it may be complete crap. No person can
    > post that and be right about it. Some servers (like those run by ISPs
    > themselves instead of outsourcing) usually get like 5 days of text
    > retention and 6 to 12 hours of binary retention. Supernews or Giganews
    > will give you over 30 weeks of text retention.
    >

    And now that you remind me I do recall that whereever it was that I read
    it it was talking about only the messages retained on that server, not
    actually about the NG.

    But thanks for clearing it up.
     
    Calvin Crumrine, Jan 20, 2004
    #5
  6. Edge

    -------> Ian Guest

    DeMoN LaG <n@a> wrote:

    >You can't delete a newsgroup message.


    Yes you can... I have done many times... It doesn't get deleted from
    things like Google though. You can post a "Cancel Usenet Message". I
    don't know how to do it from Outlook Express, but it's straightforward
    with Agent.
     
    -------> Ian, Jan 20, 2004
    #6
  7. Edge

    Trent© Guest

    On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 23:41:44 GMT, "Edge" <> wrote:

    >Is there a standard time-out on all NG servers that delete a message after x
    >amount of time?


    Yes...and it varies by news provider...and by the type of group.

    Some providers purge after a couple of weeks...some after a coupla
    months. And binary messages are generally purged more often than text
    messages.

    >Is there a way to delete a message after you've posted?


    Yes...thru yer news reader. I'm not sure if this option is available
    in OE...but I would think it is. Its available in Agent.

    > I'm
    >running OE 5.5. The file delete command is grayed out on NGs.


    You can only delete a message that you posted. You can't delete
    someone else's post. That option will be grayed out if its not your
    post.

    Besides that, I think its also dependent on the news provider. Not
    all providers will let you delete messages...so I'm told. However,
    many will.

    You might want to check with AT&T on their policy.


    Have a nice week...

    Trent

    If the cheese isn't yours...its Nacho cheese, man!
     
    Trent©, Jan 21, 2004
    #7
  8. Edge

    Thor Guest

    "Calvin Crumrine" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > DeMoN LaG wrote:
    > > "Edge" <> wrote in
    > > news:YWZOb.34909$:
    > >
    > >
    > >>Is there a standard time-out on all NG servers that delete a message
    > >>after x amount of time? Is there a way to delete a message after
    > >>you've posted? I'm running OE 5.5. The file delete command is grayed
    > >>out on NGs.

    > >
    > >
    > > You can't delete a newsgroup message. They expire from the server when

    the
    > > server's spool fills up (ie, it runs out of space). New messages move

    in
    > > and replace the oldest, repeat forever.
    > >

    > Don't some NG's also have an aging feature? It seems like I've heard
    > statements like "this NG keeps messages for 6 weeks". Or is that simply
    > a paraphrase of the actuality "this NG is allocated enough space for 6
    > weeks worth of expected messages"?


    It's entirely up to the individual servers and the settings their admins
    use. No newsgroup has control over article retention. Admins of a particular
    Usenet server may set up individual expiration settings for certain
    newsgroups though.
     
    Thor, Jan 21, 2004
    #8
  9. Edge

    DeMoN LaG Guest

    "-------> Ian" <> wrote in
    news::

    > Yes you can... I have done many times... It doesn't get deleted from
    > things like Google though. You can post a "Cancel Usenet Message". I
    > don't know how to do it from Outlook Express, but it's straightforward
    > with Agent.
    >


    A) Cancel and delete are two different things
    B) Almost all decently run news servers (Giganews, Supernews, Easynews,
    Octanews, sharedsecrets) do not honor cancels. Cancels are easy to forge,
    I can send a cancel for every message in this group in a matter of minutes.

    --
    AIM: FrznFoodClerk
    email: de_on-lag@co_cast.net (_ = m)
    website: under construction
    Need a technician in the south Jersey area?
    email/IM for rates/services
     
    DeMoN LaG, Jan 21, 2004
    #9
  10. Edge

    DeMoN LaG Guest

    Trent© <> wrote in
    news:eek::

    > You can only delete a message that you posted. You can't delete
    > someone else's post. That option will be grayed out if its not your
    > post.
    >


    Not true at all. I can send a cancel for your message if I want.

    --
    AIM: FrznFoodClerk
    email: de_on-lag@co_cast.net (_ = m)
    website: under construction
    Need a technician in the south Jersey area?
    email/IM for rates/services
     
    DeMoN LaG, Jan 21, 2004
    #10
  11. Edge

    Trent© Guest

    On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 03:09:10 -0000, DeMoN LaG <n@a> wrote:

    >Trent© <> wrote in
    >news:eek::
    >
    >> You can only delete a message that you posted. You can't delete
    >> someone else's post. That option will be grayed out if its not your
    >> post.
    >>

    >
    >Not true at all. I can send a cancel for your message if I want.


    Then cancel this one.

    Let me know when you've done it...and I'll go back and check.


    Have a nice week...

    Trent

    If the cheese isn't yours...its Nacho cheese, man!
     
    Trent©, Jan 21, 2004
    #11
  12. Edge

    DeMoN LaG Guest

    Trent© <> wrote in
    news::

    > Let me know when you've done it...and I'll go back and check.


    There is no point in you checking. As I pointed out earlier, Giganews
    (among other major news providers) does not honor cancels.

    --
    AIM: FrznFoodClerk
    email: de_on-lag@co_cast.net (_ = m)
    website: under construction
    Need a technician in the south Jersey area?
    email/IM for rates/services
     
    DeMoN LaG, Jan 21, 2004
    #12
  13. Edge

    -------> Ian Guest

    DeMoN LaG <n@a> wrote:

    >"-------> Ian" <> wrote in
    >news::
    >
    >> Yes you can... I have done many times... It doesn't get deleted from
    >> things like Google though. You can post a "Cancel Usenet Message". I
    >> don't know how to do it from Outlook Express, but it's straightforward
    >> with Agent.
    >>

    >
    >A) Cancel and delete are two different things


    Yes, deletion is even simpler, I can delete all messages in my reader,
    but they remain on the server.

    >B) Almost all decently run news servers (Giganews, Supernews, Easynews,
    >Octanews, sharedsecrets) do not honor cancels. Cancels are easy to forge,
    >I can send a cancel for every message in this group in a matter of minutes.


    Hmm, so although I've sent cancels before, and they have indeed been
    cancelled on the server I use, they are not cancelled on all servers?
    I know Google doesn't cancel posts, but I thought that was because it
    is an NG archiver.
     
    -------> Ian, Jan 21, 2004
    #13
  14. Edge

    -------> Ian Guest

    DeMoN LaG <n@a> wrote:

    >Trent© <> wrote in
    >news::
    >
    >> Let me know when you've done it...and I'll go back and check.

    >
    >There is no point in you checking. As I pointed out earlier, Giganews
    >(among other major news providers) does not honor cancels.


    My server does though. Cancel his message, and I'll check it later.
     
    -------> Ian, Jan 21, 2004
    #14
  15. Edge

    Trent© Guest

    On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 05:41:20 -0000, DeMoN LaG <n@a> wrote:

    >Trent© <> wrote in
    >news::
    >
    >> Let me know when you've done it...and I'll go back and check.

    >
    >There is no point in you checking. As I pointed out earlier, Giganews
    >(among other major news providers) does not honor cancels.


    Did you write this?... lol

    >Not true at all. I can send a cancel for your message if I want.



    Have a nice week...

    Trent

    If the cheese isn't yours...its Nacho cheese, man!
     
    Trent©, Jan 21, 2004
    #15
  16. Edge

    Trent© Guest

    On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:32:08 +0000, "-------> Ian"
    <> wrote:

    >DeMoN LaG <n@a> wrote:
    >
    >>Trent© <> wrote in
    >>news::
    >>
    >>> Let me know when you've done it...and I'll go back and check.

    >>
    >>There is no point in you checking. As I pointed out earlier, Giganews
    >>(among other major news providers) does not honor cancels.

    >
    >My server does though. Cancel his message, and I'll check it later.


    You can only cancel a message on the server where it was posted. I
    can't cancel my message after its hit your server. I can't cancel it
    from your server...or any else's.

    This makes it almost impossible to cancel any message from the
    Internet. Canceling a message on the server has almost NO
    effect...except on the ISP's server...unless you get really lucky.

    The message I asked Demon to cancel...I just canceled it. But it'll be
    out on the Internet forever! lol The only folks who won't see it are
    the folks who are going to my news provider from this moment on.


    Have a nice week...

    Trent

    If the cheese isn't yours...its Nacho cheese, man!
     
    Trent©, Jan 21, 2004
    #16
  17. Edge

    Thor Guest

    "-------> Ian" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > DeMoN LaG <n@a> wrote:
    >
    > >Trent© <> wrote in
    > >news::
    > >
    > >> Let me know when you've done it...and I'll go back and check.

    > >
    > >There is no point in you checking. As I pointed out earlier, Giganews
    > >(among other major news providers) does not honor cancels.

    >
    > My server does though. Cancel his message, and I'll check it later.


    Your server more than likely only honors cancels from YOU because you are
    subscribing to it, and you were the author. That will not apply to other
    servers that carry your post, which are not controlled by your usenet
    provider. Once your message has propagated outside your Usenet provider's
    servers, it is going to stay on the majority of servers out there, and you
    can try and cancel all you want. It won't do much good. This is why Demon
    will not have any luck trying to cancel Trent's post. Years ago, it was more
    common for servers to honor cancels, but it was also pretty easy to cancel
    other people's posts, so for the most part cancels are no longer honored,
    and when they are, it is only on the originating server from the person who
    posted it in the first place, as in your case.
     
    Thor, Jan 21, 2004
    #17
  18. Edge

    -------> Ian Guest

    "Thor" <> wrote:

    >Your server more than likely only honors cancels from YOU because you are
    >subscribing to it, and you were the author. That will not apply to other
    >servers that carry your post, which are not controlled by your usenet
    >provider. Once your message has propagated outside your Usenet provider's
    >servers, it is going to stay on the majority of servers out there, and you
    >can try and cancel all you want. It won't do much good. This is why Demon
    >will not have any luck trying to cancel Trent's post. Years ago, it was more
    >common for servers to honor cancels, but it was also pretty easy to cancel
    >other people's posts, so for the most part cancels are no longer honored,
    >and when they are, it is only on the originating server from the person who
    >posted it in the first place, as in your case.


    Damn. Cancel messages are not sent round, just as the original posts
    were. I've just realised how embarassing that is for me...

    Oh well, no-one will remember anyway...
     
    -------> Ian, Jan 21, 2004
    #18
  19. Edge

    DeMoN LaG Guest

    "-------> Ian" <> wrote in
    news::

    > Hmm, so although I've sent cancels before, and they have indeed been
    > cancelled on the server I use, they are not cancelled on all servers?
    > I know Google doesn't cancel posts, but I thought that was because it
    > is an NG archiver.


    As I posted earlier, cancels are easy to forge if you have the right
    software (stuff that will let you cancel a post you didn't make), an entire
    group of 40,000 messages can be cancelled in minutes.

    You are using what appears to be an ISP server (a server run by your
    internet service). Those typically allow cancels because they don't know
    any better.

    Major providers I can say with 100% confidence do not honor cancels:
    Supernews
    Giganews
    Easynews
    Octanews
    Shared Secrets
    100proofnews
    newshosting

    If you would like to try, cancel your message here and post when it
    disappears from your server, and I'll go and pull it off Supernews and
    Giganews and show it to you.

    --
    AIM: FrznFoodClerk
    email: de_on-lag@co_cast.net (_ = m)
    website: under construction
    Need a technician in the south Jersey area?
    email/IM for rates/services
     
    DeMoN LaG, Jan 21, 2004
    #19
  20. Edge

    DeMoN LaG Guest

    Trent© <> wrote in
    news:p:

    > The message I asked Demon to cancel...I just canceled it. But it'll be
    > out on the Internet forever! lol The only folks who won't see it are
    > the folks who are going to my news provider from this moment on.
    >


    That isn't really true either, as Giganews doesn't honor cancels.

    --
    AIM: FrznFoodClerk
    email: de_on-lag@co_cast.net (_ = m)
    website: under construction
    Need a technician in the south Jersey area?
    email/IM for rates/services
     
    DeMoN LaG, Jan 21, 2004
    #20
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