Well 3 stikes and you out and with No solid evidence of it.

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Mary Hanna, Nov 5, 2009.

  1. Mary Hanna

    Mary Hanna Guest

    Mary Hanna, Nov 5, 2009
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Mary Hanna

    Nik Coughlin Guest

    "Mary Hanna" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > Among other things, the ACTA draft calls for a global three-strikes policy
    > to
    > disconnect alleged file-sharers from the Internet, without solid evidence
    > or a
    > court order
    >
    >
    > Seems that we will be in the same boat If Ozz is, plus the US free trade
    > talks.
    >
    >
    > http://torrentfreak.com/secret-anti-piracy-treaty-turns-isps-into-pirates-091104/


    Also, makes non-commercial copyright infringement a criminal rather than a
    civil offense. Nice.
     
    Nik Coughlin, Nov 5, 2009
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Mary Hanna

    Peter Hewett Guest

    Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and with no solid evidence of it.

    Mary Hanna wrote:
    > Among other things, the ACTA draft calls for a global three-strikes policy
    > to disconnect alleged file-sharers from the Internet, without solid
    > evidence or a court order
    > Seems that we will be in the same boat If Ozz is, plus the US free trade
    > talks.
    > http://torrentfreak.com/secret-anti-piracy-treaty-turns-isps-into-

    pirates-091104/

    And - why is it being kept so secret?
    What is there to hide?


    http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/EEC8CEAFC9C54B90CC2576630080B002
    "If correct, this is cause for alarm and shows a significant change in
    ACTA's focus,†says InternetNZ spokesperson Jordan Carter.
    “The New Zealand negotiators need to argue for ACTA to focus on the big
    economic problems caused by commercial piracy. The government should clarify
    this stance and should put more information about what exactly is under
    discussion into the public domain - and the sooner the better," he says.

    http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/76BBB732F7361984CC257663006C3E16
     
    Peter Hewett, Nov 5, 2009
    #3
  4. Mary Hanna

    Msg. Scooter Guest

    On , , Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:15:04 +1300, Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and with No
    solid evidence of it., "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote:

    >"Mary Hanna" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >>
    >> Among other things, the ACTA draft calls for a global three-strikes policy
    >> to
    >> disconnect alleged file-sharers from the Internet, without solid evidence
    >> or a
    >> court order
    >>
    >>
    >> Seems that we will be in the same boat If Ozz is, plus the US free trade
    >> talks.
    >>
    >>
    >> http://torrentfreak.com/secret-anti-piracy-treaty-turns-isps-into-pirates-091104/

    >
    >Also, makes non-commercial copyright infringement a criminal rather than a
    >civil offense. Nice.


    It is really quite simple, don't pinch someone elses work.
    What is so bloody difficult about that?

    --
    "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor
    to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
    Anatole France.
     
    Msg. Scooter, Nov 5, 2009
    #4
  5. Mary Hanna

    impossible Guest

    Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and with no solid evidence of it.

    "Peter Hewett" <> wrote in message
    news:hctsgp$mho$-september.org...
    > Mary Hanna wrote:
    >> Among other things, the ACTA draft calls for a global three-strikes
    >> policy
    >> to disconnect alleged file-sharers from the Internet, without solid
    >> evidence or a court order
    >> Seems that we will be in the same boat If Ozz is, plus the US free
    >> trade
    >> talks.
    >> http://torrentfreak.com/secret-anti-piracy-treaty-turns-isps-into-

    > pirates-091104/
    >
    > And - why is it being kept so secret?
    > What is there to hide?
    >
    >
    > http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/EEC8CEAFC9C54B90CC2576630080B002
    > "If correct, this is cause for alarm and shows a significant change in
    > ACTA's focus,†says InternetNZ spokesperson Jordan Carter.
    > “The New Zealand negotiators need to argue for ACTA to focus on the big
    > economic problems caused by commercial piracy. The government should
    > clarify
    > this stance and should put more information about what exactly is under
    > discussion into the public domain - and the sooner the better," he says.
    >
    > http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/76BBB732F7361984CC257663006C3E16
    >
    >


    Why "focus on the big economic problems caused by commercial piracy" and not
    piracy itself? Are you suggesting that violation of copyright is ok so long
    as you don't try to sell the goods you've pirated?
     
    impossible, Nov 5, 2009
    #5
  6. Mary Hanna

    peterwn Guest

    Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and with no solid evidence of it.

    On Nov 5, 7:48 pm, Peter Hewett <> wrote:
    > Mary Hanna wrote:
    > > Among other things, the ACTA draft calls for a global three-strikes policy
    > > to disconnect alleged file-sharers from the Internet, without solid
    > > evidence or a court order
    > > Seems that we  will be in the same boat If Ozz is,  plus the US free trade
    > > talks.
    > >http://torrentfreak.com/secret-anti-piracy-treaty-turns-isps-into-

    >
    > pirates-091104/
    >
    > And - why is it being kept so secret?
    > What is there to hide?


    To try and prevent popular debate on the matter before state parties
    have initially signed the treaty. those promoting the treaty have so
    far been able to do a lot of work on it without interference from
    opponents, protestors, etc.

    The fundamental issue state parties are being confronted with is what
    is a practical and effective way of protecting property interests in
    creative works in a similar manner that owners of real estate and
    other property are protected by society.

    It is very difficult to argue with the proposition that owners of
    intellectual property would expect, in a civilised society, that the
    state provides mechanisms to help protect their property rights.

    The issue then becomes one of how to protect these interests without
    indue effect on ordinary human rights.
     
    peterwn, Nov 5, 2009
    #6
  7. Mary Hanna

    peterwn Guest

    Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and with No solid evidence of it.

    On Nov 5, 5:56 pm, Mary Hanna <> wrote:
    > Among other things, the ACTA draft calls for a global three-strikes policy to
    > disconnect alleged file-sharers from the Internet, without solid evidence or a
    > court order
    >
    > Seems that we  will be in the same boat If Ozz is,  plus the US free trade
    > talks.
    >
    > http://torrentfreak.com/secret-anti-piracy-treaty-turns-isps-into-pir...


    I have responded to a similar thread on nz.comp as (because it is an
    important matter):

    > And - why is it being kept so secret?
    > What is there to hide?


    To try and prevent popular debate on the matter before state parties
    have initially signed the treaty. those promoting the treaty have so
    far been able to do a lot of work on it without interference from
    opponents, protestors, etc.

    The fundamental issue state parties are being confronted with is what
    is a practical and effective way of protecting property interests in
    creative works in a similar manner that owners of real estate and
    other property are protected by society.

    It is very difficult to argue with the proposition that owners of
    intellectual property would expect, in a civilised society, that the
    state provides mechanisms to help protect their property rights.

    The issue then becomes one of how to protect these interests without
    indue effect on ordinary human rights.
     
    peterwn, Nov 5, 2009
    #7
  8. Mary Hanna

    Nik Coughlin Guest

    "Msg. Scooter" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On , , Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:15:04 +1300, Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and
    > with No
    > solid evidence of it., "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote:
    >
    >>"Mary Hanna" <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>>
    >>> Among other things, the ACTA draft calls for a global three-strikes
    >>> policy
    >>> to
    >>> disconnect alleged file-sharers from the Internet, without solid
    >>> evidence
    >>> or a
    >>> court order
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Seems that we will be in the same boat If Ozz is, plus the US free
    >>> trade
    >>> talks.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> http://torrentfreak.com/secret-anti-piracy-treaty-turns-isps-into-pirates-091104/

    >>
    >>Also, makes non-commercial copyright infringement a criminal rather than a
    >>civil offense. Nice.

    >
    > It is really quite simple, don't pinch someone elses work.
    > What is so bloody difficult about that?


    Yeah, that's grossly oversimplified.

    I recently got an illegally duplicated copy of a book that I wanted to read
    but is out of print, and has been for 20 years. It's a collector's item and
    is hard to find, and if you do manage to find it goes for around US$8000 a
    copy. I'm not a collector, I just wanted to read it, I own legitimate
    copies of all of the author's other works, and it's the 2nd book in a
    trilogy that I have book 1 & 3 of.

    I guess I should have just stumped up the US$8000 or be prepared to do jail
    time huh.
     
    Nik Coughlin, Nov 5, 2009
    #8
  9. Mary Hanna

    Roger_Nickel Guest

    Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and with no solid evidence of it.

    On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:48:57 +1300, Peter Hewett wrote:

    > Mary Hanna wrote:
    >> Among other things, the ACTA draft calls for a global three-strikes
    >> policy to disconnect alleged file-sharers from the Internet, without
    >> solid evidence or a court order
    >> Seems that we will be in the same boat If Ozz is, plus the US free
    >> trade talks.
    >> http://torrentfreak.com/secret-anti-piracy-treaty-turns-isps-into-

    > pirates-091104/
    >
    > And - why is it being kept so secret? What is there to hide?
    >
    >
    > http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/

    EEC8CEAFC9C54B90CC2576630080B002
    > "If correct, this is cause for alarm and shows a significant change in
    > ACTA's focus,†says InternetNZ spokesperson Jordan Carter. “The New
    > Zealand negotiators need to argue for ACTA to focus on the big economic
    > problems caused by commercial piracy. The government should clarify this
    > stance and should put more information about what exactly is under
    > discussion into the public domain - and the sooner the better," he says.
    >
    > http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/

    news/76BBB732F7361984CC257663006C3E16

    The attempt to redefine copyright infringement (a civil offence) as
    counterfeiting- (a criminal offence) is what disturbs me. No one has yet
    explained to me exactly why why an Anti Counterfeiting Trade Agreement
    should be addressing copyright infringement. TRIPS, Berne Convention etc.
    already address copyright.
     
    Roger_Nickel, Nov 5, 2009
    #9
  10. Mary Hanna

    Msg. Scooter Guest

    On , , Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:21:50 +1300, Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and with No
    solid evidence of it., "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote:

    >"Msg. Scooter" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On , , Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:15:04 +1300, Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and
    >> with No
    >> solid evidence of it., "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>"Mary Hanna" <> wrote in message
    >>>news:...
    >>>>
    >>>> Among other things, the ACTA draft calls for a global three-strikes
    >>>> policy
    >>>> to
    >>>> disconnect alleged file-sharers from the Internet, without solid
    >>>> evidence
    >>>> or a
    >>>> court order
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Seems that we will be in the same boat If Ozz is, plus the US free
    >>>> trade
    >>>> talks.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> http://torrentfreak.com/secret-anti-piracy-treaty-turns-isps-into-pirates-091104/
    >>>
    >>>Also, makes non-commercial copyright infringement a criminal rather than a
    >>>civil offense. Nice.

    >>
    >> It is really quite simple, don't pinch someone elses work.
    >> What is so bloody difficult about that?

    >
    >Yeah, that's grossly oversimplified.
    >
    >I recently got an illegally duplicated copy of a book that I wanted to read
    >but is out of print, and has been for 20 years. It's a collector's item and
    >is hard to find, and if you do manage to find it goes for around US$8000 a
    >copy. I'm not a collector, I just wanted to read it, I own legitimate
    >copies of all of the author's other works, and it's the 2nd book in a
    >trilogy that I have book 1 & 3 of.
    >
    >I guess I should have just stumped up the US$8000 or be prepared to do jail
    >time huh.


    In a simplified explanation to you, I would say "Yes, you should be prepared to
    jail time."
    You acknowledge that you know that what you are doing is wrong where you say
    "illegally".
    No matter how you attempt to justify it to yourself and me, you know whatyou did
    was wrong. It is still theft if you take an illegal copy.

    --
    "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor
    to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
    Anatole France.
     
    Msg. Scooter, Nov 5, 2009
    #10
  11. Mary Hanna

    Nik Coughlin Guest

    "Msg. Scooter" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On , , Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:21:50 +1300, Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and
    > with No
    > solid evidence of it., "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote:
    >
    >>"Msg. Scooter" <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>> On , , Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:15:04 +1300, Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and
    >>> with No
    >>> solid evidence of it., "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>"Mary Hanna" <> wrote in message
    >>>>news:...
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Among other things, the ACTA draft calls for a global three-strikes
    >>>>> policy
    >>>>> to
    >>>>> disconnect alleged file-sharers from the Internet, without solid
    >>>>> evidence
    >>>>> or a
    >>>>> court order
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Seems that we will be in the same boat If Ozz is, plus the US free
    >>>>> trade
    >>>>> talks.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> http://torrentfreak.com/secret-anti-piracy-treaty-turns-isps-into-pirates-091104/
    >>>>
    >>>>Also, makes non-commercial copyright infringement a criminal rather than
    >>>>a
    >>>>civil offense. Nice.
    >>>
    >>> It is really quite simple, don't pinch someone elses work.
    >>> What is so bloody difficult about that?

    >>
    >>Yeah, that's grossly oversimplified.
    >>
    >>I recently got an illegally duplicated copy of a book that I wanted to
    >>read
    >>but is out of print, and has been for 20 years. It's a collector's item
    >>and
    >>is hard to find, and if you do manage to find it goes for around US$8000 a
    >>copy. I'm not a collector, I just wanted to read it, I own legitimate
    >>copies of all of the author's other works, and it's the 2nd book in a
    >>trilogy that I have book 1 & 3 of.
    >>
    >>I guess I should have just stumped up the US$8000 or be prepared to do
    >>jail
    >>time huh.

    >
    > In a simplified explanation to you, I would say "Yes, you should be
    > prepared to
    > jail time."
    > You acknowledge that you know that what you are doing is wrong where you
    > say
    > "illegally".


    I don't believe that what I have done is wrong. Illegal, yes, wrong, no.

    Not every law is moral, just and fair and I have no compunction breaking
    those that I disagree with.

    Taking the stance that breaking a law is an immoral act seems to me a very
    rigid and authoritarian outlook on the world.

    > No matter how you attempt to justify it to yourself and me, you know
    > whatyou did
    > was wrong.


    I don't need to justify it, I have no moral qualms here. I think copyright
    terms are too long and I also think that copyright should lapse after a
    certain period of time if the copyright holder chooses to stop making that
    work available.

    > No matter how you attempt to justify it to yourself and me, you know
    > whatyou did
    > was wrong. It is still theft if you take an illegal copy.


    Creators should be compensated for their work by those that make use of that
    work but like everything else this needs to be balanced with the needs of
    society.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/feb/21/intellectual.property
     
    Nik Coughlin, Nov 5, 2009
    #11
  12. Mary Hanna

    impossible Guest

    "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote in message
    news:hcvc4s$l04$-september.org...
    > "Msg. Scooter" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> On , , Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:15:04 +1300, Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and
    >> with No
    >> solid evidence of it., "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>"Mary Hanna" <> wrote in message
    >>>news:...
    >>>>
    >>>> Among other things, the ACTA draft calls for a global three-strikes
    >>>> policy
    >>>> to
    >>>> disconnect alleged file-sharers from the Internet, without solid
    >>>> evidence
    >>>> or a
    >>>> court order
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Seems that we will be in the same boat If Ozz is, plus the US free
    >>>> trade
    >>>> talks.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> http://torrentfreak.com/secret-anti-piracy-treaty-turns-isps-into-pirates-091104/
    >>>
    >>>Also, makes non-commercial copyright infringement a criminal rather than
    >>>a
    >>>civil offense. Nice.

    >>
    >> It is really quite simple, don't pinch someone elses work.
    >> What is so bloody difficult about that?

    >
    > Yeah, that's grossly oversimplified.
    >
    > I recently got an illegally duplicated copy of a book that I wanted to
    > read but is out of print, and has been for 20 years. It's a collector's
    > item and is hard to find, and if you do manage to find it goes for around
    > US$8000 a copy. I'm not a collector, I just wanted to read it, I own
    > legitimate copies of all of the author's other works, and it's the 2nd
    > book in a trilogy that I have book 1 & 3 of.
    >
    > I guess I should have just stumped up the US$8000 or be prepared to do
    > jail time huh.


    Yes.
     
    impossible, Nov 6, 2009
    #12
  13. Mary Hanna

    impossible Guest

    Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and with no solid evidence of it.

    "peterwn" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    On Nov 5, 7:48 pm, Peter Hewett <> wrote:
    > Mary Hanna wrote:
    >> > Among other things, the ACTA draft calls for a global three-strikes
    >> > policy
    >> > to disconnect alleged file-sharers from the Internet, without solid
    >> > evidence or a court order
    >> > Seems that we will be in the same boat If Ozz is, plus the US free
    >> > trade
    >> > talks.
    >> >http://torrentfreak.com/secret-anti-piracy-treaty-turns-isps-into-

    >>
    >> pirates-091104/
    >>
    >> And - why is it being kept so secret?
    >> What is there to hide?


    To try and prevent popular debate on the matter before state parties
    > have initially signed the treaty. those promoting the treaty have so
    > far been able to do a lot of work on it without interference from
    > opponents, protestors, etc.
    >
    > The fundamental issue state parties are being confronted with is what
    > is a practical and effective way of protecting property interests in
    > creative works in a similar manner that owners of real estate and
    > other property are protected by society.
    >
    > It is very difficult to argue with the proposition that owners of
    > intellectual property would expect, in a civilised society, that the
    > state provides mechanisms to help protect their property rights.
    >
    > The issue then becomes one of how to protect these interests without
    > indue effect on ordinary human rights.


    Piracy is theft of property. You will have a very difficult time justifying
    that on grounds of "human rights".
     
    impossible, Nov 6, 2009
    #13
  14. Mary Hanna

    impossible Guest

    "geoff" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Mary Hanna wrote:
    >> Among other things, the ACTA draft calls for a global three-strikes
    >> policy to disconnect alleged file-sharers from the Internet, without
    >> solid evidence or a court order
    >>
    >>
    >> Seems that we will be in the same boat If Ozz is, plus the US free
    >> trade talks.
    >>
    >>
    >> http://torrentfreak.com/secret-anti-piracy-treaty-turns-isps-into-pirates-091104/

    >
    > Is that a 'per user' or a 'per connection' basis ? Seems a bit contrary
    > to natural justice to punish a whole household or organisation for the
    > actions of maybe one member.
    >
    >


    All internet connections require a contract between the ISP and the account
    holder. The account holder then has a responsibility to ensure that all
    users of that internet connection abide by the terms of use, which forbids
    piracy.
     
    impossible, Nov 6, 2009
    #14
  15. Mary Hanna

    Nik Coughlin Guest

    "impossible" <> wrote in message
    news:sSNIm.123094$la3.44800@attbi_s22...
    >
    > "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote in message
    > news:hcvc4s$l04$-september.org...
    >> "Msg. Scooter" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> On , , Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:15:04 +1300, Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and
    >>> with No
    >>> solid evidence of it., "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>"Mary Hanna" <> wrote in message
    >>>>news:...
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Among other things, the ACTA draft calls for a global three-strikes
    >>>>> policy
    >>>>> to
    >>>>> disconnect alleged file-sharers from the Internet, without solid
    >>>>> evidence
    >>>>> or a
    >>>>> court order
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Seems that we will be in the same boat If Ozz is, plus the US free
    >>>>> trade
    >>>>> talks.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> http://torrentfreak.com/secret-anti-piracy-treaty-turns-isps-into-pirates-091104/
    >>>>
    >>>>Also, makes non-commercial copyright infringement a criminal rather than
    >>>>a
    >>>>civil offense. Nice.
    >>>
    >>> It is really quite simple, don't pinch someone elses work.
    >>> What is so bloody difficult about that?

    >>
    >> Yeah, that's grossly oversimplified.
    >>
    >> I recently got an illegally duplicated copy of a book that I wanted to
    >> read but is out of print, and has been for 20 years. It's a collector's
    >> item and is hard to find, and if you do manage to find it goes for around
    >> US$8000 a copy. I'm not a collector, I just wanted to read it, I own
    >> legitimate copies of all of the author's other works, and it's the 2nd
    >> book in a trilogy that I have book 1 & 3 of.
    >>
    >> I guess I should have just stumped up the US$8000 or be prepared to do
    >> jail time huh.

    >
    > Yes.


    Care to explain who exactly I am stealing from? Book dealers reselling this
    book as a collector's item? I'm not stealing from the author because the
    book is out of print, so he can't make money from it no matter what happens.
    Besides which, I've legally bought *every* single one of his other books.

    I suppose we should also throw all music pirates in jail right?

    Norwegian study:
    http://www.zeropaid.com/news/86009/study-pirates-buy-10-times-more-music-than-they-steal/

    British study:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...pend-the-most-on-music-says-poll-1812776.html

    Canadian government study:
    http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/ippd-dppi.nsf/eng/ip01457.html
     
    Nik Coughlin, Nov 6, 2009
    #15
  16. Mary Hanna

    impossible Guest

    "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote in message
    news:hd0as9$7hg$-september.org...
    > "impossible" <> wrote in message
    > news:sSNIm.123094$la3.44800@attbi_s22...
    >>
    >> "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote in message
    >> news:hcvc4s$l04$-september.org...
    >>> "Msg. Scooter" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> On , , Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:15:04 +1300, Re: Well 3 stikes and you out
    >>>> and with No
    >>>> solid evidence of it., "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>"Mary Hanna" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>news:...
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Among other things, the ACTA draft calls for a global three-strikes
    >>>>>> policy
    >>>>>> to
    >>>>>> disconnect alleged file-sharers from the Internet, without solid
    >>>>>> evidence
    >>>>>> or a
    >>>>>> court order
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Seems that we will be in the same boat If Ozz is, plus the US free
    >>>>>> trade
    >>>>>> talks.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> http://torrentfreak.com/secret-anti-piracy-treaty-turns-isps-into-pirates-091104/
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Also, makes non-commercial copyright infringement a criminal rather
    >>>>>than a
    >>>>>civil offense. Nice.
    >>>>
    >>>> It is really quite simple, don't pinch someone elses work.
    >>>> What is so bloody difficult about that?
    >>>
    >>> Yeah, that's grossly oversimplified.
    >>>
    >>> I recently got an illegally duplicated copy of a book that I wanted to
    >>> read but is out of print, and has been for 20 years. It's a collector's
    >>> item and is hard to find, and if you do manage to find it goes for
    >>> around US$8000 a copy. I'm not a collector, I just wanted to read it, I
    >>> own legitimate copies of all of the author's other works, and it's the
    >>> 2nd book in a trilogy that I have book 1 & 3 of.
    >>>
    >>> I guess I should have just stumped up the US$8000 or be prepared to do
    >>> jail time huh.

    >>
    >> Yes.

    >
    > Care to explain who exactly I am stealing from?


    The copyright holder.

    > Book dealers reselling this book as a collector's item?


    No. The copyright holder. You have no right to their property.

    > I'm not stealing from the author because the book is out of print, so he
    > can't make money from it no matter what happens.


    Has the copyright expired? If not, you've infringed on copyright. Whether or
    not the copyright holder can, or wants to, make money from their work is
    completely beside the point. Without the permission of the copyright holder,
    you have no right to a copy of their work.

    > Besides which, I've legally bought *every* single one of his other books.
    >


    Don't be ridiculous! Just because you obey the law 364 days a year doesn't
    entitle you to violate it on the 365th.

    > I suppose we should also throw all music pirates in jail right?
    >


    Cutting off an internet pirate's internet connection seems sufficent in most
    cases.

    > Norwegian study:
    > http://www.zeropaid.com/news/86009/study-pirates-buy-10-times-more-music-than-they-steal/
    >
    > British study:
    > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...pend-the-most-on-music-says-poll-1812776.html
    >
    > Canadian government study:
    > http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/ippd-dppi.nsf/eng/ip01457.html


    LOL. Exatly how many $8000 books have you purchased since stealing the one
    you wanted.
     
    impossible, Nov 6, 2009
    #16
  17. Mary Hanna

    Nik Coughlin Guest

    "impossible" <> wrote in message
    news:%AOIm.117404$5n1.111584@attbi_s21...
    >
    > "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote in message
    > news:hd0as9$7hg$-september.org...
    >> "impossible" <> wrote in message
    >> news:sSNIm.123094$la3.44800@attbi_s22...
    >>>
    >>> "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:hcvc4s$l04$-september.org...
    >>>> "Msg. Scooter" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:...
    >>>>> On , , Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:15:04 +1300, Re: Well 3 stikes and you out
    >>>>> and with No
    >>>>> solid evidence of it., "Nik Coughlin" <> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>"Mary Hanna" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>>news:...
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Among other things, the ACTA draft calls for a global three-strikes
    >>>>>>> policy
    >>>>>>> to
    >>>>>>> disconnect alleged file-sharers from the Internet, without solid
    >>>>>>> evidence
    >>>>>>> or a
    >>>>>>> court order
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Seems that we will be in the same boat If Ozz is, plus the US free
    >>>>>>> trade
    >>>>>>> talks.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> http://torrentfreak.com/secret-anti-piracy-treaty-turns-isps-into-pirates-091104/
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Also, makes non-commercial copyright infringement a criminal rather
    >>>>>>than a
    >>>>>>civil offense. Nice.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> It is really quite simple, don't pinch someone elses work.
    >>>>> What is so bloody difficult about that?
    >>>>
    >>>> Yeah, that's grossly oversimplified.
    >>>>
    >>>> I recently got an illegally duplicated copy of a book that I wanted to
    >>>> read but is out of print, and has been for 20 years. It's a
    >>>> collector's item and is hard to find, and if you do manage to find it
    >>>> goes for around US$8000 a copy. I'm not a collector, I just wanted to
    >>>> read it, I own legitimate copies of all of the author's other works,
    >>>> and it's the 2nd book in a trilogy that I have book 1 & 3 of.
    >>>>
    >>>> I guess I should have just stumped up the US$8000 or be prepared to do
    >>>> jail time huh.
    >>>
    >>> Yes.

    >>
    >> Care to explain who exactly I am stealing from?

    >
    > The copyright holder.
    >
    >> Book dealers reselling this book as a collector's item?

    >
    > No. The copyright holder. You have no right to their property.


    The Theft Act: "A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates
    property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving
    the other of it"

    Oh dear, it appears that they no longer have their property as I have
    permanently deprived them of it... oh, wait.

    >> I'm not stealing from the author because the book is out of print, so he
    >> can't make money from it no matter what happens.

    >
    > Has the copyright expired? If not, you've infringed on copyright. Whether
    > or not the copyright holder can, or wants to, make money from their work
    > is completely beside the point. Without the permission of the copyright
    > holder, you have no right to a copy of their work.


    Why not?

    Because I did not purchase a physical copy of one of the extremely limited
    print runs?

    What if I borrowed the book from someone and read it, then gave it back to
    the owner?

    Please explain to me why that would be OK but printing a copy and reading it
    isn't.

    >> Besides which, I've legally bought *every* single one of his other books.
    >>

    >
    > Don't be ridiculous! Just because you obey the law 364 days a year doesn't
    > entitle you to violate it on the 365th.


    I don't obey the law 365 days a year, I only obey laws that I think are fair
    and just.

    Non-commercial copyright is not currently a criminal offence and nor should
    it become one.

    Copyright is seriously broken.

    We live in a world where the song Happy Birthday must be licensed to be
    performed in public:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Birthday_to_You#Copyright_status

    "The origins of "Happy Birthday To You" date back to the mid-nineteenth
    century"
    "The song is currently set to pass in to the public domain in 2030."

    I do not obey laws that I consider unjust or ridiculous. Nor should anyone.

    >> I suppose we should also throw all music pirates in jail right?
    >>

    >
    > Cutting off an internet pirate's internet connection seems sufficent in
    > most cases.


    And that of their family and anybody else who they live with?

    With no due process, merely an accusation being sufficient?

    Coming from the industry that accuses laser printers of copyright
    infringement?

    http://www.boingboing.net/2008/06/05/entertainment-indust-1.html

    But that's not the point, the point is that this new law, along with this
    provision of internet disconnection, changes non-commerical copyright
    infringement from being a civil matter to a criminal one.

    >> Norwegian study:
    >> http://www.zeropaid.com/news/86009/study-pirates-buy-10-times-more-music-than-they-steal/
    >>
    >> British study:
    >> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...pend-the-most-on-music-says-poll-1812776.html
    >>
    >> Canadian government study:
    >> http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/ippd-dppi.nsf/eng/ip01457.html

    >
    > LOL. Exatly how many $8000 books have you purchased since stealing the
    > one you wanted.


    What does the price point have to do with anything?

    Nothing, aside from it being an insurmountable obstacle for me to enjoy an
    important work, which I have harmed nobody by doing, nor deprived anybody of
    anything.

    At the same time I bought two more books from the same author, the other two
    in the trilogy, the first of which was bloody expensive as it was also out
    of print, but thankfully not a collector's item as is the 2nd (which had a
    smaller print run), which completed my collection of his works.

    And damn right I'll buy a legitimate copy of the 2nd book if they ever
    reprint it, you think I like having a print out of a PDF sitting in my book
    shelf amongst all the other nice books?
     
    Nik Coughlin, Nov 6, 2009
    #17
  18. Mary Hanna

    Nik Coughlin Guest

    "Msg. Scooter" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor
    > to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
    > Anatole France.


    Have you read the Red Lily? That whole passage drips with sarcasm:

    "For the poor it consists in sustaining and preserving the wealthy in their
    power and their laziness. The poor must work for this, in presence of the
    majestic quality of the law which prohibits the wealthy as well as the poor
    from sleeping under the bridges, from begging in the streets, and from
    stealing bread. That is one of the good effects of the Revolution. As this
    Revolution was made by fools and idiots for the benefit of those who
    acquired national lands, and resulted in nothing but making the fortune of
    crafty peasants and financiering bourgeois, the Revolution only made
    stronger, under the pretence of making all men equal, the empire of wealth.
    It has betrayed France into the hands of the men of wealth. They are masters
    and lords. The apparent government, composed of poor devils, is in the pay
    of the financiers. For one hundred years, in this poisoned country, whoever
    has loved the poor has been considered a traitor to society. A man is called
    dangerous when he says that there are wretched people. There are laws
    against indignation and pity, and what I say here could not go into print."
     
    Nik Coughlin, Nov 6, 2009
    #18
  19. Mary Hanna

    peterwn Guest

    Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and with No solid evidence of it.

    On Nov 6, 6:00 pm, "impossible" <> wrote:

    >
    > All internet connections require a contract between the ISP and the account
    > holder. The account holder then has a responsibility to ensure that all
    > users of that internet connection abide by the terms of use, which forbids
    > piracy.


    Thanks for advising us of Microsoft's stance on this matter, since you
    seem to be their mouthpiece on ng's.
     
    peterwn, Nov 6, 2009
    #19
  20. Mary Hanna

    Msg. Scooter Guest

    Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and with No solid evidence of it.

    On , , Fri, 6 Nov 2009 01:22:13 -0800 (PST), Re: Well 3 stikes and you out and
    with No solid evidence of it., peterwn <> wrote:

    >On Nov 6, 6:00 pm, "impossible" <> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> All internet connections require a contract between the ISP and the account
    >> holder. The account holder then has a responsibility to ensure that all
    >> users of that internet connection abide by the terms of use, which forbids
    >> piracy.

    >
    >Thanks for advising us of Microsoft's stance on this matter, since you
    >seem to be their mouthpiece on ng's.


    Pretty much like you being the National Parties mouthpiece on this group.

    --
    "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor
    to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
    Anatole France.
     
    Msg. Scooter, Nov 6, 2009
    #20
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