Website design & IP

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by SomebodyElse, Aug 17, 2005.

  1. SomebodyElse

    SomebodyElse Guest

    A few years ago I designed and created a website for a company. It was
    nothing groundbreaking or particularly brilliant, but at the time (for me)
    it was one of my better sites. Hosting was set up and I haven't had
    anything to do with it - from not long after it was created. I came across
    it today, pretty much by chance.

    When I created it I didn't put any 'created by ...' type attributions on
    the pages themselves, as is (or was) reasonably common, but I embedded in
    the code there was an html comment stating the creator (me) and my email
    address.

    Now, the website hasn't changed at all. The content is the same, the images
    are the same, even the indenting in the page source is the same. But the
    html comment I put in the page source with my details has been changed to
    'created by '.... the new host/web guru/whatever.

    I'm not against anybody claiming responsibility for their work, and if it
    had changed much I wouldn't be complaining, but as the site hasn't changed
    at all (except for the attribution) this smacks of fraud. By their 'Created
    by....' commment they are claiming to have created (and seem to be implying
    that they designed) the website. However this is just not true. All they
    have done is modify the html comment to say that they created the work, not
    me. None of the site design or content has been changed.

    What can I do here?
    Apart from contacting them and saying 'It's my work, credit me for it' what
    can I do about it? In theory if they just said 'yes, sorry, we'll fix it',
    and replace the comment in the code, that would probably be ok - a start
    anyway, but for I don't know how long they may have been using my work as a
    selling point - they've certainly been claiming it as their own. And I
    don't like it. This was my work and I was (still am) proud of it.

    Have any IP laws been broken? Have they been 'passing off' my work as their
    own?

    What's the guts?

    Cheers
    Scott
     
    SomebodyElse, Aug 17, 2005
    #1
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  2. SomebodyElse

    Harry Guest

    SomebodyElse wrote:

    > A few years ago I designed and created a website for a company. It was
    > nothing groundbreaking or particularly brilliant, but at the time (for me)
    > it was one of my better sites. Hosting was set up and I haven't had
    > anything to do with it - from not long after it was created. I came across
    > it today, pretty much by chance.
    >
    > When I created it I didn't put any 'created by ...' type attributions on
    > the pages themselves, as is (or was) reasonably common, but I embedded in
    > the code there was an html comment stating the creator (me) and my email
    > address.
    >
    > Now, the website hasn't changed at all. The content is the same, the
    > images are the same, even the indenting in the page source is the same.
    > But the html comment I put in the page source with my details has been
    > changed to 'created by '.... the new host/web guru/whatever.
    >
    > I'm not against anybody claiming responsibility for their work, and if it
    > had changed much I wouldn't be complaining, but as the site hasn't changed
    > at all (except for the attribution) this smacks of fraud. By their
    > 'Created by....' commment they are claiming to have created (and seem to
    > be implying that they designed) the website. However this is just not
    > true. All they have done is modify the html comment to say that they
    > created the work, not me. None of the site design or content has been
    > changed.
    >
    > What can I do here?
    > Apart from contacting them and saying 'It's my work, credit me for it'
    > what can I do about it? In theory if they just said 'yes, sorry, we'll fix
    > it', and replace the comment in the code, that would probably be ok - a
    > start anyway, but for I don't know how long they may have been using my
    > work as a selling point - they've certainly been claiming it as their own.
    > And I don't like it. This was my work and I was (still am) proud of it.
    >
    > Have any IP laws been broken? Have they been 'passing off' my work as
    > their own?
    >
    > What's the guts?


    If you have sold the website to a company then they now own it.

    You received money, they received website.
    That is a trade. You don't own anything on the website any more.
    Therefore they, or one of their employees, can do whatever they like.

    Unless, of course, they signed a contract which allows you to retain
    copyright for the website. Or they accepted terms and conditions which
    prevent them from making changes without your permission.

    But perhaps if you give them their money back then they might allow
    you to own the website you created for them.
     
    Harry, Aug 17, 2005
    #2
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  3. SomebodyElse

    mark Guest

    Harry <> wrote in
    news::

    > SomebodyElse wrote:
    >
    >> A few years ago I designed and created a website for a company. It
    >> was nothing groundbreaking or particularly brilliant, but at the time
    >> (for me) it was one of my better sites. Hosting was set up and I
    >> haven't had anything to do with it - from not long after it was
    >> created. I came across it today, pretty much by chance.
    >>
    >> When I created it I didn't put any 'created by ...' type attributions
    >> on the pages themselves, as is (or was) reasonably common, but I
    >> embedded in the code there was an html comment stating the creator
    >> (me) and my email address.
    >>
    >> Now, the website hasn't changed at all. The content is the same, the
    >> images are the same, even the indenting in the page source is the
    >> same. But the html comment I put in the page source with my details
    >> has been changed to 'created by '.... the new host/web guru/whatever.
    >>
    >> I'm not against anybody claiming responsibility for their work, and
    >> if it had changed much I wouldn't be complaining, but as the site
    >> hasn't changed at all (except for the attribution) this smacks of
    >> fraud. By their 'Created by....' commment they are claiming to have
    >> created (and seem to be implying that they designed) the website.
    >> However this is just not true. All they have done is modify the html
    >> comment to say that they created the work, not me. None of the site
    >> design or content has been changed.
    >>
    >> What can I do here?
    >> Apart from contacting them and saying 'It's my work, credit me for
    >> it' what can I do about it? In theory if they just said 'yes, sorry,
    >> we'll fix it', and replace the comment in the code, that would
    >> probably be ok - a start anyway, but for I don't know how long they
    >> may have been using my work as a selling point - they've certainly
    >> been claiming it as their own. And I don't like it. This was my work
    >> and I was (still am) proud of it.
    >>
    >> Have any IP laws been broken? Have they been 'passing off' my work as
    >> their own?
    >>
    >> What's the guts?

    >
    > If you have sold the website to a company then they now own it.
    >
    > You received money, they received website.
    > That is a trade. You don't own anything on the website any more.
    > Therefore they, or one of their employees, can do whatever they like.
    >
    > Unless, of course, they signed a contract which allows you to retain
    > copyright for the website. Or they accepted terms and conditions
    > which prevent them from making changes without your permission.
    >
    > But perhaps if you give them their money back then they might allow
    > you to own the website you created for them.
    >



    The question is not one of ownership, but rather one of fraud and false
    attribution. An comparable example would be book authors rights to be
    acknowledged as the writer.
     
    mark, Aug 17, 2005
    #3
  4. SomebodyElse

    Gavin Tunney Guest

    On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:32:21 +1200, SomebodyElse <>
    wrote:

    >A few years ago I designed and created a website for a company. It was
    >nothing groundbreaking or particularly brilliant, but at the time (for me)
    >it was one of my better sites. Hosting was set up and I haven't had
    >anything to do with it - from not long after it was created. I came across
    >it today, pretty much by chance.
    >
    >When I created it I didn't put any 'created by ...' type attributions on
    >the pages themselves, as is (or was) reasonably common, but I embedded in
    >the code there was an html comment stating the creator (me) and my email
    >address.
    >
    >Now, the website hasn't changed at all. The content is the same, the images
    >are the same, even the indenting in the page source is the same. But the
    >html comment I put in the page source with my details has been changed to
    >'created by '.... the new host/web guru/whatever.
    >
    >I'm not against anybody claiming responsibility for their work, and if it
    >had changed much I wouldn't be complaining, but as the site hasn't changed
    >at all (except for the attribution) this smacks of fraud. By their 'Created
    >by....' commment they are claiming to have created (and seem to be implying
    >that they designed) the website. However this is just not true. All they
    >have done is modify the html comment to say that they created the work, not
    >me. None of the site design or content has been changed.
    >
    >What can I do here?
    >Apart from contacting them and saying 'It's my work, credit me for it' what
    >can I do about it? In theory if they just said 'yes, sorry, we'll fix it',
    >and replace the comment in the code, that would probably be ok - a start
    >anyway, but for I don't know how long they may have been using my work as a
    >selling point - they've certainly been claiming it as their own. And I
    >don't like it. This was my work and I was (still am) proud of it.
    >
    >Have any IP laws been broken? Have they been 'passing off' my work as their
    >own?
    >


    That sounds a tricky one. Copyright is automatically granted to any
    original work, but chances are you passed on the copyright to whoever
    you did the work for if it was a typical contract job. Even then I
    don't believe they or anyone else can claim they created the site
    though, but have no idea whether that's a copyright or IP issue....
    must be something ;-)

    My understanding is that 'passing off' is when someone copies your
    work & alters it enough to make it look a bit different,... or just
    use parts of your work in among some of their own.

    Probably your best option is a polite request for them to change the
    words 'created by' to something like 'maintained by'.

    I can sympathise with your stance on it, I get people copying my work
    quite often & it pisses me off too. Main problem is copyright issues
    are bloody expensive & there's sweet FA you can do about it unless
    you've got deep pockets. High powered copyright lawyers run some $500
    per hour so it's not something you want to get too upset over ;-).

    Cheers

    Gavin
     
    Gavin Tunney, Aug 17, 2005
    #4
  5. SomebodyElse

    Nova Guest

    mark wrote:
    > Harry <> wrote in
    > news::
    >
    >
    >>SomebodyElse wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>A few years ago I designed and created a website for a company. It
    >>>was nothing groundbreaking or particularly brilliant, but at the time
    >>>(for me) it was one of my better sites. Hosting was set up and I
    >>>haven't had anything to do with it - from not long after it was
    >>>created. I came across it today, pretty much by chance.
    >>>
    >>>When I created it I didn't put any 'created by ...' type attributions
    >>>on the pages themselves, as is (or was) reasonably common, but I
    >>>embedded in the code there was an html comment stating the creator
    >>>(me) and my email address.
    >>>
    >>>Now, the website hasn't changed at all. The content is the same, the
    >>>images are the same, even the indenting in the page source is the
    >>>same. But the html comment I put in the page source with my details
    >>>has been changed to 'created by '.... the new host/web guru/whatever.
    >>>
    >>>I'm not against anybody claiming responsibility for their work, and
    >>>if it had changed much I wouldn't be complaining, but as the site
    >>>hasn't changed at all (except for the attribution) this smacks of
    >>>fraud. By their 'Created by....' commment they are claiming to have
    >>>created (and seem to be implying that they designed) the website.
    >>>However this is just not true. All they have done is modify the html
    >>>comment to say that they created the work, not me. None of the site
    >>>design or content has been changed.
    >>>
    >>>What can I do here?
    >>>Apart from contacting them and saying 'It's my work, credit me for
    >>>it' what can I do about it? In theory if they just said 'yes, sorry,
    >>>we'll fix it', and replace the comment in the code, that would
    >>>probably be ok - a start anyway, but for I don't know how long they
    >>>may have been using my work as a selling point - they've certainly
    >>>been claiming it as their own. And I don't like it. This was my work
    >>>and I was (still am) proud of it.
    >>>
    >>>Have any IP laws been broken? Have they been 'passing off' my work as
    >>>their own?
    >>>
    >>>What's the guts?

    >>
    >>If you have sold the website to a company then they now own it.
    >>
    >>You received money, they received website.
    >>That is a trade. You don't own anything on the website any more.
    >>Therefore they, or one of their employees, can do whatever they like.
    >>
    >>Unless, of course, they signed a contract which allows you to retain
    >>copyright for the website. Or they accepted terms and conditions
    >>which prevent them from making changes without your permission.
    >>
    >>But perhaps if you give them their money back then they might allow
    >>you to own the website you created for them.
    >>

    >
    >
    >
    > The question is not one of ownership, but rather one of fraud and false
    > attribution. An comparable example would be book authors rights to be
    > acknowledged as the writer.


    Does a writer actually sell ownership of what he writes? or just the
    publishing rights?
     
    Nova, Aug 17, 2005
    #5
  6. SomebodyElse

    Stu Fleming Guest

    SomebodyElse wrote:
    > Have any IP laws been broken? Have they been 'passing off' my work as their
    > own?


    If you were working for hire, the company that now owns the Website can do
    what they like with it.

    If you were working under a contract, the IP terms will be whatever terms
    exist in that contract.

    > What's the guts?


    You have (or had) copyright by default on authoring the work. If you asserted
    your right to be identified as author of a work at that time, you have
    protection and can claim that right. (I am not 100% sure if assertion of
    authorship is automatic as copyright is, or whetehr you need to make an
    explicit declaration.)

    HOWEVER, if you did the project as "work for hire" and there was no explicit
    contract, that copyright could be deemed to have transferred to the company
    (you need alawyer to clarify that interpretation). If you had a contract with
    an explicit statement of copyright and IP, then your rights are whatever are
    in that contract.

    Summary: unless you had an agreement or contract with explicit IP and
    copyright, you have no rights to assert authorship/ownership at this point.

    Stu
    (Current motto: contract law trumps practically everything else.)

    --
    IT Management. Tel: +64 3 479 5478
    Web and database hosting, Co-location. Web: http://www.wic.co.nz
    Software development. Email:
     
    Stu Fleming, Aug 18, 2005
    #6
  7. SomebodyElse

    Rob Guest

    "SomebodyElse" <> wrote in message
    news:3ffq5v0y95di$...
    > A few years ago I designed and created a website for a company. It was
    > nothing groundbreaking or particularly brilliant, but at the time (for me)
    > it was one of my better sites. Hosting was set up and I haven't had
    > anything to do with it - from not long after it was created. I came across
    > it today, pretty much by chance.
    >
    > When I created it I didn't put any 'created by ...' type attributions on
    > the pages themselves, as is (or was) reasonably common, but I embedded in
    > the code there was an html comment stating the creator (me) and my email
    > address.
    >
    > Now, the website hasn't changed at all. The content is the same, the

    images
    > are the same, even the indenting in the page source is the same. But the
    > html comment I put in the page source with my details has been changed to
    > 'created by '.... the new host/web guru/whatever.
    >
    > I'm not against anybody claiming responsibility for their work, and if it
    > had changed much I wouldn't be complaining, but as the site hasn't changed
    > at all (except for the attribution) this smacks of fraud. By their

    'Created
    > by....' commment they are claiming to have created (and seem to be

    implying
    > that they designed) the website. However this is just not true. All they
    > have done is modify the html comment to say that they created the work,

    not
    > me. None of the site design or content has been changed.
    >
    > What can I do here?
    > Apart from contacting them and saying 'It's my work, credit me for it'

    what
    > can I do about it? In theory if they just said 'yes, sorry, we'll fix it',
    > and replace the comment in the code, that would probably be ok - a start
    > anyway, but for I don't know how long they may have been using my work as

    a
    > selling point - they've certainly been claiming it as their own. And I
    > don't like it. This was my work and I was (still am) proud of it.
    >
    > Have any IP laws been broken? Have they been 'passing off' my work as

    their
    > own?
    >
    > What's the guts?
    >
    > Cheers
    > Scott


    I had exactly the same thing happen to one I made, however I had , designed
    by at the bottom of each page. I contacted the compnay that had changed the
    'designed by' to their own comapnies name, and they just ignored it. Not
    much you can do and is it wortht he hassle?
     
    Rob, Aug 18, 2005
    #7
  8. SomebodyElse

    Harry Guest

    mark wrote:

    > Harry <> wrote in
    > news::
    >
    >> SomebodyElse wrote:
    >>
    >>> A few years ago I designed and created a website for a company. It
    >>> was nothing groundbreaking or particularly brilliant, but at the time
    >>> (for me) it was one of my better sites. Hosting was set up and I
    >>> haven't had anything to do with it - from not long after it was
    >>> created. I came across it today, pretty much by chance.
    >>>
    >>> When I created it I didn't put any 'created by ...' type attributions
    >>> on the pages themselves, as is (or was) reasonably common, but I
    >>> embedded in the code there was an html comment stating the creator
    >>> (me) and my email address.
    >>>
    >>> Now, the website hasn't changed at all. The content is the same, the
    >>> images are the same, even the indenting in the page source is the
    >>> same. But the html comment I put in the page source with my details
    >>> has been changed to 'created by '.... the new host/web guru/whatever.
    >>>
    >>> I'm not against anybody claiming responsibility for their work, and
    >>> if it had changed much I wouldn't be complaining, but as the site
    >>> hasn't changed at all (except for the attribution) this smacks of
    >>> fraud. By their 'Created by....' commment they are claiming to have
    >>> created (and seem to be implying that they designed) the website.
    >>> However this is just not true. All they have done is modify the html
    >>> comment to say that they created the work, not me. None of the site
    >>> design or content has been changed.
    >>>
    >>> What can I do here?
    >>> Apart from contacting them and saying 'It's my work, credit me for
    >>> it' what can I do about it? In theory if they just said 'yes, sorry,
    >>> we'll fix it', and replace the comment in the code, that would
    >>> probably be ok - a start anyway, but for I don't know how long they
    >>> may have been using my work as a selling point - they've certainly
    >>> been claiming it as their own. And I don't like it. This was my work
    >>> and I was (still am) proud of it.
    >>>
    >>> Have any IP laws been broken? Have they been 'passing off' my work as
    >>> their own?
    >>>
    >>> What's the guts?

    >>
    >> If you have sold the website to a company then they now own it.
    >>
    >> You received money, they received website.
    >> That is a trade. You don't own anything on the website any more.
    >> Therefore they, or one of their employees, can do whatever they like.
    >>
    >> Unless, of course, they signed a contract which allows you to retain
    >> copyright for the website. Or they accepted terms and conditions
    >> which prevent them from making changes without your permission.
    >>
    >> But perhaps if you give them their money back then they might allow
    >> you to own the website you created for them.
    >>

    >
    >
    > The question is not one of ownership, but rather one of fraud and false
    > attribution. An comparable example would be book authors rights to be
    > acknowledged as the writer.


    A person is fully entitled to put their name on something if they
    contributed to its creation. Just uploading a set of files to a web
    server could be considered an adequate contribution.

    People do this all the time when they create web pages based on templates,
    or even when they write programs using various tools. Suppose you write
    a program and compile it but take full credit for its creation. You have
    usurped the compiler authors' contributions. Would that be fair?
     
    Harry, Aug 18, 2005
    #8
  9. In article <4303c7ee$>, Stu Fleming <>
    wrote:

    >Summary: unless you had an agreement or contract with explicit IP and
    >copyright, you have no rights to assert authorship/ownership at this point.


    There's a difference between copyright (right to copy) and moral right
    to assert authorship. Copyright may be transferable, but the fact that
    you wrote something and nobody else did is not transferable. Contract
    law doesn't give you the right to tell lies.
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Aug 21, 2005
    #9
  10. In article <>,
    Harry <> wrote:

    >A person is fully entitled to put their name on something if they
    >contributed to its creation. Just uploading a set of files to a web
    >server could be considered an adequate contribution.
    >
    >People do this all the time when they create web pages based on templates,
    >or even when they write programs using various tools. Suppose you write
    >a program and compile it but take full credit for its creation. You have
    >usurped the compiler authors' contributions. Would that be fair?


    Yes it would, because compilers and other such code generators are
    designed to be used that way.

    Taking some existing HTML page and modifyiing it in a nontrivial way
    gives you the right to add your own name as an author, but it doesn't
    necessarily give you the right to remove the names of other authors.

    Look at open-source projects, where contributions often come from too
    many people to be individually listed. Even then, you will typically
    find an acknowledgement that others contributed to the code besides
    those explicitly named.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Aug 21, 2005
    #10
  11. SomebodyElse

    SomebodyElse Guest

    On 18 Aug 2005 10:37:57 +1200, mark wrote:

    > Harry <> wrote in
    > news::
    >
    >> SomebodyElse wrote:
    >>
    >>> A few years ago I designed and created a website for a company. It
    >>> was nothing groundbreaking or particularly brilliant, but at the time
    >>> (for me) it was one of my better sites. Hosting was set up and I
    >>> haven't had anything to do with it - from not long after it was
    >>> created. I came across it today, pretty much by chance.
    >>>
    >>> When I created it I didn't put any 'created by ...' type attributions
    >>> on the pages themselves, as is (or was) reasonably common, but I
    >>> embedded in the code there was an html comment stating the creator
    >>> (me) and my email address.
    >>>
    >>> Now, the website hasn't changed at all. The content is the same, the
    >>> images are the same, even the indenting in the page source is the
    >>> same. But the html comment I put in the page source with my details
    >>> has been changed to 'created by '.... the new host/web guru/whatever.
    >>>
    >>> I'm not against anybody claiming responsibility for their work, and
    >>> if it had changed much I wouldn't be complaining, but as the site
    >>> hasn't changed at all (except for the attribution) this smacks of
    >>> fraud. By their 'Created by....' commment they are claiming to have
    >>> created (and seem to be implying that they designed) the website.
    >>> However this is just not true. All they have done is modify the html
    >>> comment to say that they created the work, not me. None of the site
    >>> design or content has been changed.
    >>>
    >>> What can I do here?
    >>> Apart from contacting them and saying 'It's my work, credit me for
    >>> it' what can I do about it? In theory if they just said 'yes, sorry,
    >>> we'll fix it', and replace the comment in the code, that would
    >>> probably be ok - a start anyway, but for I don't know how long they
    >>> may have been using my work as a selling point - they've certainly
    >>> been claiming it as their own. And I don't like it. This was my work
    >>> and I was (still am) proud of it.
    >>>
    >>> Have any IP laws been broken? Have they been 'passing off' my work as
    >>> their own?
    >>>
    >>> What's the guts?

    >>
    >> If you have sold the website to a company then they now own it.
    >>
    >> You received money, they received website.
    >> That is a trade. You don't own anything on the website any more.
    >> Therefore they, or one of their employees, can do whatever they like.
    >>
    >> Unless, of course, they signed a contract which allows you to retain
    >> copyright for the website. Or they accepted terms and conditions
    >> which prevent them from making changes without your permission.
    >>
    >> But perhaps if you give them their money back then they might allow
    >> you to own the website you created for them.
    >>

    >
    >
    > The question is not one of ownership, but rather one of fraud and false
    > attribution. An comparable example would be book authors rights to be
    > acknowledged as the writer.


    That's right.

    My issue here is not about ownership. I fully accept and am perfectly happy
    that I retain no ownership rights. They can modify it however and whenever
    they like, but claiming to have designed and created it, by changing only
    my name, is misleading and untrue. I wouldn't have an issue at all if the
    content or design had been modified at all, however small that change might
    be, but no change has been made.

    I'm not terribly worried about it. Just a little pissed off.

    Its a bit like somebody signing a painting that they didn't paint, but I
    guess since that's fine for our esteemed prime minister, it's fine for the
    rest of the population :)
     
    SomebodyElse, Aug 23, 2005
    #11
  12. SomebodyElse

    steve Guest

    SomebodyElse wrote:

    .........

    > What can I do here?
    > Apart from contacting them and saying 'It's my work, credit me for it' what
    > can I do about it? In theory if they just said 'yes, sorry, we'll fix it',
    > and replace the comment in the code, that would probably be ok - a start
    > anyway, but for I don't know how long they may have been using my work as a
    > selling point - they've certainly been claiming it as their own. And I
    > don't like it. This was my work and I was (still am) proud of it.
    >
    > Have any IP laws been broken? Have they been 'passing off' my work as their
    > own?
    >
    > What's the guts?
    >
    > Cheers
    > Scott


    They were employing you. What were the terms of your contract with
    respect to the IP?

    If you don't know - or there weren't any - then this would have big
    impact on any legal understanding of your position.
     
    steve, Aug 23, 2005
    #12
  13. SomebodyElse

    Bling-Bling Guest

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:25:36 +1200, SomebodyElse wrote:

    >> The question is not one of ownership, but rather one of fraud and false
    >> attribution. An comparable example would be book authors rights to be
    >> acknowledged as the writer.

    >
    > That's right.
    >
    > My issue here is not about ownership. I fully accept and am perfectly happy
    > that I retain no ownership rights. They can modify it however and whenever
    > they like, but claiming to have designed and created it, by changing only
    > my name, is misleading and untrue. I wouldn't have an issue at all if the
    > content or design had been modified at all, however small that change might
    > be, but no change has been made.


    Ownership aside, what you're discussing is a question of authorship.

    If *you* threw that website together, then you are the author of that
    website. Don't authors have some rights about being known as the author
    even if they no longer hold the copyright?


    Bling Bling

    --
    Fink: "The Linux market is growing 30% to 35% a year."
     
    Bling-Bling, Aug 27, 2005
    #13
    1. Advertising

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