Way off topic... question on states of a metal

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by T.N.O., Dec 21, 2003.

  1. T.N.O.

    T.N.O. Guest

    Ok, so, water has ICE, Water, and Steam(a few others from what I have
    read but these are the ones I want to concentrate on...)

    So, my question is, does steal have a "gas" state? and if so, from what
    temp?
     
    T.N.O., Dec 21, 2003
    #1
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  2. "T.N.O." <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Ok, so, water has ICE, Water, and Steam(a few others from what I have
    > read but these are the ones I want to concentrate on...)
    >
    > So, my question is, does steal have a "gas" state? and if so, from what
    > temp?


    For a sorted list of pure elemental melting and boiling points, try
    http://www.science.co.il/PTelements.asp?s=BP

    Steel? An alloy, so it depends on the various component metals, but is
    usually around 2500F (1370C)
     
    forensic analysis, Dec 21, 2003
    #2
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  3. T.N.O.

    Brendan Guest

    On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:15:26 +1300, T.N.O. wrote:

    > Ok, so, water has ICE, Water, and Steam(a few others from what I have
    > read but these are the ones I want to concentrate on...)
    >
    > So, my question is, does steal have a "gas" state? and if so, from what
    > temp?


    Steal is not a metal.

    Steel however does vapourise at about 1400C. Other metals - like aluminium
    and lead - much lower.

    Breathing in vapourised steel can is good for clearing head colds.

    --

    .... Brendan

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
    think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
    If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
    I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
    of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
    the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Note: All comments are copyright 2003, and are opinion only where not
    otherwise stated, and always 'to the best of my reccollection'.
     
    Brendan, Dec 21, 2003
    #3
  4. T.N.O.

    T.N.O. Guest

    forensic analysis wrote:
    > For a sorted list of pure elemental melting and boiling points, try
    > http://www.science.co.il/PTelements.asp?s=BP


    Thanks for the link. reading it now.

    > Steel? An alloy, so it depends on the various component metals, but is
    > usually around 2500F (1370C)


    ok, hows about alumin(i)um or some other metals?
    The site lists boiling and melting temps, but doesnt really say about a
    gaseous state.
     
    T.N.O., Dec 21, 2003
    #4
  5. T.N.O.

    -[Myth]- Guest

    On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:41:19 +1300, forensic analysis wrote:

    > "T.N.O." <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Ok, so, water has ICE, Water, and Steam(a few others from what I have
    >> read but these are the ones I want to concentrate on...)
    >>
    >> So, my question is, does steal have a "gas" state? and if so, from what
    >> temp?

    >
    > For a sorted list of pure elemental melting and boiling points, try
    > http://www.science.co.il/PTelements.asp?s=BP
    >
    > Steel? An alloy, so it depends on the various component metals, but is
    > usually around 2500F (1370C)


    That is the melting point, not the boiling point. Pure iron will boil at
    3000°C, but am not sure about steel.
     
    -[Myth]-, Dec 21, 2003
    #5
  6. T.N.O.

    Jerry Guest

    On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 02:28:24 +1300, Brendan
    <corum.usenet@myrealbox....com> wrote:

    >On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:15:26 +1300, T.N.O. wrote:
    >
    >> Ok, so, water has ICE, Water, and Steam(a few others from what I have
    >> read but these are the ones I want to concentrate on...)
    >>
    >> So, my question is, does steal have a "gas" state? and if so, from what
    >> temp?

    >
    >Steal is not a metal.
    >
    >Steel however does vapourise at about 1400C. Other metals - like aluminium
    >and lead - much lower.
    >
    >Breathing in vapourised steel can is good for clearing head colds.


    Don't go swimming after you do it though, you will sink like a stone

    Jerry
     
    Jerry, Dec 21, 2003
    #6
  7. T.N.O.

    T.N.O. Guest

    forensic analysis wrote:
    >>The site lists boiling and melting temps, but doesnt really say about a
    >>gaseous state.


    > Melting Point = Transitional state of an element from solid to liquid
    > Boiling Point = Transitional state of an element from liquid to gas
    > Hence Boiling Point temperature provides an indication to conversion to
    > gaseous state. ie water 100C


    heh, good point... interesting really, I never thought of these things
    being a gas before, and it kinda occured to me when I was in a drunken
    stupor.

    > The temperature provided above for Steel is an indicative melting point only
    > ie solid to liquid, as there are many different alloy variants derived from
    > an iron base. By heating steel from a liquid state a range of component
    > elements will progressively evaporate until a residue is left, which would
    > likely be carbon with a Boiling Point of 4827C.


    Interesting... so the bonding would break down with the heat then... and
    you would get a more pure metal(well, more pure "what ever the hell is
    the highest boiling" substance in it).

    > Aluminium is listed on the page - 660C for liquid (MP) and 2467 for gas (BP)
    > Click on the "Name" column if you wish to view in alphabetical order, rather
    > than by Boiling Point temperature.


    Thanks, very helpful.
     
    T.N.O., Dec 21, 2003
    #7
  8. "T.N.O." <> wrote in message
    news:bs4sc4$97d2g$-berlin.de...
    > forensic analysis wrote:
    > > For a sorted list of pure elemental melting and boiling points, try
    > > http://www.science.co.il/PTelements.asp?s=BP

    >
    > Thanks for the link. reading it now.
    >
    > > Steel? An alloy, so it depends on the various component metals, but is
    > > usually around 2500F (1370C)

    >
    > ok, hows about alumin(i)um or some other metals?
    > The site lists boiling and melting temps, but doesnt really say about a
    > gaseous state.


    Melting Point = Transitional state of an element from solid to liquid
    Boiling Point = Transitional state of an element from liquid to gas

    Hence Boiling Point temperature provides an indication to conversion to
    gaseous state. ie water 100C

    The temperature provided above for Steel is an indicative melting point only
    ie solid to liquid, as there are many different alloy variants derived from
    an iron base. By heating steel from a liquid state a range of component
    elements will progressively evaporate until a residue is left, which would
    likely be carbon with a Boiling Point of 4827C.

    Aluminium is listed on the page - 660C for liquid (MP) and 2467 for gas (BP)

    Click on the "Name" column if you wish to view in alphabetical order, rather
    than by Boiling Point temperature.
     
    forensic analysis, Dec 21, 2003
    #8
  9. T.N.O.

    AD. Guest

    On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:42:04 +1300, T.N.O. wrote:

    >> The temperature provided above for Steel is an indicative melting point
    >> only ie solid to liquid, as there are many different alloy variants
    >> derived from an iron base. By heating steel from a liquid state a range
    >> of component elements will progressively evaporate until a residue is
    >> left, which would likely be carbon with a Boiling Point of 4827C.

    >
    > Interesting... so the bonding would break down with the heat then... and
    > you would get a more pure metal(well, more pure "what ever the hell is the
    > highest boiling" substance in it).


    Sounds like distillation. Compounds don't usually chemically break down
    when they evaporate - eg Water, Ethanol etc.

    I think (I don't actually know) the reason steel would break down as
    mentioned is that the carbon and iron etc aren't chemically bonded
    together - just mixed in together. This would presumably be the same for
    other alloys too.

    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Dec 21, 2003
    #9
  10. T.N.O.

    Brendan Guest

    On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:55:52 +1300, Jerry wrote:

    > On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 02:28:24 +1300, Brendan
    > <corum.usenet@myrealbox....com> wrote:
    >
    >>On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:15:26 +1300, T.N.O. wrote:
    >>
    >>> Ok, so, water has ICE, Water, and Steam(a few others from what I have
    >>> read but these are the ones I want to concentrate on...)
    >>>
    >>> So, my question is, does steal have a "gas" state? and if so, from what
    >>> temp?

    >>
    >>Steal is not a metal.
    >>
    >>Steel however does vapourise at about 1400C. Other metals - like aluminium
    >>and lead - much lower.


    Opps, that's the boiling point.

    >>Breathing in vapourised steel can is good for clearing head colds.

    >
    > Don't go swimming after you do it though, you will sink like a stone


    Whine whine ;)

    --

    .... Brendan

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    communist, n: A person who questions the doctrine that the USA
    are God's chosen people, the Corporation is the One True Church, and that
    ownership of all human and natural resources (and copyrights/patents on
    all possible forms of human expression) throughout the world should by
    divine right be owned by US Corporations.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Note: All comments are copyright 2003, and are opinion only where not
    otherwise stated, and always 'to the best of my reccollection'.
     
    Brendan, Dec 22, 2003
    #10
  11. T.N.O.

    Brendan Guest

    On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:39:35 +1300, Brendan wrote:

    >>>Steel however does vapourise at about 1400C. Other metals - like aluminium
    >>>and lead - much lower.

    >
    > Opps, that's the boiling point.


    Fucking hell: THE *MELTING* POINT.

    I blame woger.

    --

    .... Brendan

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Two wrongs don't make a very good excuse...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Note: All comments are copyright 2003, and are opinion only where not
    otherwise stated, and always 'to the best of my reccollection'.
     
    Brendan, Dec 22, 2003
    #11
  12. T.N.O.

    Jerry Guest

    On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:31:19 +1300, Brendan
    <corum.usenet@myrealbox....com> wrote:

    >On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:39:35 +1300, Brendan wrote:
    >
    >>>>Steel however does vapourise at about 1400C. Other metals - like aluminium
    >>>>and lead - much lower.

    >>
    >> Opps, that's the boiling point.

    >
    >Fucking hell: THE *MELTING* POINT.
    >
    >I blame woger.


    Whatever, it does something spectacular at that point and you don't
    want to get any on you ;)

    Jerry
     
    Jerry, Dec 22, 2003
    #12
  13. T.N.O.

    gromit Guest

    T.N.O. wrote:

    > forensic analysis wrote:
    >> For a sorted list of pure elemental melting and boiling points, try
    >> http://www.science.co.il/PTelements.asp?s=BP

    >
    > Thanks for the link. reading it now.
    >
    >> Steel? An alloy, so it depends on the various component metals, but is
    >> usually around 2500F (1370C)

    >
    > ok, hows about alumin(i)um or some other metals?
    > The site lists boiling and melting temps, but doesnt really say about a
    > gaseous state.




    Gaseous state is the boiling point ..... and is the point at which the
    vapour pressure equals atmospheric pressure.


    Mercury is a good example of a metal with a very low boiling point and hence
    a high vapour pressure ..... good for making mercury vapour light tubes
    ..... but not much good for humans to breathe.
     
    gromit, Dec 22, 2003
    #13
  14. T.N.O.

    gromit Guest

    AD. wrote:

    > On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:42:04 +1300, T.N.O. wrote:
    >
    >>> The temperature provided above for Steel is an indicative melting point
    >>> only ie solid to liquid, as there are many different alloy variants
    >>> derived from an iron base. By heating steel from a liquid state a range
    >>> of component elements will progressively evaporate until a residue is
    >>> left, which would likely be carbon with a Boiling Point of 4827C.

    >>
    >> Interesting... so the bonding would break down with the heat then... and
    >> you would get a more pure metal(well, more pure "what ever the hell is
    >> the highest boiling" substance in it).

    >
    > Sounds like distillation. Compounds don't usually chemically break down
    > when they evaporate - eg Water, Ethanol etc.
    >
    > I think (I don't actually know) the reason steel would break down as
    > mentioned is that the carbon and iron etc aren't chemically bonded
    > together - just mixed in together. This would presumably be the same for
    > other alloys too.
    >
    > Cheers
    > Anton



    Yep, they're bonded OK. Iron Carbide ...... Bainite, Upper Troosite and
    all that jazz.
     
    gromit, Dec 22, 2003
    #14
  15. T.N.O.

    Enkidu Guest

    On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:42:04 +1300, "T.N.O." <> wrote:
    >
    >Interesting... so the bonding would break down with the heat then... and
    >you would get a more pure metal(well, more pure "what ever the hell is
    >the highest boiling" substance in it).
    >

    The Romans used to refine lead by boiling it and sending it through
    tunnels. Then they sent slaves down to scrape it off the walls. They
    got through a lot of slaves.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    Christmas comes but once a year, thank the gods. I don't think
    that I could cope with twice.
     
    Enkidu, Dec 22, 2003
    #15
  16. "AD." <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:42:04 +1300, T.N.O. wrote:
    >
    > >> The temperature provided above for Steel is an indicative melting point
    > >> only ie solid to liquid, as there are many different alloy variants
    > >> derived from an iron base. By heating steel from a liquid state a

    range
    > >> of component elements will progressively evaporate until a residue is
    > >> left, which would likely be carbon with a Boiling Point of 4827C.

    > >
    > > Interesting... so the bonding would break down with the heat then... and
    > > you would get a more pure metal(well, more pure "what ever the hell is

    the
    > > highest boiling" substance in it).

    >
    > Sounds like distillation. Compounds don't usually chemically break down
    > when they evaporate - eg Water, Ethanol etc.
    >
    > I think (I don't actually know) the reason steel would break down as
    > mentioned is that the carbon and iron etc aren't chemically bonded
    > together - just mixed in together. This would presumably be the same for
    > other alloys too.


    Can be in solution or bonded.

    You can find an interesting technical analysis document at
    http://www.rigakumsc.com/journal/Vol15.1.1998/wheeler.pdf

    "As iron can occur in a body centered cubic structure called alpha iron to a
    face centered cubic structure known as gamma iron, their properties are
    quite different. When carbon is added to iron it is known that it only has
    slight solubility in alpha iron. Gamma iron, however, can hold up to two
    percent carbon in solution at 1100 degree C. The alpha iron containing
    carbon is called ferrite and the gamma iron containing elements in solid
    solution is called austenite. When not in solid solution, the iron forms
    iron carbide (Fe3C) which is extremely hard and brittle and is known as
    cementite."
     
    forensic analysis, Dec 22, 2003
    #16
  17. In article <>, "forensic analysis" <look@me>
    wrote:

    >You can find an interesting technical analysis document at
    >http://www.rigakumsc.com/journal/Vol15.1.1998/wheeler.pdf
    >
    >"As iron can occur in a body centered cubic structure called alpha iron to a
    >face centered cubic structure known as gamma iron, their properties are
    >quite different.


    I imagine their densities would be different as well. Face-centred cubic
    would be denser than body-centred cubic. Would the denser form also be
    the stable, lower-energy state? (That is, alpha could spontaneously turn
    into gamma.)

    >The alpha iron containing
    >carbon is called ferrite and the gamma iron containing elements in solid
    >solution is called austenite.


    So THAT's what ferrite is. It was used as the core for medium-wave radio
    antennas--something about its magnetic properties, I guess.
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Dec 23, 2003
    #17
  18. In article <rvxFb.14087$>,
    gromit <> wrote:

    >Gaseous state is the boiling point ..... and is the point at which the
    >vapour pressure equals atmospheric pressure.


    In other words, all liquids will boil in a vacuum--the liquid state is
    unstable at zero ambient pressure.

    And I believe at sufficiently high ambient pressures, the liquid and
    gaseous phases actually merge into one, called the "supercritical"
    phase. For instance, supercritical CO2 has become very useful as an
    industrial solvent (for making decaffeinated coffee, among other things)
    because all you have to do when you've finished with it is lower the
    pressure and it evaporates, leaving zero toxic traces behind.

    Lawrence
    once read a story featuring a low-temperature phase of ice called "Ice
    IV", which was supposedly stronger than steel
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Dec 23, 2003
    #18
  19. Re: Way, Way, Way off topic... question on states of a metal

    "Lawrence D¹Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <>, "forensic analysis" <look@me>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >You can find an interesting technical analysis document at
    > >http://www.rigakumsc.com/journal/Vol15.1.1998/wheeler.pdf
    > >
    > >"As iron can occur in a body centered cubic structure called alpha iron

    to a
    > >face centered cubic structure known as gamma iron, their properties are
    > >quite different.

    >
    > I imagine their densities would be different as well. Face-centred cubic
    > would be denser than body-centred cubic. Would the denser form also be
    > the stable, lower-energy state? (That is, alpha could spontaneously turn
    > into gamma.)


    Well I suppose this is where we get into discussion on allotropy and phase
    changes. and that's where it starts to get really interesting.

    "Four changes occur in iron, which give rise to forms known as alpha, beta,
    gamma and delta. Of these, a, b and d forms have the same atomic structure
    (body centred cubic) while g -iron has a face centred cubic structure. Iron
    can, therefore, be considered to have two allotropic modifications."

    "Pure iron is one metal that changes from one of these crystalline
    structures to another while remaining solid. It's BCC at temperatures up to
    1,670 degrees F. But from 1,670 to 2,535 degrees F, it's FCC. Then from
    2,535 to the melting temperature of 2,795 degrees F, it goes back to BCC."

    Some useful online resources;

    Steel structure http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art3.htm
    General phases and structures
    http://www.thefabricator.com/xp/Fabricator/Articles/Welding/Weld03/03web253.xml
    Detailed steel phase diagram
    http://www.sv.vt.edu/classes/MSE2094_NoteBook/96ClassProj/examples/kimcon.html
     
    forensic analysis, Dec 23, 2003
    #19
  20. On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:33:35 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > once read a story featuring a low-temperature phase of ice called "Ice
    > IV", which was supposedly stronger than steel


    Are you sure you're not confusing it with a high temperature form named
    Ice-9? (Kurt Vonnegut Jr, "Cats Cradle")
     
    Uncle StoatWarbler, Dec 25, 2003
    #20
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