WARNING: TelstraClear cable traffic charging

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Daniel, Apr 23, 2006.

  1. Daniel

    Daniel Guest

    Switched over to the new 5G plan recently (from the old 1G plan with
    national split).

    Checked my "usage" recently with the new usage interface, and was rather
    curious as to why they no longer specified IP addresses in the usage
    listing (so you could see where your traffic was going to or coming
    from) - just upstream and downstream totals for a given period.

    I also noticed a significant increase in traffic usage, and so did
    a little investigating.

    I discovered to my annoyance that with the new plans you get charged for
    everything and anything. This includes broadcast traffic - certainly not
    the case with my previous plan.

    The only way to stop getting charged for traffic, is to simply put the
    cable modem into standby (turning off the PC is not enough).

    This raises a few interesting points:-
    * A malicious user can simply flood your cable modem with DoS attacks
    (or just ping it like crazy), and that will count towards your usage
    * If you like to run your PC/server 24x7 (or even just have a "live"
    connection to the internet during normal usage to make yourself
    available for instant messaging, Skype etc), then you need to monitor
    your usage very carefully
    * Unless you a have traffic monitoring tool (ie. NTop, or Ethereal),
    there is no other way of establishing exactly where the traffic you are
    being charged for comes from or is going to

    Something to think about if you're on one of the old plans with the
    national split and are contemplating a switch to one of the new plans.
     
    Daniel, Apr 23, 2006
    #1
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  2. Daniel

    thingy Guest

    Daniel wrote:
    > Switched over to the new 5G plan recently (from the old 1G plan with
    > national split).
    >
    > Checked my "usage" recently with the new usage interface, and was rather
    > curious as to why they no longer specified IP addresses in the usage
    > listing (so you could see where your traffic was going to or coming
    > from) - just upstream and downstream totals for a given period.
    >
    > I also noticed a significant increase in traffic usage, and so did
    > a little investigating.
    >
    > I discovered to my annoyance that with the new plans you get charged for
    > everything and anything. This includes broadcast traffic - certainly not
    > the case with my previous plan.


    No it was not...

    > The only way to stop getting charged for traffic, is to simply put the
    > cable modem into standby (turning off the PC is not enough).
    >
    > This raises a few interesting points:-
    > * A malicious user can simply flood your cable modem with DoS attacks
    > (or just ping it like crazy), and that will count towards your usage


    This happened with the old plan unless you noticed and complained...ie I
    got dos'd with 5 gig of data in 3 odd minutes, I told Paradise who
    canceled the charge. Not that they had a lot of choice, if you are on a
    256k service you cannot do 5 gig in 3 odd minutes, it just is not
    possible.....whatever their meter says....

    > * If you like to run your PC/server 24x7 (or even just have a "live"
    > connection to the internet during normal usage to make yourself
    > available for instant messaging, Skype etc), then you need to monitor
    > your usage very carefully
    > * Unless you a have traffic monitoring tool (ie. NTop, or Ethereal),
    > there is no other way of establishing exactly where the traffic you are
    > being charged for comes from or is going to
    >
    > Something to think about if you're on one of the old plans with the
    > national split and are contemplating a switch to one of the new plans.


    I got a phone call from Clear, people on the old cable service are now
    being forced to change, or go to another type of service, ie adsl or
    back to dial up.

    Thanks for this comment, I am not so sure it is that big a deal...lots
    of people have swapped and I have not seen huge comments on it in here.

    Still leaves me in the situation of moving to a "new" less stable
    broadband service, back to dialup or give it up altogether....I am
    seriously considering auto dialup.....not through Clear though....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Apr 23, 2006
    #2
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  3. Daniel

    Daniel Guest

    thingy wrote:
    > Daniel wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> I discovered to my annoyance that with the new plans you get charged for
    >> everything and anything. This includes broadcast traffic - certainly not
    >> the case with my previous plan.

    >
    >
    > No it was not...
    >
    >> The only way to stop getting charged for traffic, is to simply put the
    >> cable modem into standby (turning off the PC is not enough).
    >>
    >> This raises a few interesting points:-
    >> * A malicious user can simply flood your cable modem with DoS attacks
    >> (or just ping it like crazy), and that will count towards your usage

    >
    >
    > This happened with the old plan unless you noticed and complained...ie I
    > got dos'd with 5 gig of data in 3 odd minutes, I told Paradise who
    > canceled the charge. Not that they had a lot of choice, if you are on a
    > 256k service you cannot do 5 gig in 3 odd minutes, it just is not
    > possible.....whatever their meter says....
    >


    Nope.

    I didn't get charged for broadcast traffic, or even DoS attacks. I have
    the usage records for my billing periods dating back 2-3 years
    specifically identifying which IP addresses I got charged for.
    I could transfer data between myself and someone else on the same subnet
    and not get charged - I'm talking gigabytes of data here.

    I can't speak for your plan, but, I know I didn't get charged for
    unsolicited traffic. Mine was a 1G cap, 2Mbps/512Kbps, with national split.

    As for you getting charged for 5GB of data in 3 odd minutes - that is
    strange. Although, I know my work colleagues had sometimes downloaded
    data far in excess of their 256Kbps limit (when they were on it). One
    guy took a screenshot of his "256Kbps" plan downloading (obviously
    cached) a file at 8Mbps (actually it might have well been 8 megabytes
    per second). The guys figured that paradise would take the bandwidth cap
    off on the odd occasion for whatever reason - although, I've not heard
    of them doing that recently.
     
    Daniel, Apr 23, 2006
    #3
  4. Daniel

    thingy Guest

    Daniel wrote:
    > thingy wrote:
    >
    >> Daniel wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>> I discovered to my annoyance that with the new plans you get charged for
    >>> everything and anything. This includes broadcast traffic - certainly not
    >>> the case with my previous plan.

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> No it was not...
    >>
    >>> The only way to stop getting charged for traffic, is to simply put the
    >>> cable modem into standby (turning off the PC is not enough).
    >>>
    >>> This raises a few interesting points:-
    >>> * A malicious user can simply flood your cable modem with DoS attacks
    >>> (or just ping it like crazy), and that will count towards your usage

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> This happened with the old plan unless you noticed and complained...ie
    >> I got dos'd with 5 gig of data in 3 odd minutes, I told Paradise who
    >> canceled the charge. Not that they had a lot of choice, if you are on
    >> a 256k service you cannot do 5 gig in 3 odd minutes, it just is not
    >> possible.....whatever their meter says....
    >>

    >
    > Nope.
    >
    > I didn't get charged for broadcast traffic, or even DoS attacks. I have
    > the usage records for my billing periods dating back 2-3 years
    > specifically identifying which IP addresses I got charged for.
    > I could transfer data between myself and someone else on the same subnet
    > and not get charged - I'm talking gigabytes of data here.


    I got charged for a DoS attack, I rang up and it was cancelled/reversed.

    Yes, my undertsanding was, local subnet used to be free...

    > I can't speak for your plan, but, I know I didn't get charged for
    > unsolicited traffic. Mine was a 1G cap, 2Mbps/512Kbps, with national split.
    >
    > As for you getting charged for 5GB of data in 3 odd minutes - that is
    > strange.


    What it means is that the metering is on a huge pipe somewhere and didnt
    use my max allowable download speed as part of a check to ensure I was
    not overcharged.

    Although, I know my work colleagues had sometimes downloaded
    > data far in excess of their 256Kbps limit (when they were on it). One
    > guy took a screenshot of his "256Kbps" plan downloading (obviously
    > cached) a file at 8Mbps (actually it might have well been 8 megabytes
    > per second). The guys figured that paradise would take the bandwidth cap
    > off on the odd occasion for whatever reason - although, I've not heard
    > of them doing that recently.


    It has happened a few times this year I think....I have downloaded the
    odd iso in the last few months, and the speed has been way over my 256k
    limit, in the order of 2+meg/sec..........

    Other times it is as I would expect....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Apr 23, 2006
    #4
  5. Daniel

    Ross Dawson Guest

    On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 08:46:02 +1200, thingy <>
    wrote:

    >Daniel wrote:
    >> thingy wrote:
    >>
    >>> Daniel wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>> I discovered to my annoyance that with the new plans you get charged for
    >>>> everything and anything. This includes broadcast traffic - certainly not
    >>>> the case with my previous plan.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> No it was not...
    >>>
    >>>> The only way to stop getting charged for traffic, is to simply put the
    >>>> cable modem into standby (turning off the PC is not enough).
    >>>>
    >>>> This raises a few interesting points:-
    >>>> * A malicious user can simply flood your cable modem with DoS attacks
    >>>> (or just ping it like crazy), and that will count towards your usage
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> This happened with the old plan unless you noticed and complained...ie
    >>> I got dos'd with 5 gig of data in 3 odd minutes, I told Paradise who
    >>> canceled the charge. Not that they had a lot of choice, if you are on
    >>> a 256k service you cannot do 5 gig in 3 odd minutes, it just is not
    >>> possible.....whatever their meter says....
    >>>

    >>
    >> Nope.
    >>
    >> I didn't get charged for broadcast traffic, or even DoS attacks. I have
    >> the usage records for my billing periods dating back 2-3 years
    >> specifically identifying which IP addresses I got charged for.
    >> I could transfer data between myself and someone else on the same subnet
    >> and not get charged - I'm talking gigabytes of data here.

    >
    >I got charged for a DoS attack, I rang up and it was cancelled/reversed.
    >
    >Yes, my undertsanding was, local subnet used to be free...
    >
    >> I can't speak for your plan, but, I know I didn't get charged for
    >> unsolicited traffic. Mine was a 1G cap, 2Mbps/512Kbps, with national split.
    >>
    >> As for you getting charged for 5GB of data in 3 odd minutes - that is
    >> strange.

    >
    >What it means is that the metering is on a huge pipe somewhere and didnt
    >use my max allowable download speed as part of a check to ensure I was
    >not overcharged.
    >
    >Although, I know my work colleagues had sometimes downloaded
    >> data far in excess of their 256Kbps limit (when they were on it). One
    >> guy took a screenshot of his "256Kbps" plan downloading (obviously
    >> cached) a file at 8Mbps (actually it might have well been 8 megabytes
    >> per second). The guys figured that paradise would take the bandwidth cap
    >> off on the odd occasion for whatever reason - although, I've not heard
    >> of them doing that recently.

    >
    >It has happened a few times this year I think....I have downloaded the
    >odd iso in the last few months, and the speed has been way over my 256k
    >limit, in the order of 2+meg/sec..........
    >
    >Other times it is as I would expect....
    >
    >regards
    >
    >Thing


    Just as an aside has anyone done some decent upload tests of their
    telstra cable speed, I am supposed to be on a 2mbps up and down plan
    but recently was only getting a sustained 1mbps (perhaps just a little
    bit more) to a server which certainly should have been able to handle
    way more than that.

    As to the new usage meter it has had and possibly still has it's
    problems I certainly much preferred the old meter. 18 GB in 15
    minutes is a little hard to understand (impassable in fact) but that
    is what was shown when it had one of it's hissy fits.

    Oh and someone at Paradise really ought to go have a look at their
    music page where it is still saying the audio from this page isn't
    counted towards your monthly total, but what a sorry page it is now
    anyway, only one stream available.

    Their new plans though do seem somewhat competitive.

    --
    Cheers for now

    Ross Dawson.
     
    Ross Dawson, Apr 24, 2006
    #5
  6. Daniel

    David Guest

    On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:03:20 +1200, Ross Dawson wrote:

    .....

    > Just as an aside has anyone done some decent upload tests of their
    > telstra cable speed, I am supposed to be on a 2mbps up and down plan
    > but recently was only getting a sustained 1mbps (perhaps just a little
    > bit more) to a server which certainly should have been able to handle
    > way more than that.


    Yes. Have had full 2Mbs (& even higher) in speed tests many times. eg. just
    a few minutes ago on NZDSL site ie. at peak time:

    Download Speed: 4943 kbps (617.9 KB/sec transfer rate)
    Upload Speed: 2503 kbps (312.9 KB/sec transfer rate)

    Download Speed: 6796 kbps (849.5 KB/sec transfer rate)
    Upload Speed: 2408 kbps (301 KB/sec transfer rate)

    Download Speed: 6905 kbps (863.1 KB/sec transfer rate)
    Upload Speed: 2409 kbps (301.1 KB/sec transfer rate)

    http://www.nzdsl.co.nz/index.php?module=Speedtest

    Normally get 8500+ kbs down but I have 2 sons currently on other PCs who
    are likely diverting some DL capacity. Ours is 10Mbs / 2Mbs, but that
    should not affect the upload speed.

    ###

    Re the other issue - our usage is pretty much as we expected; ie.
    consistent with what we have downloaded. No surprises so far. The fact
    that all traffic would be charged for at full rate was reasonably well
    identified beforehand. I assumed that was the reason for the 4-5 fold
    increase in cap for most plans.

    David
     
    David, Apr 24, 2006
    #6
  7. Daniel

    Dodger Guest

    Dodger, Apr 24, 2006
    #7
  8. Daniel

    Ross Dawson Guest

    On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:45:19 +1200, David
    <> wrote:

    >On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:03:20 +1200, Ross Dawson wrote:
    >
    >....
    >
    >> Just as an aside has anyone done some decent upload tests of their
    >> telstra cable speed, I am supposed to be on a 2mbps up and down plan
    >> but recently was only getting a sustained 1mbps (perhaps just a little
    >> bit more) to a server which certainly should have been able to handle
    >> way more than that.

    >
    >Yes. Have had full 2Mbs (& even higher) in speed tests many times. eg. just
    >a few minutes ago on NZDSL site ie. at peak time:
    >
    >Download Speed: 4943 kbps (617.9 KB/sec transfer rate)
    >Upload Speed: 2503 kbps (312.9 KB/sec transfer rate)
    >
    >Download Speed: 6796 kbps (849.5 KB/sec transfer rate)
    >Upload Speed: 2408 kbps (301 KB/sec transfer rate)
    >
    >Download Speed: 6905 kbps (863.1 KB/sec transfer rate)
    >Upload Speed: 2409 kbps (301.1 KB/sec transfer rate)
    >
    >http://www.nzdsl.co.nz/index.php?module=Speedtest
    >
    >Normally get 8500+ kbs down but I have 2 sons currently on other PCs who
    >are likely diverting some DL capacity. Ours is 10Mbs / 2Mbs, but that
    >should not affect the upload speed.
    >
    >###
    >
    >Re the other issue - our usage is pretty much as we expected; ie.
    >consistent with what we have downloaded. No surprises so far. The fact
    >that all traffic would be charged for at full rate was reasonably well
    >identified beforehand. I assumed that was the reason for the 4-5 fold
    >increase in cap for most plans.
    >
    >David
    >

    Ok, as far as being aware of the split dissappearing this wasn't made
    clear to me at the time of signup, nor was the fact that local traffic
    (to and from their servers) was also now going to be counted.

    Their music page by the way if I hadn't made it clear before is now
    very definitely being counted.

    However since the increase in data cap I am now quite happy with what
    I have.

    --
    Cheers for now

    Ross Dawson.
     
    Ross Dawson, Apr 25, 2006
    #8
  9. Daniel

    Daniel Guest

    Ross Dawson wrote:
    >>

    > nor was the fact that local traffic
    > (to and from their servers) was also now going to be counted.
    >
    > Their music page by the way if I hadn't made it clear before is now
    > very definitely being counted.
    >


    Precisely.

    So, the next time some unsuspecting Windows user (or users as the case
    may be) on the new-plan paradise internal network gets a
    networking-flooding worm expect your usage to go sky high.
    This doesn't even include malicious users who go looking for security holes.
    Remember, they don't monitor traffic for individual IP addresses
    anymore, so good luck on trying to determine which IP address was doing
    the spamming, and how much actual traffic was worm-induced.
     
    Daniel, Apr 25, 2006
    #9
  10. Daniel

    Dave Doe Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:45:19 +1200, David
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:03:20 +1200, Ross Dawson wrote:
    > >
    > >....
    > >
    > >> Just as an aside has anyone done some decent upload tests of their
    > >> telstra cable speed, I am supposed to be on a 2mbps up and down plan
    > >> but recently was only getting a sustained 1mbps (perhaps just a little
    > >> bit more) to a server which certainly should have been able to handle
    > >> way more than that.

    > >
    > >Yes. Have had full 2Mbs (& even higher) in speed tests many times. eg. just
    > >a few minutes ago on NZDSL site ie. at peak time:
    > >
    > >Download Speed: 4943 kbps (617.9 KB/sec transfer rate)
    > >Upload Speed: 2503 kbps (312.9 KB/sec transfer rate)
    > >
    > >Download Speed: 6796 kbps (849.5 KB/sec transfer rate)
    > >Upload Speed: 2408 kbps (301 KB/sec transfer rate)
    > >
    > >Download Speed: 6905 kbps (863.1 KB/sec transfer rate)
    > >Upload Speed: 2409 kbps (301.1 KB/sec transfer rate)
    > >
    > >http://www.nzdsl.co.nz/index.php?module=Speedtest
    > >
    > >Normally get 8500+ kbs down but I have 2 sons currently on other PCs who
    > >are likely diverting some DL capacity. Ours is 10Mbs / 2Mbs, but that
    > >should not affect the upload speed.
    > >
    > >###
    > >
    > >Re the other issue - our usage is pretty much as we expected; ie.
    > >consistent with what we have downloaded. No surprises so far. The fact
    > >that all traffic would be charged for at full rate was reasonably well
    > >identified beforehand. I assumed that was the reason for the 4-5 fold
    > >increase in cap for most plans.
    > >
    > >David
    > >

    > Ok, as far as being aware of the split dissappearing this wasn't made
    > clear to me at the time of signup, nor was the fact that local traffic
    > (to and from their servers) was also now going to be counted.
    >
    > Their music page by the way if I hadn't made it clear before is now
    > very definitely being counted.
    >
    > However since the increase in data cap I am now quite happy with what
    > I have.


    I haven't changed yet - I guess they'll force me to soon enough. The
    music page (fuken crap that it is - 2 channels of 11? is it - available
    only) - is still 'free' (I hope) for me.

    --
    Duncan
     
    Dave Doe, Apr 25, 2006
    #10
  11. Daniel

    Ross Dawson Guest

    On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 13:37:48 +1200, Dave Doe <> wrote:

    >In article <>,
    > says...
    >> On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:45:19 +1200, David
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:03:20 +1200, Ross Dawson wrote:
    >> >
    >> >....
    >> >
    >> >> Just as an aside has anyone done some decent upload tests of their
    >> >> telstra cable speed, I am supposed to be on a 2mbps up and down plan
    >> >> but recently was only getting a sustained 1mbps (perhaps just a little
    >> >> bit more) to a server which certainly should have been able to handle
    >> >> way more than that.
    >> >
    >> >Yes. Have had full 2Mbs (& even higher) in speed tests many times. eg. just
    >> >a few minutes ago on NZDSL site ie. at peak time:
    >> >
    >> >Download Speed: 4943 kbps (617.9 KB/sec transfer rate)
    >> >Upload Speed: 2503 kbps (312.9 KB/sec transfer rate)
    >> >
    >> >Download Speed: 6796 kbps (849.5 KB/sec transfer rate)
    >> >Upload Speed: 2408 kbps (301 KB/sec transfer rate)
    >> >
    >> >Download Speed: 6905 kbps (863.1 KB/sec transfer rate)
    >> >Upload Speed: 2409 kbps (301.1 KB/sec transfer rate)
    >> >
    >> >http://www.nzdsl.co.nz/index.php?module=Speedtest
    >> >
    >> >Normally get 8500+ kbs down but I have 2 sons currently on other PCs who
    >> >are likely diverting some DL capacity. Ours is 10Mbs / 2Mbs, but that
    >> >should not affect the upload speed.
    >> >
    >> >###
    >> >
    >> >Re the other issue - our usage is pretty much as we expected; ie.
    >> >consistent with what we have downloaded. No surprises so far. The fact
    >> >that all traffic would be charged for at full rate was reasonably well
    >> >identified beforehand. I assumed that was the reason for the 4-5 fold
    >> >increase in cap for most plans.
    >> >
    >> >David
    >> >

    >> Ok, as far as being aware of the split dissappearing this wasn't made
    >> clear to me at the time of signup, nor was the fact that local traffic
    >> (to and from their servers) was also now going to be counted.
    >>
    >> Their music page by the way if I hadn't made it clear before is now
    >> very definitely being counted.
    >>
    >> However since the increase in data cap I am now quite happy with what
    >> I have.

    >
    >I haven't changed yet - I guess they'll force me to soon enough. The
    >music page (fuken crap that it is - 2 channels of 11? is it - available
    >only) - is still 'free' (I hope) for me.


    Hi Duncan.

    Best check out their music page and make sure it is still free for
    you.

    I really wish someone who can modifies that web page to reflect the
    true state of affairs.

    Mind you I wonder how much longer Paradise as a brand will survive, at
    it's present rate of service satisfaction I would suspect not that
    much longer.

    --
    Cheers for now

    Ross Dawson.
     
    Ross Dawson, Apr 27, 2006
    #11
  12. Daniel

    Dave Doe Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 13:37:48 +1200, Dave Doe <> wrote:
    >
    > >In article <>,
    > > says...
    > >> On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:45:19 +1200, David
    > >> <> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:03:20 +1200, Ross Dawson wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> >....
    > >> >
    > >> >> Just as an aside has anyone done some decent upload tests of their
    > >> >> telstra cable speed, I am supposed to be on a 2mbps up and down plan
    > >> >> but recently was only getting a sustained 1mbps (perhaps just a little
    > >> >> bit more) to a server which certainly should have been able to handle
    > >> >> way more than that.
    > >> >
    > >> >Yes. Have had full 2Mbs (& even higher) in speed tests many times. eg. just
    > >> >a few minutes ago on NZDSL site ie. at peak time:
    > >> >
    > >> >Download Speed: 4943 kbps (617.9 KB/sec transfer rate)
    > >> >Upload Speed: 2503 kbps (312.9 KB/sec transfer rate)
    > >> >
    > >> >Download Speed: 6796 kbps (849.5 KB/sec transfer rate)
    > >> >Upload Speed: 2408 kbps (301 KB/sec transfer rate)
    > >> >
    > >> >Download Speed: 6905 kbps (863.1 KB/sec transfer rate)
    > >> >Upload Speed: 2409 kbps (301.1 KB/sec transfer rate)
    > >> >
    > >> >http://www.nzdsl.co.nz/index.php?module=Speedtest
    > >> >
    > >> >Normally get 8500+ kbs down but I have 2 sons currently on other PCs who
    > >> >are likely diverting some DL capacity. Ours is 10Mbs / 2Mbs, but that
    > >> >should not affect the upload speed.
    > >> >
    > >> >###
    > >> >
    > >> >Re the other issue - our usage is pretty much as we expected; ie.
    > >> >consistent with what we have downloaded. No surprises so far. The fact
    > >> >that all traffic would be charged for at full rate was reasonably well
    > >> >identified beforehand. I assumed that was the reason for the 4-5 fold
    > >> >increase in cap for most plans.
    > >> >
    > >> >David
    > >> >
    > >> Ok, as far as being aware of the split dissappearing this wasn't made
    > >> clear to me at the time of signup, nor was the fact that local traffic
    > >> (to and from their servers) was also now going to be counted.
    > >>
    > >> Their music page by the way if I hadn't made it clear before is now
    > >> very definitely being counted.
    > >>
    > >> However since the increase in data cap I am now quite happy with what
    > >> I have.

    > >
    > >I haven't changed yet - I guess they'll force me to soon enough. The
    > >music page (fuken crap that it is - 2 channels of 11? is it - available
    > >only) - is still 'free' (I hope) for me.

    >
    > Hi Duncan.
    >
    > Best check out their music page and make sure it is still free for
    > you.
    >
    > I really wish someone who can modifies that web page to reflect the
    > true state of affairs.
    >
    > Mind you I wonder how much longer Paradise as a brand will survive, at
    > it's present rate of service satisfaction I would suspect not that
    > much longer.


    I have checked - it is all stated at:
    http://radio.paradise.net.nz

    --
    Duncan
     
    Dave Doe, Apr 28, 2006
    #12
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