Warehouse NZ site doesn't work in Mozilla

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Patrick Dunford, May 1, 2004.

  1. I was not able to work out why this site does not work with Mozilla. Here
    is the output from W3's HTML Validator.

    I'd be interested if anyone can tell me why the site does not work.

    ==============================================================
    "I was not able to extract a character encoding labeling from any of the
    valid sources for such information. Without encoding information it is
    impossible to validate the document. The sources I tried are:

    * The HTTP Content-Type field.
    * The XML Declaration.
    * The HTML "META" element.

    And I even tried to autodetect it using the algorithm defined in Appendix
    F of the XML 1.0 Recommendation.

    Since none of these sources yielded any usable information, I will not be
    able to validate this document. Sorry. Please make sure you specify the
    character encoding in use.

    IANA maintains the list of official names for character sets. "
    ==============================================================
    With the form settings of iso-8859-1 and HTML4.01 Transitional in the
    validator, it produced the following output.
    ==============================================================
    Address: http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/
    Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0
    Size: 6348
    Content-Type: text/html
    Encoding: iso-8859-1
    Doctype: HTML 4.01 Transitional
    Errors: 58
    Revalidate With Options
    :
    Show Source Outline
    Parse Tree ...no attributes
    Validate error pages Verbose Output

    * DOCTYPE Override in effect! Any DOCTYPE Declaration in the document
    has been suppressed and the DOCTYPE for «HTML 4.01 Transitional» inserted
    instead. The document will not be Valid until you alter the source file
    to reflect this new DOCTYPE.
    * Line 101, column 106: cannot generate system identifier for general
    entity "ref"
    * Line 101, column 120: cannot generate system identifier for general
    entity "sId"
    * Line 101, column 131: cannot generate system identifier for general
    entity "mT"
    * Line 101, column 136: cannot generate system identifier for general
    entity "cook"

    This page is not Valid HTML 4.01 Transitional!

    Below are the results of attempting to parse this document with an SGML
    parser.

    1. Line 11, column 15: there is no attribute "ROWS" (explain...).

    <FRAMESET ROWS="100%,*" FRAMESPACING=0 FRAMEBORDER=0 BORDER=0>
    ^

    2. Line 11, column 37: there is no attribute "FRAMESPACING"
    (explain...).

    <FRAMESET ROWS="100%,*" FRAMESPACING=0 FRAMEBORDER=0 BORDER=0>
    ^

    3. Line 11, column 51: there is no attribute "FRAMEBORDER"
    (explain...).

    <FRAMESET ROWS="100%,*" FRAMESPACING=0 FRAMEBORDER=0 BORDER=0>
    ^

    4. Line 11, column 60: there is no attribute "BORDER" (explain...).

    <FRAMESET ROWS="100%,*" FRAMESPACING=0 FRAMEBORDER=0 BORDER=0>
    ^

    5. Line 11, column 61: element "FRAMESET" undefined (explain...).

    ...ESET ROWS="100%,*" FRAMESPACING=0 FRAMEBORDER=0 BORDER=0>
    ^

    6. Line 12, column 15: there is no attribute "NAME" (explain...).

    <FRAME NAME="homepage" SRC="homepage.aspx" NORESIZE FRAMEBORDER=0
    BORDER=0 MA
    ^

    7. Line 12, column 30: there is no attribute "SRC" (explain...).

    <FRAME NAME="homepage" SRC="homepage.aspx" NORESIZE FRAMEBORDER=0
    BORDER=0 MA
    ^

    8. Line 12, column 55: "NORESIZE" is not a member of a group specified
    for any attribute (explain...).

    ...mepage" SRC="homepage.aspx" NORESIZE FRAMEBORDER=0 BORDER=0
    MARGINHEIGHT=0 MA
    ^

    9. Line 12, column 67: there is no attribute "FRAMEBORDER"
    (explain...).

    ..."homepage.aspx" NORESIZE FRAMEBORDER=0 BORDER=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0
    MARGINWIDTH=0>
    ^

    10. Line 12, column 76: there is no attribute "BORDER" (explain...).

    ...page.aspx" NORESIZE FRAMEBORDER=0 BORDER=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0
    MARGINWIDTH=0>
    ^

    11. Line 12, column 91: there is no attribute "MARGINHEIGHT"
    (explain...).

    ... FRAMEBORDER=0 BORDER=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0 MARGINWIDTH=0>
    ^

    12. Line 12, column 105: there is no attribute "MARGINWIDTH"
    (explain...).

    ... BORDER=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0 MARGINWIDTH=0>
    ^

    13. Line 12, column 106: element "FRAME" undefined (explain...).

    ...BORDER=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0 MARGINWIDTH=0>
    ^

    14. Line 13, column 56: "NORESIZE" is not a member of a group specified
    for any attribute (explain...).

    ...itemap" SRC="index_fr.html" NORESIZE FRAMEBORDER=0 BORDER=0
    MARGINHEIGHT=0 MA
    ^

    15. Line 13, column 107: element "FRAME" undefined (explain...).

    ...BORDER=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0 MARGINWIDTH=0>
    ^

    16. Line 16, column 37: there is no attribute "LEFTMARGIN"
    (explain...).

    <BODY bgcolor="#FFFFFF" leftmargin="0" topmargin="0" marginwidth="0"
    marginhei
    ^

    17. Line 16, column 51: there is no attribute "TOPMARGIN" (explain...).

    <BODY bgcolor="#FFFFFF" leftmargin="0" topmargin="0" marginwidth="0"
    marginheight="0">
    ^

    18. Line 16, column 67: there is no attribute "MARGINWIDTH"
    (explain...).

    ...#FFFFFF" leftmargin="0" topmargin="0" marginwidth="0"
    marginheight="0">
    ^

    19. Line 16, column 84: there is no attribute "MARGINHEIGHT"
    (explain...).

    ...gin="0" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0">
    ^

    20. Line 16, column 87: document type does not allow element "BODY"
    here (explain...).

    ...="0" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0">
    ^

    21. Line 28, column 64: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...img src="fr_images/about.gif" width="775" height="37"></td>
    ^

    22. Line 33, column 91: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    .../leftnav.gif" width="178" height="53"></td>
    ^

    23. Line 57, column 123: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...height="50" usemap="#Map2" border="0"><br>
    ^

    24. Line 62, column 93: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Homepage.aspx">
    ^

    25. Line 63, column 94: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Homepage.aspx">
    ^

    26. Line 64, column 108: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...ouse.co.nz/Content.aspx?id=100000039">
    ^

    27. Line 65, column 98: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...ww.thewarehouse.co.nz/Locations.aspx">
    ^

    28. Line 66, column 109: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...ouse.co.nz/Content.aspx?id=100000107">
    ^

    29. Line 67, column 109: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...ouse.co.nz/Content.aspx?id=100000159">
    ^

    30. Line 68, column 109: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...ouse.co.nz/Content.aspx?id=100000176">
    ^

    31. Line 69, column 109: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...ouse.co.nz/Content.aspx?id=100000201">
    ^

    32. Line 70, column 109: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...ouse.co.nz/Content.aspx?id=100000283">
    ^

    33. Line 71, column 109: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...ouse.co.nz/Content.aspx?id=100000300">
    ^

    34. Line 74, column 122: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...al.aspx?id=100002248" target="_blank">
    ^

    35. Line 75, column 122: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...al.aspx?id=100000517" target="_blank">
    ^

    36. Line 76, column 122: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...al.aspx?id=100000515" target="_blank">
    ^

    37. Line 77, column 94: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    .../www.thewarehouse.co.nz/SiteMap.aspx">
    ^

    38. Line 78, column 94: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...ww.thewarehouse.co.nz/ContactUs.aspx">
    ^

    39. Line 79, column 56: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    <area shape="rect" coords="548,0,596,23" href="#top">
    ^

    40. Line 83, column 29: required attribute "TYPE" not specified
    (explain...).

    <SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript">
    ^

    41. Line 101, column 106: cannot generate system identifier for general
    entity "ref"

    ....co.nz/mt/getstats.asp?url=No+Script&ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&c
    ook=N">
    ^

    42. Line 101, column 106: general entity "ref" not defined and no
    default entity (explain...).

    ....co.nz/mt/getstats.asp?url=No+Script&ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&c
    ook=N">
    ^

    43. Line 101, column 109: reference to entity "ref" for which no system
    identifier could be generated

    ....nz/mt/getstats.asp?url=No+Script&ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&cook
    =N">
    ^

    44. Line 101, column 105: entity was defined here

    ...r.co.nz/mt/getstats.asp?url=No+Script&ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&
    cook=N">
    ^

    45. Line 101, column 120: cannot generate system identifier for general
    entity "sId"

    ...tats.asp?url=No+Script&ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&cook=N">
    ^

    46. Line 101, column 120: general entity "sId" not defined and no
    default entity (explain...).

    ...tats.asp?url=No+Script&ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&cook=N">
    ^

    47. Line 101, column 123: reference to entity "sId" for which no system
    identifier could be generated

    ...s.asp?url=No+Script&ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&cook=N">
    ^

    48. Line 101, column 119: entity was defined here

    ...stats.asp?url=No+Script&ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&cook=N">
    ^

    49. Line 101, column 131: cannot generate system identifier for general
    entity "mT"

    ...l=No+Script&ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&cook=N">
    ^

    50. Line 101, column 131: general entity "mT" not defined and no
    default entity (explain...).

    ...l=No+Script&ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&cook=N">
    ^

    51. Line 101, column 133: reference to entity "mT" for which no system
    identifier could be generated

    ...No+Script&ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&cook=N">
    ^

    52. Line 101, column 130: entity was defined here

    ...rl=No+Script&ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&cook=N">
    ^

    53. Line 101, column 136: cannot generate system identifier for general
    entity "cook"

    ...Script&ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&cook=N">
    ^

    54. Line 101, column 136: general entity "cook" not defined and no
    default entity (explain...).

    ...Script&ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&cook=N">
    ^

    55. Line 101, column 140: reference to entity "cook" for which no
    system identifier could be generated

    ...pt&ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&cook=N">
    ^

    56. Line 101, column 135: entity was defined here

    ...+Script&ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&cook=N">
    ^

    57. Line 101, column 143: required attribute "ALT" not specified
    (explain...).

    ...ref=No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&cook=N">
    ^

    58. Line 106, column 6: end tag for "HTML" which is not finished
    (explain...).

    </HTML>
    ^

    Source Listing

    Below is the source input I used for this validation:

    1: <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
    2: <HTML>
    3: <HEAD>
    4: <TITLE>The Warehouse New Zealand - Shopping, Jobs, Financial
    Services, Investment
    5: and Supplier Info</TITLE>
    6: <meta name="description" content="The Warehouse New Zealand offers
    shopping, insurance & financial products to New Zealand buyers. Plus
    importers & supplier info, store locations, investment data & company
    info.">
    7: <meta name="keywords" content="the warehouse, the warehouse new
    zealand, warehouse, warehouse new zealand, warehouse stationery, shopping
    new zealand, new zealand shopping, jobs new zealand, new zealand jobs,
    new zealand importers, new zealand buyers, new zealand stock market, new
    zealand investment, foreign investment in australia, office stationery
    supplier, shopping australia, insurance new zealand
    8: ">
    9: <link rel="stylesheet" href="fr_images/frstyle.css"
    type="text/css">
    10: </HEAD>
    11: <FRAMESET ROWS="100%,*" FRAMESPACING=0 FRAMEBORDER=0 BORDER=0>
    12: <FRAME NAME="homepage" SRC="homepage.aspx" NORESIZE
    FRAMEBORDER=0 BORDER=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0 MARGINWIDTH=0>
    13: <FRAME NAME="FRsitemap" SRC="index_fr.html" NORESIZE
    FRAMEBORDER=0 BORDER=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0 MARGINWIDTH=0>
    14: <NOFRAMES>
    15: <!-- This page provides a controlled presentation of the sites
    contents and important links. This is used to help search engines
    correctly index the site and its contents. Objective is to help searchers
    find the most relevant content on the web-->
    16: <BODY bgcolor="#FFFFFF" leftmargin="0" topmargin="0"
    marginwidth="0" marginheight="0">
    17: <table width="775" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
    18: <tr>
    19: <td><img src="fr_images/header.gif" width="771" height="127"
    usemap="#Map" border="0" alt="The Warehouse New Zealand - Shopping, Jobs,
    Financial Services, Investment and Supplier Info"></td>
    20: </tr>
    21: <tr>
    22: <td height="30">
    23: <h1>The Warehouse New Zealand - Shopping, Jobs, Financial
    Services, Investment
    24: and Supplier Info</h1>
    25: </td>
    26: </tr>
    27: <tr>
    28: <td><img src="fr_images/about.gif" width="775"
    height="37"></td>
    29: </tr>
    30: </table>
    31: <table width="775" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
    32: <tr>
    33: <td width="178" valign="top"><img src="fr_images/leftnav.gif"
    width="178" height="53"></td>
    34: <td valign="top">
    35: <h2>The Warehouse New Zealand is a values based business.
    Our key values
    36: are: </h2>
    37: <p><i>Where People Come First </i><br>
    38: The culture of The Warehouse is unique and has been one
    of the key reasons
    39: behind the success of the company. </p>
    40: <p><i>Where Everyone Gets A Bargain</i><br>
    41: We are focused on ensuring that we provide great value
    products for
    42: our customers every day. </p>
    43: <p><i>Where The Environment Matters</i><br>
    44: The Warehouse has an extensive programme of environmental
    and social
    45: initiatives, which we feel are improving our community
    and our environment.
    46: View our Triple Bottom Line Report for more information
    about our most
    47: recent environmental and social activities.</p>
    48: <p>We aim to ensure that these values flow on to our
    stakeholders - our
    49: team members, customers, suppliers, shareholders and our
    community.</p>
    50: <p><a href="homepage.aspx">The Warehouse New Zealand -
    Shopping, Jobs,
    51: Financial Services, Investment and Supplier Info.</a><br>
    52: </p>
    53: </td>
    54: </tr>
    55: <tr>
    56: <td width="178" valign="bottom" height="100">&nbsp;</td>
    57: <td valign="bottom" height="100"><img
    src="fr_images/copyright.gif" width="597" height="50" usemap="#Map2"
    border="0"><br>
    58: </td>
    59: </tr>
    60: </table>
    61: <map name="Map">
    62: <area shape="rect" coords="3,3,767,84"
    href="http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Homepage.aspx">
    63: <area shape="rect" coords="2,86,44,106"
    href="http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Homepage.aspx">
    64: <area shape="rect" coords="45,86,106,106"
    href="http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Content.aspx?id=100000039">
    65: <area shape="rect" coords="108,86,155,106"
    href="http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Locations.aspx">
    66: <area shape="rect" coords="157,86,217,106"
    href="http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Content.aspx?id=100000107">
    67: <area shape="rect" coords="219,86,278,106"
    href="http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Content.aspx?id=100000159">
    68: <area shape="rect" coords="282,86,335,106"
    href="http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Content.aspx?id=100000176">
    69: <area shape="rect" coords="338,86,451,106"
    href="http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Content.aspx?id=100000201">
    70: <area shape="rect" coords="453,86,551,106"
    href="http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Content.aspx?id=100000283">
    71: <area shape="rect" coords="556,86,664,106"
    href="http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Content.aspx?id=100000300">
    72: </map>
    73: <map name="Map2">
    74: <area shape="rect" coords="351,26,464,45"
    href="http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Legal.aspx?id=100002248"
    target="_blank">
    75: <area shape="rect" coords="258,26,344,45"
    href="http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Legal.aspx?id=100000517"
    target="_blank">
    76: <area shape="rect" coords="149,26,251,45"
    href="http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Legal.aspx?id=100000515"
    target="_blank">
    77: <area shape="rect" coords="84,26,142,45"
    href="http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/SiteMap.aspx">
    78: <area shape="rect" coords="3,26,75,45"
    href="http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/ContactUs.aspx">
    79: <area shape="rect" coords="548,0,596,23" href="#top">
    80: </map>
    81: <!-- START OF MEDIA TRACKER TAG v2 -->
    82: <!-- First Rate Ltd (http://www.firstrate.co.nz) -->
    83: <SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript">
    84: <!--
    85: var u=escape(window.document.URL);
    86: var r=escape(window.document.referrer);
    87: var or="mt200045";
    88: if(r.toLowerCase().indexOf(document.location.host)==-
    1){doMT(u,r)}
    89: else if (r !="" ){if
    (r.toLowerCase().indexOf(or.toLowerCase()) >=0 ){doMT(u,r)}}
    90: function doMT(u,r){
    91: var W="?url="+u;
    92: W+="&ref="+r;
    93: W+="&sId=200045";
    94: W+="&mT=2";
    95: W+="&cook="+(navigator.cookieEnabled?"Y":"N");
    96: document.write('<IMG BORDER="0" WIDTH="0" HEIGHT="0"
    SRC="http://tracker.mediatracker.co.nz/mt/getstats.asp'+W+'">');
    97: }
    98: //-->
    99: </SCRIPT>
    100: <NOSCRIPT>
    101: <IMG BORDER="0" WIDTH="0" HEIGHT="0"
    SRC="http://tracker.mediatracker.co.nz/mt/getstats.asp?url=No+Script&ref=
    No+Script&sId=200045&mT=2&cook=N">
    102: </NOSCRIPT>
    103: <!-- END OF MEDIA TRACKER TAG -->
    104: </BODY>
    105: </NOFRAMES> </FRAMESET>
    106: </HTML>
     
    Patrick Dunford, May 1, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Patrick Dunford

    Jason M Guest

    On Sat, 1 May 2004 15:26:10 +1200, Patrick Dunford
    <> wrote:

    >I was not able to work out why this site does not work with Mozilla. Here=
    >=20
    >is the output from W3's HTML Validator.
    >
    >I'd be interested if anyone can tell me why the site does not work.


    http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz
    You are correct, it doesn't work with Mozilla.
    Why don't you reply to them using their feedback form?


    netscape.public.mozilla removed

    Reason: Error reported by Server: 441 Postings to
    "netscape.public.mozilla" are not allowed here.
     
    Jason M, May 1, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Patrick Dunford

    Chris Hope Guest

    Patrick Dunford wrote:

    > I was not able to work out why this site does not work with Mozilla. Here
    > is the output from W3's HTML Validator.


    [..]

    The HTML may or may not be valid but that's not why it doesn't work in
    Mozilla. It uses "layered" menus and they seem to have coded them to only
    include the appropriate Javascript files if you're using Internet Explorer.

    I took a look at the source using Konqueror, Mozilla and Internet Explorer,
    and in the non-IE browsers the appropriate links to the Javascript files
    are not there. For whatever reason they have decided to leave the
    navigation non-functional if you are not using IE.

    I removed netscape.public.mozilla from the groups to follow up to as this is
    really not appropriate for that NG. I suggest (as did the other post) that
    you use their contact form to complain it doesn't work, just as I did the
    other day.

    --
    Chris Hope
    The Electric Toolbox - http://www.electrictoolbox.com/
     
    Chris Hope, May 1, 2004
    #3
  4. Patrick Dunford

    Collector Guest

    Chris Hope wrote:

    >Patrick Dunford wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >>I was not able to work out why this site does not work with Mozilla. Here
    >>is the output from W3's HTML Validator.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >[..]
    >
    >The HTML may or may not be valid but that's not why it doesn't work in
    >Mozilla. It uses "layered" menus and they seem to have coded them to only
    >include the appropriate Javascript files if you're using Internet Explorer.
    >
    >I took a look at the source using Konqueror, Mozilla and Internet Explorer,
    >and in the non-IE browsers the appropriate links to the Javascript files
    >are not there. For whatever reason they have decided to leave the
    >navigation non-functional if you are not using IE.
    >
    >I removed netscape.public.mozilla from the groups to follow up to as this is
    >really not appropriate for that NG. I suggest (as did the other post) that
    >you use their contact form to complain it doesn't work, just as I did the
    >other day.
    >
    >
    >

    I did advise them that the site failed in cross browser compatibility,
    used a copy of IE to use the feedback form, got a reply too!

    Have trashed it but basically said that budget was limited. I resisted
    the temptation to reply suggesting the site creators where the
    limitation not the budget.
     
    Collector, May 1, 2004
    #4
  5. Patrick Dunford

    Chris Hope Guest

    Collector wrote:

    [..]

    > I did advise them that the site failed in cross browser compatibility,
    > used a copy of IE to use the feedback form, got a reply too!
    >
    > Have trashed it but basically said that budget was limited. I resisted
    > the temptation to reply suggesting the site creators where the
    > limitation not the budget.


    Yep you are right. If they couldn't afford it then they should have stayed
    away from layered nav. Not that it's hard to make it work in multiple
    browsers...
     
    Chris Hope, May 1, 2004
    #5
  6. Patrick Dunford

    pbs Guest

    Chris Hope wrote:
    > Patrick Dunford wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I was not able to work out why this site does not work with Mozilla. Here
    >>is the output from W3's HTML Validator.


    > [snip] I suggest (as did the other post) that
    > you use their contact form to complain it doesn't work, just as I did the
    > other day.


    The trouble is that the contact us form
    http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/ContactUs.aspx does not work for Mozilla.

    But there is a email address given on
    http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Legal.aspx?id=100000517 for getting
    permission to link to the site. Perhapse the receipint of an email to
    that address can forward it to the webmaster. It is
    "enquiries.AT.thewarehouse.co.nz" where .AT. is @

    The Site Map http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/SiteMap.aspx allows for
    navigation with none IE browsers.
     
    pbs, May 1, 2004
    #6
  7. Patrick Dunford

    Steve Guest

    Patrick Dunford wrote:
    > I was not able to work out why this site does not work with Mozilla. Here
    > is the output from W3's HTML Validator.
    >
    > I'd be interested if anyone can tell me why the site does not work.
    >

    [snip]

    Not even a doctype, and uses frames! Looks like the schoolkids they got
    to write it had never heard of standards, let alone best practices!

    Mind you, non-ie users are in the 5% minority. Sad to say.

    Steve
     
    Steve, May 1, 2004
    #7
  8. Patrick Dunford

    Jason M Guest

    On Sat, 01 May 2004 18:27:48 +1200, Steve <> wrote:

    >Patrick Dunford wrote:
    >> I was not able to work out why this site does not work with Mozilla. Here
    >> is the output from W3's HTML Validator.
    >>
    >> I'd be interested if anyone can tell me why the site does not work.
    >>

    >[snip]
    >
    >Not even a doctype, and uses frames! Looks like the schoolkids they got
    >to write it had never heard of standards, let alone best practices!
    >
    >Mind you, non-ie users are in the 5% minority. Sad to say.


    With whatever they have used, the URL stays the same no matter where
    you go on the site. This means that if somebody wants to give the URL
    of a Warehouse product that they recommend, they can't.
    They also use PDFs of their brochures for their latest bargains, and
    that's just too slow to access, although I understand why they would
    not want to spend the time to convert those to HTML.
     
    Jason M, May 1, 2004
    #8
  9. Patrick Dunford

    Gurble Guest

    On Sat, 01 May 2004 18:27:48 +1200, Steve <> wrote:

    >
    >Mind you, non-ie users are in the 5% minority. Sad to say.


    15%-20% going by our site stats. And increasing on an almost monthly
    basis (although our site probably attracts a few more that "know
    something" about computers, and are not happy just using the status
    quo of browsers).

    That's one in every 5-8 visitors. That's a pretty big market to be
    cutting out just because you can't be bothered adhering to basic
    standards.

    Oh, and frames have their place. Note that they are also in the w3c
    standards.

    2c
     
    Gurble, May 1, 2004
    #9
  10. Gurble
    > On Sat, 01 May 2004 18:27:48 +1200, Steve <> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >Mind you, non-ie users are in the 5% minority. Sad to say.

    >
    > 15%-20% going by our site stats. And increasing on an almost monthly
    > basis (although our site probably attracts a few more that "know
    > something" about computers, and are not happy just using the status
    > quo of browsers).
    >
    > That's one in every 5-8 visitors. That's a pretty big market to be
    > cutting out just because you can't be bothered adhering to basic
    > standards.
    >
    > Oh, and frames have their place. Note that they are also in the w3c
    > standards.


    There's a lot of stuff in W3 standards that isn't a great idea. Frames
    are one of those things, that cause as many problems as they solve.
     
    Patrick Dunford, May 2, 2004
    #10
  11. Patrick Dunford

    Don Gould Guest

    Everyone should send them a quick email.

    If you want to get the point accross that oss users are customers as
    well then you have to make sure you're heard.

    I'm sure I could fix their problem very quickly as could many of us, so
    blaming budget is really short sighted.

    I also used Firebird and it doesn't work there either (I'm sure that's
    no supprise to any of you).

    By the way... what is 5% of 4,000,000? Must represent a few customers.

    Cheers Don

    pbs wrote:
    > Chris Hope wrote:
    >
    >> Patrick Dunford wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>> I was not able to work out why this site does not work with Mozilla.
    >>> Here
    >>> is the output from W3's HTML Validator.

    >
    >
    >> [snip] I suggest (as did the other post) that
    >> you use their contact form to complain it doesn't work, just as I did the
    >> other day.

    >
    >
    > The trouble is that the contact us form
    > http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/ContactUs.aspx does not work for Mozilla.
    >
    > But there is a email address given on
    > http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Legal.aspx?id=100000517 for getting
    > permission to link to the site. Perhapse the receipint of an email to
    > that address can forward it to the webmaster. It is
    > "enquiries.AT.thewarehouse.co.nz" where .AT. is @
    >
    > The Site Map http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/SiteMap.aspx allows for
    > navigation with none IE browsers.
    >
     
    Don Gould, May 2, 2004
    #11
  12. Patrick Dunford

    GraB Guest

    Just done. The links across the top don't work in Opera and nothing
    works in Firefox. I asked them if they were fishing for MS IE using
    customers only.

    On Sun, 02 May 2004 20:24:34 +1200, Don Gould
    <> wrote:

    >Everyone should send them a quick email.
    >
    >If you want to get the point accross that oss users are customers as
    >well then you have to make sure you're heard.
    >
    >I'm sure I could fix their problem very quickly as could many of us, so
    >blaming budget is really short sighted.
    >
    >I also used Firebird and it doesn't work there either (I'm sure that's
    >no supprise to any of you).
    >
    >By the way... what is 5% of 4,000,000? Must represent a few customers.
    >
    >Cheers Don
    >
    >pbs wrote:
    >> Chris Hope wrote:
    >>
    >>> Patrick Dunford wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> I was not able to work out why this site does not work with Mozilla.
    >>>> Here
    >>>> is the output from W3's HTML Validator.

    >>
    >>
    >>> [snip] I suggest (as did the other post) that
    >>> you use their contact form to complain it doesn't work, just as I did the
    >>> other day.

    >>
    >>
    >> The trouble is that the contact us form
    >> http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/ContactUs.aspx does not work for Mozilla.
    >>
    >> But there is a email address given on
    >> http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/Legal.aspx?id=100000517 for getting
    >> permission to link to the site. Perhapse the receipint of an email to
    >> that address can forward it to the webmaster. It is
    >> "enquiries.AT.thewarehouse.co.nz" where .AT. is @
    >>
    >> The Site Map http://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/SiteMap.aspx allows for
    >> navigation with none IE browsers.
    >>
     
    GraB, May 2, 2004
    #12
  13. GraB
    > Just done. The links across the top don't work in Opera and nothing
    > works in Firefox. I asked them if they were fishing for MS IE using
    > customers only.


    Probably using Frontpage and it is running on an IIS server
     
    Patrick Dunford, May 2, 2004
    #13
  14. Patrick Dunford

    Steve Guest

    Gurble wrote:
    > On Sat, 01 May 2004 18:27:48 +1200, Steve <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Mind you, non-ie users are in the 5% minority. Sad to say.

    >
    >
    > 15%-20% going by our site stats. And increasing on an almost monthly
    > basis (although our site probably attracts a few more that "know
    > something" about computers, and are not happy just using the status
    > quo of browsers).

    ....from my site stats:
    16,700 unique hits
    3,600 bots
    11,500 exploder/AOL

    Which is just over 10% I sit corrected... last time I looked, it was
    about 5%.

    Good oh!
    >
    > That's one in every 5-8 visitors. That's a pretty big market to be
    > cutting out just because you can't be bothered adhering to basic
    > standards.
    >
    > Oh, and frames have their place. Note that they are also in the w3c
    > standards.
    >
    > 2c

    The main problem with frames is that robots hate them so much, they
    don't crawl your site. That's why I mentioned 'best practices', not just
    standards ( which, we'll both agree have never been considered on this
    site! )

    Steve
     
    Steve, May 2, 2004
    #14
  15. Patrick Dunford

    Don Gould Guest

    Frontpage can be configured to do damb near anything...

    The server that the pages are served off should have nothing to do with
    anything.


    Cheers Don

    Patrick Dunford wrote:
    > GraB
    >
    >>Just done. The links across the top don't work in Opera and nothing
    >>works in Firefox. I asked them if they were fishing for MS IE using
    >>customers only.

    >
    >
    > Probably using Frontpage and it is running on an IIS server
     
    Don Gould, May 2, 2004
    #15
  16. Patrick Dunford

    Don Gould Guest

    Patrick Dunford wrote:

    > I was not able to work out why this site does not work with Mozilla. Here
    > is the output from W3's HTML Validator.


    Did you send a copy of the site validators response to them?

    Here's the response I got from them and a copy of my response in return...

    -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    Hello Simon,

    Thank you for your prompt response.

    Please advise what your developers are telling you this problem will
    cost to fix.

    There are many communities of developers who would assist your team in
    fixing this problem at no real extra cost just so that your site is
    compatible with international standards.

    It sounds to me like you are getting the run around on this issue (which
    should not have been an issue in the first place with proper site design
    and script programming).

    Also, are you aware of the standards validation systems that exist that
    can be used to ensure your site has been programmed to international
    standards? These services are free to anyone to use.

    If I can be of any assistance in helping you get this problem resolved
    more quickly then feel free let me know.

    Kind regards

    Don Gould


    > We apologise that you have been frustrated trying to access
    > our website.
    > Unfortunately, due to limited budget and development time we
    > had to make
    > a judgment call regarding the browser types we developed for. Our
    > developers made the decision to develop for the 'majority'
    > for the time
    > being.
    >
    > However, our developers are looking into developing the site
    > for further
    > browser types. Mozilla and Opera are two of the options they are
    > considering.
    > Kind Regards
    > Simon Peters
    > eMarketing Coordinator
    >
    > The Warehouse Support Office
    > 26 The Warehouse Way, Northcote, Auckland
    > PO Box 33 470, Takapuna, Auckland
    > Phone 09 489 8900 extension 96918
    > Fax 09 489 7444
    > Website www.thewarehouse.co.nz
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Don Gould [mailto:]
    > Sent: Sunday, 2 May 2004 8:20
    > To: Enquiries (New Zealand)
    > Subject: Main Menus on your web site - why don't they work?
    >
    >
    > I've just been having a look at your web site and discovered that I
    > can't navigate around the site due to the menus not working.
    >
    > Is there any reason they don't work?
    >
    > Cheers
    >
    > Don Gould
     
    Don Gould, May 2, 2004
    #16
  17. Patrick Dunford

    AD. Guest

    On Sun, 02 May 2004 15:34:54 +1200, Patrick Dunford wrote:

    >> Oh, and frames have their place. Note that they are also in the w3c
    >> standards.

    >
    > There's a lot of stuff in W3 standards that isn't a great idea. Frames are
    > one of those things, that cause as many problems as they solve.


    Weren't frames included in the specs only because browsers were already
    implementing them? Or maybe not, my memory of stuff back then is getting
    is little fuzzy :)

    Anyway, the best way (in principle) to achieve a frames like effect is to
    use CSS2 fixed positioning. But alas, IE doesn't support it.

    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., May 2, 2004
    #17
  18. In article <>, Collector <> was seen to type:
    (snip)
    >>

    >I did advise them that the site failed in cross browser compatibility,
    >used a copy of IE to use the feedback form, got a reply too!
    >
    >Have trashed it but basically said that budget was limited. I resisted
    >the temptation to reply suggesting the site creators where the
    >limitation not the budget.


    so ... why did you resist ? Bad work is bad work ... isn't it ?

    Bruce

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
    think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
    If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
    I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
    of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
    the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.
     
    Bruce Sinclair, May 3, 2004
    #18
  19. In article <c73gst$kb4$>, Steve <> was seen to type:
    >Gurble wrote:
    >> On Sat, 01 May 2004 18:27:48 +1200, Steve <> wrote:


    >>>Mind you, non-ie users are in the 5% minority. Sad to say.

    >>
    >> 15%-20% going by our site stats. And increasing on an almost monthly
    >> basis (although our site probably attracts a few more that "know
    >> something" about computers, and are not happy just using the status
    >> quo of browsers).

    >....from my site stats:
    >16,700 unique hits
    >3,600 bots
    >11,500 exploder/AOL
    >
    >Which is just over 10% I sit corrected... last time I looked, it was
    >about 5%.


    I thought browers that aren't IE sometimes lie about what they really
    are to ensure that pages work ? Is this not so ? ... and has it ever
    been so ? :)

    Thanks


    Bruce


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
    think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
    If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
    I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
    of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
    the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.
     
    Bruce Sinclair, May 3, 2004
    #19
  20. Patrick Dunford

    Chris Hope Guest

    Bruce Sinclair wrote:

    > In article <c73gst$kb4$>, Steve <> was
    > seen to type:
    >>Gurble wrote:
    >>> On Sat, 01 May 2004 18:27:48 +1200, Steve <> wrote:

    >
    >>>>Mind you, non-ie users are in the 5% minority. Sad to say.
    >>>
    >>> 15%-20% going by our site stats. And increasing on an almost monthly
    >>> basis (although our site probably attracts a few more that "know
    >>> something" about computers, and are not happy just using the status
    >>> quo of browsers).

    >>....from my site stats:
    >>16,700 unique hits
    >>3,600 bots
    >>11,500 exploder/AOL
    >>
    >>Which is just over 10% I sit corrected... last time I looked, it was
    >>about 5%.

    >
    > I thought browers that aren't IE sometimes lie about what they really
    > are to ensure that pages work ? Is this not so ? ... and has it ever
    > been so ? :)


    Opera includes an MSIE tag in the user-agent header as well as the Opera
    version number. I'm sure any half-way decent stats package will be able to
    work out the Opera browsers from the IE ones though, although you do raise
    an interesting point.

    One interesting thing with site stats is that what is true for one site is
    not necessarily true for another, or for the Internet as a whole. My own
    site has a higher percentage of Linux and non-IE users but the content of
    the site is of a more technical nature and in many cases specific to
    non-Windows systems so it is likely these stats are not reflective of the
    Internet as a whole.

    A couple of nights ago I had a look at a couple of NZ based sites that I am
    the webmaster for that get predominantly NZ traffic. One gets about 1000
    unique visitors a day and the other about 500. In both cases, MSIE versions
    5.0 and up accounted for 95% of the visitors.
     
    Chris Hope, May 3, 2004
    #20
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