VOIP over Frame Relay

Discussion in 'Cisco' started by mimiseh, Mar 18, 2005.

  1. mimiseh

    mimiseh Guest

    Hi,
    We are thinking of implementing VOIP and like to know it is a good idea
    to run VOIP over our existing Frame-Relay, hub-spoke infrastructure .
    Thanks.
    ..
     
    mimiseh, Mar 18, 2005
    #1
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  2. mimiseh

    John Smith Guest

    "mimiseh" <> wrote in message
    news:HmF_d.16$...
    > Hi,
    > We are thinking of implementing VOIP and like to know it is a good idea
    > to run VOIP over our existing Frame-Relay, hub-spoke infrastructure .
    > Thanks.


    I've got zero experience of this, in fact I've never even had a cisco job
    but I'll give you the book answer! So long as you use propering queuing
    techiniques I don't see why it would be a problem. Low latency queueing
    (LLQ) is the answer.
     
    John Smith, Mar 18, 2005
    #2
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  3. mimiseh

    Toby Guest

    "John Smith" <> wrote in message
    news:d1f855$u1g$...
    > "mimiseh" <> wrote in message
    > news:HmF_d.16$...
    >> Hi,
    >> We are thinking of implementing VOIP and like to know it is a good idea
    >> to run VOIP over our existing Frame-Relay, hub-spoke infrastructure .
    >> Thanks.

    >
    > I've got zero experience of this, in fact I've never even had a cisco job
    > but I'll give you the book answer! So long as you use propering queuing
    > techiniques I don't see why it would be a problem. Low latency queueing
    > (LLQ) is the answer.

    Just to add onto the above. LLQ is great on point-point connections as you
    will be delivering VOIP as a priority. But with a Frame-relay Hub your VOIP
    traffic also has to contend for it's delivery to the main site from the
    other spokes. Congestion over the HUB sites link is contended from many
    sites on other pvc's and could still degrade VOIP. I.e. In it's basic form
    once frames enter a pvc they are delivered as fast as possible over the
    cloud and in order but once they reach the destination outgoing port of the
    Frame-relay cloud there is no defrentiation between voice traffic and best
    effort data between other sites PVC's.

    To get round this problem some SP's offer a 2 queue option on egress (exit)
    from the cloud. These 2 queues though still do not defrentiate between
    traffic type. Instead they direct traffic from certain PVC's into a
    particular queue. This means you would need 2 PVC's between the hub/spoke
    sites 1 for VOIP and 1 for other traffic. In this situation the frame relay
    cloud would service the high priority (VOIP) queue more often than the
    standard queue on a ratio basis set by the SP I have heard 10:1, 15:1 20:1
    banded about but you would have to ask your SP for their figure if this was
    an option. Also other preferential treatment is given to the VOIP carrying
    PVC's such as priority re-routing in the event of a failure in the cloud and
    possibly other benifits I am not savy to.

    If this method was on offer then LLQ would not be an option as you would
    have to use policy based routing to seperate VOIP traffic onto a seperate
    PVC to gain the advantage and ensure adequate bandwidth over this PVC both
    from your router's and in the frame-relay cloud with appropiate CIR
    settings.

    As you may have worked out this is a major design re-jig (not for the light
    hearted) so I still go along with the testing of basic LLQ as long as you
    have no issue with bandwidth on the Hub site first and only consider this
    method if you have VOIP problems with LLQ.

    Regards

    Toby
     
    Toby, Mar 18, 2005
    #3
  4. mimiseh

    Scooby Guest

    "John Smith" <> wrote in message
    news:d1f855$u1g$...
    > "mimiseh" <> wrote in message
    > news:HmF_d.16$...
    > > Hi,
    > > We are thinking of implementing VOIP and like to know it is a good

    idea
    > > to run VOIP over our existing Frame-Relay, hub-spoke infrastructure .
    > > Thanks.

    >
    > I've got zero experience of this, in fact I've never even had a cisco job
    > but I'll give you the book answer! So long as you use propering queuing
    > techiniques I don't see why it would be a problem. Low latency queueing
    > (LLQ) is the answer.
    >
    >


    I don't see a problem with using it over a frame-relay connection - provided
    you have sufficient bandwidth. Latency is low enough. I had that in place
    a few years ago with T1's and it worked fine. Now all my circuits are >
    fiber based. Yes, use QOS and LLQ is the key to that. Serial lines on the
    routers support Auto QOS, so setup is pretty easy.

    Jim
     
    Scooby, Mar 18, 2005
    #4
  5. mimiseh

    BradReeseCom Guest

    BradReeseCom, Mar 18, 2005
    #5
  6. mimiseh

    John Guest

    When you do VOIP over frame do you still need call manager and ip pone .
    "mimiseh" <> wrote in message
    news:HmF_d.16$...
    > Hi,
    > We are thinking of implementing VOIP and like to know it is a good idea
    > to run VOIP over our existing Frame-Relay, hub-spoke infrastructure .
    > Thanks.
    > .
    >
    >
     
    John, Mar 19, 2005
    #6
  7. mimiseh

    Darren Green Guest

    You wouldn't need Call Manager if the plan was to connect up say 2 x PBX's
    over your WAN for inter-site calls.

    Regards

    Darren

    "John" <> wrote in message
    news:BZM_d.18275$FB6.10296@trndny09...
    > When you do VOIP over frame do you still need call manager and ip pone .
    > "mimiseh" <> wrote in message
    > news:HmF_d.16$...
    > > Hi,
    > > We are thinking of implementing VOIP and like to know it is a good

    idea
    > > to run VOIP over our existing Frame-Relay, hub-spoke infrastructure .
    > > Thanks.
    > > .
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    Darren Green, Mar 19, 2005
    #7
  8. mimiseh

    stephen Guest

    "mimiseh" <> wrote in message
    news:HmF_d.16$...
    > Hi,
    > We are thinking of implementing VOIP and like to know it is a good idea
    > to run VOIP over our existing Frame-Relay, hub-spoke infrastructure .


    it depends.

    1st thing to do is ask your frame relay provider what they recommend - they
    may set their cloud up in a way that you can exploit.

    some one else mentioned you need LLC to give priority to voice in the
    routers, but then you have to sort the frame relay issues.

    if you cant get priority PVCs or priority handling on a single PVC within
    the Frame Relay switch for your VoIP traffic, then you need to make sure
    that the VoIP traffic isnt going to get hit by excessive delay.

    the usual way to do this is to make sure your traffic on the affected access
    lines is not contended
    1. you should shape the aggregate traffic so that the load on the PVC is
    controlled (you dont want a queue building up on the last frame relay switch
    as it exits the cloud)
    2. you should stay within the contracted PVC bandwidth for PVCs carrying
    Voip, so that if packets do get discarded, then it is unlikely to be the
    Voip

    Also you may need to make sure you dont over commit the frame relay
    bandwidth on any access lines used for Voip.

    > Thanks.

    --
    Regards

    Stephen Hope - return address needs fewer xxs
     
    stephen, Mar 19, 2005
    #8
  9. mimiseh

    mimiseh Guest

    If I have a T1 internet access, do I still need a PBX to setup void.
    "Scooby" <> wrote in message
    news:e7881$423b32b8$a22770bd$...
    > "John Smith" <> wrote in message
    > news:d1f855$u1g$...
    > > "mimiseh" <> wrote in message
    > > news:HmF_d.16$...
    > > > Hi,
    > > > We are thinking of implementing VOIP and like to know it is a good

    > idea
    > > > to run VOIP over our existing Frame-Relay, hub-spoke infrastructure .
    > > > Thanks.

    > >
    > > I've got zero experience of this, in fact I've never even had a cisco

    job
    > > but I'll give you the book answer! So long as you use propering queuing
    > > techiniques I don't see why it would be a problem. Low latency queueing
    > > (LLQ) is the answer.
    > >
    > >

    >
    > I don't see a problem with using it over a frame-relay connection -

    provided
    > you have sufficient bandwidth. Latency is low enough. I had that in

    place
    > a few years ago with T1's and it worked fine. Now all my circuits are >
    > fiber based. Yes, use QOS and LLQ is the key to that. Serial lines on

    the
    > routers support Auto QOS, so setup is pretty easy.
    >
    > Jim
    >
    >
     
    mimiseh, Mar 21, 2005
    #9
  10. mimiseh

    Scooby Guest

    "mimiseh" <> wrote in message
    news:NAA%d.5$...
    > If I have a T1 internet access, do I still need a PBX to setup void.


    I'm not really sure what you are asking here.

    First, my recommendations were under the assumption that you are using a
    private frame-relay network. If you are talking about internet based - all
    bets are off. Also, you don't need a PBX, per se, to run voip, but you do
    need a server. Something needs to direct traffic. A Call Manager, pbx, or
    some other type of voip server (SIP) is needed.

    I guess this whole thing brings up the question... Why are you considering
    using voip? It almost sounds more like you are letting the cart drive the
    horse here. Don't implement a new technology just because that is becoming
    the industry standard. Consider it because the solution makes sense based
    on your current setup and needs.

    Jim

    > "Scooby" <> wrote in message
    > news:e7881$423b32b8$a22770bd$...
    > > "John Smith" <> wrote in message
    > > news:d1f855$u1g$...
    > > > "mimiseh" <> wrote in message
    > > > news:HmF_d.16$...
    > > > > Hi,
    > > > > We are thinking of implementing VOIP and like to know it is a good

    > > idea
    > > > > to run VOIP over our existing Frame-Relay, hub-spoke infrastructure

    ..
    > > > > Thanks.
    > > >
    > > > I've got zero experience of this, in fact I've never even had a cisco

    > job
    > > > but I'll give you the book answer! So long as you use propering

    queuing
    > > > techiniques I don't see why it would be a problem. Low latency

    queueing
    > > > (LLQ) is the answer.
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > > I don't see a problem with using it over a frame-relay connection -

    > provided
    > > you have sufficient bandwidth. Latency is low enough. I had that in

    > place
    > > a few years ago with T1's and it worked fine. Now all my circuits are >
    > > fiber based. Yes, use QOS and LLQ is the key to that. Serial lines on

    > the
    > > routers support Auto QOS, so setup is pretty easy.
    > >
    > > Jim
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    Scooby, Mar 21, 2005
    #10
  11. mimiseh

    mimiseh Guest

    Sorry, I did not ask the question in the right way. What I mean is, when the
    voice traffic comes from the remote sites to the hub, can it be routed
    to the PSTN through the internet connection or a separate line will be
    needed to the PSTN.

    "Scooby" <> wrote in message
    news:1dc3b$423f187a$a22770bd$...
    > "mimiseh" <> wrote in message
    > news:NAA%d.5$...
    > > If I have a T1 internet access, do I still need a PBX to setup void.

    >
    > I'm not really sure what you are asking here.
    >
    > First, my recommendations were under the assumption that you are using a
    > private frame-relay network. If you are talking about internet based -

    all
    > bets are off. Also, you don't need a PBX, per se, to run voip, but you do
    > need a server. Something needs to direct traffic. A Call Manager, pbx,

    or
    > some other type of voip server (SIP) is needed.
    >
    > I guess this whole thing brings up the question... Why are you

    considering
    > using voip? It almost sounds more like you are letting the cart drive the
    > horse here. Don't implement a new technology just because that is

    becoming
    > the industry standard. Consider it because the solution makes sense based
    > on your current setup and needs.
    >
    > Jim
    >
    > > "Scooby" <> wrote in message
    > > news:e7881$423b32b8$a22770bd$...
    > > > "John Smith" <> wrote in message
    > > > news:d1f855$u1g$...
    > > > > "mimiseh" <> wrote in message
    > > > > news:HmF_d.16$...
    > > > > > Hi,
    > > > > > We are thinking of implementing VOIP and like to know it is a

    good
    > > > idea
    > > > > > to run VOIP over our existing Frame-Relay, hub-spoke

    infrastructure
    > .
    > > > > > Thanks.
    > > > >
    > > > > I've got zero experience of this, in fact I've never even had a

    cisco
    > > job
    > > > > but I'll give you the book answer! So long as you use propering

    > queuing
    > > > > techiniques I don't see why it would be a problem. Low latency

    > queueing
    > > > > (LLQ) is the answer.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > > I don't see a problem with using it over a frame-relay connection -

    > > provided
    > > > you have sufficient bandwidth. Latency is low enough. I had that in

    > > place
    > > > a few years ago with T1's and it worked fine. Now all my circuits are

    >
    > > > fiber based. Yes, use QOS and LLQ is the key to that. Serial lines

    on
    > > the
    > > > routers support Auto QOS, so setup is pretty easy.
    > > >
    > > > Jim
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    mimiseh, Mar 22, 2005
    #11
  12. mimiseh

    Toby Guest

    "mimiseh" <> wrote in message
    news:92X%d.1$...
    > Sorry, I did not ask the question in the right way. What I mean is, when
    > the
    > voice traffic comes from the remote sites to the hub, can it be routed
    > to the PSTN through the internet connection or a separate line will be
    > needed to the PSTN.
    >


    Even if you have a method Callminder or other Bespoke method of supplying
    signalling i.e. destination PSTN/IP address/codec relationship, along with
    gateways over the Internet to recieve and convert this IP traffic to voice
    from your HUB site. The Internet remains a best effort transport so surely
    you attempts to prioritise have now gone out the window unless your traffic
    is local to a single Internet provider (source and destination) who can
    guarentee this transport and prioritise your VOIP.

    Toby
     
    Toby, Mar 22, 2005
    #12
  13. mimiseh

    Scooby Guest

    "Toby" <> wrote in message
    news:VR00e.678$...
    >
    > "mimiseh" <> wrote in message
    > news:92X%d.1$...
    > > Sorry, I did not ask the question in the right way. What I mean is, when
    > > the
    > > voice traffic comes from the remote sites to the hub, can it be routed
    > > to the PSTN through the internet connection or a separate line will be
    > > needed to the PSTN.
    > >

    >
    > Even if you have a method Callminder or other Bespoke method of supplying
    > signalling i.e. destination PSTN/IP address/codec relationship, along with
    > gateways over the Internet to recieve and convert this IP traffic to voice
    > from your HUB site. The Internet remains a best effort transport so surely
    > you attempts to prioritise have now gone out the window unless your

    traffic
    > is local to a single Internet provider (source and destination) who can
    > guarentee this transport and prioritise your VOIP.
    >
    > Toby
    >
    >


    Well, you really need a couple things in order to accomplish voip. First is
    a traffic cop. For the sake of Cisco, this is a Call Manager or Call
    Manager express. This helps devices to know where to send their calls.
    When phone A wants to call phone B or a PSTN number, the Call Manager will
    tell it how. The second would be a gateway to the PSTN. If you have no
    need to connect to public phones, then you don't need that. But, it will be
    a connection to a legacy pbx, or a router with appropriate ports (PRI, BRI
    or analog). This could be internet provided, or you could provide it
    yourself. But, somehow you need to convert your ip call to the pstn
    network.

    And, what Toby said about the internet. That is what I meant when I said
    that all bets are off if you are talking about sending the calls over the
    internet. You can usually get pretty good sound over the internet, and as a
    Vonage customer I will testify to that. However, you have no control over
    it and may experience periods of poor quality.

    Hope that helps,

    Jim
     
    Scooby, Mar 22, 2005
    #13
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